Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Selby, Miss Kathleen (O2001.22) |
| Interviewee | Miss (Kathleen) Selby (KS) |
| Interviewer | Jean Riddell (JR) |
| Date | 22/11/2001 |
| Transcriber by | Mark Green, using Otter.Ai for initial transcript. |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording No: O2001.22
Interviewees: Miss (Kathleen) Selby (KS)
Date: 22nd Nov 2001
Venue: 202 Hertingfordbury Road, Hertford
Interviewers: Jean Riddell (JR)
Transcriber: Mark Green, using Otter.Ai for initial transcript.
Checked by Stephen McEnally
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
JR: JR here. Thursday the 22nd of November 2001. Just off to number 202, Hertingfordbury Road to interview Miss Selby, who is going to hopefully tell me her memories of that end of Hertingfordbury Road. And I'm just testing that this microphone is working. This should be all right now, we'll see.
I thought I'd start by asking you how your family came to be in this house.
KS: Well, these, these two houses originally were staff houses.
JR: the Cowper [pronounced Cooper] family, yes.
KS: To...um... Yes.
JR: Panshanger.
KS: The house over the road.
JR: Oh, Epcombs.
KS: Epcombs. They were staff houses. This was the head gardener’s house and next door was the chauffeur’s.
JR: Right.
KS: What will they my father came here oh, quite late on 1950s. Mr. Thorpe was a chauffeur. He he'd been here oh, sometime before that, we worked. Mrs Leslie lived in there.
JR: in Epcombs?
KS: Yeah, plus these two belonged to the Panshanger Estate.
JR: Yes.
KS: When they sold up, they decided to let the people who, who are living actually living in the houses that belong to the estate have a choice of buying them. And this is what happened this, this is how it came to be my father's house.
JR: Yes. Yeah, yes. What about Mr. Thorpe? Did he?
KS: Well, he was here. He, he died very shortly afterwards, actually. And his widow stayed on until she died. His widow actually was a ladies maid. Same, you know, same time, when, when he was chauffeur.
JR: Yes. Yes. That was to Mrs. Leslie, was it?
KS: Mrs Leslie, yes.
JR: Was Epcombs owned by Mrs. Leslie or was that at that time part of the Panshanger Estate?
KS: I think, I think it was owned by her.
JR: Yes. Because these cottages have got this insignia on them, haven't they?
KS: Which belong to the Cowper family.
JR: Yes. So. Right. So I'm just thinking Panshanger must have perhaps at one time I think it did, in fact own Epcombs as well. and then these houses are next to it.
KS: It might well have done. She might have had it for her lifetime and then after that it would go, revert.
JR: Yes. Yeah. So your father was then? Gardener? Is that right? At Epcombs for Mrs. Leslie. So did he have any other duties? Or was he? Did he have to deliver things or…?
KS: No, no.
JR: Or take her out?
KS: No, no. No, Mr Thorpe did that.
JR: Yes, yes, and he was just the chauffeur.
KS: That's right, well he, he helped in the garden when he wasn't needed. But other than that,
JR: and they have a gate over here, did they, to…
KS: They had a…?
JR: …gate. Just across the road here from…
KS: Yes. Um...it's hard. It's really quite hard to remember what it's like, now. But in fact, the road went round at the bottom it didn't, it didn't go straight along obviously as it does now. It went over the road. It had a sort of twist round.
JR: Yes. Yes. So if you went out of your front gate on you were straight on the road. Cross the road. And the gate was just on the…
KS: No, no, no, no. This piece of road was still here. It was right at the end of the road where they crossed. What okay, there wasn't one just out here, then?
JR: No. Oh, right.
KS: This has always been, this was the main road?
JR: Yes. Yes. I know. Yes. I realise that. So on the other side of the road here where you can look down to see the dual carriageway, when the dual carriageway wasn't there it was just sloping fields was it, down to Epcombs.
KS: That's right, all part of Epcombs.
JR: How far along did Epcombs own the land as far as...
KS: I think as far as the first estate.
JR: Um...the ridings Beckett's.
KS: Beckett's, that's right.
JR: As far as that. So they were all Epcombs meadow. Did they have any cattle there?
