Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Defty, Ivor (O2023.2) |
| Interviewee | Ivor Defty (ID) |
| Interviewer | Frances Green (FGG), Rod Lewis (RL) |
| Date | 24/06/2023 |
| Transcriber by | Mark Green (using Otter.Ai for initial transcript) |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording No: O2023.2
Interviewee: Ivor Defty (ID)
Date: 24th June 2023
Venue: Ivor’s house, Weston, Herts
Interviewers: Frances Green (FGG), Rod Lewis (RL)
Transcriber: Mark Green (using Otter.Ai for initial transcript)
Typed by: Mark Green
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
FGG: Right, so this is a recording for the Hertford Oral History Group. I'm Frances Green, and I'm accompanied today by Rod Lewis, who's learning the art of interviewing, and we're here to interview Mr. Ivor Defty. Now Ivor was drawn to our attention because, well, he knows Peter Ruffles, but also Ivor's done an enormous amount of work, providing a super history about his father and the laundry, and what today is about is hearing from Ivor about his own childhood and his experiences.
So it is Thursday, the 24th of June 2023. And we are at Ivor's house, and it's very lovely and the birds are singing. It is a sunny day. We've got coffee and biscuits, and we're going to have a lovely chat about Ivor's childhood.
ID: Yes, I'm looking forward to it.
FGG: Yeah, absolutely brilliant. So, can I start Ivor just by asking you to set the scene for us tell us when and where you were born.
ID: In a nursing home in Broxborne, it's behind Van Hage's garden centre, was that there was the time? I don't remember that, of course. Yes. So and that was on the 29th and the first 47. I have two brothers, a younger brother, Adrian, and an older brother Michael. I think you can ask me about,
FGG: Yeah, no, that's good. It's just to get the sense of the siblings. Yeah. And what was the difference in age between the two of you?
ID: I think it was about three to four hours. Three or four days [laughs]. Years!
FGG: Years. Yeah. Okay.
ID: You can tell I'm nervous, can't you.
FGG: No, it is no problem at all. It's just sort of setting the scene really. So Adrian was about three to four years older than you and Michael...
ID: Adrian was the youngest.
FGG: Oh, he was, yeah, of course he was the youngest.
ID: I'm the middle one.
FGG: Yeah. Right. Got you. All right. Okay. So, take us back to early memories of your mother. What was her name?
ID: Beryl, Beryl Defty. She was born in Swaffham, I had to look that up, that's in 1917,
FGG: and where is Swaffham?
ID: It's east, Norfolk
FGG: Norfolk, yeah. So, she is a Norfolk lass.
ID: Yes, yes.
FGG: Okay. And so how did she meet your father then? And what was the process by which she came from Norfolk to Hertford?
ID: Not sure I knew, sorry [Frances laughs] um... no, they, they met in in Norfolk, I believe, and then eventually came down and lived in London. And then when dad started his laundry business, they moved to the suburbs to Hertford.
FGG: So, your father when you say they met in Norfolk? Was he a Norfolk boy?
ID: I think he was at the time. Yes.
FGG: Okay. So maybe working or school as far as you know?
ID: School.
FGG: School, okay, then. Okay. So they met and went to London and then came back to Hertford. Yeah. Okay. So take us on a bit from that time in the nursing home to the hospital where you were born to your early childhood then, Ivor, so start as early as you can.
ID: We lived in Bengeo at Grafton Towers that is the top of Port Hill. And the school that I went to was a primary school in Bengeo. And that was opposite the White Lion, then I didn't realise that that would become my local many years later.
FGG: There you go...[laughs]
ID: But the primary school is no longer there. It is a block of flats there.
FGG: Okay,
ID: I don't know if that happened because I left but...
FGG: so what do you remember about the primary school?
ID: Only that it was very easy to walk to because it was just up the road. No, other than and then very enjoyable childhood in the school.
FGG: Was it a tiny school, or...?
ID: Yes, yes. Yeah, I think there's only about three classrooms at the time, fairly small. And then from there, I went to junior school, which is at Port Vale so coming out the gate, instead of turning left to the school I turned right and walked down the hill to Port Vale or we went down Byde street at the back.
FGG: Okay. All right. I was saying to Rod, I didn't really know Bengeo very well but I think I do know that route a little bit. Yeah. So both schools very close to home?
ID: Yes, definitely.
FGG: So, did you have friends who lived around the area? Um...
ID: Um...not I wouldn't say at the primary school but the Port Vale school, after school we did play in around there at the time in the fields.
FGG: Yeah. So had Michael and Adrian, had they gone to the same schools that you went to?
ID: Do you know what? I don't know. [they talk over each other] I mean, I wish I'd taken notes at the time, but...
FGG: we always do. Yeah. [Laughs] So you're growing up and going to these two schools. And at the time, I mean, let's go back as far as your memory will take you back. But what was your father doing at the time?
ID: I think most probably, being a businessman. Never saw much of him. He was always out early and back late. Mum was always at home with us, of course. Nanny and granddad didn't live with us at the time, but later on nanny did move in with us.
