Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Fountain, Peter (O1999.3) |
| Interviewee | Peter Fountain (PF) |
| Interviewer | Eve Sangster (ES) and Jean Riddell (JR) |
| Date | 26/01/1999 |
| Transcriber by | Jane Page |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O 1999.3
Interviewee: Peter Fountain
Date: 26th January 1999
Venue: 25 West Street
Interviewers: Eve Sangster (ES) and Jean Riddell (JR)
Transcriber: Jane Page
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
ES: I'm speaking to Peter Fountain, whose aunt used to run a school here at 25 West Street. Peter was just saying that he half expected the house still to be permeated by the smell of ancient mutton stew, but, thank goodness, after 50 years that seems to have dissipated. So what was the house like in your day? You say that Miss Fountain had the top room, the attic, converted into a bedroom.
PF: A bedroom and bathroom and she covered the bath over with something so that she could use it as a table I think she must have??. I don't know who the house belonged to, whether it belonged to her, or whether she rented it. It didn't have electricity, so this bedroom was lit by gas, and also had an old gas geyser, which my aunt could never really get the hang of. You used to hear a loud bang and a scream when she lit it up. Also the draining: I think the water used to come down the outside drainpipe with such force, that the drain couldn't take it and it used to go shooting round the back and out onto the pavement; so she always reckoned that everybody in West Street knew when she was having a bath. Anyhow, description of the house as I remember it?
ES: Well, you said she used to have various people staying here
PF: Well, she had different lodgers, I think, you know, it was just accommodation.
ES: Yes
PF: It wasn't a sort of guest house
ES: No, No.
PF: No. There was an old lady called Miss Crawley, who had the room we're sitting in, the kitchen.
ES: Well, yes, we'd call it the kitchen, but I suppose it would have been a morning room.
PF: Well, I think it was the kitchen then, because there was the scullery, where stoves and things were
ES: Yes. When we came there was a built-in stone, I thought it was stone, it must have been brick, I suppose, copper in the corner. Do you remember that?
PF: I remember that
ES: And the remains of a very large, green painted dresser.
PF: Oh God! The dresser
ES: Yes, which is still downstairs in the cellar. Do you have milk?
PF: Yes, please. The room in the front, opposite the schoolroom, was let out; I think I remember, to a lady called Miss Crawley. Now also some of the upstairs rooms were let out, on this side of the house. The main living room was above the schoolroom. The schoolroom being the big room that goes from front to back.
ES: Yes. Do you take sugar?
PF: No, thank you.
ES: So the schoolroom was the room with the French windows.
PF: The room with the French windows.
ES: Yes
PF: And I see, to my joy, the big fireplace is still there or the mantelpiece, marble mantelpiece. Yes, because, when we came to school, I see it's a garage now, but we would come in up the path to those gates and in through the door at the back of the hall.
ES: Yes That's you can see in these old photos that's how .. Well, anyway, that's the door you came through.
PF: That's right, yes, now, what year was this?
ES: That's 1925
PF: Oh 1925
ES: Yes
PF: I was trying to find out when the school opened, and a couple of nights ago I rang, I still have one living link, my uncle, who's very with it, my mother's brother, lives in Cheltenham, and he got fascinated on trying to remember these things, because he used to come and play with my parents. I was born in 1927, and we lived in Currie Street, number 38, I know that's right because it's on my birth certificate.
ES: This is a later one, this is 1931.
PF: Yes, now, I can't remember quite the year when I started, but it was probably 1932.
ES: Mmm. Are any of those people familiar to you?
PF: They're not. Now, this is 1931. I said they're not, and they are. Ah, yes, I was going to mention the school uniform. I see you've got the tie there. This, the caps and ties, and possibly the scarf were supplied by Gravesons.
ES: What colours were they?
PF: As far as I remember it was light blue and light, sorry, light brown and, I think, pale blue. I probably do remember some of these. A tall girl, Marjorie Penny(?) comes to mind. The trouble is now, of course, most of these girls probably have married names. (Marjorie Healey (d. 2012) made an HOHG recording).
