Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Chamberlain, Trevor joined by Elaine (O2015.6) |
| Interviewee | Trevor (TC) and Elaine Chamberlain (EC) |
| Interviewer | Peter Ruffles (PR), Eddie Roche (ER) |
| Date | 14/08/2015 |
| Transcriber by | Stephen McEnally |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording No: O2015.6
Transcript Title: Trevor Chamberlain joined by Elaine Chamberlain
Interviewees: Trevor (TC) and Elaine Chamberlain (EC)
Interviewers: Peter Ruffles (PR), Eddie Roche (ER)
Date: 14th August 2015
Transcribed and edited by: Stephen McEnally (using Otter.AI for initial transcript)
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
Both the recording and subsequent transcript are unusual by HOHG standards. Initially, the intention was to interview Trevor Chamberlain about his life, work and art in Hertford. This morphed into a much broader discussion/conversation involving his wife, Elaine, and the interviewers Peter and Eddie. The discussion covered a large number of topics of interest to all the participants including, for instance, rose growing. The interview/discussion lasted some 2 1/2 hours, and the transcript covers those areas directly relevant to the subject of Hertford, omitting chats which - though interesting - are 'off-topic'.
Editor’s footnotes at end of transcript. The transcript begins 5 minutes into the recording.
PR: But I ought to just remind, well, remind the listeners, that we have Eddie Roche [Footnote 1] here, a former member of the Oral History Group for a long, long time and museum curator in his own right, as well as associations with Hertford Museum. And we're talking this afternoon, which is 14th August 2015, to Trevor Chamberlain, famous son of Hertford, internationally known. But he's going to talk about his life here in the early years as well as anything else he happens to think of.
So, you were actually born in, in Hertford, were you?
TC: In Hertford County Hospital. And after that, as a baby, I went to live in Port Hill in the top cottage on the left, just past the iron gates, number 83, now gone, which has been demolished together with the adjoining one, I think. So that's, that's not there now. So, I was there for about a year, or so. I can't obviously remember that [pauses to think] Then we went to Duncombe Road, 100, Duncombe Road. And I lived there for 28 years.
PR: When you say ‘we’?
TC: Well, we consisted of my mother and father, and my younger brother who’s Brian. And he was, he is four years younger than me. And, and we lived in 100 Duncombe Road, as I say, and grew up and went to school from that address.
PR: So, would it have been Bengeo School, next to the church?
TC: Well, initially, it would have been - er - Bengeo Infants School, which was tucked behind that school, accessible via Trinity Grove. A little twitchell -
PR: Yes!!
TC: - which ran from there, so -
PR: It’s still there, the twitchell?
TC: Probably is, yes. And we, we went to school in that little room there. Miss [pauses to think] Now what was the name? [pauses to think again] Miss Walker was the teacher.
PR: Ah!
TC: And she lived in Church Rd. and eventually married Mr. Peet - er - Bill Peet, the School Attendance Officer.
PR: Ah! He often gets a mention!1
ER: He does, doesn’t he!
TC: Yes, indeed. Yes, so until it was time to go up to the Junior School. That's where I started [thinks] moving up to the Junior School, I went into Tilly Williams’ class, Miss Williams. She was a strict authoritarian, really. She ruled by fear. She was very well-known [pauses] and - er - I didn't like my school days mainly because of that.
PR: She lived in Duncombe Rd, didn’t she?
TC: Pardon?
PR: She lived in Duncombe Rd on the opposite side to you?
TC: That's right. She lived almost opposite the [*** indistinct] [pauses to think again] [PR recalls she lived at 23 Duncombe Rd.2]
ER: Yeah, so did she later marry, Trevor?
TC: She never married. No, she -
ER: So, a woman of her repute. Probably, that was best avoided through life.
TC: I’m sure that she frightened all the men off. She lived there with her sister. An unmarried sister. The two of them. She was a nice, nice lady, she was.
PR: Someone once told us - sorry interrupting - that it was the duty of - at their time they were older than you, but at their time at the school, under Miss Williams - that they had to - two people had to go to her gate and escort her to school. That's why remember the location of where she lived. But you weren't - ? [the escort duty is also mentioned in humorous detail in recording no 0 1992.4 Olaf Howard Rollins]
TC: I don't remember that.
PR: It may have been a slight exaggeration. It possibly happened once or something.
TC: But then, of course, going up, moving up to the next class. The headmaster, the headmaster's class, really. And he was somebody named Mr. Bottomley. And he was there for a while, but left whilst I was in that class. And Mr. Johnson came. He was the new Master. At the same time, we had evacuee boys [pauses to think] from London, from, I’m not sure where. Bethnal Green or somewhere like that [likely to have been Belmont Rd School, Hornsey] And their teacher accompanied them. Somebody, somebody called Mr. Floyd [spelling?] So that was my school in Bengeo.
ER: So, did you share the School with these evacuees or did they amalgamate the children into - ?
TC: They amalgamated.
ER: So, you had one class?3
TC: That's right
ER: Unlike the Grammar School, which shared the School, morning and afternoon. They were separate identities?
TC: No, they were integrated into the class as ordinary class members.
PR: So Mr. Johnson. There is a Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, both in education, living in New Rd. In a bungalow on the, on the left. [PR recalls it being No 45]
TC: Now A N C Johnson, his initials were.
PR: Ahh!
TC: And his wife was a teacher, as well.
PR: Yes
ER: Could be those people.
PR: Yes. Could be. I was their paperboy. I remember. I remember the initials. Because that’s very distinctive -
TC: Don't know why I remember that, but you do.
PR: So off to Mr. Stalley? [Footnote 2]
TC: No.
ER: This is interesting this bit, isn’t it Trevor.
TC: Time came, time came to take the entrance exam for the, for the grammar school. And I took it. This is about 1944, I think. I took it and passed and it went through to interview confronted by three or four interviewers. Quite intimidating actually. And anyway, I failed the interview. [pauses] and I took the exam again, passed, went to the interview. Got intimidated and failed again. So, they wouldn't, they didn't have me. So, I went to Ware Central School.
ER: PR: Ahh!
ER: Was that a choice, Trevor? Because rather than going to the Cowper School? It was a sort of halfway, wasn’t it?
TC: Sort of, yes. That's right. Exactly. It was between the Elementary School and the Grammar School. Yes.
ER: That was at Ware, in Bowling Rd, wasn’t it?
TC: Yes, I went to Ware. Travelled to Ware every day on the bus. It had its plus side. All the Grammar School girls travelled on the same bus [general laughter] which was quite enjoyable. But -
ER: And you were well fed, there weren’t you?
TC: I was well fed because, certainly they had school meals, but my aunt, who lived in Ware, in Coronation Road, she offered to give me school meals. Well, not school meals but lunch every day. So, I was happy to try and get along to her house every day and have a very good meal every day rather than school meals.
ER: And did you enjoy your time at Ware Central?
TC: I grew to enjoy it. I didn't really like my school days.
ER: You don’t seem to have liked primary school and not too sure about your secondary school.
TC: That’s right
ER: It was at Ware, though, that you got into, was your starting into art, wasn't it?
TC: Yes, it was
ER: Mr. Wright. [Alfred Wright was a distant relative of TC. They shared an uncle called Jack Brazier and Wright took TC under his wing]
TC: That's right, that's right. Although I'd been to school in Ware for a short time before that when my father went into the army. He left obviously my mother and myself and brother, Brian, in Bengeo. And my mum was upset about him leaving for the War and all that. So, she decided she would take us to live with his aunt for a while, in Ware. And I went to Musley School for - for - [thinks] umm - I’m not sure - several months.
PR: Is that - that's at the top of the hill?
TC: Top of the hill, yeah. It’s still there. And the headmistress’s name was Miss Want.
PR: Ahh! I have met Miss Want. She was a friend of Nora Turnbull [Miss Nora Turnbull, former Headmistress of St. Andrew’s JMI School in Hertingfordbury Rd] who lived next door to me when I was growing up. In retirement. I think she was - was she called Grace? I can't remember.
TC: Anyway, I was only there for a few months. But I tended to play truant a bit.
[general chuckling]
ER: Oh Trevor! [**** indistinct]
PR: Well, you would if you were disenchanted. I wonder what on earth they could have been looking for - jumping back a moment to the interview at Hertford Grammar - I mean, what, what would have been the criterion that you didn't - well, tick, was it?
TC: I think, certainly, I’d have been intimidated by this, this row of intense people.
PR: Yes.
TC: And I tended to be a bit slow in answering, I think. I probably thought a bit before I answered. I didn't come out with a snappy answer.
PR: They got it wrong. But it's interesting to know in which, I mean, in what way they didn't, they failed to read the person.
ER: ‘cause, this happened a lot, didn’t it, Peter? Because in my experience of Hertford Grammar School, after the first year, you lost one or two and you gained one or two. Boys left. I remember one boy left within weeks of going to Hertford Grammar School. He was a former St Andrew’s boy, actually, who I knew and he just didn't settle at the Grammar School. And Kenny -
PR: Probably Kenny. Was it Kenny Rose?
PR & ER: Yeah, yeah.
ER: Yeah. So, when he went to the Cowper School, he blossomed. It just doesn't suit and, as you say, the interview was a bit intimidating. I know. I went for interview and Mr Bunt [Thomas Bunt, Headmaster of Hertford Grammar School 1931-1956] was sat behind his desk, with perhaps a governor, and perhaps a senior master each side of him. And they grilled you. And I can understand, ‘cause I've always found Trevor to be a person who thinks before he speaks. And for good reason that you don't always want to give a quick answer.
PR: It’s intriguing isn’t it, really. And what - and the other big changes - I mean, can you imagine the staff intensity being applied to an individual 10-year-old child today? Twice! Extraordinary way of, you know, change in the -
ER: It’s for somebody at County Hall to decide who goes to where - what school, don’t they now. It’s a totally different system.
PR: There’s no interview,
ER: No interview at all.
TC: But I remember. I remember from the Central School, there were a couple of pupils there who went to the Grammar School from the Central School. One, an older boy than me, but - um - and one who lived in Hertford. So, there was this crossover, you know.
PR: Can we, could we be a bit irregular in the time order, somehow, and jump to somewhere near the present and paint the Trevor Chamberlain we all know and, I’d like to say, and love but - [general laughter and chuckles] - and then fill in the gaps in between. Your reputation goes beyond Hertford and into the national and international.
TC: It seems to. I mean [pauses] certainly, the books that I've done have helped to promote me quite well, really. And, of course, with the advent of the internet - although I don't have it - that has, sort of [pauses] given me some publicity abroad. People, you know, have written to me, from America, India, places like that.
PR: Yes. And well-known in Hertford just to go to route here. One of those who collects Chamberlains is Lord Salisbury. [Robert Cecil]
TC: Well, yes, that's right.
PR: Well, that is, really.
TC: He's got a good half a dozen.
PR: Yes.
TC: Yes. So that's rather nice, because -
ER: [interrupts] It’s alright! I was smiling, Trevor. I’m just counting up how fortunate I am that I’m lucky enough to have a number of Trevor’s paintings -
TC: You’ve probably got more than that!
ER: In my, in my sitting room and in my dining room, I think there are one or two. And we followed Trevor, my wife and I, when I was working. And when I had perhaps had a good year, I'd go to the Art Society evening. And we knew Trevor, we knew of him, we know him better now. But we knew of him. And we felt that he was someone whose work was worth patronizing. And so, it has come about.
PR: Most people go to the Art Society show to see if they can afford -
TC: And decide they can’t!
PR: Unless they’re really tempted. Trevor will know when my temptation got - has got the better of me, I’m very pleased to say. So, apart from the widespread fame, the doyen of the Hertford Art Society, being a member and obviously a leading light for a long time.
TC: I wasn't an inaugural member. The Art Society was inaugurated in 1953. But I exhibited in 1954, I think, as a non-member. But as soon as I came out of the Army in ’55, I joined. And have been a member ever since.
ER: Did that joining the Art Society - I know that you were already painting and had been painting for a long time - but joining the Art Society, you have these evenings, I believe, a Tuesday evening, when you all get together, either paint outside or indoors. Was that helpful to you?
TC: Yes [said slowly and thoughtfully] It's a good discipline, actually. Umm [thinks] and they run a varied programme each season. And it's always been a very good Society. Very stimulating. And you get a lot of other people there painting and exchange views and methods and all that. So, it's been quite fruitful, really.