FGG: Right. Okay. So your mother's name was?
ID: Beryl.
FGG: [At the same time] Beryl wasn't it, you said, Yeah. And you've got your father, George. So your earliest memories of your father as a businessman working long hours, were you're aware of what he was doing?
ID: No, not at that age. I didn't know he went off and he came back. Yeah.
FGG: And where was he going off to?
ID: To the laundry business.
FGG: Yes. So, he would really just be absent during the day, and what about weekends?
ID: weekends weren't too bad. Dad was a Mason. So, with the Freemasons, he on a Saturday would always go to a meeting. And then of course, during the week, he'd have meetings as well. And then we had ladies’ evenings and dinners and dances. So, it's a very social life for mum and dad. I never actually got involved in the Masons at all. It was something that I couldn't find any interest in.
FGG: Yeah, no, understood, understood. So as a child, you're.. you're not seeing you're certainly as a young child, you're not seeing much of your father. But obviously, your mother is there at home.
ID: I remember, of course, playing the …with Michael, a lot, in the garden. We had a big garden. So I think that's where our time came from is playing together.
FGG: And would you say you were close as brothers?
ID: Yes. Definitely. Yes, yeah.
FGG: So, the house that you grew up in? Describe that a little bit. So, we get a flavour for that, then.
ID: Well, it was a large house. It used to be Bengeo Nursing Home. And I think they paid about five and a half thousand pounds for it at the time, which perhaps didn't sound much then, but it's a lot now. Big house, big rambling house, cellars, greenhouses, lawns. Yes, it was. It was a nice, nice, house to live in.
FGG: It sounds a real delight for...
ID: yes
FGG: ...children.
ID: And yeah, yeah
FGG: lots of places to explore.
ID: Yes, exactly.
FGG: So, would you have friends round? And...
ID: initially, no, it wasn't 'til I perhaps I moved down to Port Vale School that I made more friends. And they would come up and play in the garden with us or we'd go down, play in their garden so much. And we find you playing in the boat. If you did,
FGG: you did at the time. Exactly. Yes. That's right. So it does sound wonderful. And so your mother would be looking after three of you, your father working very hard. Did you have any other help around the house that you remember?
ID: No, no, it was a big house from mum to run, it was, and maintenance of course. And with dad working all hours, at the laundry. I think that took second place.
FGG: Yeah. It does sound lovely though. So, I now want to just explore a little bit about how you became aware of the laundry as a business what was your earliest memory of … realising what your father did?
ID: Although we we used to go down there weekends and play and help with that. It was mainly when I moved to Balls Park, secondary modern school, that I went down to the laundry to do my homework.
FGG: Okay,
ID: Which is quite exciting, because I'd be doing the homework in the canteen. And that time in the afternoon many of the ladies who worked for the laundry would be coming and going. And they all offered to help to do my homework, which was absolutely fabulous.
FGG: You had that well sorted, I think [laughs]
ID: [unclear]...teacher at the time was worried about all the different handwriting in the books. But, but I don't think it helped me at all really, because all the conflicting answers that I was getting was yeah, didn't help. But it was good life. It was great.
FGG: Yes. So, and you mentioned that before you started to go there to do your homework, you would occasionally go down there to play, in the laundry. So just can you describe that a little bit? I mean, what what sort of games? And where would that happen?
ID: Well, Adrian and I used to be down there playing, you could walk from the back of the laundry along, I'm not sure the name of the river to Hartham, so we have put our wellies on, and we chugged off all the way down to Hartham and play in Hartham and then come back again, many hours later, unfortunately, we got told off, but there was not really it was a dangerous area really to play in as a child. So...
FGG: actually in the laundry itself?
ID: Yes, yeah, the machinery.
FGG: Yes, yes. No, no I…
ID: Yes. Going back when health and safety was non-existent, effectively?
FGG: Yeah. So would your mother take you down there? Or how did you get to the laundry?
ID: If in the early days, he would have been Dad taking us back down there after lunch.
FGG: Okay. So, he'd take you down after lunch and really set you free...
ID: Yep.
FGG: ...to wander at will and play? And then he would bring you back for tea? Dinner?
ID: yes, yep.
FGG: Yeah, okay. Lovely.
ID: Either that or mother would take us back. If she came down to help. Sometimes she occasionally helped in the office.
FGG: Yes.
ID: But she had more than enough work to do with running a home.
FGG: sounds like it. And if you remember that time when you were very young and playing and if you sort of close your eyes and think back, what can you describe of the laundry itself?
ID: An adventure playground that we couldn't go in. [laughter] It was very noisy, steamy, hot, shouting, because of the noise of the machines. But we did spend most of the time outside.
FGG: Yes. So, you were just aware of a lot of industry happening. And so at that stage, did you see anything of the machinery?
ID: Oh, over the years? Of course you did. But initially, No, we wouldn't know what. I still don't know what an iron is...but...
FGG: I'm not sure we should record that!
ID: Oh, sorry.