ES: Oh, of course.
PF: And it's too late to?
ES: Yes. The person who supplied these photos was Michael Wingate. (38 Queens Road Wingate
PF: Ah yes, I remember the name.
ES: And I think that's him
PF: Yes
ES: He doesn't say, but yes I think that's him, and this one is his brother, David Wingate, and the children here
PF: Yes, they lived at the top of Port Hill I believe.
ES: Oh, I don't know that, as a matter of fact, he's done an interview with us, although we didn't ask much about his schooldays.
PF: No
ES: They live in Queen's Road now, and he married Doreen, from over the road, lived there in (whatever it was) National Yeast Company,
PF: I remember something about Allinson's bread, was that number 12, would it have been?
ES: 12, 14, No 18, the big house opposite has got a garage that is very long. It goes right back into the garden and probably catered for, housing three cars that are end to end, and that was where they kept the yeast.
PF: When I walked, spent about 15 minutes on a nostalgic walk up and down West Street this morning, it strikes me as a real hotch potch of architecture, different buildings, wonderful, because it hasn't been messed around a bit, any new development seems to be at the back going down towards the river, which doesn't interfere with the line of the?.
ES: That's right, and I mean there was obviously some development on the other side, up near the road, but that actually follows the old building lines and you see, did you go down as far as what was Miss McMullen's, 50, which is now I think 52?
PF: I think I did that on Boxing Day.
ES: Yes, well, there are some new houses behind. You can see they're still being built, but in a way, that's a good result for the Street. I mean, they're not very attractive, the houses, but it's only three.
PF: Yes. Well, they'll add to it. They'll meld (blend) in
ES: I think they will. They look enormous, don't they?
PF: They do. Yes.
ES: Did you ever go to Miss McMullen's. Do you remember who lived there when you ?
PF: I don't. No. You see, I was at school between about five and seven. Then I came back from eight 'til ten. Then the school closed in, it must have been, early 1938, I should think. I've been trying to sort this out.
ES: Yes, I've got a Kelly's Directory for 38
PF: My aunt was definitely? She moved to Leamington to look after her sister, Aunt Mary, the owner of 37 North Crescent, which I think is another interest.
ES: Yes. She was still here in 1938, really, which is what you're saying.
PF: I think, one can sometimes use public events to pin-point things, we went down to Leamington to see her, on a day trip, by the train, just after the Munich Crisis had been resolved. Well it wasn't resolved, anyway, but that would have made it September 1938.
ES: Yes
PF: And I went to the Grammar School from here. We were prepared for the entrance exams for either Hertford or Ware. And you know, the pity was, of course, I went in on the last term of the year, and was thoroughly shot down, because there were subjects, which they'd already had two terms of, like algebra and geometry, that we never touched here.
ES: No, I'm sure. Was it a good school? I mean, was it successful in getting its students into ?
PF: Oh yes, I don't think so. I don't remember any failures.
ES: Oh. Because you get the slight idea that with dame schools, anybody could set one up, and you didn't have to have any qualifications just be one page ahead of the people you were teaching. So, I suppose, apart from the 25 West Street, you didn't really have a lot to do with the Street.
PF: No, no. No, we were living in, when I was about 10, we were living in North Crescent and I used to be escorted by two sisters Russell-Pavier, Joan was the younger and Peggy the elder. I saw Joan a few years ago, but I don't know where she's gone now.
ES: That name is familiar, Jean might
PF: Yes, because they lived in North Road, I'd toddle down, and we'd form up, and come through what we called the Castle Bridges, which, of course, came out by the public house.
ES: Which, was that the Black Swan?
PF: Yes . Yes that was a Nicholl’s pub, adjacent to the brewery. Then we'd come up here and Auntie Mog or Auntie Maggie, as I knew her, apart from school, when it was Miss Fountain, anyway, she or Florence Boys, one of the teachers, would be standing duty to get us across the road.
ES: Oh, I see.