KS: Yes, yes but I'm, I'm not sure that was theirs. I believe it belonged to the farmer in Hertingfordbury
JR: Yes. The one across the road from Epcombs. Well, doesn’t matter, you may think of it. What did you feel that you lived in Hertingfordbury? Or that you lived in Hertford?
KS: No. This was considered the last house in Hertingfordbury Road. And the next, the Dell was in Hertingfordbury
JR: Okay. So did you relate more to the village or to the town? Really?
KS: Half and half, really. I didn't I didn't actually come here until about 1968. When my step-mother died I came home to look after my father.
JR: Oh I see. So you didn't? Well, obviously in 1950.
KS: I came home obviously. In between times, but not to actually live.
JR: Yes, so do you feel now that it is your home area?
KS: Oh, yeah.
JR: got used to it?
KS: I've seen lots of changes, of course. But on the whole. With the house and the estate behind us, which was at one point open fields. The cattle used to be in there.
JR: Yeah. So when they were doing the road, can you remember that? The big road?
KS: Yes, vaguely. But it's amazing with time. It's very difficult to imagine it quite as it was. But it was literal, it was a continuation obviously of this road straight into Hertford. And the field came up to the bottom of this wooded area.
JR: Yeah, yes. I remember coming along the road. Before it was before they had the dual carriageway quite, quite clearly. But I can't quite remember how, when you've got your, passed here down the hill, and I'm thinking about Valeside being there at that time. But the bit of road in front of Valeside was your road wasn't it, as well?
KS: That's right. But a little to the right actually, because they're filled in now with trees and things, borders of trees. But I find that that particular area very hard to remember exactly as it was because as the years go by, you know, you know that it has filled in here. And you know that this piece of road went round into Hertingfordbury by the Dell, but…remember.
JR: No, no, probably less things to trigger off your memory just there, you have got the Dell and the windy bit and the stables there, haven't you, on this end.
KS: But looking going down towards Hertingfordbury from here, I can remember looking back towards the Dell and it was it was on a slope. The Dell, the garden was on a slope and they would have Aubretia when Sir Henry Richards was there they would have Aubretia in the garden of every shade you could imagine, the whole garden filled with Aubretia, beautiful colours,
JR: So did they have a rockery?
KS: A rockery yes, but a large rockery, you know steep and very high.
JR: A hanging garden, really. In suppose. Oh, that was very pretty then, was it?
KS: Beautiful.
JR: Hum...Well, tell me a bit about Sir Henry Richards. He was there and…
KS: I didn't know him very well, actually. Because, because I wasn't here. I think I can't remember. I've got a feeling he might have died before I came here to live. But I believe he was very generous towards the village. I don't I don't really I didn't really know him personally. My father spoke very highly of him.
JR: What did he do? Did he I mean, he was a retired man was he by?
KS: He was retired. I can't remember exactly what he did.
JR: Because I think I had a feeling he came in here in the 20s. But I might be… In the 1920s, he came here. I think Patience Bagenal said that he was…
KS: Well, she will know more, she was in the village, obviously. And...
JR: I think she said her father-in-law Hope, I think he used to know him. He was quite active around in the 1920's, I think, the 30's I think he, she said that. What you were saying to me when we're on the bus that day that they did a traffic count outside.
KS: Yes. This is during the time I believe that they were anticipating the new road going through. And I think they made a total of 25,000 vehicles in every 24 hours when you think they all went past here, we had a request bus stop opposite the gate. It's hard to it's hard to believe really, it was never any problem with trees, for instance, because the buses and the lorries and all the heavy vehicles kept it quite short either side, really?
JR: Yeah. So it was quite noisy here, was it at that time?
KS: Well I suppose it was, it must have been I wasn't here, as I say I was only here for holidays on the whole until about 1968. It made a lot of difference. Really. I mean, this is this is like a lane now, isn't it, compared to a main road?
JR: We can hear the traffic but it's pleasantly in the background. Rather than right on your doorstep. Yes. Were there any incidents at all along this stretch of road or any the accidents or anything you remember?
KS: I can't remember any, no.
JR: And so apart from Sir Henry Richards, who else did you know quite well, I would assume you knew Mrs. Thorpe. Were you quite friendly with her?