ER: And friendship, of course.
TC: Oh, yes. Yes, there's a strong, strong social -.
ER: [interrupts] because you are also in one or two other groups?
TC: Yeah. I’m in one or two professional art societies, Royal Institute of Oil Painters, the Royal Society of Marine Artists, Wapping Group of Artists. They’re the main ones, really.
PR: So, I expect most of our listeners - we always try and think fifty years ahead - but I suspect a listener fifty years ahead will be able to say, ‘Ah, Trevor Chamberlain, yes recognizable’. But could you describe what is your painting style and how would you? I thought as I was coming here, I might say something corny, like this interview with you is, is not precise on dates - we don’t have to worry about that - and we can be impressionistic, as it were, in the talk, and just recall those things using a sort of artistic tone. But what are you best known for, as a painter, in style?
TC: Well, I think [pauses to reflect] the use of atmosphere and light in my paintings. I suppose I’ve painted sometimes in an impressionist way. The good, sort of, foundation underneath, a good drawing foundation. More so obviously interested in,
are still interested in, architecture. So that features quite well in my pictures. But it's, the main driving force, I think, is certainly the love of the countryside, the atmosphere and the effects of light, which is very varied. [long pause] I think that’s, that’s what really sums it up.
PR: And has that - obviously a huge amount of natural talent, but the honing of it - has that developed noticeably over the years?
TC: Yes, it's a - yes, you evolve, really. I mean, looking back on some of the paintings I did 40 years ago, you can see an obvious change. But at the time, you're not striving to do something different all the time. You’re just striving to [pauses] paint better, really [pauses again to reflect] and you don't, you don’t really quite know which way it tends. It's only when you look back over a period, you can see that development, that change, which occurs naturally, I think.
PR: What is the stimulus in you? Why do you paint today? What’s the point?
TC: It’s certainly a compulsive thing. And, I mean, I look around me every day and think, wonderful light, wonderful cloud patterns, wonderful shadows and colour.
ER: You've only really got to look out this lovely window here and look across the marsh and you’ve got a scene there, that changes. I mean, we've got one of yours of the marsh and it's an absolute treasure. The colours that are in it and the light and everything. I would think it’s something that Trevor would have painted probably early evening or -
PR: Do you, do you have others in mind when you're painting?
TC: What?
PR: People, other people. Are you painting to convey, to share? Or are you satisfying yourself?
TC: I'm basically painting to please myself, to capture something. And, and, I hope that it speaks to other people what I’ve done, you know, and conveys that feeling - that appeals to me, really.
ER: It's a singular thing, isn't it, Trevor?
TC: Yeah.
ER: Because, again, having been away once or twice with Trevor, he'll take his paints and his easel with him. And we just leave you in the middle of nowhere because he's seen this - I hope this is true, Trevor - he's seen something and he’ll set his board up. And he’ll say ‘I'll see you at one o'clock’ wherever we were gonna have some lunch. And it, I sometimes think, Cor! [exclamation of surprise] we’re leaving Trevor there all on his own. But you've never seemed to mind, Trevor, being on your own.
TC: I like to be alone when I'm working. Tucked away somewhere. People take an interest. OK, that's alright. But the minute they start talking [chuckles]. But I tend to be a bit rude with people when they start talking. I usually put a brush between the teeth, like that, so I can't speak and just grunt when they say something and they get, they get the message and go away.
ER: But that's not being too -
PR: A nice way of telling them to move on. And materials? What, how, the use of different sorts of paint over the years. Has that, have you moved, have you changed favourites? Or do you always mix it a bit?
TC: Well, I, I use generally produced paints from various firms. I don't have a really favourite firm for making or producing paints. My Winsor and Newton have gone downhill a bit since they’ve been bought by the French [general laughter] And they produced these paints from France, and some was produced in China as well. So, I've gone off Winsor and Newton a bit. But there are still other manufacturers of paint.
ER: I think what Peter's getting to is, your preference is to, say, between oils and watercolour?
TC: OK.
ER: But you still do the two?
TC: I still do the two [reflective pause] I, it’s very much the subject, or the time of day, conditions, which dictates whether I use oil or watercolour. Oils are more adaptable, I think, for all conditions. And watercolours, you rely on fairly even, good conditions, Certainly, you can't paint watercolours in the rain, whereas you can with oils. And -
ER: [interrupts] - of course, temperature would affect wouldn’t it. The coldness?
TC: I was just, I was just going to say. Early morning, late evening, probably more ideal for watercolours because you haven’t got the same temperature. You get to midday; it's getting too warm for watercolours. It dries too quickly. I need to use watercolours in a fluid state. Very wet initially. And so, so the conditions, the weather, climatic conditions dictate very often whether I use oil or watercolour. Sometimes it's purely subject matter. You just look at a subject and think well that's obviously more a subject, you know - all those darks, rich colours.
PR: So, you're walking along with Eddie and the others and you suddenly see a spot you want to stay in and you bid them goodbye?
TC: Yeah, that's right.
PR: So, now what's the method? What, what's the - how do - what does someone spending the duration looking over your shoulder see you do, process wise?
TC: Well, it happened in Froggart didn’t it? [addressing Eddie] You were going round the top of this hillside. And you were going on somewhere. And I thought, I'd like to paint here really, because it's not the part that I knew very much, and I've never painted much in Derbyshire. So, I sent you on your way. And I said, ‘Pick me up on the way back’.
ER: I must say that this spot in Froggart was right to the top of a ridge. Is that right, Trev? And it had a magnificent view. You could see right across to the left, the top of Chatsworth. Almost into Yorkshire. It was Grindleford and that part of the world. You had a very wide expanse. But a lot of people coming along with dogs and stopping and -
TC: But I got down behind some rocks. Look at painting, looking at the hillside with some of this lovely landscape beyond and got on with it, really. Nobody bothered me because I was taken away.
PR: So, a piece of paper goes onto a board
TC: Yes, yes, yes
PR: What do you?
TC: Stretched, stretched.
PR: Stretched?
TC: A piece of paper so it won’t cockle when you wet it. [general laughter]
[overtalking here: **** indistinct]
PR: I mean, commonplace and obvious to those who know but that detail, yes. And then what's, how, how do you make the first mark on the - ?
TC: Well, I would, sort of, try and look through a viewfinder, or something that I can square up with my hands to look through. Make a viewfinder and get the viewpoint and the, and the scope of the picture. Because you can go on forever. So, you’ve got to confine it and then work to that format, really. Draw it in.
PR: With what?
TC: - with, with a pencil and a rubber. A fairly soft pencil, yes. Yes, but not too heavy, heavily marked, because you don't want that to dominate the picture. It’s guidelines, really, getting the, the positions with things and the scale and that sort of thing. Then, having done that and being satisfied with the arrangement, I would get paints out with this watercolour and damp the whole sheet with a sponge, start to put my paint on using the localised, sort of, colours in the various parts and let it all merge up to [**** indistinct]] At this stage there are no hard edges. And so, I'd cover the whole sheet with pigment. All different colours and tones and the rough positions where I want them. But there were no hard edges. And then I'd let that dry completely.
Then I do a second application, working into that, drawing more carefully, finishing as I go, as it were, and try and do the whole thing in two, two washes, really. Obviously, there may be some adjustments required. But using a good watercolour paper, you can lift out here and there and make some adjustments. Umm [pauses] take it home, put it away till the next day and have a look at it and see what you think of it then. Because if you look at it too, too soon after painting it, you can't get the original image out of your mind. You have to look at it quite dispassionately the next day or the day after that. Then you, then you get a good idea of, if it's come off by and large. What you might be doing is, I mean, simplifying a bit. The less that needs doing the better. And if you're satisfied with it then you’ll keep it. If you were a bit unsure of it when you came back, and you worked on it, you work on it knowing what you want to do, and it still didn't come off, well that's curtains for it.
PR: Do many get curtains?
TC: Not that many. I mean, there's a certain professionalism comes into this. But yes, certainly, certainly one or two get the heave ho.
PR: So, I think we can go back a bit now and just talk a little bit about where you first discerned your painting abilities in earlier life. And then take us through a bit more of the biography.
TC: Before we do any more shall I, shall I ask the lady [TC’s wife, Elaine] for a cup of tea?
PR: She’s busy in the garden, I’ve noticed.
ER: Give her a little bit more time.
TC: OK
ER: So long as that’s alright with you?
TC: OK that's fine, that's fine. Yes.
PR: So, we left you at the Ware Central having Aunty’s school lunch. And I think that's where we finished, wasn't it?
ER: That’s right, that’s right.
TC: Yes, I could say a little about my, my teacher there, C R Trevena [C R (‘Kit’) Trevena] my art teacher, who gave me great encouragement. He’d just come out of the army after the War. I think he'd been serving in Singapore, I think. Anyway, he came out of the army and he helped me a lot. He - you could recognise that I had some talent and - he gave me great, great encouragement in - he encouraged me to join the Ware Art Club which was part of the Ware Evening Institute, an evening class. So, at the age of twelve, in 1946, I joined the Ware Art Club and the teacher there was somebody called Alfred Wright. And he, in fact, was a distant relative of mine, as it happened. We both share the same uncle. So we weren't, we weren't actually related by blood. It was by marriage. He was a lot older than me. But he wasn't a professional painter but he was a very good amateur painter and he would take us out, particularly in the summer, painting around Ware. And that first evening I went, I painted a picture of Ware Bridge looking downstream and I still have that picture now [chuckles] the watercolour. I mean, looking back on it, it was a very modest effort! But it was, it was a stepping stone, you know? And - but he was, he was very helpful, Alf. He, he painted mostly in oils but he taught me to see colour, look for colour, even on a rainy day. The greys. He always spoke of the pearly greys in the distance.
ER: A day like today!
TC: That's right, although a slightly rainy day produces better, more attractive greys. But he was much, very much a colourist. So, he encouraged me to look for colour. He was a member of the Hertford Art Society. He was, he was their first, their first life member, that’s right. And he was ninety-six, I think, when he died. Let me just find [rustles around looking for something] I've got it here. But it’s probably too long to find it now. Yes, so, so he set me off on the ladder really? I've got one or two of his paintings. I bought one or two as well.
PR: So, had you not done any drawings at home as a very young child? Anything like that?
TC: Yes, I, I - when my father went into the army, he was a painter and decorator. And he had lots of, bits and pieces of, oil paint lying around the house. And I had an idea. When I was six or seven or eight, six or seven I think it was, I tried to paint in oils and found some of his oils, decorator’s oils, and tried to paint with them. And I couldn't understand why they ran all over the place [general laughter] So that was my first excursion into oil painting.
PR: That was a self-generated?
TC: Yes, it was, it was.
ER: So that was always there really, though, wasn't it?
TC: Yeah.
ER: This interest.
TC: Yes.
ER: Probably the vein of your father being a painter - I know a different sort of painter - but there was probably that vein running through and it came to you, didn't it? Didn’t come to, come to Brian [TC’s brother], did it?
TC: No, it didn’t, no. That’s right, no.
ER: He could, he could draw, I believe but -
TC: Yes, yes.
ER: Not quite as good as his, his brother, who I understand also hogged the bedroom which wasn't over large in Duncombe Rd, without having his easel!
TC: That's right. We only had a room, bedroom in Duncombe Rd that we shared. We shared a bedroom, ten by nine feet, together with my equipment in one corner. And during the War, we actually had two evacuees staying with us. Now, I'm trying to think how we slept with two bedrooms. Now, I think that my mother had my brother in her bed, I had one of the beds in the bedroom and one of the evacuees was in the bedroom. The other, his brother, was downstairs on the sofa. So, my mother had quite a handful.
ER: Did they go with you to Bengeo School, did they?
TC: No. This was later, slightly later in the War. One went to the Grammar School because he was, was Battersea Grammar School. And the other was - they were both Jewish - one went I'm not sure where.
ER: The school behind the - in Dimsdale St?
TC: Could be.
ER: Yes, because we had an evacuee. And he went to the school -
PR: Yes, Cowbridge School
ER: Cowbridge School. Yes. I'm sure that -
TC: Behind the United Reformed Church.
ER: That’s right, Trevor. Right.
TC: It could have been there.
ER: I think that’s the truth.
