Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Riddle, Jim (O2023.1) |
| Interviewee | James (Jim) Riddle (JR) |
| Interviewer | Geoff Cordingley (GC) |
| Date | 15/03/2023 |
| Transcriber by | Geoff Cordingley (using Otter AI for initial transcript) |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O2023.1
Subject: James (Jim) Riddle (JR)
Date: 15th March 2023
Venue:
Interviewer: Geoff Cordingley (GC)
Transcriber: Geoff Cordingley (using Otter AI for initial transcript)
Typed by: Geoff Cordingley
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
GC: This is Geoff Cordingley interviewing James (Jim) Riddle on 15th March nineteen twenty, (laughs), 2023 at the Hertford Cricket Club.
So Jim where were you born?
JR: I was born in Barrow Bridge County Down, Northern Ireland on 20th October 1941. My father was stationed there during the war. He, he lived there for while in the army. When I was born I was only there two weeks.
From there I moved back to where my grandmother lived in 2 Clyde Terrace, Hertford. My earliest memories are from that period, from there. I can remember the war. I can remember different things in the war. Do you want to hear that?
I can remember like the sirens going off and I can remember my mother picking me up from bed, 'cos my father was away during the war for six years. I mean he'd come home when he was demobbed, not demobbed, when he had leave. So he would come home, maybe just come home for a couple of weeks. I used cry when he came home because I couldn't remember him and then cry when he went back because I got so used to him being there. But it must have been horrible for him in those times to have that.
But I can remember the sirens going off in Hertford and my mother, my mother, picking me up and we slept under the table. And then I can remember, if they went off, my grandmother, in those days there used to be a coal bunker under the stairs, in the house, and I can remember we'd shut the door on her and for some reason we'd lock it from the outside and she'd be in there in the dark, and then when the siren went off and it was all clear, we unlocked it and she was standing there. I think she went into there to have cigarette or something like that.
And I can remember when the bomb dropped on Old Cross. I can remember my Mum was out shopping and I was so upset, but my gran assured me she was alright, but she didn't know, Then she came home, so that was great.
I can also remember my first day at Faudel Phillips. I lived in Horns Mill then and, my mother used to catch, we used to catch a bus from Horns Mill to Abel Smith, ah, Faudel Phillips School. And I can remember the first day, I've still got friends from that first day, and everyone started to cry and I wondered what they were crying about. Yeh, Faudel Phillips was Faudel Phillips. But the food, we had dinner brought in which wasn't very good.
I was trying to think, oh, yes, in those days the heating was a cold fire. I can remember later on at school if you misbehaved you were sent to the front of the school. In those days if you misbehaved, you were sent to the back of the class so you were so far away from the coal fire, so it was completely reversed.
I can remember, the caretaker coming in and doing a coal fire. In each classroom that was the only heating you had and the toilets were outside in the playground.
From there I went to Abel Smith. I was there just a year and then I went onto Morgans Walk. It was 1950 when Morgans Walk was opened up. I went there to a brand new school which was fantastic just to be there. The cooking was done inside, within the school. I think Morgans Walk was the happiest I was ever at school. I stayed there for, I think, 3, 4 years.
From there, I took my eleven plus and passed it. I went for an interview, in those days you did two sections of the 11 plus. You passed it and then you had to have an interview. I had my interview at Richard Hale School which was Hertford Grammar then and failed it. I'd put as my second choice as Cheshunt Grammar and had an interview there and got it. So in fact I was travelling every day from Horns Mill to Cheshunt Grammar. So I'd catch the bus at Horns Mill at half past seven in the morning, that was the 341, and got the 310 to Cheshunt. I did that for five years.
GC: Have you any idea why you failed the interview at Hertford Grammar?
JR: No. no idea at all. I didn't, my brother has got this theory because he went there when he passed. They reckon, he reckons it was because we lived in a prefab and it wasn't quite the thing to be living in a prefab in those times.
But, the Headmaster was Reg, Mr. Moxon, at Cheshunt Grammar. I knew his son, we were at school at Morgans Walk. He didn't go there, he went on to Winchester. So that was it. So I was travelling that distance. And it was so far away so that each day I had that extra on to my travelling and never got in until 6 o'clock at night and then if I wanted to stay and do sports it was later.
GC: Were you happy at Cheshunt?
JR: Happy-ish but never as happy as at Morgans Walk. I mean Morgans Walk was fantastic.
GC: And you were involved in the sport?
JR: Oh, yeh. I mean, I was involved with the cricket and the rugby. I mean it was the first time I'd played rugby and you only played rugby winter and after Christmas. There was hockey if you wanted it, but I was always a bit scared of hockey. (Laughs) I used to think compared, you know, the sticks and everything. But yeah, I enjoy, enjoyed the rugby, really enjoyed that. So I played all the way through from under, from the junior, from 11, right the way through to the senior side, played that and played my cricket and did exactly the same, right the way through the school.
GC: Representing the school?