PF: We were seen across the road, St Andrew's Street, by a fishmonger there, Brewster. Mr Brewster, he used to see us over St Andrew's Street. It was all well organised, getting us to school. No cars, a nice walk. We'd spend hours, looking for water rats along the little river. I think the original bridge is still there, the first bridge near the church, near St Andrew's.
ES: Yes, it is. In fact that's just recently been tidied up and renovated. It really looks quite nice, although of course, Gascoyne Way, itself, is so hideous that it's difficult to make anything look nice. I was going to ask you, did you have any response to your appeal in The Mercury?
PF: No.
ES: No. I had a letter about Sister Cutts, saying that she was a member of the Church Army.
PF: Ah! The Church Army
ES: Attached to All Saints
PF: Yes
ES: And she wore a grey uniform with a white collar and felt hat.
PF: Oh, jolly good, I've got that written down in my notes.
ES: Right
PF: I'd remembered that.
ES: She was with All Saints up to 1938, you see this is that year again, and died in office. She did live in West Street, and it's likely that she lived with Miss Waller.
PF: She didn't live here, or she lived with Miss Waller after
ES: Well, I had half an idea that Miss Waller lived here.
PF: The name's familiar. I can't really place her, though.
ES: Let me just. Oh listen, Mrs Waller at 71 West Street, but. What else does she say? The date of Sister Cutts's arrival at All Saints is probably somewhere in the church archive, some of which I believe are in the archives to be found at County Hall, and so on. I think it's possible that the Reverend Lewis Fosdyke, brother of the late Edith Fosdyke of West Street may know more about Miss Cutts. The person also most likely (JR arrives). Oh, sorry, just read the bit about ?
Let me restore you.
JR: Have you started yet?
ES: Yes, we have. Is that name familiar, Miss Hildegard?
PF: No
ES: I just wondered
JR: Did you work at Glaxos?
PF: I did, yes.
JR: Oh, Len Green sends his greetings.
PF: Oh, thank you.
JR: He thought it was the same one.
PF: Yes it's all these old'uns get together
JR: Yes, and can you tell me, is John Street still around?
PF: John Street is living in Spain.
JR: Oh, my goodness.
PF: He was living in West Mersea or Mersea Island, but I had a Christmas card from him which gave his Spanish address, and they were enjoying living in Spain.
JR: In Spain, where do they live in Spain?
PF: I don't have the address with me.
JR: No, do you know what area?
PF: I don't
ES: Sugar, Jean?
JR: Yes please.
ES: Here you are. You sit there.
JR: Thanks. I'm fine. I'll sit. Where are you sitting?
ES: No, you sit where I was sitting, because I actually prefer to sit on the stool.
PF: Sister Cutts, I don't know when she died, but she used to correspond with my aunt, and I heard she wanted to get away from this area if she could, because the air raids were getting bad, and I think that was the flying bombs (per Peter Ruffles – believe Sister Cutts at 25 West Street in late 1950’s; when he called for Miss Waller’s paper money on a Saturday Sister Cutts sometimes paid at the door).
ES: Yes
PF: So she would still have been around in the mid forties.
ES: Now, is there anything else you want to say about the house? Did you ever go downstairs in the cellar?
PF: No. That was off limits. Well, you see, I suppose the only parts of the house I knew were the schoolroom, the garden, the room above the schoolroom, the living room, which was also another schoolroom, when the school expanded.
JR: Oh, right.
PF: I should explain, I was at the school twice from about 1932 to 1934, then we moved to Sawbridgeworth for about a year to eighteen months, and then came back. I can partly time this out because I remember the George V's Silver Jubilee celebrations, taking part in them from Miss Morris's school in Sawbridgeworth.
ES: Sorry to interrupt you. Was there a bathroom in those days, above here?
PF: There was a toilet at the top of the staircase.
ES: Yes
PF: I don't think
ES: Oh, well that's probably
PF: there was a separate bathroom
ES: Perhaps after, we can go up. The layout is rather strange. Was that the lavatory that the children used?
PF: Yes, on the first floor.