TC: But we had a crowd in the house. Now how my Mum managed, I really don’t know. Anyway, to get back to the painting. Yes, Alf certainly encouraged me, as did C R Trevena, Kit Trevena. Also, at that time, I was invited to join a group of young lads for tuition in architectural drawing by an architect who worked at the bottom of Port Hill. Eadred Lutyens who was Edwin Lutyens’ nephew. And he, he lived in - forgotten the name of the house - top of Port Hill on the right where the school is now.
PR: Yes. Duncombe School
TC: Duncombe School. He lived there, this architect. And he encouraged us, four or five of us, to go and have lessons, informal lessons, at his office every week. And he set little tasks, little projects for us to think about and design and go away and come back the next week and start to draw them out. And it was very encouraging, really. And that’s what stimulated my interest in architecture. So, when I came to leave school - not knowing really what I was going to do, because I really wanted to paint but I couldn't imagine myself doing that - I went into architecture.
ER: And soon after that time, of course, you got the buff envelope from her Majesty's Government that they needed you for a period of time.
TC: Yes, exactly.
ER: So which part, which service did you go into, Trevor?
TC: I went to the Royal Engineers Army, the Army, for two years [pauses] and I went through three months initial training. It’s a long period.
ER: Whereabouts was that, Trevor?
TC: In Farnborough, in Hampshire. Then I had the option of going abroad but I thought at the time, I'm not going abroad, please. It was just after Korea.
ER: So, you had a choice, did you?
TC: Well, not sure it was a choice but you sort of put your preferences down. And Suez is looming up as well - one or two hotspots. So, I thought I'll stay in England. Well, I didn’t stay in England because they sent me for three months to Scotland [general chuckling] to - to train as a Training NCO.
ER: In other words, you taught NCOs to be NCOs.
TC: Yeah, that's right.
ER: All that banter that we used to have on the parade ground.
TC: Yeah, I was - I used to go on the parade ground. And when I got to the point of
[short problem with the recording here]
TC: Yeah. OK. Yes, having qualified as a training NCO, I came back to Farnborough and was involved with training recruits. That's on the parade ground. Right from the ship. Demolition. Oh -
ER: The whole rigmarole.
TC: Yeah. Bridge building and all sorts, everything like that.
ER: So, you spent most of - were you at Farnborough all the time?
TC: Farnborough all the time, all the time.
ER: Except for the trip to Scotland.
TC: I thought, I don't like this job. So, I managed to get a job as an NCO, admin NCO, working from the office, you know, arranging transport for the - for the troops and that. And as long as I walked around the camp with a bit of paper in my hand, nobody bothered me too much [laughs]
ER: So, you would have - if you, if you could have done you would have - had plenty of time to paint, really.
TC: Yeah, but I didn't, didn’t paint.
ER: You stopped.
TC: I didn't move to painting. I listened to music. I was, I was really into music then.
ER: You didn't really enjoy the military - part?
TC: Not at all, not at all [said very deliberately] So it wasn't until I came out, joined the Art Society -
ER: - that you started painting again?
TC: Yes.
ER: Of course, you'd got to start looking for a job again.
TC: Yes, yes, I had.
ER: So, you, did you go back into architecture?
TC: Yes, I did. I did. I [pauses] up to the point of going into the army [pauses again] let me think, the dates [pauses to reflect] Now, yes, I was working as an architect in an architect’s office, then into the army, came out, had to get another job, found a job in Enfield, an architect’s firm in Enfield, in the town. And I came out, joined them in 1955 until 1958. After that, I got another job back in Hertford with Bill Dale, the architect. And we worked in Fore Street. And I was there until 1964. But during the time I was there, I was developing my painting and decided that, in 1964, that maybe I should try and earn my living by painting because I'm beginning to get recognized a bit and exhibiting here and there, selling. I thought it's worth a try.
ER: So, 1964 was one of the big years of your life because, looking at my piece of paper, by that time you had met that wonderful young lady, Elaine.
TC: Yes!
ER: Who was going to become your wife.
TC: That’s right.
ER: Sometime later. So, you’d got lots to think about, really.
TC: Yes, that’s right. Well, I thought if I'd managed to do a bit of architectural work privately as well. [pauses] I can probably give it a go and get by. It’s quite a risk to take but I thought if I don’t try, I'm never going to know.
ER: But did you feel that you were getting the support from your parents in this?
TC: Yes, I always had good support.
ER: Because we hear so much about penniless artists, don't we?
TC: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But, yes, I managed to pay my way and all that. Um - [thinks] Yes.
PR: So, you're with Bill, Bill Dale, up, up to that point. But did you have an ongoing association with Bill? He was a character and a half.
TC: Oh, yeah.
PR: Through the Art Society, or ?
ER: Yeah. Well, I mean, yes, he was in the Art Society, too, of course He was, he was Chairman for 17 years [thinks, pauses]
PR & TC: [nervous chuckling]
PR: A difficult person.
TC: Yes. Yes.
ER: They still have the Bill Dale, have the Bill Dale prize, do they not?
TC: They do, they do.
ER: You see, I mean, whatever. We record this or not! He was a stalwart of the Society.
TC: Yes.
ER: People didn’t always agree with what he said or did, but he was there.
TC: Oh yes.
ER: And that's -
TC: I first met him when I went to the Ware Art Club. He was a member of that, as well. So, you know, I knew him, quite well.
PR: I was at - all those shady little huts, kind of studio, he had off Railway Street - that? [chuckling]
TC: Yes, I remember it.
[general laughter]
PR: Had quite a reputation.
TC: Yes.
PR: Deserved or otherwise. So how did you meet Elaine and how did that happen?
TC: Well, quite informally. Just walking around the town and seeing her from time to time. On a Saturday, really. She’d sometimes be with her mother. And got, sort of, [on] nodding terms. And went on from there, really.
PR: And were they living in North Rd?
TC: North Road Gardens. That’s right. Yes.
PR: I remember her parents there but I don’t actually remember Elaine, and how I missed that vision, as a separate -
ER: You were too young, Peter!
PR: Is that what it was!
[overtalking here *** indistinct]
TC: I’m sure it was, yes! Actually, Elaine's father, he used to be Chief Buyer at Chaseside Engineering. And when I decided to venture on my own, he in fact gave me, or put me in touch with, somebody there who commissioned me to do some work for Chaseside. It was [pauses] most unlike anything I'd ever done before. It was producing exploded drawings of dumper trucks and loaders, shovel, mechanical shovels.
ER: Sort of thing that Chaseside produced?
TC: That's right. But it was mostly revision work. I had to clamber over these machines, noting that there were bolts here and bolts there that weren’t on the original one. Had to revise these exploded drawings. I’d had no engineering experience at all. They seemed to work.
PR: And when you talk about ‘exploded’?
TC: Well, mainly, they take a chassis. You would, sort of, take various components of the chassis and separate them out, with the nuts and bolts, and they would be identified on the edge.
PR: A kit, putting together - a model
TC: Yeah.
PR: Oh, and then it was Balfour St for -? Elaine’s father owned it or did both of them?
TC: No, no. No.
ER: Trevor went to Balfour St when he married.
TC: Yeah. We married in 1962. But I bought Balfour Street two years before that through Bill Dale actually. Because we, it was owned by the [pauses to think] Gosh. People who owned the Folly.
ER: Thornton's
TC: Thornton's Investment Trust
ER: Andrews [the Thornton family with the Andrews family, built the mid-terraced cottages on Folly Island in the late 1800s]
TC: Andrews. That's right. It was an odd house they had in Balfour Street [PR notes, ‘odd’ in the sense of it being a ‘single house’, distant from their other properties]
PR: What number was it?
TC: Number 10. And they were wanting to sell it and of course Bill, Bill Dale was involved with them .
PR: A sort of agent for them?
TC: So yes, so I put in an offer which was accepted and I got a very good, price, got it for a very good price.
ER: So, you still own it today, don’t you?
TC: Well, Elaine owns it today because you see when Elaine’s parents moved back to Hertford from Winchester, they bought that house from us when we came here. And then, of course, when they died, they left it to Elaine, you see. Elaine owns that now, she owns that now. Yes.
PR: And then, happy days, when you take the risk and it steadily pays off, as it were. Then you feel more and more comfortable. But the risk isn't - is always there.
TC: Yes, it’s always there
ER: It’s getting bigger because of course Richard had come along.
TC: Well, that's right. That's right. 1967 Richard came along. I was actually driving a car then, by then. I remember in Balfour St there were just four cars in the street.
ER: Including more like 44 now. And Richard, really, he, he’s not an artist but -
TC: - no -
ER: - he's got that vein in him. He collects, I believe, doesn’t he?
TC: He collects, yes. He’s an authority on textile design of a certain period.
ER: Which he’s got this art thing within him hasn't he?
TC: And, in fact, he and his colleagues have written three books on artist textiles.
PR: Yes. And then we’d better just, just getting -
TC: We're digressing.
PR: More or less rounding off aren’t we. But we need to look at community.
TC: Yes.
PR: And you still sing in Bengeo Church Choir?
TC: Yeah.
PR: Has that been a sort of continuo through your life?
TC: Yes. About 1946. Again, when I joined, when I joined the Ware Art Club, I joined Bengeo Church Choir. Christmas 1946. I was 12, I think. I have been singing in the choir there ever since. They can’t get rid of me [laughs]
ER: That’s 70 years, Trevor
TC: How many?
ER: 70 years!
TC: Yes, it is, isn’t it!
[general chuckling]
PR: There’ll be a brass plaque on your [***indistinct]
TC: Yeah
ER: Mostly evensong now though, isn’t it?
TC: Yes, it is nowadays. Yes, for me, mostly. But I’ve got to go next week. Yep, there's that. [pauses to think] And I’m in the Civic Society. I’m, well, a friend of the Hertford Orchestra.
ER: Are you also a friend of Hertford Museum?
TC: No, I’m not, actually. I’m not.
ER: You are one of the élite on the Board of -
TC: I don’t know why. I have never been a friend of Hertford Museum [chuckles]
ER: Have you not?
TC: Because I’ve been involved with them at various times. And this and that, you know. No, you’re right.
PR: But the town moves. Do you see that it’s [pauses] still an interesting place or - ?
TC: Oh yes, I love the old town. It's, it's my home. And it's, it's a shade of what it was sometimes when you look around.
ER: I think this must be a unique time. We've got a room where we have three Hertford boys together.
TC: Yeah, that's right
ER: Which is a unique thing, nowadays. You go to functions. Sometimes you could be the only Hertford person there. But do you ever see yourself not painting, Trevor?
TC: No, no, no, I tend - these days - I tend to pace myself, in everything really, I suppose, a bit. But yes, I just carry on painting. I can't stop painting.
ER: And all the places that you visited. For your art -
TC: - yes -
ER: - all round the world.
TC: Yeah. A lot of places.
ER: I know from America to India, to Syria to Ireland, France, Italy. So, you're well-travelled?
TC: Yes, and I enjoy travelling.
ER: Yes, and do you, do you sometimes have to leave Elaine at home when you do these?
TC: Oh, yeah, yeah. Generally speaking, painting and family don't mix. Not very well. When we go on a family holiday, I do snatch a few times to paint and I’ll often get up before breakfast. Do something while Elaine’s having a shower.
ER: It's not true that you went to Venice for a week and didn't paint at all, is it?
TC: Go to Venice for a week and not - ? Good heavens, no! I went to Venice for a fortnight by myself and painted. [pauses] yeah, but if it's a family holiday, yes, I do paint but always in the back of my mind it’s not just my painting.
PR: People - I think I once asked you if you knew that Nanna Thomas that was, lived, was born, in the same row of cottages at the top of the hill from you but before you4. And they must have moved on because I remember talking to him. He's, he died now. He lived in New Rd [No 27] at the end of his life opposite the church gates, virtually. And [pauses] he was born in your cottages.
TC: Oh, Thomas with the big ear! [PR notes he had one elephantine ear and one standard ear]
PR: Yes, yeah. And at his birth - he was born in that cottage - and at his birth, the Salvation Army was singing in the Warren gates entrance and it was Christmas songs.
TC: Oh, really.
PR: He was born, I think, on Christmas Day.
TC: In one of those cottages there? Really?