JR: Yeh, representing the school. And then obviously, I joined County Hall, but actually my first Cricket Club was here, Hertford. It was my first one. I joined it, used to come up here for the nets, but I only got one game. And that game was against County Hall. And I remember we'd got beaten quite badly. So there was always a beer match in those days. And it got, I think the beer matches because they were friendly, were more important than the actual match because, so, I then, I was number 11 originally, and then I was put in number 11 again and didn't get a game and I thought well, and then quite a few of my friends were playing at County Hill, so then they said why don't you come here and so that's where I went.
GC: So what age were you then?
JR: I was 14 and a lot of us played then. And so it, but if there was a school game, obviously I couldn't play on a Saturday. I can remember Richard Hale playing there, their colts side, as you went up the drive on the right hand side that was the main pitch. My first game was there against Hertford for Cheshunt Grammar. I think it was, I think I was 11 then, but that's how it used to be because the drive was quite long then wasn't it in those days. So that was where you played then. But, it was good, the sport and if you played rugby for any of the school sides, it was, you were taken to Twickenham to see the inter-varsity game. And that was free and you used to go by coach and that was just a thank you for playing school rugby. And the cricket was quite good.
Obviously my sports master later on was Laurie Cluff who then was playing here, so then I came and played with, which was quite ironic. So that was how it…Obviously we played cricket at primary school. Morgan's Walk, played cricket. So, yeah, we, we always played a primary school and that's when I first came across Laurie Wright because Laurie was playing for Port Vale. So that's how and then obviously, in those days, which isn't happening now, you played cricket at primary school.
GC: Did you play many matches?
JR: Yeah, oh yeah, we used to play as many of the local sides I mean, we would play and football when you're playing you played Abel Smith, any of the, Bengeo, Port Vale, any of the local schools you would play against, but my first game of football I played for school was Abel Smith. That was, although I was there just a year. But Tony Howe, who then became involved with Hertford cricket, who I knew was the captain of me when I played at primary school and it's ironic how much it all turns round. You've always played sport against or with these people all your life, which is great. And it's a great, I always say it's a great leveller. Not only that, I've always said to my children, if you play sports, socially, you'll always have friends, wherever you go, so you've always had that.
GC: So how did you get to away matches? Did you have to walk or get a bus or?
JR: Yeh, we got the bus. (Laughs) We'd cycle. I was playing table tennis as well. I used to play table tennis for Bailey Youth, actually, I played my first football for Bailey Youth Club. It used to be Bailey youth club. So that I played my first football for Bailey youth club and I used to play table tennis for them. And we used to have to cycle, if you played your table tennis you had to cycle that was all evening. We'd even cycle from here to Newgate Street and places like that. If you told people that now they would say: it would be Newgate Street, Hoddesdon. But you cycled, that this way. It was the only way to get there. I can remember getting stopped (laughing) in Fore Street by the police because we were coming back and my light wasn't working. I'd just got a little hand torch that I was shining. And the policeman said, “But what's that?” But anyway in those days they just let you off.
But now so yeah, My first football and in those days, rugby you always played for your school side and it was always a Saturday morning. You'd play rugby Saturday morning, and I'd play soccer Saturday afternoon. None of this you couldn't play two sports in a day you'd play the two sports. And then when I left school, I was still playing rugby. Old Cestrians was like Cheshunt Grammar School, and it was too far, my dad didn't have a car so it was too far to go and Old Hertfordians was a closed shop and it was for Richard Hale boys not Cheshunt Grammar boys. So I then took up football. And I played. I had two years with Hertford. I played two years at Hertford. I had terrible knee trouble. So then I packed up Hertford but still played the local football so I was playing for Bailey Youth. I think I played for Hertford Heath and I played for a Sunday side called Locomotives. But aged 30 got fed up with that and took up rugby again. And then Hertford was no longer a closed shop. It was open it was then called Hertford, not Old Hertfordians but Hertford Rugby Club so I then join that and and then been involved that all my life.
I don't think, I think I've not been back to Hertford Town Football Club since that time. So Blimey, when was that? The thirties, when was in the 70s I haven't been back to Hertford Town Football and seen a football game there since then. So it's all been rugby and cricket. I'm trying to think. Yeah, so then I played for County Hall for a long time, had a great time. In those days, County Hall. There were no leagues. It was just friendlies. And we used to play all, the friendly sides Welwyn Garden City, Hertford, but no leagues and then the league came in. And County Hall. I think you had to play five games against other sides before you could get in but you didn't play the leagues, but you didn't play every side you've done you play certain sides and it was done on an average, which wasn't.
But in the end, it came that County Hall couldn't fulfil those details. So the league was different and I wanted I was in the third's then and I wanted a challenge. And I was playing rugby with Harry Galbraith. He was kept in here. And Harry kept on to me about coming to Hartford. And then the end. I'd got fed up with playing at County Hall. You won't get into games to that ability and gradually, the standard was getting lower and lower, so I came to Hertford. And then obviously from the first game I was picked to play for the seconds but I think I'm not sure that Laurie Wright or Laurie Cluff was injured so I came straight into the firsts on that Saturday. But in those days if you played Hertford you had to start off in the twos. But then, but I was lucky that and then so, i played all my cricket there, which was great, so…
GC: And what were you? What did you do? Bat, bowl?