ES: There was one outside, wasn't there? There's a sort of stable bit.
PF: Oh, yes. We didn't use that.
ES: It was a well.
PF: No, I don't really remember. I remember there was a bit of a yard out there.
ES: Yes.
PF: Adjacent to the old scullery.
ES: Yes.
PF: Incidentally, one thing I remember about that scullery, it had an old, batswing, gas light.
ES: Oh!
PF: A bracket over the sink, which to me, I mean the house didn't have electricity then, it was gas lit. My aunt had a so-called portable radio, one of these big, old, Pye, 5-valve sets, which weighed an awful lot, and had the fret, sunrise fret on it, which seemed to be broken down more often than not.
ES: I suppose the sink was there, in front of that window.
PF: It was. Yes. That was by the window, and the gaslight was above that.
ES: That's right
JR: So this wasn't the kitchen then.
PF: Well, this
JR: Was there a sink in here as well?
PF: This bitY. No, not when I remember.
ES: It had a fireplace, didn't you say?
PF: It was a room where, I think, one or two of the pupils would have midday meals here, those that couldn't get home. Hence the awful smell. School dinners before school dinners.
ES: Yes. I see you say that Mrs Foster was the housekeeper and cook, and she came from Horns Mill.
PF: Horns Mill. I think she died in a house fire, and it wasn't at Horns Mill. She must have moved. It was somewhere in one of those little houses at the back of the War Memorial, just where it joins Castle Street. (next to Ketteridges.Golliwogs for sale 6d in cottage window. Door on street front always ajar, per PR).
JR: We've got that, I think, somewhere on tape.
ES: What about a house fire there?
JR: Yes, yes.
PF: Oh, it's interesting, because these odd bits of memory link up.
ES: I know, it's strange, isn't it, but reassuring too.
PF: Yes.
JR: Did she do knitting? Did she make knitted toys? Mrs Foster.
PF: I don't remember
JR: No, that's another.The person that was in the cottage that died, I think, had knitted toys for sale.
PF: Ah, could have, because probably she'd retired from housekeeping.
ES: I wonder where she lived, because of course in thoseY.oh well, it might have been council housing mightn't it. Probably was.
PF: At Horns Mill
ES: There was council housing there.
PF: Yes, in the early stages.
JR: There are also a lot of Victorian cottages aren't there, along there as well.
ES: Yes, that's right.
PF: There was the old tannery there, smelt rotten if you were coming to Hertford by train. It was your first greeting.
JR: Right
ES: And this Miss Florence Boys. (usually Florrie Boys)
PF: Ah, yes.
ES: She was an assistant teacher, I suppose, and she lived in North Road, do you know anything about her?
PF: She lived in North Road. Well, she lived off North Road. Do you remember where the old Mayflower Hotel was? I think there's a new or fairly recent housing development there. If you're going towards the NorthY.. Between
JR: Grange Close.
PF: The County Hospital and the North Station, on the right hand side. Now, I remember going to her house and the garden went down to the river Beane there. I don't know whether she was a relative or not. The only reason that made me think is that
ES: What, that she might be.
PF: That she might be some sort of cousin or relative. Well, when my grandfather died, they lived at 19 North Crescent, she was at the funeral. I've got all this from 1917 Mercury. He died, I think it was the 13th of June. David Fountain. There had to be an inquest. That's mid-June 1917. She was at the funeral - Taylor, the solicitor was Mr H S Hawkes.
JR: Yes. Was he Fred Fountain?
PF: Fred Fountain would have been his brother. No, he was David Fountain. Fred Fountain I've got somewhere else. He was an enumerator for the 1891 census. I'm pretty sure it's the same person. Now, he had seven daughters, who didn't die of drinking water, and they disappeared without trace, or any records, so, I presume they all married. I lost the…
ES: Yes. The thread of it.
PF: the thread there. It's happening in Canada
ES: But was your, the Fountain family was quite a notable family in the town, because at the museum they speak about a Fountain Trust, Bequest, something
PF: I don't know about that. I must go to the Museum.