FGG: Anyway. [laughter] Never mind. So okay, so we now take you back to where you were, which was you were at Balls Park, Secondary Modern, that you were going to the laundry to do your homework. So how come you were going to the laundry to do your homework rather than doing it at home.
ID: I think of course, I was very interested in helping dad. And any tiny little jobs that he wanted doing at the time, I would help him do it. And quite often, he'd lead me down the road in the evenings to do these jobs, whether it was laying lino in the offices or tidying up the hampers, or picking up the bits of string, lots and lots of little jobs. And Dad would leave me down there in the evening and then come back later.
FGG: So, you by this stage, you developed an interest in the laundry. And so some of these jobs, I can understand laying of lino and things like that, but.. but when you talk about the hampers, tell us a little bit about the hampers.
ID: These, the laundry hampers were mainly from the Hertford Hospital. And because one would have sheets in, one would have pillowcases in, aprons, caps, cuffs and that sort of thing. Or if it was a big house, they would have their own hamper, because in Hertford and around Hertford, there's a lot of large houses and properties and homes. So, there was a lot of hampers. They did need repairing.
FGG: Right. Okay, and what was the process then Ivor if you were someone who lived in a big house and you wanted to use your father's laundry, did the laundry supply the hamper?
ID: Yes.
FGG: Okay, and then you'd have your hamper and you just put on anything that needed…
ID: The customer would fill the hamper with whatever items they wanted laundered, fill in the book. And the book would stay in the hamper.
FGG: Right.
ID: And then when the washing was all finished and ironed and pressed, then it would be collected by using the book and packed in the hamper. But of course it was packed in the hamper with layers of tissue and things like that just to protect it all.
FGG: Yes, amazing. So now if we do our washing, you know, we're separating out colours and whites, did all that happen?
ID: Yes, yes. That was yes, that was something that Dad or the washhouse men would do. They would sort it out.
FGG: Okay. So, it's quite a lot of work and was it hard to keep track if you've got all these hampers coming in and lots of different families’ laundries? How would you… how would you not muddle them up?
ID: I still don't know but because it was Dad's profession and it was great. He did take a liking to making sure that the sheets, no stains or pillowcases or handkerchiefs or, or gentleman's collars, he would make sure they weren't stained.
FGG: and gentleman's collars. I mean, there was a starching element ...
ID: That's right.
FGG: ...to things wasn't there. So, all of that had to be done.
ID: Yes, because those sort of things were washed, separate and starched. And there was what three or four different styles of collar, cut collars, drop collars, wing collars. So dad was specialised in that, although there was a young lady there that I remember spent all her time doing the collars.
FGG: Wow.
ID: She was also doing the collars and cuffs for the nurses at the hospital. And the little caps as well and starched tops. And some of the collars have wrinkling on them. Yes, I was on on the special Steam Machine.
FGG: Oh, wow.
ID: Very fascinating.
FGG: It is fascinating to...
ID: Just watch the video.
FGG: No, no, I remember it [Ivor laughs] in the video for posterity recording this because I mean, the notion of starching stuff is really, you know, we don't really do it do we anymore. I don't think Rod...does not starch his T-shirt. [Ivor says something indistinct and there is general laughter at this point]. So it's very interesting. But it just strikes me that there's an enormous amount of control over process, making sure...
ID: Oh, definitely, yes, yes
FGG: ...that things didn't get lost. But I mean, did stuff ever get lost? Did did a family ever get the wrong sheets back? Oh, shock horror.
ID: No,
FGG: No. [Laughter]
ID: in case anybody's listening, in case anybody's still waiting. But no, I think the staff that Dad had, mainly ladies of course, I shouldn't say of course. Were very dedicated, very, very dedicated.
FGG: Was there a lot of training involved for them? Do you know or were they thrown in the deep end?
ID: No, I don't think so I think Dad always had problems finding van drivers to deliver the, um funnily enough they tend to be ladies as well. And he, he provided trousers and jackets and caps. They looked very smart.
FGG: Yeah, and I suppose that was part of the image of the service, wasn't it really?
ID: yes, yes, well they were in the front line, they were the...[indistinct]
FGG: So, um, you were helping out, with lino repairs and sorting out hampers and things? What about Michael, um and Adrian? Did they also help?
ID: Um, I can't remember the, Adrian I think being too young wouldn't have been down there. But in later years, but Michael went off to boarding school.
FGG: Right.
ID: So, we lost Michael for quite a few years. He was at boarding school. And we travelled down every month to see him and sport days and fetes and things like that, so that was nice.
FGG: Yes, that was a sort of an outing...
ID: Yes, yes.
FGG: ...to go down there. Very lovely. Okay, so… so back into the laundry. And you've mentioned all these the staff who worked there, um and the different jobs that they were doing, I mean, do any of the staff that your father had? Do any of them stick in the memory for any particular reason?
ID: Um... Henry, I think he was the guy in charge of the boiler house and the steam and the machinery. And we always got on well together and he would actually give me a few jobs to do. But the ladies No, they teased me a lot.