JR: I batted, I was a batsman, opening bat, so I used to bowl occasionally but I mean not much but I used to bat. It was a good, I mean it was, I came the second year. Hertford had won, in the mid-70s, won the league the year before and then I came for the next, I think we won it for the next four or five years on the trot. So it was a very, very successful side. There were some really good cricketers here. But it was one of those sides where everyone could bat, even down, I mean, Mick Eldred was number 11 usually, but I mean, Roger could bat there was Stewart Craddock and all, someone always came off. You know, you could be in real trouble but everyone. We were a senior generation some of us and they reckon our fielding was so good because we would panic that we didn't want to run after a ball. But there was none of this diving about or anything like that.
GC: Can you remember any particular matches that you stared in?
JR: Yeah, I can, well, when we played Southgate that was always, that was always a game when we played Southgate, ahm. They weren't in the league but there were some good players who played for Southgate, I remember. The county players had to come and if they wanted to play, if they were overseas they had to qualify for two years playing. So they had Will Slack played for Southgate and in the early days Tuffnell bowled for them. But he wasn't, he just played for them and we never thought he was that great and then suddenly next thing he's in the Middlesex side and then after that he is the, he's playing, so. It's always been a real good standard, when I look now the standard of fielding in sides now is fantastic compared with how it was and that's the big difference. I mean, the batting and bowling, yeah, but the fielding is the big difference, and when I first started, that's incredible.
GC: Were you playing on uncovered pitches? Did you have any covers or?
JR: No covers! No covers! And you could play, in the early days, maybe at County Hall you could play on a very hard wicket on the Saturday, it poured with rain on the Sunday, and so the next day you were playing on a wet wicket but you adapted. You know, you adapted to how it was at that time. I could always play on a wet wicket. You know the ball lifting and you can always play on it but you don't get that now. But then covers came on but they'd only come on for maybe just the bowlers' run up, well the end bit by, by the wickets. That was it in the early days. And then it came completely covered, and stuff like that.
What was I gonna, I enjoyed my football but, I enjoyed the rugby, with my sport. I've actually played football for Hertford, cricket for Hertford and rugby for Hertford, so I've done the three. I think rugby and cricket by far, the better social side, game to play rather than football. Football, you'd play, finish, and that was it. Whereas rugby, I used to say towards the end of my rugby career, that after I'd played that's 20% of the enjoyment, now comes the other 80% which was in the bar afterwards. And cricket was to that degree as well. But as I said, you tended to get great friends. I've got great friends all over the county through playing against sides, rugby and cricket. Whereas it doesn't seem to happen, which is unfortunate. It doesn't seem to happen as much now where sides don't socialise as much as we used.
I mean, at the end of the game, it used to be at least a couple of jugs each you'd buy but then I suppose with drink driving and everything like that. But I just think it's a great shame that sides don't socialize so much. I mean, even any of the sides and often on the rugby if we were coming back past a rugby side, we might be playing at Harpenden and then we might win on Welwyn Golden City on our way back to have a couple of drinks because we got friends so that that was how it was.
Is there anything else you want?
GC: When did you stop playing?
JR: I stopped playing. I got, I got to the age of 50 and I wasn't enjoying it any more. I always said I'd play sport until I didn't enjoy it. And I was tending to walk from first slip to first slip for about three hours and in the end I was thinking what am I doing here, doing this for three hours. So at my last game was for Dave Williams's I think it was his 50th birthday and he had a game here, I got 100. And I said right that's it I'll finish. And people said will you come back and I said no, I've finished. So that was that. It was my last game but it was, I just thought I'd had enough.
I tried to, I tried (laughs) to umpire for a while but I found when I started appealing at square leg and then trying to field the ball at square leg as well. I thought , “No, I don't think this is for me.” And I can remember a game when, I think, Hertford got 200 or something and the opposition by about I think was about an hour and a half to go shut up shop and I did actually mutter to the bowler, “Just hit his pads, just hit his pads.” (laughs) And I thought, “No, so umpiring is not for me.” I take my hat off to people who do it and scoring. I've done the odd scoring but that wasn't for me.
But no, and then rugby as well. I got, I got to mid 40s and I was getting, they were talking about head injuries, and I was getting two or three different, you know, headaches. And the doctor said you're best to pack up rugby before it packs you up. So that's when I packed up rugby. I had a season. And I played for the term, well it wasn't even the full side at Hertford at the end. And Neil Young, who I played with and captained as well, packed up and we both packed up together. But, no, I've had some, some great times.
I was trying to think of different things I can think of Hertford. How it's, I always think it's ironic Hertford. I often think they must be the only town that builds a bypass that goes through the town. I can never, I can't think of any other town and because we're suffering from it now.
No, different things. Hertford has changed. I'm not sure whether for the better or what. I can we remember it used to be a lovely town, lovely shopping place but it's definitely altering to how I can remember it. I can remember, when there was actually two cinemas in Hertford, Hertford County and Hertford Castle. If you, the county was the one that you went. And I can remember the days when you queued. You queued and queued just to get into Hertford County to watch the cinema. And if you missed a film there, you then went to Hertford Castle. But Hertford Castle towards the end was, was quite a wreck really. I can remember going in there and we were watch, we were watching the film. And the seats weren't. you sat there and everyone and if you stood up quickly quite a few of them flipped back the whole row of seats, (laughing) would let you on to stuff. And yeah, so, different things.