KS: Oh yes, yes. Well, no, not not really, because we were, we were quite isolated. And after I came to live here I worked in Hertford so I really didn't see very many people in the village. Um…trying to think of the name of the people that had a house…the Dell.
JR: the next one, it was large, it was a large house.
KS: The Dell, no the Dell itself.
JR: Oh, at the Dell.
MR: Yes.
JR: After...
KS: Antique…antique dealer in Hertford. Um... I'm trying to remember his name […]. But they had a fire, they had a fire in the house itself in the roof itself.
JR: Oh, did they?
KS: Yes. I should think probably that was early 70s. I can remember they had a wood burning stove in the house apparently it caught rafters in the roof and caught fire and did quite a lot of damage.
JR: Right. So you were, were you actually here when that happened?
KS: I was here? Yes.
JR: Did you see it? So it was it a serious fire.
KS: It burnt very quickly.
JR: Yes, yes. I think it is a date. I think I said this to you before. Certainly, there were records from 1688 of it,
KS: and it's already been …century. [??]
JR: That's right. So it is an ancient structure on the added to I think. And yes. So that was the antique. What about the other side and in the other house?
KS: I didn't know, no.
JR: I was called to the that, to that house...um...a few months ago just to have a look at it. He wanted an extension of some kind Yes, a little lodge that was so greatly enlarged and I was amazed how big it is. Because it's grown considerably. Yeah. Very nice. Actually. He's done well with that. Yes, he has.
KS: There’s only one house there.
JR: Yeah. Just behind the Dell. Yeah. Um, so of course you don't know anything about the bombs then do you?
KS: No, apparently there was a landmine in the field behind? Yes. It was a huge crater.
JR: Oh, thank you. That's cleared up a mystery. Yes. Right. And another one along in Thieves Lane. I think I've seen the crater.
KS: I didn't know about that.
JR: Okay, so this one behind you…
KS: in the field behind, what is, what is now Ladywood Road, above Ladywood Road.
JR: Before they built that estate, was there any other building up there?
KS: None at all? No, it was a field and the cattle would graze and come and look over the fence. You know, bull and cows and, marvellous.
JR: Yeah, right. So your land goes with this house. How far does it go? It obviously goes from here
KS: it goes as far up to, to, to the House that had been built, in the garden of the Dell. It finishes there. So it's the whole length of the road.
JR: Up to that when their wall starts then, and so that house. Oh, I see. That was the Dell
KS: That was their garden, that was the Dell garden?
JR: Yeah, oh. I can't quite. When I've been in Ladywood Road, I've tried to see that house from Ladywood Road. I can't really see it.
KS: because there's another house in front of it.
JR: I see, right. So that when they built Ladywood Road and the other roads there, they didn't take any of the other land from the Dell, did they?
KS: Well, I think they did actually, I think the last two houses at the top, I think that they put in a special application...to to giving people building there [tape is indistinct at this point]
JR: Don't worry about I shan't need all that detail. It's just what used to belong to what once upon a time.
KS: The area that they built these two houses at the top, which was a continuation of Ladywood Road was the area that was telling you about a little while ago where they would have the aubretia, that was the top of the garden. So I think they bought a piece of land from from the Dell. To build, I think it was two houses at the top. That's why you can't see there because the houses are in front.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. One of the people that I've interviewed, my neighbour actually was a boy living in the Campfield Estate. And he said he used to come up and take...
KS: not quite as far as this house. There was an orchard I had an orchard as well at the end of mine.
JR: Oh did you. So you've had them on either side of the two cottages. orchards. Really?
KS: Yeah, there were quite a few apple trees. In this garden, they were a lot of early River plum trees [probably a reference to Rivers’ Early Prolific plum tree, developed by Thomas Rivers of Sawbridgeworth]. I think there were about 15. And we had we had hens at that point and bantams and gradually the trees the plum trees died. And apparently it was due to the hen manure I found out afterwards. They killed the whole lot of them.
JR: Oh, so that was a bit of a blow was it?
KS: Well it was really, because they were lovely plum trees. And I mean, irreplaceable, really, now, you know beautiful purple plums.
JR: So they hadn't kept chickens here in the past then otherwise the plum trees would have gone...