PR: I remember him telling - I think I asked you before if, on guess - you were only there a short time and I don’t know whether - but other Hertford people, Trevor, what kind of vicars have you had, rectors of Bengeo?
TC: Rectors of Bengeo? Well, the first one I remember is Oliver. Harry Oliver. Then, of course - well we had a Church army man for a while who was in the parish. His name was Oldroyd.
PR: Oh, right, haven’t - yes.
ER: Then did you have the Navy man, Hilton Briggs?? [means the Revd G C P Hilton Briggs. PR notes he was known as Peter Briggs socially]
TC: Yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yes!
ER: He was there a while.
TC: Quite a while, quite a while. Yes.
ER: That was when the Rectory was at Beninghoe [1890s house on Byde St]
TC: Yes, it was.
ER: On the corner [Corner of Byde St and Duncombe Rd]
TC: Yes, yes.
PR: Colin Weale was at Beninghoe all that time. So, who was your favourite - ?
ER: Well, that's a difficult question isn’t it, Trevor [general laughter]
TC: Can’t say.
ER: More like asking you what’s your favourite painting, really, isn’t it? [laughter again]
TC: Hmm - I don’t know [pauses to think]
PR: But they’ve all brought different characteristics, haven’t they.
TC: Yeah, that's right. Yes, yes. Yes. But I didn’t know Harry Oliver very much because, because I was quite young then [thinks again]
PR: And the chap now they’re all talking about in Hertford, and in the art world, Alan Davie [The renowned artist and musician, Alan Davie CBE. Born: 28 September, 1920, Grangemouth. Died: 5 April, 2014, in Hertfordshire, aged 93]
TC: Davie. Yes, yes
PR: Did you meet him?
TC: Yes, I knew him [thinks and pauses] He lived at Rush Green. And in the 50s and early 60s he came to the Art Society a couple of times and spoke about his art. And, in fact, his wife used to pose nude for us in those days [pauses] I haven't got a painting of her now. I wish I’d kept it, kept them. But - err - what was I talking about? Yes, and I got in contact with him, when the Art Society had its 40th anniversary, to borrow a painting of his. And he lent a painting for our exhibition. But I had to go down every night and bring it home here. I didn’t dare leave it, in the Corn Exchange ‘cause of security. But yes, he was always -
PR: I'm glad you've had the arts link because he didn't really, he was never really a town person.
TC: No. I always quote to people, in those days, in the 50s and 60s, he and his wife used to float around Hertford market every Saturday. Very elegant couple with his, him with his flowing beard and long hair and her, she's quite a tall person. They always made quite a [pauses] a sight really.
PR: So, he came down to the market?
TC: Yeah, yeah. He used to come down.
PR: Yes, my closest link with him, although I did meet him a few times at Rush Green’s - I had friends in the neighbouring house - at dinner party type things but he came in as a patient into the next bed to me at the County Hospital. And his wife at that time was suffering with her dementia.
TC: The last time I’ve heard she was up in Broad Oak [the Care Home on Bramfield Rd]
PR: Yes, I imagine. But poor chap, I think he had a fall. There was some reason for hospitalizing him. And, and she wouldn't stop - I think he collapsed at home or something - and she couldn't stop talking at him and telling him things and making him pay attention to her. And he was clearly - but we had four or five days together, as you do in those four walls. But I hadn't heard what had happened to her so Broad Oak End would be a likely -
TC: Yes, she was there certainly. Yes. But they used to go, they used to have a place in St. Lucia they just go to in the summer. And he was very much a glider pilot.
PR: Oh, was he?
TC: And he played in a jazz band. He played trumpet, I think? Was it trumpet? Or? I'm not sure about that ‘cause he played in a jazz band with somebody else I knew. Never heard them. But he was quite good, I believe.
PR: And other people that you can remember in - ? Were there characters around the town or any in the shops and things amused you or puzzled you? Apart from Eddie Roche? [general chuckling]
ER: I mean, some people you would have liked to avoid, wouldn’t you, Trevor!
TC: Everybody remembers Paddy surely, sitting outside the, the Corn Exchange. The Irish navvy who came over I think from Ireland when they did this big sewer through the town. Now what was his name? McCarthy? [Spelling??]
PR: Yes.
TC: McCarthy, his name was.
PR: Yes.
ER: I think it was McCarthy. I’m not sure.
PR: Danny.
ER: Danny! Not Paddy!
TC: Danny!
ER, PR, TC: Danny!!
TC: I'm sorry, yes. Danny.
PR: What do you remember of him then? He was a [***indistinct]
TC: Well, he was always there! He was a fixture.
ER: Him and his dog. Bottle in hand.
PR: Yes, so he -
ER: When the winter came, he would sometimes commit a bit of minor felony, so he would get a few days in Her Majesty's Prison, which was warm, and he got meals. But people, we used to ring the police station and say, ‘What about the dog?’ And I do believe that the kind people he claims, well, I know they had a dog bowl for him. And I think they went across to Wally’s and Spencer's [Wally's and Spencer's two separate butchers some distance, apart, both in Railway St ] and got bits of meat, tins of whatever, and looked after the dog while Danny was in the comforts of home. Well of course he was a very well-read man. [PR later notes that Danny was said to have been an English master in schools]
PR: Very nice chap
ER: Very polite Just got this illness. But many other people -
TC: I didn't like his taste in women. ‘cause he was very friendly with somebody in Bengeo.
ER: Very true, he was. But at one time, he was shacked up - when they drove the new road through, opposite where our shop was. There were two cottages left standing. And he used to shack up in one of those, just on the ground. Because we went over there one day and there was a dirty old mattress in it.
PR: 83 and 85 [St Andrew St. 83 and 85 were left standing during the construction of Gascoyne way because they were set back having previously been in a yard behind shops in St Andrew St. Their 'behind the street frontages' location no doubt accounted for the fact that, having been left derelict and not demolished for some years, they provided unofficial accommodation for Danny]
ER: That’s right, Peter. And it was, it was sad because you could have wonderful conversations with him. And he was well-read but he’d just fallen ill when -
TC: Well [pause ] he was under the influence of -
ER: Yeah. He was poorly. Same about the chap who used to be in London. He was not well.
TC: Yes, but there we are.
PR: Neighbours, Trevor? Mrs Law was near you in Duncombe Rd?
TC: Mrs Law, yes5
ER: Did you see John Law [her son] when you left Dave and Jennifer's?
TC: No
,ER: He’d gone in by then.
TC: No, I didn't see him
ER: He stopped us. There was a car waiting to come out.
TC: Oh, right?
PR: His mother lived near to you?
TC: Yes, she lived at number 22, I think it was. 122. I lived at 100.
PR: 122. Yes, a bit further up, yes.
TC: Yes, that’s right. Yes, she was quite a character, wasn’t she. She always, she was one of those people who always wore a hat at Easter. Now that’s my one regret, that we get to Easter, nobody wears a hat, at all. And I mentioned it to the Rector and I said, ‘you know it would be nice if one or two people wore their hats’.
ER: Easter bonnets.
TC: But he didn’t put it in the magazine or anything like that.
PR: No, that’s a special flourish, isn’t it.
ER/TC: Yeah.
ER: Peter always had a thing about women and hats. I remember one of the first times I went out with him doing our slideshows. There was a picture of two ladies in Cross Lane. And he was quite sure that one belonged to one parish and one belonged to another parish because one had got a hat on and one hadn’t got a hat.
PR: All Saints were hats. Mostly.
ER: Yeah.
PR: I thought for a minute you were going to talk about another lady with hats on in Duncombe Rd, like number 114, Mrs Hunter. [served as the Mayoress, the Mayor's consort, in 1989 when her husband, William Richard Hunter, was the Mayor]
TC: Oh, of course she’s still about.
PR: She is still about.
ER: An elegant lady, she is.
PR: And what a Mayoress she was with her hats year after year.
TC: Yes, her maiden name was [pause] Gardener [spelling?]
PR: Lived in Greenways, her mother?
TC: No, no, she lived in [hesitates] North Rd Avenue
PR: Ah, North Rd Avenue, was it?
TC: Yes. I can’t remember. What was her Christian name?
ER: Ann. She taught my eldest son at nursery school. He didn’t like nursery school but she was very kind to him. He still remembers her, funnily enough. Well, you see her about. I believe she was at mayor making.
TC: Yes, she was. You’re right.
PR: Well, Bill Hunter was there.
TC: Yes.
PR: 90 now.
TC: Yes, yes, that's right.
PR: Had his leg amputated because of circulatory things and smoking. When he was quite a, you know, you’d think then if an element, a limb is -
ER: Anne was one of those people who always looked elegant. A sort of person you’d say if she wore a potato sack she would look smart.
PR: That's the point of just mentioning her name, in a way for me, because I would laugh but admire at the same time because of that, that very special - and she saw the role of mayoress as very, very important and the dress and presentation as crucial and always for amusement but I’m full of admiration and approval. The hat, they just make that special difference, don’t they? On an occasion. Ladies with hats.
ER: I think all the ladies of our acquaintance, ay, Trevor, always look smart, don’t they?
TC: Of course they do.
PR: Wearing their hats.
[***indistinct talking over]
ER: I can remember my wife buying hats. She had - mostly to go to weddings. And they were quite expensive in the days of that posh shop in - that was in Railway St. And they moved down on to, to Bull Plain.
TC: Oh, yes.
ER: I forget the name.
TC: Ah, I know, I know.
ER: And eventually people would say to my wife ‘Have you got a hat I can buy?’ And I think, in the end, she, she gave these hats to one of the charity shops and they went like hot cakes. Yeah but -
PR: We used to have hat shops. Louise's hats [It was next to the Castle Cinema which opened in 1914 and was on the site of the Hertford Theatre (now Beam) in The Wash, next to the River Lea. It closed in 1959, was demolished, and the site was a car park before the Castle Hall/Hertford Theatre, was built, which has since been redeveloped into the current Beam]
TC: Yes, that’s right.
ER: There was the one in St Andrew St, next to Fred Hill.
PR: Yeah, Florence.
ER: She lived along North Rd way. Another elegant lady.
PR: Miss Cooke.
ER: Very elegant lady.
[general laughter]
ER: We can spend hours talking about elegant ladies!
PR: Well, we’d need a drink, more than a cup of tea.
TC: Is Elaine making the tea? I heard a chink. I’ll go and just check.
PR: I think we’re virtually there.
TC: Are we?
PR: Unless -
ER: Anything you would you like to add, Trevor?
TC: Well [pauses to think] I don’t know, really.
ER: You’re still, you’re still - ?
TC: I hope you’ve got a tape in, that’s all.
ER: You’re still enjoying life, OK, Trevor?
TC: Oh yes.
ER: I notice your cat has just popped its head up.
TC: Ah, poor little cat.
ER: Outside. One of the great loves of your - you and Elaine - your life, is the cats.
TC: Yes. [pauses to think] I’ve forgotten what I was going to say. Sorry!
PR: You were going to say that you are enjoying life.
TC: Oh yes. Yes. I look out every day and just think ‘wonderful’, you know.
PR: Well, a wonderful place to have landed as well. So close to -
TC: Yes, yes.
ER: I think it took an artist’s eye, Peter, to select a place like this to live. Because, as I say, you could look out there -
TC: - yes -
ER: - and what more would you want?
TC: Yes, you see the marsh in many moods. You see it flooding, you see it in the mist. It was in the mist this morning.
ER: Do you ever wish they would do something with the river, though?
TC: Yeah. I can remember swimming in the river down here as a kid. Seeing trout. And there was some big pike in there as well.
ER: They took all those out at one time to make it into a pure trout fly fishing. Many years ago. But then it fell into disrepair, didn’t it, if you remember.
PR: Well, I think we’re there. I have one disappointment, Trevor, with this interview, I have to say.
TC: Oh?
PR: Well, you haven’t made your, asked my - the question you normally ask me.
TC: Oh? [laughs]
PR: Which is - Eddie you don’t know about this.
ER: No, I’m keeping quiet!
PR: I think it’s the company! Trevor chooses, when I’m talking to the most inappropriate person like Dorothy Abel Smith6 and comes up to me and enquires after a particular painting of Trevor’s that’s on my piano.
TC: Yes, yes.
PR: And it’s Linda, a nude, and she’s - it’s a rear view [back to the artist]
ER: Not Linda Radford? [Dr. Linda Radford, former pharmacist, active community volunteer and councillor. Served two terms as Hertford Mayor 2015 to 2017 after also serving as Leader of the Council and Mayoress]
TC: No, no, no. Linda.