I've still got quite a few great friends I've had all my life. I was home, from when we lived in a prefab. When my Dad was demobbed, he came out the Army in '45 and didn't have a job but then went to work on the buses. And he worked there until 1947. Then he worked for Stephen Austin's where he finished. They then were where the Hertford House is now, the Mercury office but that was the actual Stephen Austin's printing factory. The weight of the machinery became too much for the, for the building, so they moved to Caxton Hill where they still are now. When they first were at Caxton Hill there was nothing else at Caxton Hill, nothing, just Stephen Austin's at the top of the hill. My dad worked there until he retired.
And my Mother, she, in those days, the wife looked after the children and originally it was just me. My brother was born 10 years after me and I always, I always say that 10 years, 1941 to my brother 1951 was my Mum and Dad's shy period but my, (laughing), so he was born 10 years after me. And it's strange, you know, having a younger brother. He said it's worse having an elder brother to having a younger brother because 10 years different. So you go through that period together but so we've both always been sporty that my dad was sporty. But yeah, so my dad was demobbed. And then when we lived in 2, Clyde Terrace and then in 1947, we moved to the prefabs in Horns Mill. And we were there, my brother was born there in the prefabs. And we then, once my brother was born we moved to a house in Cecil Road.
So originally we lived in 97, Cecil Road then moved down out of the prefabs to a house, which was just down the road and lived there until I got married in 1964. And moved out there but my Mum and Dad were there all their lives until my Dad died in 19, my Mum died first 1989 and two months later, my Dad died in 1990. So we moved out the house but they were Council owned, all of Horns Mill, there was the old estate and the new estate. We were the new estate, which was built and I can remembered it was built, in the obviously in the state was built in the 40s, late 40s, but I can remember German prisoners of war working on those buildings. Because I remember, we used to stack up the bricks for them and they used to give us a penny for doing it. But it was, a lot of the labourers there were German prisoners of war which we, we just accepted and that was just how they were. And that was it. So we lived there. As I said my Mum and Dad lived there. And then I, I think I've put there that I when I left school I worked as an accountant at Wood Brothers as wages clerk and then
GC: In Ware?
JR: Yeh, in Ware. I was on two pounds, two pounds, it was two pounds 15 shillings, two pounds 75 pence a week. And then I got a rise up to three pounds a week. And because quite a few of my, in those days I stayed on at school until I was 16, but a lot of my friends and they finished at 15. They were at the Cowper School, which was the original school to Simon Balle, the one before it. But they left at 15. And so if I was going out with them, they had money and I didn't. Then after two years doing an accountancy course, and I went into print, I went into the binary side did an adult apprenticeship. And then in the end, I worked through and became binary manager there and did that for a while and then I…
GC: That was at Stephen Austin's, was it?
JR: Yeh, Stephen Austin's.
And then I moved there to another printing firm Quadrant, got fed up with that and then went into, work for Pearl Assurance until I retired in 1996. I retired, ahm, I retired at 56. I packed up then 'cos my wife was terminally ill. So I had two years with her and but then she died in 1998. So I've been retired since 1996, which is fantastic, loved every minute of it. And because I get, I put my, I put money into a pension, they put money into a pension, and my pension's inflation linked so it's fantastic. I think Pearl who I worked for can't wait for me to pass on. (Laughs)
Because my, my pensions really good, but then you put your money into it. And so that was my, that was my working career. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that work. And, but in those days, when you first started in a job, your father would always say you want to stay there, lots of people started in one job and stayed there for the rest of their lives, never changed. That's how it was. You had to start at the bottom, then you'd work your way up through a company. But now it's not like that, but that's how it used to be. You'd start from the bottom and worked your way up. When I worked for the insurance company, I still got some great friends who I met through, it was the door-to-door insurance. So that was it. But yeah, I still got some great friends through that, and ah…
GC: But you worked in the office?
JR: No I was out.
GC: Oh, you were out selling insurance.
JR: Yeah. I'll tell you the story. You can wipe it out if you like. I can remember, because my name was Jimmy Riddle. It was like and I can remember we used to do a lot of cold canvassing in those days, and so you'd knock at the door. And on my way in I used to say Oh, my name is Jimmy Riddle. And people go oh, Jimmy Riddle that's good. Yeah. I can remember knocking at this door at Pinehurst and I knocked at the door and I could hear this shouting and screaming coming out. I thought I shouldn't have, shouldn't have knocked at this door. Anyway, the door flung open, and this bloke was standing there got the vest, tattoos, all up. 'Yeah, what do you want?' I said, I did my spiel My name is Jimmy Riddle and he looked at me and said, 'Well piss off Jimmy Riddle.'
(Laughter)
And people said, 'What did you do?' I said, 'I went! What do you think I was gonna do.' I just went.
(Laughter) But yeah, so um, the different little stories like that, but I enjoyed it, enjoy it. And the people I worked with were great. You only met them once a week when you were paying in, in in those days, you paid in weekly. And you all the money had to, you had to balance it, but you'd then all meet in the office and it was great. You then maybe go for a meal with them at lunchtime, but then you'd make up the neck. But then you'd be out working and collecting your money and trying to sell business. So that was it, ahm… Can you think about what will…
GC: You stopped playing rugby at 46 or mid 40s. You stopped playing cricket at 50. But you've made considerable contributions to these clubs since, haven't you?