FGG: They did do your homework.
ID: Well, yes. [Frances laughs] And they failed as well. [More laughter]
FGG: So in the time when you were a boy helping out and being given these various jobs, and then growing up to be a teenager, I mean, do you remember any particular crises or anything that was a difficult phase for the laundry at all?
ID: Only I think that he got too big. And he was running out of steam. But when I mean that he was running out of steam to operate the machines. And so we had a new boiler house built, he had a special boiler made for him. And that was delivered and installed. And I was very interested to see how that all happened. So yeah, so we had a new boiler to increase the steam to increase production,
FGG: Yes, of course, literally it is the phrase running out of steam, isn't it. So tell me, where physically… so the laundry if you can describe where it was physically and then where this new boiler house is built?
ID: Well, you had the Three Tuns public house in St Andrew Street, if you turn down the side of that, that's Brewhouse Lane. And of course that reminds you of when there used to be a brewery down there at one time. And, Dad in fact took over two or three of the old buildings down there, which were derelict [?]...er...
FGG: Um, yeah,
ID: And um he developed that. So yes, that's.. that's what happened, you turned down Brewhouse Lane. On the right hand side, you'd have Simpson Pimms, which was the envelope and stationery manufacturer a little bit further down, there was a row of terraced houses, four or five of them. And then at the bottom, on the right, there was a few terraced houses. And then behind those terraced houses, Simpson Pimms, had one of their warehouses. If you turned left, then that went into the area of the old brewery. And that's where dad had his laundry. And running at the back of all this was a river that went into Hartham.
FGG: And I suppose it just thinking about this then so your father came down with your mother from Norfolk, went to London, and then came to Hertford to build this laundry? And I can't quite remember what why was it Hertford that he came to? Can you remember? What do you know? No, no, it's interesting, isn't it?
ID: He, he was living in Watton-at-Stone at the time with an aunt and uncle.
FGG: Yes, so, yes
ID: Um...I don't know. Perhaps it was the premises that became available. But that was a little while later 'cos initially, he would get another laundry to do his work. He, he didn't have the facilities to do the washing or the laundry or the ironing. So he'd take that to other laundry. So he'd pick up the laundry during the day, take it over to one of these other laundries. They would do the work. He'd pick it up next morning and take it to the houses. And they were none the wiser. But er... No, its outsourcing. Yes. As the work increased, he needed to find a premises, and I think the first thing he bought was a copper… copper, to boil the water, and do the washing.
FGG: But and then from your point of view, you know, really the business was well established, wasn't it?
ID: When I was...
FGG: As a child you're growing up...
ID: Yes, yes I'm sorry I'm...
FGG: ... no, no, it's very helpful, because it all sort of shows how it all kind of happened. And you're growing up in this context, your father's really established a great business. And there you are, you and your two brothers sort of growing up in that sense of a really well-established business and, and a growing business so that he's going to invest even more.
ID: Yes, the only little hiccup is that the...government at the time, decided to take all the laundry outsourced away from hospitals, which was Dad's largest customer. And they had to do it in house. So, he did struggle a lot. I knew he was upset. I mean, he was always angry. Because when you get a third or half of all your work taken away overnight, then of course, he… he didn't know what to
FGG: do. And how old were you, um...?
ID: I've got to be about 15, 14 or 15.
FGG: Yes, so, so still a lad but but old enough to see that your father was...
ID: Yes, yes, yes,
FGG: ...really struggling with this. Yeah. And were there discussions at home about it?
ID: Not that I can remember. I do remember that Dad decided to go into bagwash. Whereas the customer would send the laundry in, but it wouldn't be ironed or pressed. It would be just spun dry, back in the bag for the customer, then the customer ironed it or whatever they've done with it. And that was quite successful.
FGG: Yes, yes. So...
ID: managed to to increase the work because he wasn't finishing the job for the ironing. It was all coming back and you the customer had to iron it
FGG: And was there a sense, do you think that of getting then a lot more customers, different customers coming in who hadn't used you before?
ID: I would have thought a few of them. But then again, once that system takes hold, and the customer, of course would go for the cheaper version perhaps and get it just back washed.
FGG: Right. I can see.
ID: I don't know that. But we lived...big house. big home.
FGG: Yes.
ID: But the customers if they wanted to cut back, I should imagine on their laundry bill then it would be bag wash. Yeah.
FGG: So, things were changing a bit.
ID: Yes, yes.
FGG: So, you're 14 or 15 at this stage. So...
ID: Can I just quickly say that when you're going to bagwash you have to wash each individual customer's laundry together in a compartment. There's no big pile of laundry and everybody's sorted then back to your customer. So, dad had to get machines made that will only wash a bag at a time.
FGG: Right.
ID: So instead of one washing machine taking eight or nine different customers in one go, it will be eight separate compartments.
FGG: And for people who are reading this transcript it is worth asking the Museum to see the video you've made because...
ID: That could explain everything.
FGG: ...a fantastic set of clips showing those and that is amazing to see actually, because I've never seen a machine like that. But again, you've got to be well organised to get on top.