KS: before us. No, I don't think so.
JR: Because a lot of people kept chickens didn't they, in days gone by. Unless they had them in a particular area perhaps they kept them in one area. Okay. So you have you have a big garden still haven't you
KS: It is big but I'm afraid I can't do as much as I used to do I used to keep it quite well but it's not very easy now.
JR: Have you noticed the growth of the trees over the last year? Not your garden trees. I mean, generally. You’re fairly secluded here, aren't you?
KS: on the other side of the road, when they had elm disease, Dutch elm disease, they took 39 trees down on the other side of the road, the length of the road. But a lot of the seedlings are up now you know, that have come from the from the actual trees.
JR: So you never actually had a view over...
KS: no, no, there were always trees.
JR: Did you get up? Did you have any social connections with Mrs. Leslie? I mean...
KS: No. Well, I wasn't really. I wasn't really here at the time, so
JR: I just wonder whether you ever visited with your father or anything? Go down there, no, no. What about Mrs. Thompson McCausland? Did you know her, at all?
KS: Well? Yes, I did know her. But not not well. But I knew I knew her.
JR: and her husband?
KS: And her husband.
JR: And I didn't know him, I knew her. Yes, yes. Yes. We sometimes used to have Civic Society Garden Parties, just in the last few years more recently, and it was a very nice house and garden.
KS: Oh, they had a big garden. They also own the own the piece on the other side, which is just below the roundabout now.
JR: Yes. The stables? Yes. Only there was some, the person apparently now who is the owner of Epcombs was trying to find out whether there were any plans for the [indistinct] really, but as somebody who was a garden, historic garden expert he was trying to help them, but
KS: I'm sure there must be plans somewhere.
JR: When your father was there,
KS: I would have thought the plans would have been on the house, I would have thought the details would have been on the house plans.
JR: Yes. Apparently, they're not it's not, no.
KS: just actually covering the ground.
JR: Yes, I think they wanted to see if it was ever an ornamental garden laid out by perhaps a design, a garden designer.
KS:
I don't think it was actually, I don't think it was.
JR: I mean, your father for instance. What sort of gardening did he have to do? Was it mostly mowing the lawn?
KS: That's right. Obviously, there were flower beds but um…
JR: Because when you go in it's mostly grass, isn’t it?
KS: That's right, yes. I mean, there's there's more there is water at the other side as well. The river runs through.
JR: That's right, yes, lots of ducks, which come along and make messes everywhere [laughter]. Yes. So, whereabouts did, did you do work at the DHSS?
KS: I did, yes.
JR: So how did you get into town? Did you walk.
KS: I walked.
JR: Yes.
KS: And back. Yeah.
JR: Yeah, yeah. So, did you get to know people on the way into town?
KS: I think not, not that many really because, well I, you do you obviously not as friends, as acquaintances, yes.
JR: To nod to, and say hello, yes.
KS: But no, not on the whole. I suppose, my life was taken up with work and and I'm quite a solitary person on the whole. I mean, I like people. But I don't… I don't mix a lot.
JR: No, no, so did your work, fellow work? Workers? Let's say there were none from around here or..
KS: No. Not from this area, no. Further, either from Hertford itself or further afield, on the outskirts.
JR: Do you ever go to? Did you ever go to St. Mary's Church, is that your…
KS: Well I did, yes. Earlier on, especially when my stepmother was alive because she was on the parish and church council. But no, I'm afraid I haven't been. I haven't been in recent years. Keep telling myself I should. But I don't seem to get down there. Because when I was working, I had to do all everything at weekends and I shouldn't say this.
JR: Quite often, it's a comfort, isn't it going to a social circle? Quite often, it's a comfort when you are perhaps a bit solitary. I'm sure to go and meet people every day, just once a week for a short time. It's a lovely church, isn't it? It's a nice setting. Yeah, I like it very much. Yes, I can understand anyone wanting to be part of that. It's nice.
KS: Yeah, sometimes you feel perhaps it's, you let that too much time lapse in between going and, you know, it's very difficult to sort of start all over again. But the other problem of course, is crossing the main road now. You take your life in your hands when you cross the road, you know, its a...
JR: There's no easy way is there?