JR: Yeah, well the rugby, when I played, 'cos then I had Graeme. And the mini rugby was going which was very early stages of mini rugby starting and I took Graeme up there at six and he started playing straight away for the under eights, which was quite a good side. They had Don Scrace who finished up playing for Wasps and people like that. And so he played and the first year I was there came the end of it, the person who was chairman of the or chairman/coach, running the mini rugby wanted to pack up and there was no one to take over. So they then asked me would I take over which I did. So then I coached him through but then became chairman of the minis and coached. And then, so that was the under eights, nines, 10s, and 11s. And then from under 12 onwards you went into the youth side, so I then became chairman of the Hertford youth section. So that was under 12s, 13s, 14s, 15s, 16s and 17s in those days. And so then I coached, became chairman there, I packed up coaching when they were under seventeens. And then they were, then they went into the Colts, but I then became chairman of the Colts as well. And they had coaches from the main club who coached the Colts, and from then, then on in, I still kept in contact with them. And I've always support the rugby ever since. So I then finished chairman there still kept involved with the club, through different things served on all the committees all the way through, and then was asked, would I become President? I think that was in 1915, as well, I think the same as…
GC: 2015!
JR: 1915! 2015! It felt like 1915.
(Geoff laughs)
JR: And I did that. I was there for three, President there and at the same time took over because Brian, Brian Box was president then and Brian wanted to not do any more. So I took over from Brian in 2015, as well. So I was doing president at the rugby club and president of the Cricket Club. The president at the Cricket Club was much easier really than the rugby club. The rugby club's quite intense, because you're doing, you're doing a speech at home and welcoming the opposition every other Saturday and doing the away every other Saturday, which was quite hard work. So I did that for three years. At the rugby club then they, you could, when you became chair, President, they voted you in for two years. And then the committee could vote you to do another two years but I did another year and I said I'd had enough then. But I always felt like the rugby at Hertford, the President has taken the, there was quite a lot of concern to them about the main club and to me it was a rugby club, so I always made sure that I watched every side for minis downwards to the youth and the Academy which was in the colts and the main clubs and all the sides that played in that. And then, so I then did that for three years but did it at the cricket club six years, which was I stayed on for six, yes, for six years and then felt come and it was my turn to pack up and then hand it over to a younger man. (Chuckles)
But yeah, so it was, enjoyed it and still involved. I'm still involved with the rugby, go up there every Saturday. And obviously Graeme, my son played for every side right the way through and very successful playing for the main club. And now it looks as though he could be voted in to become the next president this coming year and this June provided he's vote in it. And we call it, it's like The Godfather group.
(Laughter)
JR: So it's just how it is and obviously my brother Eric has been so involved. Eric always bought in cricket. I can remember we used to play and our mum used to bowl to us on the lawn. There was our mum would bowl and I would bowl to Eric and being that ten years older I used to wind him up with things and, but he's, and he's still playing his cricket. Been a great rugby player. Ten, eight to ten years at Saracens for the main club and he started at Hertford and Saracens wanted him to play. I think he played 30 old games or 20 odd games for Hertfordshire rugby. And then they wanted him, Saracens, so he went to play at Saracens for eight to ten years, successful. Came back to Hertford got a terrible injury in a final. Hertford playing in a final, virtually hasn't played since but he's still been involved with the rugby. He got as far as he could coaching wise, with everything. Did a load of coaching, in their coach round schools, junior schools, and obviously Eric was a sports master.
He started at Sele School and I think he went to Bishop's Stortford, Hailey Hall school. He taught and then he, he took retirement but carried on coaching, which he's done and his cricket he's still playing now he's still playing, he's come all the way through. Although neither of us played for Hertfordshire senior cricket side, but I in those days I wasn't really interested to play there just rather play my club rugby, club cricket and, and Eric I think Eric was good enough to play but he didn't get selected so we didn't but he played his rugby for Hertfordshire which was, which was great. So we've always been involved sport wise. And Eric is still now. I mean he's captain of Hertfordshire over 60s, he's now captain of Hertfordshire over 70s. So he's still involved with it, whereas I packed up at 50, he's still carried on, sport is still his life, especially cricket, loves watching his rugby but cricket he still wants to play.
GC: When you first came to Hertford you lived in Clyde Terrace?
JR: Yeh, 2, Clyde Terrace.
GC: Was that in Bircherley, Bircherley Green?
JR: No that's Foxholes. That was a council estate, Foxholes Avenue. And then there was that whole estate there. And it's ironic, really, because that's where I started after two weeks, two weeks when I was born and came back to live there. And now I'm back living well, at the end of Foxholes still on that estate in Braziers Field. So I've done the complete circle, but I'm only 200 yards away from where I grew up, originally.