ID: Yes, Dad was.
FGG: Yeah, so i can see you definitely need it. Now, when we met before just to talk about doing this interview, I remember you describing the creaking of the…, the hampers creaking
ID: Yes, it was when I was down there in in the laundry on my own doing these jobs, all the hampers will be creaking, it would get very spooky. I enjoyed it. So [laughs]...
FGG: I can imagine!
ID: yeah. Once you get used to it was fine. Yes, yes.
FGG: Very spooky on your own.
ID: Yes, to start with, but it was okay. Because then you've got the steam in the pipes cooling down making noises. And some of the belts on the machines would start to string back and it was full of noises
FGG: even though the industry stopped, the whole place..[Ivor says something indistinctly]..had a life of its own As long as no hamper opened and a sheet rose up [laughs]
ID: no, unless my younger brother was in there. [laughter] But of course Henry would come in very early in the morning to make sure the boiler was up and running to get the steam pressure up for the laundry to open up again. So it was ongoing thing.
FGG: Yeah. So he what sort of time would he start?
ID: I don't know. I think he cycled down from Sele Farm say at about six in the morning.
FGG: Right. But his surname at all, Henry no, just wondered yeah. Right. So early...
ID: Henry nice, man.
FGG: Yes, Henry. Nice, man. Yeah. So he got that all going and that really without that you can't do anything. No. Amazing.
ID: Then of course, at weekends when it closed Dad wasn't doing any more work in the Laundry say, after lunchtime on a Saturday, although he'd be going off to the masons in the afternoon, which tended to be what you did. Um...Sunday be maintenance day, and I'd go down and help with the maintenance.
FGG: Right. What sorts of things are...
ID: the boiler needed cleaning out and the um scrap underneath would need to be pulled out um clinker, isn't it? I think?
FGG: Yeah. Yes. Right.
ID: and um greasing the belts, the belts had um because it was all belt-driven the machinery. You had a big long tube of solid wax, then you'd hold it on the belt. But you wouldn't get away with doing it now. And things like that. And then the cloths on the machine on some of the ironing machines and ironing boards would need replacing, cleaning of the irons themselves.
FGG: And how did you know how to do these things?
ID: Um...because I was George's son.
FGG: So, you've learned from him?
ID: Yes
FGG: And Henry presumably as well?
ID: Well, him yes, yes. Yeah.
FGG: Yes. So I mean, looking back now everything is so health and safety driven now, isn't it? Yeah. Look back and think, aarghh [laughs]
ID: No, I enjoyed it. I look back and think how unlucky people are today not to see at all.
FGG: It does sound that there was a glorious amount of freedom...
ID: Yes
FGG: ...to do things that was really lovely. So I just wonder that I've had I mean, here you are a boy growing up in Hertford, your father has got this really well established laundry industry and it's gone through changes, but he's been inventive and talked about how to cope with them. Do you recall how the laundry was seen within the town by others?
ID: I think Dad was a very well respected, and I think that reflected on his laundry.
FGG: What about your friends, school friends? Did you talk about what your father's did, different professions?
ID: No
FGG: But presumably, many of your friends, their parents would be using the laundry?
ID: Yes, yes, of course. Yes. But I think the friends that I had at the time. That was the furthest thing from their mind. The laundry. I mean, yep.
FGG: yeah, yeah. Yes.
ID: I think they would have been amazed if they came in and saw the machinery working. And the hustle and bustle of the work. Yeah,
FGG: no, I just wondered if you some of them were they kind of wanted to come in and have a look, and curious? So, no, interesting isn't it? Yeah.
ID: Shattering for them. But then yeah,
FGG: they wanted to come play in your garden instead. [laughs] So just describe your recollections of George as a father so I'm interested now in the person the man and what he was like for you and your brothers.
ID: Yes. Um...I think it all started when he bought a little caravan and which enabled us to go off I mean not....we enjoyed going to Spain a few times, which is for weeks at a time, and Italy. So we had, we had a very good holiday life together in the caravan.
FGG: Right. So how old were you when that was?
ID: I must have been about 11 then. 10 or 11.
FGG: So, I would say that that was quite a lovely thing and unusual or unusual at that time and at that age it wasn't it to have...
ID: Well, there was no Ryan airlines, get a ticket or anything like that. It was down to Dover straight on the ship, which you don't do now. Of course, there was hardly any motorways of course in France at the time, but it was great. It was fine. It was very educational.
FGG: So, George is now seeming to me like a bit of an adventurer. He liked to do these things?
ID: yes, definitely, yes yes.
FGG: And just planning that sort of holiday is, was a lot harder then wasn't it? Because, you've not got the internet to...
ID: No that's true, I think. Yeah, things like petrol vouchers, which course you had to take with you. Money exchange. Yes, it was a lot to do.
FGG: And do you feel either that, you know, although your father worked hard and was absent doing work and Masonic sort of engagements, do you feel that having those times together, in a sense, gave you a sense of your father?