KS: No, I mean, there's a there's a there's a pedestrian crossing, but it's it couldn't be in a worse place, really, because right on the corner, right on the roundabout, cars come around at quite a pace.
JR: So you moved back here to look after your mother. Father when your stepmother died? Is that right?
KS: When my stepmother died, yes.
JR: How long? Were you with your father then?
KS: Not a long term, unfortunately. I came back in 1968. He died in 1970, in 1970.
JR: So, when you came back was he actually ill or what?
KS: Yes, he didn't realise he was as ill as he was. He had to go into… I came back in the August, and he had to go into hospital in November and he had a major operation He lasted for just a year after that, and then...after he died I just stayed on, you know?
JR: Yes, you were still working then were you?
KS: Yes, I was working.
JR: So you had that to...
KS: Of course it was the first time, the first time in my life I'd ever been out of work when I came, from the time I left school until I came to look after my father, and then I was only, it was only for about two weeks. And then I, I got a job in the DHSS in Hertford, as a casual to start with. And then it just progressed from there, really, you know, just...was made permanent, a Clerical Officer, so it was it was, I quite enjoyed it really, I wouldn't enjoy it now though it's too, one had a lot of contact with the public in those days, which you don't have now.
JR: Yeah. Just trying to think when I last went there, for some reason. It was all very impersonal, I thought. I went there for some reason. Something to do with pension, a state pension, I think [indistinct].
KS: That's right. How long ago?
JR: Oh, I dunno, about two years ago, I think. I had to produce something.
KS: it's just been going, it's going down. I mean, it's what been about 18 years since I was there, so that's really going back a bit. But I enjoyed it, because I enjoyed working with the public, really. But I wouldn't enjoy it now. Because you have little contact with the public. I mean, it's an if you have contact with the public, on the telephone. You're… you're not actually doing the work that you should be doing. And therefore it's a vicious circle, you know, just don't get anything done at all.
JR: Right. Yes, I think when I went, there was a big room with seats in it. And I think this…
KS: Did you go up steps or not?
JR: I think I did.
KS: Or was it right at the end?
JR: I think I went up steps into this place, but he seemed to have this glass partition which you put down or closed down between people and you had to go and ring a bell if you want, and I thought well, he will see I'm sitting here. Why has he put the thing down?
KS: We didn't have that, we didn't have that, open counter in those days. It is much more. Much better for people visiting and and for the staff themselves really, because...there was an actual room that if you wanted a personal call, and we didn't want anybody else to hear what you're saying, well, then there was a smaller room to go into. But other than that it was all over the counter.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. So what did you do before you did that? Were you in that line of business anyway?
KS: No, no, years ago, I was a nanny for [indistinct – Schultz?]. Well, I was in the forces during the war. In the ATS, and when I came out, I was a nanny, and then latterly before I came home, I worked in a, I decided that the time has come for me to change. So I worked in a… do you know Cambridge?
JR: Not really, I mean, I've been to Cambridge a couple of times. But…
KS: Well, I worked for the store Joshua Taylor’s which is rather a higher class store, becomes a sort of Harrod’s style [indistinct] for about two years. And then of course I had to come home to look after my father's and that…
JR: was when you had to make the break. Otherwise, you would have stayed there presumably, would you, because it would be okay. So, when did you start out? I mean, were you… So you were actually born in Ware?
KS: I was born in Ware. The Lodge that my father was again, he was a gardener. He was a head gardener in a place called the Round House. I was born in Round House Lodge, which is just recently been on the market for about £485,000.
JR: Posh beginnings, then?
KS: Well, it wasn't in those days, I think they've added they've added a room and the garage and a little bit more land. My father was a gardener with at the Round House also he was gardener at one point at Fanham's Hall, you've heard of Fanham's Hall?
JR: Oh, yes. Oh, well, he was really experienced then.
KS: Yeah, very experienced.
JR: Yes. So why did he decide to come over here then?
KS: Why, because they were going to, they were going to sell the Round House, no I can't remember what exactly why it was some reason I think the Children's Society had the Round House. They rented the Round House during the war years. Um...quite sure why, why it happened, in fact. But he he came, he who worked here only for a while really until Mrs. Leslie died. And then he worked at...er...Welwyn Garden Grammar School as a groundsman
JR: Oh, did he? Oh, I thought he had stayed here until he retired, at Epcombs. Did he ever work for Mrs. Thompson McCausland?