ES: Ask Rosemary Bennett
PF: Rosemary Bennett, yes.
ES: When I said about it, she belongs to our Oral History Group, so when I said that you'd got in touch, she said "Oh", and I said you had lived in North Road, "Oh yes" she said "and there is a Fountain something", but what, I can't recall.
PF: Now, I think they owned several houses in the town.
ES: Probably that, then.
PF: I know they owned 37 North Road. That was why we had to get out, because Aunt Mary wanted to realise the money, I think to buy herself a place in Bennington, a new house. I don't know where she was living at that time, probably rented. And I presume number 19 belonged to my grandfather. He had a house. The entrance, the original entrance was that long drive that went up to the Grammar School.
ES: Oh
PF: On the left hand side
ES: What in Pegs Lane, it wasn't Pegs Lane
PF: No, not Pegs Lane.
ES: What went then from Pegs Lane to
PF: Well, Pegs Lane on the corner of Pegs Lane, it must be opposite, what I see this morning, is a camera shop or, used to be a cycle repair place.
JR: Computer centre.
PF: Yes, computer place. There was a pub opposite.
ES: The Gladstone.
PF: The Gladstone. I always called it The Chequers, I don't know why. Yes, it was the Gladstone. That was the corner of Pegs Lane. I was trying to sus it out this morning.
ES & JR: Yes
ES: But how did. I mean, if Pegs Lane comes down like that and this is the Grammar School, and that's the long drive. Pegs Lane comes down to Castle Street, well where did that long drive come to, or did it come down to Castle Street?
PF: It came down to Castle Street, yes.
ES: Oh, I see, crossing the line
PF: Thoroughly intersected, I remember it seemed to be a straight, almost a straight line.
ES: So, it probably took the same line as the underpass.
PF: Yes.
ES: It probably comes out opposite the Castle
PF: That would have been, yes, opposite the Castle and then close to the pub and come up through the Castle Grounds there.
JR: There is a house there now, its going to be redeveloped.
PF: An old house, and I think that may have belonged to the family.
JR: That one.
ES: Well, the big house, you don't mean the big house where the Andrews used to live, which is 25 Castle Street?
PF: I'm not sure.
ES: No, was it a big house?
PF: I never went in it. I think it probably was not belonging to the Fountains when I was growing up.
ES: No.
JR: If you stand looking up towards the Grammar School, and you've got the drive in front of you, was the house on the right hand side or the left hand side?
PF: The left.
ES: Well, that does sound like the Andrews
JR: Yes, that does sound like 25, unless there was another property in between
PF: It was in line. You looked up, and you saw the lodge.
ES: You see, 25 is a very big house. (Andrews extended family lived at no. 25 until 1950’s at least (?))
JR: Yes
ES: And it's 6 or 8 bedrooms at least, into downstairs. It had a Miss Andrews, William Archer. I wonder if that was the William Archer thatY
JR: Could be the descendant.
ES: Yes, Harry Inman
PF: Harry Inman, well heY
ES: Sergeant-major Inman
JR: He was at the lodge, wasn't he?
PF: He was at the lodge, yes.
ES: And then it goes.. Oh! Hertford Grammar School, Thomas Bunce M.A, headmaster.
PF: Would be, yes, he was headmaster for a long time.
ES: Did you know where he lived, in yourYbecause that, according to this, is where he lived? All those people lived at 25, 33 was a beer retailer, so that's probably where the pub is now, or possibly.
JR: Did you find them in the ? What year was it when she sold the house?
ES: 1938
PF: 38. I'm not sure whether it was her house or not.
JR: It was rented possibly.
PF: I don't know. The Fountains gradually sold their properties off. There were 5 girls and 3 boys.
ES: Now, according to this, there was Albert Fountain, 11 Cromwell Road, Charles Fountain, 88 North Road.
PF: He was my uncle.
ES: Harry Fountain,
PF: My uncle
ES: ? Cottage, Market Street, Miss Fountain, West Street. There was no Fountain in Castle Street.