(Geoff laughs)
JR: So I'm back there. That was I mean, I can remember when we lived in Clyde Terrace, they'd often, because, there was quite a few bombs dropped in this area. We came to understand sometimes if they'd bombed London and they hadn't got rid of their bombs, they dropped, the German planes would drop their bombs on their way back out. And I can remember often it must have been at the end of the war that they were digging pits down, trying to get the bombs out. But in those days, they tried to block it off and we used to climb down into (laughs) and when I think back and you think blimey what was going on?
And then obviously at Horns Mill, when we lived at Horns Mill. We used to cycle everywhere. So you knew everywhere where different things were and I can remember one of the great things was to walk through Bayford Tunnel from Horns Mill, we'd walk through the tunnel.
And I can remember being on the train once, I was with my wife then and I was in late 20s. And we were going through Bayford Tunnel and I was telling my mum I was going oh yeah, we used to stand here and there's little areas where you can stand back away from it. And I said you used to get the steam and the smoke and everything because it was. And my mum said, “if I'd a known that I wouldn't have slept at night that you were coming through here.”
(Laughter)
JR: You know that was it. You just walked through, you didn't think there was a problem. But so no, that was, that was fine.
We'd walk and be out all day either playing sport. And in those days, you could play in the street. There was hardly any cars so you'd played. If a test match was on you'd play cricket in the street and the so that's what you did during the summer. But if there's, the football was on, the Cup Final, you'd play football in the street. And if there was tennis on, Wimbledon, you played tennis in the street and you could then, so that's where you played.
And there was local fields to us at Horns Mill we used to call 'The Pit' and that's where a lot of us grew up playing our football. We used to play football on a Sunday morning I can remember there used to be two sides against each other. And you'd get there and you'd pick the two sides. And then people who turned up, you used to go pudding or beef. There used to be two and they used to say to one captain, right pudding or beef. And if he called beef the person who was beef used to go on that side, so we thought that was the fairest sides. It would be the first one to 10 would be half time and at 20 the game would finish. And that was it.
GC: How long did it take you to get to twenty?
JR: I suppose we used to play, we used to get there at 10 and finish about 12. But my dad wasn't all that religious but he would never let me play sport on a Sunday afternoon. There was no sport on a Sunday. You didn't play football.
GC: You played Sunday morning.
JR: We played Sunday morning but no Sunday afternoon. But if I wanted to, I chuck my boots over the gate and he wouldn't know and then you'd go off, but he had some clue that you'd do that.
And I can remember the first winter we moved to Horns Mill, 1947. It was a terrible winter.
And I can remember we backed onto a wood and course all the men were going cutting some of the trees, because you could go, you could go and get a bag of coke from the gasworks, which was down Gashouse Lane, which is now, I can't think
GC: Marshgate Lane?
JR: Marshgate Lane, yeh. And you could go and I can remember my Dad taking a pram and you'd get a sack, you could get a sack o' coke for nothing and you had to wheel it home. And that was it. But the places were awful cold and I can remember them, some of the men and the police then found out and they then came so a lot of them were chucking the wood over the back and I can remember when the police, when my Dad was getting in there but it was so cold in the Prefabs. You got frost on the walls inside It was so, so cold. Everyone survived.
GC: It hardened you up.
JR: Yeah. Funny. I was just looking at the dog here. I remember our first dog Clipper in those days the dog stayed in the shed they didn't come in the house. That's where they stayed, they stayed in the shed. And I can remember our dog was Clipper and he stole the joint of meat on a Sunday, He stole the joint of meat. And my Mum went and got mustard and smeared it all in his mouth. And I can remember the dog sniffing and that, but he never ever stole it again. It never ever did it again and that was it. And I thought bloody… I'm not gonna steal anything.
(Laughter)
GC: Did you manage to get the joint back and eat it?
JR: I think my Mum did, yeh. She never cottoned on but to lose a joint meat then was...
But yeah, but that's, but my dad used to cycle everywhere. My grandfather used to work at De Havilland's, they lived in, obviously in Foxholes Avenue. And he used to cycle from Foxholes Avenue to the De Havilland's at Hatfield every day, on that Hatfield road and then back and it was so, but he used to cycle, cycle there and cycle back and I was in it, and he was never late, God knows what time it used to take.
They used to cycle that, because, well, he saved money, but he'd do it. And he'd always stop. It was, it was The Dolphin, but it was called the Great Eastern and then it was by the station. And it used to be The Dolphin. And he would get there and he'd always have his two pints of beer. And then I can remember it and then when he retired he had was two pints of beer lunchtime, and his two pints of beer in the evening. I can remember my Gran said you're gonna die in that pub. And he did. One Sunday dinner time, It was the day after I got engaged.
He went in the pub, we'd gone into the White Hart, my Dad was in there. He'd just got the pint he just collapsed and died on the floor. And he did he did and he died in there. So but, but he was happy. That was their life then. And he's two pints and he did and he cycled everywhere.