KS: No.
JR: Oh, right, that's what I got.
KS: Before her time. After Mrs. Thursday died, they separated the estate and this is what this is when he bought the house and made a change
JR: like he went to work in Welwyn. Oh, yes. The Grammar School. Yes, that was in...
KS: the boys’ grammer school.
JR: In Welwyn Garden.
KS: That's right.
JR: Yeah, it wasn't yes. Just trying to think what Lane it was in.
KS: Yeah, I can't remember, now.
JR: Longcroft Lane was it something like that? Somewhere around there anyway.
KS: He um..used to cycle to work from here to Welwyn Garden City. He gave up because er, so dangerous on the road really with the traffic.
JR: Yes.
KS: He did. He did that until he was 70, 76.
JR: Oh gosh. So he was cycling in the 1950s and the early 60s, was he I suppose he was...
KS: Cycling?
JR: Yeah.
KS: No, no, no because he didn't, no. Fifties he was over at Epcombs. He didn't start I'm trying to think when he started this he wasn't there for very long I don't know a few years but it was when the estate was dissolved so to speak,
JR: Right, yes. Oh, did you have quite a good bus service along this road, despite the fact that the bus had to actually, actually come along... Oh, right. And she she did well I honestly can't remember because it's such a long time ago but I can, all I can remember is that at one point that might, well my step-mother was alive then and they took the request stop away from here. And she wrote her local MP and said you know, they haven't got to stop if there's nobody to pick, to pick up and they had it put back again.
KS: so, until that until they actually put the road through there was a request stop on the other side of the road.
JR: He could have got a bus then could he to Welwyn Garden. I imagine it would have gone to Welwyn Garden.
KS: Oh they all, everything that went past did. But I can understand their reasoning really now but you see obviously every time the bus stopped it would hold the traffic up.
JR: Yeah. But I mean there wouldn't have been many people getting on here.
KS: it's just what I'm saying. It would either be one or the other. Two houses you know, and they would be elderly people so no reason why they shouldn't you know, have an actual request stop there. They had to stop.
JR: So probably wouldn't it be more than four...
KS: They took it away. I think they took it away afterward. Obviously they took it away. Took it away before they put the road through. They must have done.
JR: so where was the next nearest stop then in the village was it...?
KS: Oh in, in Hertingfordbury.
JR: Right now, yes, ok, right.
KS: There, there's been nothing you see it is still the same one then the next one is at Campfield Road.
JR: that you said to me on the bus there's one coming down Thieves Lane. There is a bus stop there but what buses stop there?
KS: Only the only the...er....H3 I think it is, local bus. The Greenline doesn't stop there. So you've got no stop. You've got a stop on the Welwyn Road. And the next one is in Hertingfordbury.
JR: That's where you got off that day, wasn't it?
KS: That’s right. Walked across.
JR: Yes, I suppose by the time you came here the station was at Hertingfordbury....in its heyday that was quite a useful stop for the people in the village.
KS: I'm sure it was. Reading back on Harry Edwards book. Incidentally, he's come up with another one, did you know 'Sticks and Stones’ [Sticks and Stones: The Life and Times of Journeyman Printer – Hertford, Dunstable, Cheltenham, and Wolverton].
JR: Oh, no, I didn't
KS: that that was local history and I think that was really lovely to read. But of course, I don't remember that. I mean I remember, afterwards, but not before?
JR: But he's talking about the '30s in that book, isn't he? The 1930s.
KS: Yeah, yeah. When he was a boy. But his father his father was a was a perfect gentleman. I mean, he's always so helpful to everybody. So many times I've said oh, I wish Harry Edwards was still around, you know. This is the part of the past I think that it's really worth recording because anything that happens today is not as exciting as it was years ago. To me.
JR: maybe in the future to somebody saying now might be exciting to somebody in the future. Yeah. Who were the characters in the village you remember then? Besides Harry, not that he was a character but
KS: I don't I don't remember a lot really. I know that my father would go down to have his drink at the weekend and would meet Harry Edwards.
JR: Where was that, The White Horse or...