PR: No, just Linda. She’s turned round [***indistinct] and I have to then explain to Dorothy Abel Smith exactly -
ER: [interrupts] There she is, bless her! [addressing Elaine, Trevor’s wife coming in with the tea]
PR: - what this little joke’s all about. [Footnote 3]
[***indistinct cross chatter Elaine, having come in with the tea]
PR: Elaine.
EC: Yes?
PR: Just come and sit down and Trevor can make the tea. He said some very, very nice things about you.
EC: Did he really? Did he, did he?
PR: But are you a Hertford girl?
EC: No, I’m a Hitchen girl. Lived at Letchworth
PR: Went to Hitchin, came back scratching.
EC: Yes, that’s what they say!
PR: So, how did you come to be in Hertford?
EC: Dad moved here to Chaseside. Chaseside Engineering.7 And that’s how we came to move from Letchworth to Hertford.
PR: And did you move straight into North Rd Gardens?
EC: Yes, we did straightaway. Yes.
PR: They are all being expanded now - North Rd Gardens at the moment. Lots of felling. What number were you?
Elaine: We were in number 2.
PR: On the left second one up. Is that right or was it - ?
EC: The top, the top on the left.
PR: The numbering is funny, isn't it?
EC: I believe it is. I’ve sort of forgotten. Yes, I believe it is.
PR: It must be two and four and then -
EC: One and two?
PR: One and three?
EC: Or something? Well, we were two. Yeah, that's right. 2, North Rd Gardens. Yes, and we were the one at the, not at the very top, that you see, but to the left of it. Four houses.
PR: Do you remember first meeting Trevor?
EC: [laughs purposefully] Oh, yes. Saturday afternoons. He was always around the town and [pauses to think] I don't know. He was there with John Law. Always with John. Trevor with this horrible old raincoat [laughs] Button off the back. Never did get a button on it, that raincoat [laughs again and pauses] Yes, and I can't - I don't know how it all came round. You know, how it, how we actually met up. Anyway, we did - eventually. I know I was going back home with my mother along St Andrew St and there used to be the Quartette8. Do you remember the Quartette?
PR: Yes, Mr Madle [PR later adds it was Norman Madle}
EC: Mr Madle. Yes, Dad knew him. And they came tearing out of there just as I was going along, and, I don’t know, kept bumping into them. And then one afternoon. I don't know, we got together - talking. And you know what he said to me? I expect Trevor said. Has he?
ER: No, he hasn’t!
EC: Has he not said it?
ER: Not that famous saying?
EC: That famous saying! [chuckles]
ER: Would you like to come to the pictures, Elaine? [general laughter] Yes. All right. Bring some money!
EC: He shouted - just as I was leaving - down. Bring plenty of money with you!
[general laughter]
ER: A horse rubbing artist!
EC: But he wasn't, he wasn't an artist then. That's right, isn't it? Hot on the old money! [general laughter] So that‘s that. I don’t know how we really came about. That was the first time we really spoke, was in Maidenhead St when you said come to the pictures.
TC: Oh yes, come to the pictures. That's right.
ER: We often laugh about that.
TC: When I lived in [pauses to think] in Port Hill, occasionally we used to go back - which I do remember - to see a next-door neighbour, Mrs Betts. And I was talking to Poole [pauses to think again] Paul, David Poole9 because he used to live -
PR: Yes, he was a Poole.
TC: And he knew Mrs Betts. In fact, his granny used to live nearby, I think.
ER: I think David came here during the War.[PR later adds that he came as a baby]
TC: Yes, yes. Anyway, my aunt, the one I used to go to have school meals with - not school meals but meals whilst at school - before she got married, she used to work for Grattan who owned the Blue Boot Stores in Hertford. [Alfred Grattan's Blue Boot Stores at No. 25 Maidenhead St] And they lived in a big house up on the hill where Rushton [Superintendent of the Hertford Waterworks] used to live -
PR: Oh, yes, yes. 57
TC: Is that what it is?
PR: I think it is
ER: Is that the place? Is that where he lived? Because at one time he lived in
[*** indistinct] He rented it from the Baker's. He did very, very well. My grandfather came up from Swindon to work for him.
TC: Oh, right? But anyway, he lived up there. Wonderful view wasn’t it. But he also had a cottage in Ventnor on the Isle of Wight, which my aunt used to go to occasionally. And, of course, my father knew the Taylors and all that, the greengrocers and that down there. Sid Taylor, I think he was.
ER: The muffin man!
TC: Was he, what do you call it, Pearly King?
[Scraping of plates *** indistinct here]
ER: Is that the Taylors who were relations of Marilyn? [Marilyn Taylor, a leading member of the Hertford Oral History Group]
PR: Yes, that's Marilyn’s family. So, was Mrs. Betts just a long-term resident?
TC: I think so, yes. Yes, yes.
PR: So, there was, there used to be a Polly, a Polly Betts, who - I think she lived in Ware Rd - with flannel feet. [PR later makes a correction to this in footnote 4]
TC: Yes, yes. Yes. I remember her.
ER: She was a vegan, wasn’t she?
TC: Yes, yes, yes. I remember her. She lived down, you know her? [addressing Elaine]
EC: Yes, I know who you mean.
TC: What’s her name?
EC: Lived near Renee. Opposite Renee nearly
TC: Down Villiers St.
EC: Yes.
TC: Now what was her name?
EC: Oh dear. I remember typing her inventory at work.
TC: It wasn’t Hoare, was it?
EC: Pardon?
TC: Hoare, was it? No, no
EC: I’m -
TC: [interrupts] Hoad !! Hoad!!
PR: Hoad!! Miss Hoad !F[l[[
EC: Miss Hoad, Miss Hoad.
TC: Miss Hoad !! Hoad!!
PR: Yes! Flannel feet! [was so called because she did not wear shoes. She used to wear no leather because of her beliefs about animals and used to wrap her feet up in woollen cloths10].
EC: Yes, flannel feet. Exactly!
TC: She used to be [***indistinct] Terrible.
EC: Yes, she did.
ER: But she stuck by what she believed.
PR: So, what were you doing, typing in - ?
EC: Well, Longmore’s. I remember typing her inventory, what she had in the house. She was a lady’s maid, I believe.
TC: Well, she dressed a bit better than that!
ER: You see, Trevor, in those days there was a lot of people in Hertford who were in service to people.
EC: Yeah, that’s right.
ER: I found out through Jean Riddell that my aunt - who was one of the biggest snobs on the planet - she had been in service to a lady in Ware Rd. You know, it was never mentioned, of course, you know, later on in life because they just wouldn’t. They would have sort of, if you’d have seen my aunt, you would have thought she was the person who had servants. [general laughter] But there were a lot of people like this, in service, because there were lots of families who could afford servants. So, people who lived in West Street in the big, what they called the big houses in those days, and along Ware Rd. Of course, I mean, even our old building in St Andrew St, the top part, was where a couple of servants, serving girls, lived. And the people who were there, he was, well, he was the agent, one of the land agents for Lord Salisbury.
PR: Yeah.
ER: You know, and that's how it was, them days.
TC: Yes, yes. That’s right.
ER: I mean, of course in those days you didn't have cookers and hoovers and everything was done by hand, wasn't it?
TC: Yes. There was another character down, down Ware Rd. Jimmy Brickwell. Do you know of him?
ER: No, the only character I can remember in my days was the chap who swept the roads.
TC: Oh, Joe. Joe Spackman.
PR: Leather gaiters.
ER: Immaculately dressed.
TC: Immaculate white shirt, collar, tie.
ER: Waistcoat
TC: Polished gaiters.
ER: And boots
TC: And he worked the whole of Hertford. And he was very good.
ER: And his pipe, puffing on his pipe.
TC: He used to stop - John Law and I often used to speak to him.
TC: [mimics Joe’s accent] ‘How do you, how do you? How are you getting on?’
ER: A well, a quite well to do family, didn’t he?
TC: I did a couple of drawings of him, actually. [See one of TC’s drawings of him in the footnote below]
PR: Did you?
ER: I know in the autumn time he was forever trundling his truck, up our sideway, behind our shop, because we had a big allotment there, and it was a place where he could dump the leaves. Save him going -
EC: I hope you like it with milk do you Peter? Jolly good.
TC: I mean, he was in a, in a mayoral family, wasn’t he.
PR: Yes, his father. Yes, yes. Was he Mayor? He may have been. He was certainly a councillor.
TC: Yes.
PR: Didn't his sister marry the Vet’s - ? Well? Am I right? Chestnutt’s
ER: Wasn't her name, Tessa. Tessa Spackman?
PR: Yes, Is that sister of Joe?
ER: I'm not sure.
PR: They were related.11
EC: Never thought about it, but I suppose.
PR: So, Miss Hoad’s inventory was nothing special, but - ?
EC: Not that I can remember.
PR: Because it did look a bit of a challenge, as a house. [25 Villiers St]
TC: There was all [****indistinct] light at the window.
PR: Yes, lights at the window
EC: Yeah, that's right, yes, I can't think very much that there was, But I can remember typing it.
ER: So, was it her house then, Elaine?
EC: I don’t know. I can’t tell you anything more than, you know, that. I don’t recall -
PR: We talk about, talking about light a great deal, but in many ways the fogs of Hertford in the past, while they've gone and the air and everything is cleaner, and there's much more colour in the town than in the days when we’re now talking about, Miss Hoade’s day. You know, you can imagine the fascia boards on shops and things like that where-
TC: We certainly don't get those pea soupers now, do we.
PR: We don’t get those. And brightness itself.
ER: I think what we haven't got in the town now is colour in a different sense. The colour [pauses] it’s difficult to explain. The town. I mean, coming back to your slides, Peter. On one I can think of, of Hertford market on a Saturday and the colour of the people, the language, you know, the ‘China King’, the chap from Stowmarket. I was talking to someone the other day, and he was saying to me. ‘Do you remember a bloke they used to call him the ‘Banana King’, I think’ I said, ‘Yeah, I do remember him. He had a big stall that way, and that way. We, you go down the Hertford. market now, I don't go very often but I went in Saturday and the market is there, but it's quiet.
TC/PR: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
ER: There are people queuing up with a bucket to get their vegetables and fruit and whatever is - and then they - there's a bloke at the end, and he reminded me of this ‘Banana King’ because I was sure he’d got a fag on the go when he was weighing up to pay him. John's fish stall. It's a quiet place, isn’t it. Whereas you went to Claydon’s [the original fishmongers at 11 Railway St where Kin Pla Seafood & Kitchen now operates] and you had banter.
[Omitted: to and fro chatting about tea and cake and who wants what]
ER: And I don’t think there’s quite as many characters about as -
[Large part omitted here *** Elaine again asking about where and how they want their tea and their cake followed by general chatter on gardening, what is in their respective gardens and what they can and can’t grow in them etc, etc.]
TC: That gardener fellow years ago, [mimics a country accent] ‘The answer lies in the soil’ What was his name?
ER: The chap from Essex.
PR: He wasn't a gardener.
EC/PR: He was a comedian.
ER: Bernard Miles.
TC: No, he was a gardener, this fella -
EC: No, I think he was. Oh, yes, he was on. That's not -
PR: Fred Streeter, was it not?
EC: No, before him.
PR: Mr, Mr. Middleton?
ER: Come on, Peter, think of ‘Gardeners Question Time’.
[Omitted **. Much banter back and forth with random names thrown around]
ER: Pam picked up, we had this thing come in from Hertford Theatre [now ‘Beam’ which, following a major redevelopment, officially opened as a new multi-purpose arts venue on Friday, August 23, 2024, with its first films and performances launching that weekend to celebrate] and they're gonna show ‘The Third Man’. And that was one of the first records I ever bought, was the ‘Harry Lime’ theme.
EC: Yes, yes, I've got that.
ER: And what else have they got? ‘African Queen’ I think we're going to see ‘Harry Lime’.
[Omitted. More banter back and forth with more names thrown around]
PR: We're doing well in Hertford Theatre aren’t we, for a small town.