PF: No, I think that's…
ES: It actually sounds as though it was 25 Castle Street
PF: It sounds like it.
ES: Yes, but, I mean that could be sort of checked
PF: Yes, I made the mistake of not following the census records through. I just covered All Saints ward. I should have covered St Andrews, but at that point, I hadn't realised the North Road connection.
ES: I wonder about. What we haven't done is to say, register, when he was born, and so on, a bit of biography.
PF: Right
ES: When were you born, what date?
PF: 1927, 25th September.
ES: And where were you born?
PF: 38 Currie Street. My mother always said I was born at home, but we didn't live there that long. I' ve been trying to sort out with an uncle, my mother's brother, who lives in Cheltenham, exactly when they moved out of Currie Street, which, I think, must have been a rented house. Moved into, I think, 51 Bengeo Street, opposite what used to be the Post Office, and, yes, I identified that. I've still got some of the garden furniture, which has moved round with the family from there, and lived there. We had the Miss Hucks, who I think were there. My uncle confirmed they were the schoolteachers, Mercy and Hepzibah, were their names. Wonderful names.
ES: And where did they operate?
PF: I don't know, unless it was at the bottom of Port Hill (no. 7)
JR: I don't know which house, but it was definitely the bottom of Port Hill, because somebody else I knew, John Summers-Gill, I think he went there.
ES: And was that a dame school?
JR: Yes. The Reverend Philip Turnbull went there, as well, I think. I think he went there for a bit. A lot of boys seemed to go to these private schools, surprisingly.
PF: Yes
JR: You'd think that the girls would go, but the boys went to the dame schools, because I think the majority of pupils here seemed to be boys, weren't they?
PF: Yes. Was it in those days of chauvinism, that the boys, if the money wasn't that good in a family, the boys were bought the education.
ES: Yes. Well, I suppose it partly depends what you think of the sort of education they got at these schools. I mean, Peter was saying in actual fact they were prepared for grammar school (not necessarily scholarships), and he doesn't remember any failures, so perhaps the education that was provided was better than we tend to think. In some ways you think of them, dame schools, as being little more than baby sitters.
PF: Mmm
ES: But hers was probably a good training
PF: It probably varied from school to school. Here, if I remember, it was virtually, almost, a one to one, you know, the attention you got. I don't think I got any special attention.
ES: Have you got any brothers and sisters?
PF: Not living, no.
ES: But , how many, you were one?
PF: I had one brother, who I never knew. My father was married in Canada about 17 years beforehand, and this brother went to Australia, and was killed in World War II in Italy. I had fun and games digging that out when I was in Canberra. I suddenly saw this Fountain name on a war memorial in Malta. It was R.E.R, which are rather unusual initials. I'll follow it up, and I did, but I never knew him.
ES: But, you say your father married in Canada, but you were, it was, a Hertford family.
PF: Yes. What happened was my father and his brother, George, younger brother, George, went to Canada, about the turn of the century. I think quite a few men were sent out to the Commonwealth, Colonies then, to do a bit of farming, and the Canadian government gave you, I think it was 460-no they gave you a certain acreage a large square, it was 160 acres of land, and if you'd broken it in within a given time, it was about 5 years, I think, you got the deeds to it. The two brothers worked this. My father didn't talk about it. I did this with my mother, she lived to be 95 Anyhow, he got home about three times, and then came home for World War I. He volunteered. Anyway he survived it of course, but never went back to Canada. Now, family history is a little bit dicey around here. I assume his first? I know she died of tuberculosis, but my uncle was married out in Canada, eventually they had two daughters and the farm still exists there.
ES: And what brought them back, your father back to Hertford?
PF: Well, his original home. He joined the Hertfordshire Yeomanry and came back and never really left. I think he worked for Simson either Simson Pimm or Simson Shand. Tell you who could tell you that, somebody I think is on your list, Reg Purkis. He knew my parents before they were married, and they were both working. Now it was the one, which was by the War Memorial, which is, I think, the Job Centre.
ES: Yes.