ID: Yes, yes that was the family time together. Yes,
FGG: Yeah. Did you feel, you know, close to him? Did you get on well?
ID: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes yes, yes. No, I thoroughly enjoyed working for him, what's the word..
FGG: And you do you feel you've inherited traits of his?
ID: If I can just give you some idea of Michael. When he left boarding school he came down to the laundry and worked in the laundry. I was not really ever interested in it. If they wanted maintenance done every single day of the week, then of course, I would have made…. But I was always very interested in the theatre, TV, and film business. And I thought that's the sort of avenue that I'd like to, to go down. So, no I didn't go back down the laundry. Although we were there occasionally, yeah. You'd see me getting into this period now where Dad had lost his biggest customer. Michael, I don't think was really interested in taking over the business. I think Dad would have loved me to take over the business, because I've spent so much time down there. And it must have been very disappointing to him to have one of his sons not going to the business. I've branched out and went elsewhere.
FGG: What about Adrian?
ID: No. At that time, Adrian left school and became an apprentice mechanic, at Hoddesdon Motor Company. At the end of the High Sreet. He specialised in diesel engines, which is a bad word today. Yes, so he.. he had a good life as a maintenance mechanic of the garage. And he was very heavily involved in Hertford Camera Club. He used to take lots of photos and enter into competitions and things like that.
FGG: So okay, yeah. So, so your father then, obviously would have seen Michael growing up, and then you come along, and you're very interested in helping out and doing things. So your father must, I can see he must have thought Ivor's sorted for the laundry. Yeah. Where did this other interest come from then Ivor in theatre TV, and film
ID: I think when I was at school, I joined Hertford Dramatic and Operatic Society, and I had a very good time there because I got heavily involved with the backstage. And that was, then we used to make our own sets going back in those days. But now of course, you buy a set, or rent a set for a week and then that turned up on a Friday morning, we'd get it all up and ready for the Saturday matinee. And off we go. So yes, I've always very, very been interested in the theatre film industry.
FGG: That captured your imagination.
ID: Fabulously, so much so that when the careers officer lady came to the school, I was very excited to explain to her what I wanted to do. And I think she was upset I didn't want to go as apprentice or a gas fitter, or an electricity board. She had never been asked before about the film industry.
FGG: No, crikey.
ID: So, it was a fairly short interview. It never went...
FGG: she wasn't able to help?
ID: ...none at all. No, no, no, she did sort of per...persuade me to go into Addis' as a maintenance person. But I mean, I only used toothbrushes for one thing so, but, luckily Dad had a receiving shop for the laundry in St. Andrew Street and the lady next door she had a hair salon and I think her name was Jean Bibbington. And her son worked for a TV company in London. It was either ATV or Granada at the time. And he was on the David Frost show. He produced or directed or whatever it was on that. And he asked if I'd like to go up for the whole series, not to work on the set, unfortunately, because you can't, you're not allowed to do that. But I was involved. Well, there's no audience and we just sat down. And it was nice. Really just being there with all the stars and talking to them. Ronnie Corbett, Ronnie Barker, John Cleese, Barry someone but we would we would all be sitting together, we'd be talking like this.
FGG: What an amazing experience.
ID: They perhaps at the time weren't that famous. And we had a good time together. I enjoyed that very much mixing with the stars.
FGG: Are you in your? Where are you in age, then?
ID: Just before I left school? yes.
FGG: Yes. So, it's still really early on, and you're working at what you want to do with your life?
ID: Yes.
FGG: And here you are mixing with all these people.
ID: Yes, mixing with all these people. It was absolutely fabulous. I enjoyed every minute of it. But it was only for two weeks, I think it was, because that's how long the show the whole five shows took to do although they went out live. At the end. It was it was great. So I'd go up on the Sunday and watch the live performance as well.
FGG: And your…. Obviously, it seems that you just had a complete conviction that this is what you wanted to do. And so did you. I mean, because really, it's a very broad canvas anyway, in terms of jobs in that TV sector. And so did you know what you wanted to do, or?
ID: I would have like to have been on the studio floor in the set, set erector. While I was there, I applied for a job. I was accepted for an interview in London, we went up there with Dad. And they said yes, they'd be very pleased. What I had to get was an equity card or something at the time because they said oh, yes, you know, you can start next week and you spent three years in the post room.
Now, I've got a rough idea what a post room is, but I didn't really want to spend three years in a post room. So that went out the window. Very upset, very disappointed, but I still had Hertford Dramatic Operatic Society to fall back on, which I thoroughly enjoyed. And Wood Brothers at Ware were advertising for apprentice cabinetmakers. So I went along. And they, I got accepted. So I went on the bench with another cabinetmaker, Charlie. And I learnt the profession with Charlie, as much as I could learn, yes, very good. He would get his wages and he would pay me out of his wages, I got basic rates. So that's how it worked. And it was very, very good. And then I ended up the bench on my own. I was making reproduction oak furniture for Wood brothers Ware.
FGG: Fantastic.