TC: Seems to be quite popular
ER: Oh no. I was pretty disappointed the other week, we went to see ‘Mr. Holmes’ with Ian McKellen, who, Pam really thinks a lot of. But I thought it was a bit slow, the film. It went on a bit. It’s like the one about Turner. But, you know, very often for the films, it's very, very full, because they've got the added thing that a lot of people go in there in the evening and they'll have a cup of coffee, or whatever they want to drink before the show starts. So, there's a bit more revenue coming in there. And really, for people like ourselves, for a fiver it’s good value. And I think some of the other things we're going to see, ‘Aida’, or listen to ‘Aida’. They relay it from, this is coming from Sydney, the opera. And I don't know how much it's going to cost, but it doesn't really matter. But it's cheap, cheaper than going, cheaper than the train fare of going to London.
TC: Ralph Whitlock! Remember him?
ER: I thought he was an athlete – no, that was Harold Whitlock, wasn’t it. He was a walker.
TC: Ralph Whitlock12
ER: Well, I’m blowed, Trevor!
EC: A farmer more than a gardener
TC: From the depths of my mind.
[Longish section omitted *** about their respective gardens and what they grow in them and how they are tended and the state of their hands when gardening without gloves etc, etc]
TC: But you’d have had hands like leather anyway, with your work you've done.
ER: Look at that like a surgeon's hands. They look soft and supple, yeah? No callouses.
EC: And did you wear gloves when you used to do the shoes and that, Eddie? Never? You couldn't work -?
ER: No. My son used to complain because it was getting to that era of health and safety, where people wore glasses, these fancy glasses and masks, and people will think I'm cutting someone's head off at the back there with all the noise and that. No, never have. I remember when in the 70s I had long hair. Believe it or not and side burns. I cut them off because I had to meet a lady who became a Liberal Democrat years ago.
EC: From Hertford?
ER: No, she came to visit the School because she was going to come with a group of other people and didn’t come. And Pam said you’d have to have a haircut and cut those side burns off. Oh, God, she's still about now. She’s everso old now. Well, she came to our School in the 1970s because I was either on the PTA or the Governors or stuff. I had this long hair, and I was in the workshop one day looking at a machine, and we had this piece that went round and round and round. That way [indicates the direction] And I, I went like that, and it caught my hair, and we had a deaf and dumb man work for us, and he was the first person to realize that I was in trouble. The vibration - changed - and he was round, and just clicked the thing off at the mains. And there I was with my head stuck. Yeah, oh no, we didn’t wear gloves, sort of thing. I'd go home, and particularly when I was courting Pam my hands would be brown, and I'd get the old pumice stone out. When I was younger, I used bleach - white hands - but yeah, you’d spend hours cleaning them, trying to get your hands clean - it engrained itself. The dye and the tanning of the leather.
EC: A bit like oil painting then isn’t it, like on your hands because you get -
TC: - yes but -
ER: It dries the skin? Trevor, doesn't it? The paint would dry your skin. Do you ever use a cream or anything like that?
TC: Don’t actually, no, occasionally, occasionally, I might use something in the winter.
EC: Sometimes you put some of that cremolia [Boots cremolia hand cream]
ER: I always use, even now, E45 particularly on this top [****indistinct] It saves the skin from drying, often.
ER: You’re looking beautiful, Peter!
[laughter]
PR: The ladies, well, we do these film shows [he means slide shows] together. It's a classic situation, really. Eddie comes as technical assistant.
ER: ‘Pinky and Perky’! [Pinky and Perky, a pair of anthropomorphic puppet pigs, a Children's television series first broadcast by BBC TV in 1957, and revived in 2008 as an animated adaptation]
PR: ‘Pinky and Perky’. And then I start unloading the car, and Eddie helps me. And then, because it's projectors, screens and extension leads and all those things. And then I'm out of the car getting my third load in. And I think where’s Eddie. And of course, he's caught, someone's caught him. They actually fall on him if he goes -
ER: You !
PR: - to a village hall in Tewin or Potters Bar, wherever it is -
EC: Really?
PR: Yeah.
EC: He’s always -
ER: And d’you know. I've told you. He's told this tale so many times. You know, as soon as he gets in there. Now look, I was over at Welwyn Garden City Hospital last week, and this woman looked at me and Pam, and she said, ‘Can I come and sit next to you, Mr. Roche, because I know you?’ And it was one of the women from Bengeo Fellowship. Tubby woman. And I can't think which one. And they did call her name out.
PR: Pam was pleased!
ER: So, she, she started on about the film shows [he means slide shows, (of 1960’s Hertford)]. She said, ‘cause she said, ‘Peter, and you are coming to see us soon, aren't you?’ I said, ‘I don't think. Peter’s coming’
PR: Ah that’s the one I said I can’t do.
ER: I said, ‘But I shall keep badgering him’, because these people are always if I say, they say, about going to anywhere, ‘Well, Peter’ll be there, won’t he?’ It's not me at all. You know, it's Peter! And when it's all over, a nice Victoria sponge cake for Peter.
[laughter]
PR: Mary Martin13 used to do that. Do you remember, from Bengeo. She wasn't Martin for long. She married very late in life - in Russell Street used to live - always in Russell St and born in that little lodge, [52 Port Vale] the lodge at the bottom of, that leads up the drive to [thinks] the Melvilles. [the Grove] That's where she was born.
EC: I know who you mean, because Dad used to know -
PR: Yeah, I’ve forgotten what her maiden name was. I used to know. [PR later adds that it is Chapman]
EC: She married very late, didn’t she?
PR: A man who came to live in her street whose wife died soon after they arrived. Yeah, and then they married. Now, it’s Barbara. Her name was Barbara Skipp14, she brings a - she's 93.
TC: Bengeo Cottage Gardeners?
PR: Yes, she'd bring her to the slideshow. They are -
ER: Iris Akers15 was 99!
PR: She didn’t want anyone to know. Her daughter said - she was furious.
ER: I thought she was 92. I knew her when she was married to Bert because he was - he did a lot for the scouts in my time.
[***More banter omitted on who wants cake and more tea etc]
ER: Of course, they lived in that lovely old cottage that snaked down the Warren, didn’t they, and they gradually built bits on - started off with a little bit at the top of the thatched roof.
EC: Where do you mean, Eddie?
ER: The top end of the Warren.
EC: Where Burt the Butcher’s used to be? [40 Port Hill]
TC: No, other end.
ER: You know just by St Leonard’s Church and you go down the Warren and there's a gate and to the left of it as you look through the hedge, and there you can see this little Thatch like a mushroom. [The Vineyard]
EC: I know, yes, I do know, yeah.
ER: They lived there for years and years and years.
TC: Who was that? What’s her name?
ER: Akers.
TC: There was an Akers who lived there.
ER: I've got a picture of hers. I must give to somebody –
TC: Brian knows her.
ER: She works in Rose’s. [reference to the Newsagents Rose & Sons] And there's a picture of her with another woman. I've got two pictures, and she's written all the names of people in all these pictures. She said to me ‘keep them, because I know you'll look after them’. But what do I do with them? Now?
EC: How do you spell the Akers?
ER: [spells out] A K E R S. OK.
EC: No not Acres, Gordon Acre’s sister16
ER: No, that was Acres with a ‘c’, wasn’t it?
EC: Yes, I worked with her.
TC: Zillah Driver17 used to be at -
PR: She married the Rose’s - she married for about 18 months, I think.
ER: Did it last that long? A wild romance, but -
PR: We're not talking inappropriately, because she's put all this on tape so it's publicly available in the museum.
ER: Yeah, is that Zillah? We went to her bungalow.
PR: I was a bit surprised. She's always Mrs. Driver, and she's always been a single person, as it were, yes, but I thought she would have been more -
ER: - revert back to being Miss -
PR: Maybe, but or just, yeah, keep quiet about it really. But she was quite keen to talk about her marriage.
EC: Was she? Really, I’ve never really heard her speak about it. I mean, I know he, he took his own life, didn't he, her husband.
ER: He was not a well man.
PR: But a long time afterwards,
EC: Was it? Yeah, well that's the first inquest paper I used to do. And that was his. The first one.
ER: Like the chappy who used to come to our church. They found him in the river between the road bridge and the railway bridge in Beane Rd. And he was, he’d had an accident or something when he was young. And he used to come to our church and call in our shop and talk to my dad. It was a sad case. But one day they found him.
TC: Was he hanging there?
ER: No, he was drowned in the river.
TC: Of course, somebody, because somebody round those pillars hung himself
ER: Old Bertie Hebbes was always going to jump in the river.
PR: Her never did though. He died of natural causes -
ER: He used to get upset about things. He was, he was very good. My dad used to spend a fortune with him. He used to get, be able to get books. He had a Paper Shop. Smith’s.
EC: North Station.
EC: He was related to Mrs. Brooks, wasn’t he, or Bertie [she means Percy] Brooks?
PR: Yes, well he came as a lodger to the West Street home and he married the spinster daughter, Percy Brook’s sister. And Winnie Brooks was Percy Brooks’ wife. - but he came, he came as a WH Smith employee, just sent to that Hertford North Station branch. But he died in that house where he was a lodger, married and yes -
ER: He was on the Council for some time -
PR: Through Mrs. Brooks.
ER: He was a St Andrew's chorister.
PR: He was very talented organist. But he obviously suffered from the gloom, I mean, now we’d call it depression, I suppose. But he was, you know
ER: Yeah, it was always on top of him. He used to come in the shop and say to my dad. ‘Oww’, he’d say, about jumping in the river, and he’d say to him don’t do that, it’s a bit cold and it’s a bit –
PR: A Hertford thing, isn’t it. I suppose it’s just because we’ve got so many rivers. But Hertford people go that way, quite often.
ER: I think one of the [****indistinct] did, didn’t they?
EC: Mr - what's his name, the butcher. His, his brother did, didn't he -
TC: The butcher, which one?
EC: Up Ware Rd
ER: Johnson?
TC: Bruce Johnson18 His brother. That’s right.
EC: Of course you’d done that picture, hadn’t you.
TC: That's right. Of course he’d bought a picture of mine, Bruce did, along the Lea there by the Gasworks bridge. And one day he brought it back, didn’t he. Said I can't live with it. It's where my brother's just committed suicide.
EC: Have you still got it?
TC: I’ve still got it.
[chatter about tea and who wants another cup]
TC: But she’s doing quite well, isn’t she. I saw her in All Saints Church recently and she seemed quite bright.
EC: She’s marvellous.
PR: I remember being - working in Farnham’s paper shop. And one afternoon the bus from Bengeo came down, and you used to get a little flurry of customers coming off that - I don't know where they got off, in Cowbridge or Mill Bridge - but anyway - but one particular lady came in, paid her paper bill and went across Mill Bridge and jumped in the river.
ER: Well at least she squared you up!
PR: She squared up! And as far as we could recall, any of us, there was nothing, nothing of concern, you know that - she wasn't like the life and soul of the party ever. It was just not, not one of our -
ER: But going back to Teddie Johnson19 I don't know who I was with. Might have been on one of our walking groups. We were over at Papillon [Papillon pub at the Woodhall Arms, Stapleford. Closed 29 August 2015 and given over to housing] Not long ago, I always had our fish and chips or whatever it was. I think I sat with - I don’t know, whether it was a walking group or what - anyway, I think we were sat with Jen and Dave, and I got up and had a look round, and then all of a sudden - all right, well, don't speak then - And it was Teddie Johnson.
TC: 90th, wasn't it?
ER: And there was, I can't remember. I knew all the women, and I remember there was a young - when I say young, a younger one - who was driving these other three, and I was trying to - you know what we were saying about Teddie Johnson - trying to think who the others were, but they were all people of about 90, and all in good nick. Well, good enough to go over the Papillon and have lunch with a glass of something.
EC: Well, we happened to go there that day, didn't we, Trevor.
ER: Now how about that lady - this is going back a year or two now - It was either your wedding anniversary or Trevor's 80th. There was a lovely little lady lived down that way somewhere. She sat on our table.
TC: Oh, you mean Sue Harnden?
TC/EC: That's right, yeah. Is she still alive?
EC: She’s in Calton Court20.
ER: Up Sele Farm. What a lovely lady.
EC: She’s got a nice little place in there, a flat.
PR: Doctor’s Surgery on the ground floor. They bought their own Council House didn’t they and then had a job getting into Calton Court. It sometimes doesn’t pay off to be an owner occupier. They lived in Hawthorn Close. [No 4. Bill was the husband and Sue was a former St Andrew’s School Governor]
ER: Doesn’t that live - ?