KS: No, the, the…
JR: Prince of Wales?
KS: No, what is now the hotel, the hotel in...Hertingfordbury? Yes. Is it The White Horse? The White Horse, well it was a pub basically, then, that was the meeting place a lot of people really I think that that was part of village life you know just at, just at weekends.
JR: But did you know Mrs. Cannon at all?
KS: No.
JR: She lives opp, but she lived opposite The White Horse, the cottage there she seemed to
KS: Well, she doesn't now.
JR: She, she died a few years ago now.
KS: I'm going to say the majority of those houses are really not the people that live in them are not, not people that have lived there all their lives. They change hands so much, now.
JR: In fact, I had a pupil who was living there. In the early days of my teaching career. He um, his family still live there, the Wrights. They're very nice family. They lived next door to Mrs. Cannon. First time I'd heard of Mrs. Cannon was from this family. And two very ancient cottages together. They're very old ones.
KS: That's not in the row, is it? The row on the left-hand side.
JR: No, not the first.
KS: That's where Harry Edwards lived, that row on the left-hand side.
JR: The Mill.
KS: That's right.
JR: Yes. I think that row of cottages was once a pub.
KS: Really?
JR: Yes. And I think they transferred the licence over to The White Horse, which was the original home farm for Panshanger. Yes. Have you read Carrington's diary? [John Carrington’s diary 1798-1810. Carrington was a farmer, overseer, tax collector and local constable in Bramfield, Herts].
KS: No, I haven't.
JR: Well, it's in there. It's, it's mentioned… it's quite a nice book to read actually, Bramfield farmer who wrote a diary in the late 18th, early 19th centuries, and he, he comes in Hertingfordbury a lot and speaks about all the things all in rather peculiar spelling, but once you get used to it, yes, very interesting. Yes. This is how I found out that the Dell was once a pub.
KS: The Dell was once a pub? Oh was it?
JR: Yes, it was called the [Miss Selby coughs obscuring the recording, but it sounds like King’s] Head to start with, then it became The Crown. Because that's in the deeds when I looked at the deeds, it was in the deeds as well, but it was Carrington that first drew my attention to it.
KS: Oh really? No, I didn't know that.
JR: Yes, yes, I think he used to come down the Welwyn Road and come down the little Old Thieves Lane into Hertingfordbury. 'Cos he was aways visiting people around for tax, he was a tax collector.
KS: I think I don't know whether I'm right, but I think really it should be a right of way in front of the house. I'm pretty sure that the road didn't go all the way around like it did now, you didn't have to walk all the way around. So really, I think should be a right of way in front of the house inside, not on, not on the road.
JR: No, no. Well, the road went, little Old Thieves Lane went up between the Dell [and The Laurels? indistinct] didn't it?
KS: Yes, but that's a new but that's, a, I've noticed coming down the other day it's a new sign there isn't it? That used not to be there.
JR: No. I think it is to distinguish the two roads, really? Because Thieves Lane not only goes up from the roundabout, but it continues right through the estate there's a lane it becomes Thieves Lane again as a road.
KS: Yes. Of course that wasn't a main that wasn't a main road at all, was it? I mean it was only actually when they put the, the dual carriageway through, they made that a proper road. I mean it wasn't important almost like a not exactly a lane but it was...
JR: a muddy track.
KS: ...yes, it wasn't a road as such.
JR: How did you get on here when they were building this estate behind then? Ladywood estate? Did you find it very annoying and was it very noisy and intrusive?
KS: I did mind about it. I really did mind because they, they… originally Rialto was the name of the builders. They said that they were going to put four, they told me they were going to put four, four bedroom houses length way on, so that it didn't overlook the garden in fact, they put about 12 or 13 houses along there. Peter [Ruffles] was a great help from that point of view. I mean, he made sure that I had a [? Fence along. Indistinct], a great help.
JR: The builder put that up, did he? Did the builder put the fence up?
KS: They had to, yes, yes. This stipulation, this came under the planning authority but you know, they could do it but they had to put a fence up for the whole of the boundary. No, I feel it could have been higher but never mind.
JR: Can you see them in the winter?