GC: One, one thing that interests me is your relationship with Eric because being 10 years older, it must have been quite difficult having this sort of…
JR: Yeah, but he was like having, yeah, it was a younger brother, just having but never really thought. I mean. I mean, he loves telling people like now. If you look at my brother, that's how I'm gonna to be in 10 years time. And I was going yeah, if you're lucky, mate you are. But as far as I think I've told you, I tell everyone he's my dad. Now, Yeah, have you met my Dad? And but it No, it wasn't, it was great. And you know, people said, Oh, are you jealous? I've never, you know, we've never been jealous of each other. We've always been proud of each other what we've done, you know, whatever he does. I'm so proud of him. Although he doesn't like to let out but you're you're really pretty, you know, young, younger brother what you do. But it's strange, because Eric now is when he became 70, I can.. I can come to terms with my age, but I find it hard to come to terms that my brother, my younger brother is 70. I find that very hard. You know, we've always been close because sport wise and stuff we've always been and then when we play our sport together.
I mean, I didn't. I mean, I played a couple of games of rugby, but never that to that degree of how good he was. I mean, Eric was, was a really, really good rugby player. You know, and I think he was doing sports, when he was sport's master as well. And I think with a bit more dedication, he could have gone much further. But I mean, he was playing in the top sides, but yeah, if so he had never, you know, we've always worked with each other and never against each other. And never thought, never jealous of each other just proud of what we've done, each other's done. So that's it, but yeah, he tends what used to annoy me like, it still does, golf. I really struggled at golf to hit. People say cricket, you can hit it. But it wasn't like that. Eric's got this natural ability where you can just pick up a and his golf''s really good as well, but that's that's how it is. But that. So that's always been great. And we've all been always been interested in things that happen at Hertford. I mean, he's Richard Hale. I mean, he became president of the Old Hertfordians Association but really involved with stuff that's gone on at Richard Hale, which is, which is great. That's it.
GC: You didn't have any involvement with Cheshunt Grammar School after you left?
JR: No, not. Well, I mean, I've still got friends. Still, the people we played with, I mean, Mick Eldred came and played here and I went to school with Mick. So we had that. And Laurie Cluff, obviously, was our sports master. And it was strange, because when we left school and Laurie had left, we used to tell Laurie, what was going on at school, and, you know, the… he didn't know about and he was telling us things that we didn't know about that was also going on at Cheshunt Grammar School. And I would, it was great that we had that. But yeah, Cluffy was quite a character and really good. But lots of the stuff at school. And I was saying, I've still got those friends that we've always had from those school days, and we've come through. When I go to Old Cross Tavern, which is my local, there's two or three still came up there. And we often say when we first met, at maybe four or five, still 70 odd years later, we're still best of mates. And we, when we meet each other, we go, “We're still here then.”
(Laughter)
JR: Still Here! So yeah, so that's great. And what is great about the cricket and the rugby clubs, is that, I'm just trying to see, is that Melanie? That's Melanie. And what was I gonna say, I've forgotten now. Oh, yeah. What is great about cricket and rugby clubs, all my family have come through like the boys like Hugh's coming through. So Oran coming through Calan looks like he's coming through. Also Hugh not so much with football, but Oran with the rugby. And obviously my daughters with netball, and stuff like that, which is great and the granddaughters, kind of but they're really sporty, which is great. It's great that you've got that continuation. And like, parents, Jamie was coming through. He's giving it a rest, whether he had come back, but you've always got that connection. You know, that connection with the boys. So that's always great to come through. I can't think.
GC: What about, when, at Morgan's the parents dug out the swimming pool, did they?
JR: Yeah, well, that, that happened. I'd left by then. I can remember when we first started school, because it was a brand new school and the playing field, and the stones. I mean, it was just the stones and the fencing, it was unbelievable when we first got there. And I can remember, they, we used to go out and they, it might be a sports lesson or something, but they used to get the boys versus the girls who could get the biggest heap of stones.
(Laughter)
JR: And that was a good way of doing it because in the early days, it was really, really rough. But I mean, then became we played football there, honestly against other schools. I still, I still got a picture, I've still got a picture at home of Morgans Walk football club, football side, the first football side ever, you know, with all my mates I've still got that at home. Not many other pieces of Morgans Walk and I've still got a couple of school reports, Morgans Walk. They're the best school reports I've ever had, so I kept those.
(Laughter)
JR: Yeh, I've still got that from Morgans Walk. But, but it was great to go into a brand new school, and ahm…
GC: Who was the head teacher?
JR: Mr. Elliot Mr. Elliot and his wife used to teach there as well. Mr. Elliot was the first one. And my first teacher was Mr. Wright there. He, he taught us Morse code. Because he was in the, what was it, did the engineer in the flights. But then he'd teach us all Morse code. And he'd give you a thing of Morse code and give you this message, and if you could work out you could leave school early.
(Geoff laughs)
JR: And he'd say, right you can go now but he used to, it was quite interesting to do that. That's what he did during the war. And then my next teacher was Mrs. Last and then Miss Swanton and Mr. Simpson over there and Mr. Williamson was also taught there who he then, my children went to St. Joseph's School, and Bill Williamson was his name, Mr. Williamson He was kind of semi retired. He taught, he was headmaster at Bayford and then came to St. Joseph's when my children were there. And because obviously then I made that contact with him because my children were there. And we then got into sailing through him. He was a great sailor. So then St. Joseph's started sailing. We used to go to the lakes at Stevenage, Fairlands Lakes. We used to go there and also the ones at Cheshunt, we used to go sailing there.