ID: That is where I met my best friend Peter, he was, we came to the interview together the same day, and we've known each other since.
FGG: And what is his surname, Peter?
ID: Peter, Peter Morrison.
FGG: Peter Morrison. All right, lovely. So really, from that early time in the laundry, you couldn't have predicted the way your career would go, could you? I don't think but do you think any early experiences
ID: Although I always wanted to be hands on with something.
FGG: Because it seems that from an early stage, you were keen to get in and sort of get a feel for stuff and you know, mend it and fix it and build it?
ID: That's right. Yeah. And it's been a satisfying career. Oh. Definitely. 100% Yes, it's enabled me to travel a lot of the world with the companies that I've worked for, in the Middle East palaces and things like that.
FGG: And so tell us a little bit about that actually. So, you're you've obviously got these skills now of making fine furniture and you are going to kit out these palaces there all...
ID: Well, they moved on slightly. Um...dare I say young lady, at the time that I was courting. She decided to go off to Spain and seek, and seek a new life, which was fine. Well I thought if you can do it, I can. So I went to the foreman, George Leggett at the time, and he, I said, look, I'd like to leave. I'm in no hurry to leave at all, you know, because it's not easy finding cabinetmakers straight off, come off the boat. So, he said oh well that'd be lovely. You know, you can say as long as you like until we find somebody else. That afternoon, he said oh the manager wants to have a word with you. So I said oh, that's nice. So, I went along, thinking I am going to get a bonus or something. And Laurie, I think his name was, the manager. He called me in the office and sat down, and he said oh, Ivor, I hear you are wanting to leave. I said, well, there is no hurry, I says, when you find somebody else I'll leave, then. He said, well, we're thinking of making you into a supervisor on the on the shop floor. And I thought, oh, that sounds really nice. I said, can I have my money at the end of the week?
FGG: Yeah. [laughs]
ID: I didn't spend nine years with Brothers to be told that. So, I said no, I'm going. I'm going, I'm heading off. Yes.
FGG: So, some of your father's adventurous spirit I think there?
ID: most probably yes. Yeah. I was very fortunate that the transport manager heard of my plight, he came up and he said I don't blame you for going [indistinct] the company treat you that. He said, what are you going to do, I said I'm going to hitch-hike around Europe. He said that, he said, would you like a lift to Switzerland? He said, because we've got a lorry going out next week to Switzerland. Would you like to be on it? I said, I'd love to be, Thank you very much. Went home, packed me bag, and that was it. So, the lorry picked me up, Peter and his young lady at the time took me to Dover. We waited on the seafront for the big Wood Brothers’ lorry to turn up, jumped in the cab, um, with three or four days later, I was Switzerland. And I got out of the lorry, and I thought now what am I doing? Getting in the lorry at Dover, and then getting out in Switzerland? Yeah. What do I do now?
FGG: Well, it's a very good question. What was the answer?
ID: I persevered and carried on? and I had a whole year travelling. Ended up in Israel on a kibbutz for two months.
FGG: Gosh, and how are you supporting yourself? Just taking, yeah odd jobs?
ID: Yeah.
FGG: Amazing. It's a fantastic experience to have.
ID: Yes.
FGG: And then bring us back really to the UK? I mean, how tell us two things, what brought you back to the UK and what did you then do? And also, how did you meet Barbara?
ID: Aaah...how long have you go?
FGG: Well, [laughter] as I said, I've got 12 hours of battery!
ID: [indistinct] and I, er, Peter went to Peter's place he lived at, in Hoddesdon at the time. And that was Christmas Eve. And he took me back to see Mum and Dad on Christmas morning. And I walked into the house and wished a merry Christmas. From there on in. It, it said that I had to stay in the UK and get a job and I did I got a job at Baker Norman in Welwyn Garden City making pine furniture.
[post interview amendment from Mr Defty: The company, Baker Norman, was actually Ian Robertson Holdings and they were a pine manufacturer. I went on from there to Baker Norman who made bespoke furniture and travelled with them to the Middle East. In fact they were asked to repair a desk for the Queen Mother which I was asked to do, never heard of any complaints!]
FGG: Right.
ID: And how else do you want me to...
FGG: yeah, well...So meeting Barbara?
ID: Well, yes. We, we met at the Nocturne Nightclub in Stevenage.
FGG: Okay,
ID: it was above the Mecca at the time. And we went there. A little bit embarrassing, but we went with my dad.
FGG: Go on.
ID: He, he wanted to hear, he had friends over the time, from Belgium. And they wanted to go out to a dinner dance, but it … a nightclub. Oh, I think it might have been a little bit noisy. So yes, we were there. And also while we're dancing on the floor, and I thought we're not going to turn this opportunity up and, er,. I went over and asked her to dance and if we could carry on and she said yes, I would love to be with you Ivor. [Frances laughs] You know, not in so many words but we met and we courted it and....
FGG: Yes, fantastic. Very nice. Yeah. And so you settled in the area and so you your career, profession then stayed in making furniture you said and what was the final stage of your career and where were you based in the run up to retirement then?