PF: And that was the one they worked at.
ES: And is that where they met?
PF: Yes, because my mother was from Cheltenham.
JR: He did say a bit about Simsons, on his tape. He didn’t say the actual date, but he told me that it started as Simson Shand I think and then went to Simson Pimm, in that order, I believe, but he didn’t actually tell me the dates, so we couldn’t
PF: Now this could have been when he, as a matter of fact, I was sitting next to him on a coach, I was on a holiday to Scarborough last November, and I talked to him quite a lot because I was getting interested in this, told him what I thought of Hertford Town Band
ES: Not much.
PF: Not much, dreadful.
JR: At least it was an effort, wasn’t it?
PF: It was, yes.
JR: They hadn’t got the men
PF: There wasn’t much discipline
JR: Had it been disbanded? It never came back. Well it was quite active wasn’t it, because he was in it.
ES: What, Reg?
JR: Yes
PF: Harry Harman, who used to keep the pub, the one in Balfour Street. He was the prime mover, but I don’t think he exerted much discipline, in other words, you know, you never knew who was going to turn up. You got an odd balance of..
ES: Were you in it?
PF: No, no I never
ES: Did you have music at Miss Fountain’s?
PF: She taught the piano, but she never taught me. We had singing, I suppose. We never went in for music seriously. Although she was quite keen, she had a collection of gramophone records, mainly operatic.
ES: I assume she provided a very good ?
PF: Oh yes.
ES: Michael Wingate
JR: We've had Michael Wingate on tape, and his wife, Doreen. He didn't mention he came here, though.
ES: No, he had told me. I haven't actually written it down yet. Well, is there anything else you want to say about this house, or West Street, before we move on to North Road?
JR: Well, have you? I don't quite know how much you said before I came in. Have you been through essentials and basic things?
ES: Yes, I think we have. I mean, it really was only this house.
PF: Yes
ES: Not West Street itself.
PF: Yes
ES: Did you have any friends in West Street?
PF: No
ES: You didn't
PF: No
ES: You didn't make friends with any of these little boys, did you? that you
PF: Well, we had tea parties and things
ES: Oh yes.
PF: Robert Cubbins (Gubbins?). I think the Cubbinses. World War II was a big separation time. You lost track of people and never really picked up again afterwards.
ES: Yes
JR: Did you? most of the children that came here then, came in from other areas. There weren't any children coming in from West Street itself?
PF: I don't think there were any very local ones, no. I think Ware Road seemed to be a ?. There was Doreen Gazey, she lived in Ware Road, Arthur Bacon, I think he must have lived down there, I think. (Doreen Brazier?)
ES: You haven't ? You have written Arthur Bacon, oh, yes, Arthur Bacon, but not Doreen?
PF: Gazey. I thought
JR: I don't remember that name. Was BaconY
ES: Gazey G A Z I E R, Gazier? Doesn't matter.
JR: Gazey, was it?
PF: I think it was Gazey, yes.
JR: E Y, probably.
ES: Oh, I see.
JR: Was the Bacon family, the family that were the builders, were they?
PF: Yes.
JR: Were they also landlords and did they have quite a bit of money?
PF: I think they must have developed quite a bit of money.
JR: Yes.
PF: They lived up Queen's Road in a big, old bungalow.
JR: Right
PF: And I don't know where Arthur lives now, last heard of at Cottered, I think.
ES: Not Gazeley, G A Z E L E Y, from Gosselin Road?
PF: No, no, she lived in Ware Road, I remember that, I remember the birthday parties.
ES: Yes. How did West Street strike you in those days? I mean, you'd say now coming into it would think it was quite a posh road,
PF: Yes
ES: Wouldn't you, despite the cars and so on, but how did it strike you then, or perhaps you weren't?
PF: I wasn't really aware. I remember Maggie Nicholls from the Nicholls Brewers, she was a friend of my aunt's.
ES: Do you want to just switch that off?
PF: That's the eldest sister, Aunt Alice.
ES: This is a photo of?