TC: Yes. She, he lives round at No 10, I think it is.
PR: And she’s about No 4.
ER: He’s always a nice guy.
EC: Who is that?
ER: Edgar Lake.
TC: His father used to sit and play in the orchestra. He used to play double bass or something. [PR is unsure about this noting later that doubt exists whether or not the well-known Hertford Symph Orch, double bass player was indeed Edgar's father]
ER: Wasn’t his father a steward at the Club, the Hertford Club at one time.
TC: Who was?
ER: Edgar Lake’s father. Going back donkey’s years.
PR: Probably.
TC: He lived in Peel Crescent.
ER: He’s always been alright. We were at Jean Riddell’s a few weeks ago. I don’t know, it was an invite to a garden party with a shed. And we spent most of our time in next door’s garden, her neighbour.
PR: The model railway.
ER: Wonderful. We could have stayed there for ages. But Chantal21 came round the corner and and Pam took umbrage. But she sat at this table outside and there was Edgar and there was this chap from next door and his friend. And Edgar had got his friend with him. And two women came out and they were friends, if you follow my drift, and Pam came indoors - she said I felt a bit out of it.
[laughter]
PR: There's one more ceremony to go through, as well.
ER: It’s this, here, isn’t it?
PR: Well, I can leave that with you unless you want to do it now.
ER: I’ll do it now.
PR: But more importantly, we have to take a contemporary record of your image and that’s why I’ve bought my camera. And, Elaine, because we very carefully managed to wheedle her into the tape.
ER: Best end of the tape, isn’t it Peter!
EC: I thought I’d skated round that one! But not, obviously!
ER: I think you’ve both been very, very good because I had the advantage of listening to Trevor’s tape that he did for the Museum. Scribbled. And Pam kept saying to me ‘Are you going to write that out properly’. So, what I didn’t already know I could scribble out on to there but that was very well done, Trevor. As the other one was, that I’ve said to you two or three times.
PR: Yes, a very cool customer.
ER: Is that your comb?
TC: Well certainly not mine.
PR: Yes, probably is.
ER: You’ve had a haircut so you don’t use it - yes but, ‘cause sometimes, I mean, I’ve not done one of these for years now, ‘cause they, sort of, wanted to move into computerization with the Oral History. And I wasn’t into it at that time and always has been. So, I thought, no, but Peter said would I come and hold his hand.
PR: Trevor said to me ‘yeah I’ll do it if you - as long as Eddie’s there.’
[General laughter]
ER: So, I was caught between the devil and the deep blue sea! But it’s been a pleasure.
PR: No, it’s always a pleasure to come here.
TC: Are you going to edit it a bit, are you?
PR: [long pause while he thinks] No, but they will, yes, the sort of ‘what happens next’ bit is - we ought to have said this at the beginning but in a way, we were up and away weren’t we? It stays in the Museum, as a physical tape but it’s also put electronically on to disks from which we can now index. I don’t know how you do it but once it’s transcribed - someone has to do that fairly long hand - they may choose to transcribe, you know, just a central bit. May do. Or the lot. But the bit that is transcribed is indexed so if someone wants to look up, say, Miss Goad There will be, over the 500 tapes we’ve got for 25 years, there will be all these references to Miss Goad.
TC: Hoad!!
PR: Hoad!
ER: Listen to Trevor Chamberlain in 2015.
PR: But you can - because it’s not an exact science - it’s not meant to be. You’re meant to just give impressions or as your memory provides it. They don’t want to check it with the history book to check that this date’s precisely right, but the references to Miss Hoad, there will be a combination - if someone says something really bizarre like for, example, the chap that said that Miss Williams had to be met at her front gate - well there will be other references to Miss Williams and if his is the only one it will be, it will stand out, and it is, but other people might have said other things but the consistent fact about her is that she ruled by fear which was your, you know, so when you’ve got enough former pupils of Miss Tilly Williams then you get somewhere near what it was like living with -
ER: [interrupting] - there was a lot of that in those days, I remember Miss Hornby. She was our first teacher at St Andrew’s. ‘Cause we were very young. And she was a big - she had a green ‘sit up and beg’ bike - and our first day at St Andrew’s we had name things and on mine it said Edward Roche, you see, and I put my hand up and said ‘Miss, you know, my name’s not Edward, my name’s Edmund, you see, and she said ‘No it isn’t [general laughter] it says here in the register and that is the name your parents must have given Miss Smith [Miss Smith was the Headmistress] It’s Edmund. And she got this bean cane, you see. And that came across the room [ER makes the sound of a cane whipping] across my fingers. And I went home for dinner and my Mum said to me ‘What’s the matter with you?’ and I said ‘ My hand hurts’ I was only four. And she said ‘What’s happened, what’s that?’ And I said ‘Miss Hornby hit me with her stick’ She said ‘Well what did you do wrong?’ I said - I told her - so she said - she came down and said ‘Excuse me, but his name’s Edmund’
EC: He knows his own name!
ER: But the other day my brother was on the phone and he said ‘Is your name with an O or a U?’ And I said ‘well it’s a U, you see. And he said ‘Well Grandad’s is with an O on the grave’. I said ‘Well I don’t know. I think my uncle, who was an Edmund, I think his was an O’. I don’t know. I don’t care really.
PR: She was a remarkable person, Miss Edie Hornby.
ER: She was old when -
PR: She was one of eleven children in a 2-bedroomed cottage in Frogs Hall just behind the Esso Garage.
ER: Just there where they rebuilt those cottages.
PR: And they weren’t an academic family at all. And one brother was a drunk. Some did well. And some didn’t. But it was a really cramped - and she stayed on at school, as a pupil teacher. And it wasn't until she was getting towards the end of her career that the governors said she ought to be ‘certified’, ‘certificated’ So she had some very basic training almost, you know, when she reached her pension because she just stayed from the age of 14, as a pupil teacher with the babies, as they always called the babies’ class.
ER: That room down the end.
PR: Coming out of that, I mean she wouldn’t have ever had - well that was the normal thing wasn’t it, to have physical punishment in school and intimidation. And the family would have been a -
ER: You got the cane at St Andrew’s that was for sure.
TC: So Tilly Williams, I mean she - she had her good points. Her good points were that she was - she instilled [pauses]
ER: Discipline.
TC: Well, discipline, certainly, and good manners [pauses] honesty, such things as that. Because she was always quoting - what do you call them - sayings, really.
ER: Quotations.
TC: Yes, ‘Truth’s half the battle’
ER: Proverbs.
TC: Proverbs, yes. ‘Honesty is the best policy.’ Things like that. But she was a stickler for all these - taking off your hat when you see somebody you know, another person, an older person and, when a hearse goes by, take off your hat and stand.
PR: Yes, that sort of thing.
ER: I remember Mary Kemp saying to me. You know Mary Kemp?22 I never knew quite the circumstances of their father’s death. He was never there.
PR: Leukaemia.
ER: And he died and it was the wartime because the army took over two big houses in North Rd where actually Win Brooks and Percy Brooks came and when he was in hospital [****indistinct] they were the second pair past Water’s Garage so it was the first pair and then these two big lumps. And the army took those over in the War as emergency barracks and the hearse was coming up North Rd from St Andrew’s and all these soldiers came out and formed a parade all along North Rd. And yet he’d not been in the War as far as [****indistinct] - there was more politeness. I remember when Ray was killed [means Eddie Roche’s brother, Graham, who was killed in a road accident aged 10] our blokes from the workshop even - stood outside Cold Bath [the Cold Bath pub23],
And one old bloke in particular he always wore his cap and they stood there.
TC: Nowadays you get people, men, the yobs and that, wandering into church, don’t take their hat off. You see them with their baseball caps, sitting having a meal at the table, you know.
ER: Playing with their phones.
EC: Lacking sort of respect.
TC: No sense of place or -
ER: - or they’ll walk along the pavement. And the number of times I’ve said to Pam ‘Keep where you are’. But she’ll get off the kerb to let people - and they’re not even a thankyou or -
EC: And they know you want to get by sometimes but there’s three or four of them and they don’t move, they don’t move, you know.
PR: Yes, well Trevor, let’s get the piccy done. I need a better light than indoors so if you stand on the doorstep.
TC: We can’t sit outside, no.
EC: TC: It’s raining!
EC: That’s what brought me in. You really want me, do you?
[*** omitted. Lots more clicks and question, arranging themselves, EC saying she’s not ‘done up’ for all this, and whether or not the photograph has come out]
EC: Do you want us smiling?
PR: Well, yes! It’s as the visitors to the Museum in the year 2060 will see you.
[more chatter and more clicks of the camera]
PR: Oh, that’s the woman Trevor Chamberlain married!
[more clicks of the camera]
ER: Has it come out Peter?
PR: Yes, that’s good. [more clicks of the camera and laughter]
ER: David Bailey! [liking PR to well-known English photographer and director, David Bailey, most known for his fashion photography and portraiture, and role in shaping the image of the Swinging Sixties]
TC: Have you got one of those? [obviously pointing to a photo]
PR: Yes.
ER: She’s a very attractive woman, isn’t she!
EC: Oh yes, Linda [Linda Radford, current mayor]
ER: That’s a good picture of you two.
EC: Yes, it’s not bad is it.
ER: Far better than the one of me cos someone said to me ‘what’s that bloke doing with that [the mace] - they thought it was something they were going to hit you on the head with.
TC: They’re both propping me up, you see.
ER: I always know this chap behind and I can never remember his name. The chap with the mace, Peter?
PR: How long ago?
EC: May, this year
PR: Yes, he’s Hertingfordbury. That’s Frank Ferguson
ER: She seems to be having quite a good time as being Mayor [the current mayor, Linda Radford] She’s going to retire from her shop.
EC: Well, her pharmacy
TC: Today, actually. 14th
ER: No, it was going to be but because the National Health Service, and all that, have got to give doctors and certain people more time to change documentation.
TC: So, she’s stuck with it a bit longer?
ER: A bit longer. So, she told Pam on Sunday. We see her at Church. I always felt so sorry for her because she had a terrible time.
EC: Yes, well I didn’t know him [referring to her husband, Russell]. Don’t think I’ve ever spoken to him.
ER: Well, we can remember him when he was OK. It’s like Danny. We can remember when he first came here. He was OK. So, I just hope she’s enjoying her time as being Mayor.
EC: I think so. I think - she phoned and she seemed to be enjoying it -
ER: But seriously. She’s got people like Peter. And Jenny [he means Sally] Newton is pretty good with her, isn’t she and one or two more. There’s a lot of people gone from the Council in the last year, isn’t there.
TC: Jenny Newton? What you mean -
PR: Sally. No, Sally Newton, he means.24 No, we three still write every morning. Three of us to say we are up and about and what we’re doing. And I know what kind of shampoo Linda is sampling from the shop - every day! [***passage omitted] No, we write and have quite a bit of business in common. Most of it is semi domestic and Linda always says ‘it’s what I would have muttered pointlessly to Russell if he had been there but there’s no one in the house to say this little ordinary detail and really mundane’. Quite a privilege for me really. But, on the other hand, it’s also a kind of safety call, isn’t it, really. If I were to miss, they would be wondering why -
ER: They would be knocking on your door wouldn’t they.
[*** passage omitted. Oral History forms filled in. Chatter omitted as TC ticks the relevant boxes consenting to how the interview will be used. When the form asks ‘what restrictions to be placed on this’ TC jokes ‘don’t mention when I first met Elaine’ and more banter]
EC: A long while ago. 1956 [when they first met]
ER: I was in the airforce then. If it was after February -
EC: No, it was January.
ER: Ah, I was waiting. I’d had the papers. A nice friend Reg Creasey pulled up outside the shop. In the snow, with his chains on the car. And Alan [Reg’s son] sitting there in the back. We went for lunch at Henlow Grange.25 ‘Have a cigar, boy. Have a cigar!’
[more filling in forms, and banter to and fro]
ER: That’s a big bungalow over there, isn’t it. [pointing out of the window] Well, it’s not a bungalow, is it?
EC: Well, they extended it. Of course you’ve seen all out here, did you? You remember what that was like? John Cooper’s They’ve been working on this since the Spring, I suppose.