ID: I haven’t retired yet!
FGG: Oh, you still going, this was an assumption, yes [Laughs]
ID: I got a job at this company. Like I said Baker Norman. A lot of their contracts are in the Middle East. We'd make all the furniture for the palaces in Hertford. And that would be shipped off and then when the container docked in Jeddah or wherever we would fly out and put it altogether. Couple of months at a time, it was lovely, it was a really nice lifestyle.
FGG: what an exciting...yeah...
ID: Dad became poorly. We lost my Mum. And then it wasn't long after that we lost my younger brother and that left Dad on his own. And, and so I helped Dad as much as I could. Um, we got him a dog to look after but he kept tripping over and well wasn't, didn't work out very well. And he wasn't very happy down the shop. So eventually we managed to get him into a nursing home. Yes, when we lost him too, Mum first, Adrian my younger brother, which wasn't expected, and me Dad.
FGG: yeah, yeah. What about Michael?
ID: … as from that point, I never really had much more contact with Michael. I don't know, going back many years whether it was going to boarding school took a big chunk out of … our life. We were playing together. We were bestest friends. And we've done everything together. And then when Michael came back, it seemed very strange. Yes, yeah. He decided to go into the paint business. He's a paint technician. And he worked for companies like that travelling about. But after Dad dying, we sort of lost contact.
FGG: Yes, yes. Yes. It's not uncommon is it?
ID: oh, I don't know. We were upset that he didn't come to the funeral and just went on from there. So it, it is a part of my life that...
FGG: Fair enough. Fair enough. No. But But you've had an extraordinary life with you and the travelling and you must have seen some amazing places.
ID: Yes, yes. Well, Barbara, and I've done a lot of travelling, um, perhaps I should just say I adopted our son, Carl, and we've all done a lot of travelling together, Barbara, and I've been around the world. And we left Carl at home he wouldn't do that, and most of Europe, we've run ski chalets in the Alps. We've lived in the South of France. So we've had a nice time together. And I'm a bit of a train buff. So I did, went often done two weeks on the Orient Ex, on the Orient Exp..., The Trans-Siberian, which was fabulous. And then I enjoyed that so much I've done the unification line from Vietnam to Cambodia. [indistinct] That's trains.
FGG: Trains are lovely. Yes, yes. Have you got any trips planned?
ID: here's two or three that I'd like to do. Yes, yeah. Although it's very, very well organised. In America there's five very good steam train places in one area. You can go off and go and do all those. But I think that's a long way off. Yeah.
FGG: Right. Okay, fantastic. Well, marvellous. All right. So look, we've sort of talked for an hour.
ID: Oh, really?
FGG: Yes [laughs]. It does go quickly. I think, you know, my closing question really was you, now you look back as an adult, on your formative years. Do you...?
ID: Sorry, I forgot to mention.
FGG: Yeah, go on
ID: we did lose our son last year.
FGG: Oh, no, I'm sorry to hear that.
ID: So, it's just Barbara and me now. And that was very unexpected.
FGG: Gosh, yes.
ID: It's, it's still very difficult
FGG: Of course it is. Yes. Because that's very, it's untimely, isn't it and, you know...
ID: Yes, and very, very unexpected.
FGG: And it takes a lot off...
ID: It does.
FGG: Yes, I'm very sorry to hear that. And where do other family live? Are they too far away? Or,
ID: We are now left with two grandchildren, which is nice to look forward to seeing them as much as we can, and their Mum too. No, no, no, just the other side of Ware.
FGG: Oh,
ID: Yeah. No, it's not [indistinct].
FGG: That's all right isn't it. Yes.
ID: In fact, we're taking Jake to karate tonight, at Har, Bengeo not far from my school where we used to go. So, we've travelled all the way from Bengeo school, primary school,
FGG: all around the world, and then back again
ID: Back to karate
FGG: Funny how that happens often, isn't it? We sort of go back to our roots or we are drawn back.
ID: Yeah.
FGG: Very interesting. And yes, with some sadness, but...
ID: yes, yes,
FGG: ...still a lot to look forward to.
ID: Well, yes, it's very difficult but...
FGG: Yeah, it is. No, I understand that. And so then, as you look back at your childhood, do you have any thoughts about growing up and your father in the family that sort of struck you now as an adult looking back, that you kind of weren't really aware of maybe when you were a child,
ID: I can only say that I think I had a fabulous upbringing. Very enjoyable. Luckily, Mum and Dad and two brothers. I can't pick anything really out of it that stands out, but it was yeah. We had a fabulous time together.
FGG: Yes. And that really comes across...
ID: Fabulous … together.
FGG: Yes, yes, it does. I mean, all the fun of it all and the engagement of your different interests.
ID: With the little hiccup of perhaps Michael going to boarding school which took a chunk out of our relationship, it was fine, it was lovely.
FGG: Excellent anything else you want to add or…
ID: thank you for joining me.
FGG: It's our pleasure. It's really interesting talking to you. So we'll stop the recording there then.
ID: ok.
End of recording