KS: I could if the trees weren't there, but unfortunately, I think I made a bad choice of trees I should have had evergreens rather than conifers because the conifers don't do very well up there. You know, they're all getting, getting quite bare at the bottom. So, it should have been something like an evergreen or a holly or…
JR: it's difficult to think of how it's going to look later isn't it though sometimes, when you're choosing plants.
KS: Oh, that's right. Yes, you, can’t, I mean, I must say I did dread it because we’d been so, isolated isn't the word but so private really, we could pick mushrooms in the field, lovely mushrooms I think you lose out somehow once you start… mind you, this is what they call progress I suppose these days it's just build as many houses as you can, regardless.
JR: Have you got, you've got a little path, haven't you, a public path behind you, have you?
KS: No, they come right up.
JR: Oh, no, it comes down here, doesn't it? I'm sorry. I was thinking it went right along. It doesn't it comes down.
KS: It goes the other way. Footpath into Hertford.
JR: Yes. Yes, that's right. Yes. I forgotten how far along you were actually, so you're right on to the boundary of the houses, there, yeah.
KS: And we originally they were just strands of barbed wire. Vigus was the family. The farmer in Hertingfordbury. And he rented this field at the back for his cattle. We had strands of barbed wire along the boundary the cattle including the bull, would come and stand and look over the fence look over the wire. Yeah, I mean, really quite tame you know, which was lovely, because this is this is what I this is what I think living in the country is. Not masses, surrounded by masses of houses. I mean, I know I was privileged earlier on but, er... it's not easy, especially as you get older to accept being sort of hemmed in by houses, you know. But of course, it happens to everybody.
JR: They seem to need more houses for single people don't they nowadays, and so many,
KS: But that's not happening on the whole. I mean, they seem to be going for four- and five-bedroomed houses now. And they call them four- and five-bedroomed houses, regardless of the size of the house. You can have, I mean, if you want a four- or five-bedroom house on the whole, you want a large house because you've got to, you've got a large family generally. But that doesn't always. You know, in some areas, the rooms are not as large as this.
JR: No, that's true. They're very much on a smaller scale, aren’t they. But a lot of the houses in that estate are very small houses, two bedrooms, some are maisonettes.
KS: Three bedrooms, mainly, four bedrooms, a few. I think it was four bedrooms behind me here. And he's planned for an extension side and back. Which I'm not looking forward with, but I don't think much you can do to oppose it these days, you know.
JR: But depends, if it is overdevelopment of site, if it's, if they think there's too many too much building in a small plot the Council will say this. Depends on how it's viewed really, as a site and then a bit you know, the plans.
KS: It's going to if, if allowed is means it's going to be built. The house now is going to be built on the side. And at the back. The first they said that it will be a single storey at the back. But there we afterwards apparently it's a double storey at the back, which means it's going to bring it even closer to me. But there we are.
JR: Right. Now is there anything else I haven't asked you yet, that I should have done? Have I covered it all, do you think?
KS: I think you have covered it all, really.
JR: Yes. What was it like in wintertime? Would you ever get snowed up here or looking at leaden sky, over there.
KS: We have? Yes. It looks as though it could, doesn't it, almost.
JR: It won't, it is too warm. But did you ever have problems with [indistinct – the road?]
KS: Oh yes. I can funnily enough I can remember the day that Mrs. Salt next door. And we'd had snow overnight. And it had frozen. So, you had solid ice on this road. And Doctor Bench came in, I rang up Dr. Bench and he came in and did whatever he had to do and obviously I am going to be late for work. So he said I'll run you in, but I mean going, going down there in the car on the sheet ice it was, it would have been even worse to have had to walk it. But no, this what happens very often is you know, if it freezes, then it starts to thaw and that's when it becomes dangerous. Especially the sloping parts.
JR: Did Mr. Thorpe ever bring the car home, or did he leave it at night?
KS: No, no, no. He couldn't have parked it here anyway. No, you could never park, you obviously couldn’t park on this road for any length of time. If we had visitors before it came through they would park in the lay-by.
JR: Yes. Yes.
KS: But now, it's just like a country lane, really, isn’t it, everybody brings their dogs along.
JR: Yes, it's a dog walking area, definitely. Well, thank you. I'll just turn it off for a minute.
END OF RECORDING