ER: The thing is there’s nowhere to buy in this area at a reasonable price. And if they spend £50,000 on that it will be cheaper than the £20,000 it would cost you to move. Plus -
PR: He was always on about roots of trees.
EC: There is that.
ER: We had that trouble with our house. There’s a cherry tree next door and now he’s got a sycamore tree growing there. Yeah, we’ve got cracks in our walls. I just can’t be bothered with it any more. We’ve had the house done twice.
PR: Is he alright?26
EC: Yes, he’s up at Bramfield. Well, they’ve taken his car away now. I think he must miss that an awful lot.
ER: That place must do very well, Broad Oak [Broad Oak Manor Nursing Home at Broad Oak End on Bramfield Rd] ‘cause a lot of people go there.
EC: Yes, they seem to, yes.
ER: Quite a nice setting
EC: Oh, it is nice
ER: Do you remember when old Des O’Connor…27
PR: Tucked away though - you need a car.
EC: Yes, I knew he lived there, I did go there
[***short passage omitted]
ER: He was very good to our School. He was very good to St Joseph’s [the primary school in North Rd, Hertford]
PR: Well, for all his pushy character, something got him on in the world. He did have a remarkable - he was the tenth of ten children.
EC: Was he?
PR: Born behind King’s Cross Station.
EC: Really?
PR: With a drunk but mostly absent father. So, to have become the millionaire. It’s how you measure success in life, don’t you, if you use that one!
ER: Say speak as you find - I always (say). Him and George Stoten were a good pair.
PR: They worked together with each other.
ER: Yeah, they did - worked very, very well. Des was very good. I know they were involved in the swimming pool at St Joseph’s. He couldn’t do it but he could tell you who could, sort of, advise you, this and that, and we got this swimming pool built. He came to [****indistinct] he gave a cup to swimming for the kids, you know. A bit like old Reg Creasey, ‘cause, they used to moan about him but he was generous to a fault.
EC: Yes, you hear about these things. I mean some people moved in (to) the Verney28 some while ago and had it all done up and you heard people say, oh, they are not the typical villagers. We never see them. And then when we had a committee meeting here, we heard that they had been more than generous giving hundred pounds for the fete and things like that. While other people never hear that, you see.
ER: And with other people you’d be lucky to screw half a crown29 out of them, will you! Never judge a book by its cover.
EC: You can’t, you can’t, really. You might think things.
[Papers being looked up]
PR: Are you ready to just come and stand on the front door step.
EC: Who? Me? On my own?
PR: Well, I’ll be there!
[laughter]
EC: You don’t want the duster in my hand!
ER: Put a pinny on, Elaine!
[shuffling and movement]
ER: Did you enjoy that, Trevor?
TC: Yes, it’s alright. You never know what comes out, do you, really. Don’t know where it leads to when you’re talking.
ER: At least you could, can control what you say. You knew it was coming.
TC: Oh yes.
ER: I think sometimes. I did Joan Hayden30 and Joan had got a sharp tongue. But it was a lovely tape because we knew the area where she’d lived for a long time. I said to her ‘Do you know old Mrs. [****indistinct] ‘Oh she always needed a wash’ she’d say. The people who lived in the almshouses and all that sort of business. It was off the cuff with Joan, Renee’s mum. She quite enjoyed it, I think. Of course she could let go.
TC: Oh, I see, I didn’t know you had done one with her.
[more clicking of photos being taken]
ER: She’d had a hardish time during the War. Reg went off just like that. Because my uncle took that shop over when Reg went to the War. Because he was out of work - put it that way - at the time. And I think some of his “friends”, in inverted commas, put the money together for him to take it over. So that was that - of course, as you probably know, Joan couldn’t afford to stay in old Bull Plain cos they lived over the shop. So, she moved back in with her mum, and with Renee, of course. [she went home to her mother with Renee and lived there until Reg came out the army when Renee was about 6] It was, I think, a little cramped. It was living it again. Living over the shop and all that sort of thing.
EC: She was a nice person.
ER: And, of course, it was a big gap in time with Reg going and him coming back and being a POW. And it wasn’t easy because the conditions that he had been under. I really liked Reg - a lot - I liked him more than I liked my dad. He was so honest. It was almost not true, really. Really was. I mean he ran that business on his own. He could have done what he liked with it. But you knew exactly what was what. And that was it till the day he retired.
EC: A shame he died so early
ER: Well, yeah. I think that - he was never going to make old bones, I don’t think. I think the effects of life had probably taken a toll on him.
EC: Yes, being a Prisoner of War
ER: Yes, everything catches up with a lot of people like that.
TC: I’ve got an article on me coming out in the Artists Magazine in January
PR: Well, there’s a development area for you. In consequence of this you have your own file in the attic of the Museum.
TC: Really? [****indistinct]
ER: Get a copy of the magazine when it comes out. Take it up to County Hall and they would file it up there
PR: We’ll I’ll photocopy anything you give me like that - at any point - and put the photocopy in the Museum. That stays there, well at the moment, forever, as long as the Museum doesn’t [****indistinct]
EC: To be published in the middle of December, I think. Yes, celebrates the 70 years of painting
PR: Oh no, that will be an important thing. Nice one as well and important for the archive. Trevor on the doorstep, I’ll take another picture of you.
[*** passage omited. More banter about the photo and Peter and Trevor go outside]
ER: You’ll probably get an envelope with a stack of pictures - all copies. I won’t swear by it but he used to.
EC: Did he? Oh right! So, do you often do this then, Eddie?
ER: I haven’t done one for years because I was in the Oral History [Group] and they started getting into computers. They wanted to do this, and electronic that. And I just didn’t, I wasn’t into that sort of thing at all. And then, I mean, I’m not really now. It’s Pam – Pam - like she was talking to you about the iPad - she’s streets ahead of me.
EC: Oh, is she? Yes.
[Door thuds shut and PR and TC come back in]
ER: Give me a bit of leather and I’ll build you a pair of shoes. Give Pam an iPad and she’ll -
EC: - sort it!
ER: She’s her own worst enemy. But she’s a lot - I’ve always said to her over the years ‘you’re a lot cleverer than you make out’. Her mother always put her down. The other two girls [indistinct overtalking] Our biggest mistake was -
Tape ends
Footnotes: Following PR’s later reading of the transcript in January 2026
1. Eddie Roche (d.2022) was a well-known Hertford shoe repairer with a shop on St Andrew St. As a prominent oral historian and key member of the Hertford Oral History Group for many years, he was dedicated to preserving Hertford’s history and provided numerous recollections of town life and of historic local businesses, such as his own. He contributed much to local history projects with Hertford Museum and Our Hertford and Ware. He was a developer and curator of Hertford Grammar School’s (now Richard Hale School) Old Pupils' Heritage Room and a key figure in documenting the lives of former pupils, most notably contributing to the "Second World War Book of Remembrance" produced by Richard Hale pupils in 2012 to honour the 57 Old Boys who gave their lives fighting in the 2nd World War.
2. PR recalls as follows: ‘Mr Stalley was a famously strict long-serving Head at Cowper School Hertford. He lived at 4, London Rd, next to the School, but retired co-incidentally to Duncombe Rd, near Tilly Williams’s house). The great quantum of Hertford boys in TC’s era attended Cowper School from age 11. 80%.10% passed the 11+ to attend Hertford Grammar and 10%, like TC and Stephen McEnally, went elsewhere (TC to Ware Central and Stephen to Broxbourne Grammar, that provided a mixed gender education)’
3. PR later explains as follows: ‘At this point I tried to put on record a little anecdote which I hoped might add an insight. I wanted to share in the interview an idea of the gentle and mischievous humour our subject interviewee is capable of. I failed to capture full attention! It was time for tea and cakes. My anecdote was dislocated and mashed!
This is the anecdote. Some years earlier I'd bought a very nice Trevor Chamberlain female nude, entitled 'Linda'. Linda is seated with her back to the artist on some kind of stool or chair.
More than once at a private view of an art exhibition or some similar occasion with dignitaries present, crowded, wine glasses in hands, Trevor, the great man, the doyen, has waited until he saw I was doing the niceties with a VIP, carefully maintaining a decorum and showing my best social graces.
Then, bumping in close (to Lord Salisbury or Miss Dorothy Abel Smith or whoever I was talking with, and to me) knowing how I was trying to be so 'particular', so 'correct', he would say to me with a concerned twinkle before disappearing back into the crowd, "Has Linda turned round yet?" Thank you, Trevor!!
It was a clear and apparently concerned question. Lord Salisbury, or Miss Abel Smith would have detected the concern, understood that they were intended to hear the question, and wondered. Linda? A family member? Turned round ? I must explain. The question came after all from Trevor, the doyen of the assembled company but who oddly didn’t wait for a response. An explanation from me was needed and I was compromised. Afterwards, Trevor asked me how I got on! Thanks, Trevor.
4. PR corrects his statement as follows: ‘I was wrong. I muddled Miss Hoad, of 25 Villiers St who worked in Mr Palmer’s shop in St Andrew St, with Polly Betts, who lived in St Andrew St next to St Nicholas Hall, at today’s car park exit. For more detail on Polly Betts see Recording no: O 1994.26, Ivy Osborne; and Recording no: O 1998.5. Linda Graves and Percy Briggs]
Notes:
1 e.g. in Recording no: O 2001.12
2 See also Recording no: O2002.26 Brian Coates
4 Frederick William (Nanna)Thomas Recording no: 01999.8 and also Recording no: O 1995.5
5 Grace Law Recording no: O 1993.12. PR later notes that Grace was a much-loved nanny to Haileybury families. Notably, nanny to the Pickles family. Peggy Pickles, who married Alec Bentley, is in recording no: O 1993.3, along with Alec
6 Abel Smith, Dorothy - Memories of (Recording no: O 1996.2)
7 Chaseside Engineering Co. Ltd in Gashouse Lane, manufactured tractors, dumpers, fork-lift trucks and the renowned Mechanical Shovel
8 It was actually at 15 Railway St. See here https://britishrecordshoparchive.org/shops/quastette/
9 Recording no. O2000.10
10 Mentioned in a number of recordings e.g. Dorothy Brett’s: Recording no: O 1996.25
11 It would appear they were indeed related. Spackman, though sometimes confused with "Packman", was related to Tessa Chestnutt (née Spackman); she was a cousin or similar family member. She married vet, Andy Chestnutt. See Recording no: O2003.4, Tessa Chestnutt
12 Ralph Whitlock (1914–1995) well-known Wiltshire farmer, broadcaster, conservationist, journalist and author of over 100 books
13 Recording no: O1993.14
14 Recording No: O2005.1
15 Recording no: O2001.14
16 Gordon Acres is referred to a few times in, among others, recording no O 1994.14 Jim O’Smotherly
17 Recording no: 02002.29
18 Recording no: 0 1994.12
19 Teddie (Elizabeth Violet) Johnson (1925–2022). Married to Bruce Johnson. Prominent member of All Saints' Church. Documented her personal memories of VE Day in Hertford, which are preserved by the church as part of the town’s local history of World War II
20 Complex of 55 flats on Windsor Drive, Sele Farm, designed for assisted independent living, whilst also providing support and communal facilities
21 the daughter of Jill Geall, (recording No: O2023.5). Both were former mayors of Hertford
22 married Raymond Wingate. As Mary Wingate Recording no: O2004.1
23 built 1822, near Eddie Roche’s shop. Was at 2 North Road, the north side, at the connection between North Road and St Andrew Street, on the site of the then Ebenezer Strict Baptist Chapel and, in 2012, ‘The Ebe’ – Ebenezer Court, North Road
24 Recording No: O2025.4 with Barbara Manning
25 Henlow Grange, Bedfordshire, the well-known destination spa under the Champneys brand The village is also known for RAF Henlow
26 means John Cooper. Recording no. O 2009.4
27 Desmond Francis O'Connor Mayor of Hertford, 1970. Recording no: O2004.14
28 originally called Waterford House on a site once part of the Goldings estate. Goldings was opened in April 1922 as The William Baker Technical School, a hostel for boys from Dr Barnardo's needing a trade. The name "Verney" has historical ties to the Verney family, though their primary estates were in Buckinghamshire, not Waterford
29 pre-decimalisation - in 1971 - British and Irish coin two shillings and sixpence (2/6), or 12.5 pence
30 Recording no: O2001.4