PF: A handsome, young teenager.
ES: That's you, is it?
PF: That's me
ES: Who is this?
PF: That's the eldest aunt, Auntie Alice
ES: And where was this taken? Oh, Leamington, right.
PF: 74 Watton Road.
ES: Yes, have you got any other photos that are relevant?
PF: Well, I think this one might have been taken in your garden, looking from the top of the steps. There's a line goes across there, there used to be.., they used to play badminton a lot, and I think that might be the net.
ES: Oh yes, yes.
PF: It's a bit deceptive. It's not a particularly.
ES: That looks like our dodgy lawn.
PF: I think that lawn got a lot of use from us charging round on it.
ES: Yes, that's right.
PF: That was our play area. One thing with the education, there was quite a lot of religious education. It was a very Christian based ??
ES: And did Sister Cutts provide that mostly?
PF: Mostly Auntie Maggie, Sister Cutts on occasions she would come in.
ES: And what was this, sort of readings from the bible?
PF: Bible stories really, I mean, it was at young child level. She tried hard to get us to go to children's services at All Saints, once a month, sometimes succeeded, but not very often.
ES: And is that where you went to Sunday School?
PF: No, I didn't go to Sunday School. Father spared me that. He'd had such a rotten time. I think he was made to go to church twice every Sunday and Sunday School, when he was a boy, so I got spared that one.
ES: Well, Jean, do you want to ask about North Road?
JR: No, I don't want to be too anxious.
ES: No, this is part of it, isn't it?
JR: Oh, right, that's lovely.
ES: Keep an eye on that, won't you, because I can't quite hear it.
JR: Yes. This is 37. I'm looking at a photograph, of the time, I suppose, is that the thirties?
PF: I think I might have taken that in the fifties. I really developed an interest in photography, well, before the war, and then you couldn't get the film or anything. I became a photographer in the army
JR: Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt
ES: No I'd love you to.
JR: I was looking actually, I can see that's 37, but next door.
ES: Which one?
JR: This one
ES: Does that bit belong to it?
JR: No that's next door. But this house next door, 35 and 33 that's joined on altogether, they've now got these castellations on them, but they're not there, are they? Or am I?
PF: I think they have.
JR: They have. They're just a bit masked, perhaps.
ES: They're very strange really.
PF: 37 is a sort of tucked in. People called the Wiggintons lived at I think, 35, yes.
JR: No, wasn't it 41, the end one, on Cross Lane.
PF: I got a crossed line there. We left there, you see, when I was 5, when we moved to Sawbridgeworth. 5 or 6 I would have left North Crescent..
JR: Right
PF: But say something about Maisie Ditton.
JR They came after you, didn't they?
PF: Yes, I didn't know that at the time.
ES: That was in the same house?
JR When you said 37, I thought "Well, if he lived there in the thirties, so did Maisie Ditton", who was also- this has explained it. You left there for Sawbridgeworth. They must have taken over the tenancy.
PF: I think they did. I didn't know this. I might even have been in the army at the time. I was chatting to her in the shop, you know they had the shop in St Andrew's Street
JR: Yes
PF: And she was asking me if I knew the place was haunted. Had I ever seen anything.
JR: Yes
PF: The answer was no, I didn't know the place was haunted. I did remember an odd incident. I mean, when you're about 4 or 5, fact and fantasy entirely get mixed up. I used to occupy a small bedroom at the top of the staircase. I've got a recollection that the staircase went straight up and then swung round to the right to the big front bedroom and the bathroom or the lavatory. I don't think we had a bath there. I woke up one night, gave them hell. I could see flames and a dog sitting framed in the door and I yelled blue murder, and thought nothing more of it. The point is, I remember this. I think my father came and calmed me down, and after that I tended to sleep in one of the other rooms.
ES: Surely, isn't that, what do you put that down to, I mean, wasn't that a haunting?
PF: Well, I didn't know anything about it for years afterwards. Some planted in my mind.
JR: Could I just stop you for a minute?
Tape ends [Jean thinks there was more to this interview]