And then once a year, we used to do a week at Barton Turf, because Hertfordshire County Council had got that there, it's still held under trust, Newsom. Mr. Newsom was education head in Hertfordshire. He'd actually got that, it's still there. That used to be a fantastic week. We'd take all the children there. And it was, for 20 years we did that. I mean, my wife used to come. She got into sailing as well. I got into sailing through Bill Wiliiamson. And we used to go to Cheshunt and get an our leadership, sailing, ahm,
GC: Qualification?
JR: Yeh qualification just for the leadership. We did that. And then once a year, we used to go to Barton which was fantastic. Because you, before to attend, you had tents, but the main building was a concrete building. So there was showers there. cooking facilities, and my wife used to go down in the early days to do the cooking. And we all used to stay there.
And, (laughs) I was quoting this story the other week. I can always remember, we used to go sailing in the week. On the Friday night before we came back on the Saturday the coach would bring us back, each tent, there might be, how many would there be, there'd be at least eight tents, I should think. And then we as teachers used to sleep in the tents as well, we had it and you'd have a night where everyone had to put on a show. So each tent had to do it. But so did the sailing instructors.
So we did it and we had, because it was St Joseph's one year we had the nun, Sister Phillips came but she was in jeans and stuff like that and she came down. And we did Sleeping Beauty. I was quoting this the other week. I was at Maggie's. And we did Sleeping Beauty. Of course, the princess was me. And the prince who had to wake with the kiss was the nun. They picked the nun. So I'm laying there fast asleep and she's coming. She was so embarrassed, I can always remember this. And I'm lying there. And Ronnie was reading out, “And now to wake the prince, the prince, no, the princess up, the prince,” so she she kissed me. And I wouldn't wake up. I thought, I've only, I've never been kissed by a nun. I'm gonna live off this. Anyway I said, “No, I'm not awake, you've got to kiss me again.” She went all red and she kissed me again. And I went ah, and I woke up.
Anyway, about six months later, we came and she became she didn't want to be a nun any more and she came out of it. So we're at dinner party one night and I said, do you know what I said about Sister Phillips she's packed up. She's not a nun me she's come out. I said, “One kiss from me, and she realized what she was missing. She didn't want to be a nun any more.”
And Ronnie, there was my wife and she said, “Excuse me,” she said, this was a dinner party about ten people. She said, “Yes, and one kiss from you, and I wanted to become a nun.”
(Geoff laughs)
JR: I wish so it was yeah. Yeah. So we had good times. Really, really good. And Bill Williamson was superb. Poor old Bill suffered a lot from, he had rheumatism in his joints. And at the end, he wouldn't stay in the tent, he stayed in a bed and breakfast just around the corner. But yeah, so that St. Joseph's, they had a good time. I used to coach the football there as well. Because I did a bit of coaching. And so I used to coach the football when Graeme was there, you know, and some of the others so yeah, good, good school, St Joseph's. So they went there from there, and I all my travelling I had to do I didn't want, it was a Catholic School. And when they came to secondary, the girls went to Presdales and Graeme went to Richard Hale because no no way did I want them to travel the same as I'd had to travel. So that's how they did it.
I can't think of anything else. You think of things as it comes to you. You alright with that?
GC: That's good. Thank you, Eric. Phil! Eric! (Laughing) Jim, thanks.
JR: I keep telling you he's my dad.
(Laughter)
JR: Okay, that's great.
GC: Thank you.
JR: I'm trying different things that come back to you. Because my kids have asked me to write it all down. So I'm gradually, there's things, different things that comes to you and you say, Oh, yeah, I must tell them that. Sport is such a great…, isn't it, such a great social thing?
GC: Yep.
JR: You know, you take the people we've met here, you've never I mean, you're still involved on a on your umpiring and stuff like that. But people you would never, because you taught at Morgans didn't you?
GC: Yeah.
JR: I think that I was the happiest I've ever I'd been, there. And that was great. And I mean, when Faudel Phillips used to come, you had the meals were terrible. In fact, the early days, I hate to admit this, my Mum used to used to catch the 341 bus. And she used to drop me off where Longmores is now that used to be the bus stop, because you just come along Castle Street because she'd dropped me off in the morning. And then she get the bus back. And then she picked me up at dinner time again, because I think we had an hour and a half school.
GC: Yes, we had that as well.
JR: And she'd then picked me up again, bring me back to having dinner then get the bus and then, and then do that, because the food was awful. They used to come in as pre done at places and then used to take it from there. Morgans Walk was great, because the kitchens were there.
Who was the chef there? Was it Rose Marker there?
GC: Yes.
JR: But she died didn't she?
GC: Yes. Was she the chef when you were there?
JR: No, no. I knew Rose because she, I used to have dealings with her when I was in insurance.
And I knew Ted her husband. And I still see the children but yeah, Rose.
Yeah, I was trying to think of the chef but the food was lovely. And we used to do the school plays. We started that. I think the first one was we did.
I was, I forget who I was. I think, it was the old Nativity but I was like a gripper or something.
I can't think. I played one of them. You know, we did two or three. But it was always the senior class did it. In those days you didn't have every class taking. It was just a seniors and we did country dancing. It was good!
GC: Thanks, Jim.