Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Geall, Jill (O2023.5) |
| Interviewee | Jill Geall (JG) |
| Interviewer | Peter Ruffles (PAR), Trish Goldsmith (TG) |
| Date | 25/10/2023 |
| Transcriber by | Stephen McEnally (using Otter.Ai for initial transcript) |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording No: O2023.5
Interviewees: Jill Geall (JG)
Date: 25th Oct 2023
Venue: Fordwich Rise, Hertford
Interviewers: Peter Ruffles (PAR), Trish Goldsmith (TG)
Transcriber: Stephen McEnally (using Otter.Ai for initial transcript)
Typed by: Stephen McEnally
Reviewed by: Mark Green
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
PAR: So - it’s the 25th of October 2023 and Trish Goldsmith and I are at the home of Jill Geall and Peter Crossley, 47, Fordwich Rise. And we're here to talk to Jill, about her various roles in the Hertford community. So, Jill, were you born here, at 47, at Fordwich Rise?
JG: No, but I was born in Bengeo during the War. So, it was at a nursing home half way up Port Hill. So, the first 10 days of my life were in Hertfordshire, Hertford, Bengeo. From then on, I was in Nazeing, crossing the borders into Essex, which caused huge problems with education, etc., etc. Then - -err- then, I was christened at Waltham Abbey, which was the Methodist Church that my parents attended - then, but - then we had to move to Hoddesdon Methodist Church, because it was deemed that we could only have petrol allowance for the nearest church of our denomination. So, Hoddesdon Church came into our life. Which, actually, the foundation - one of the foundation stones was laid by my grandfather, Mr. Benjafield, which is on the wall outside the Methodist Church.
PAR: Thank you. That’s got that routed. And so, when did you come to 47 Fordwich Rise? And how do you say the name of the house?
JG: Anaga, which is - Don and I honeymooned in the Canary Islands. But to get there, we went on a banana boat, which was called the Monte Anaga and - no, it was called the Anaga. And there is a mountain on the Canary Islands called Monte Anaga. So, November, December 1964 saw us on a banana boat. Two weeks down in the Canary Islands, waiting for the banana boat to come back - up to Liverpool and back down again because we'd taken it from Liverpool. And we had stayed the night before in the Stork Hotel in Liverpool [chuckles and laughs] waiting for the boat, which amused me from my honeymoon. But it didn't bring forth the first child, actually. [general laughing]
PAR: And so, did you move straight into this house?
JG: No. We moved into - well - not immediately. We were up in Brickendonbury for six months because our house in - our new house - in Chandler's Way was not completed. So, we were in Chandler's Way from May ‘65 until November 1970 when we came here, and have been very happy to be here for 53 years next week.
PAR: Ah, yes, and what was this house like at the time – did you - have you extended it, because it does -?
JG: Have we extended it? Yes, a lot. When we moved in – well, we couldn't move in until it had been rewired. It was a condition of our mortgage that it had to be completely rewired. It had been built in the War to rehouse a doctor, and the word - the name will come to me and it will come hopefully - but he lived - he worked - at – err - Allen & Hanbury’s and had been bombed of his house - out of his house - in North London. So, they were allowed to build this house to rehouse him so that he was still near his work – for the duration.
PAR: So, was it a gap between the rest of the -?
JG: It must have been. It must have been because there's two semis either side.
PAR: They are 1930s, aren’t they?
JG: Yes, ‘38‘ish, I think. Yes, yes. So, hence, we have different floorboards, upstairs and down and different doors upstairs and down because it was all what was available in the War. But we very happily moved in, once it had been rewired by Don's brother, Ken, who was an electrician. So that was really handy. And then Don spent each evening decorating for the six weeks that we’d had it before we moved in proper. And they, the lovely doctor and his wife, had let us do that, although it hadn't been signed, sealed and settled. But in those days, I suppose you could get away with it.
PAR: Yes, yes. So, we've talked to Don in the past and his tape is in the Museum. Briefly, how did you meet?
JG: We met at the Hertford Rugby Club on a Saturday evening. I went up there with a friend and I knew quite a lot of people up there. I didn't know Don but I very quickly did get to know him.
PAR: He was easy to get to know, wasn't he!
JG: [laughs] He was a very ‘person person’. Yes, yes. So, we got - yeah - we were together. Well - not living together. You didn't live together in those days. But yes, so we got married in November ‘64. And had 37 years, I think, because he died in 1999. Which was 25 – [2]4 years ago yesterday, actually.
PAR: Yes, yeah. I’ve got that in my diary.
JG: Have you? Oh right!
PAR: So, a little - although we can play another tape, which is Don - just tell us a little bit about him and his connections and business.
JG: Right. Don was born in Bull Plain, in Hertford. And when I was Mayor, we went to the opening of Canvas Travel in Bull Plain. And we walked through one of the rooms upstairs and Don happily told them, ‘This is where I was born’. [laughs] So, he was born and brought up in Hertford, and was in Hertford until he went to the Navy for four years, nine months and 26 days, he reminded me very regularly! And that's his boat up there on the - HMS Rifleman.
And – err – so - he was one of - he was the eldest of three boys. And he - they had a café in Bull Plain, which was why he was born over – over - the top in Bull Plain. And there was three boys, Don was the job and builder, eventually. Ken was the electrician and Roy was the bricklayer. Three boys, all of whom died of some sort of heart disease - or whatever - problem. But whose parents both lived to 89 and 91. Fit and just amazing.
PAR: So - so he was a man with lots of contacts and lots of introductions to be made of his new wife, to a lot of Hertford people. So, it really was a good, good person to –
JG: It was a good person to know. But I was absolutely delighted when we were walking together down Fore Street. And I said hello to somebody and Don said, ‘Who was that?’ [laughs] I felt I'd arrived in Hertford, because he did know almost everybody, it appeared. Because he was always around with his van and his ladders. And his shorts and his -
PAR: Yes, yes. And so, we mentioned Peter Crossley.
JG: Yes. Right. So, Peter and I have been together now for five years, I think it is. But Peter and I knew each other as teenagers, and we met at the Youth Club following an evening service at Broxbourne Church. We were friends, only friends because he was an avid sailor at Broxbourne Sailing Club, etc., etc. And that wasn't my forte at all. But - so, we had remained in contact. He'd got married - well - I got married, then he got married. He had three children. He eventually landed up living in Reading. But we met up every few years when we had reunions of the Broxbourne Youth Club. About every five years to start with. And then, as we got older, it made it three years and then two years. And I carried on going after Don had died. And Mary and Peter came. And I was delighted when Peter came after Mary had died, because I did wonder, because he lived in Reading, and so on, and so on. But, anyway, so that was the start of our relationship, and which has been very happy. And we're both absolutely thrilled to bits that we're having golden days long after our 70th birthdays. [general laughter]
PAR: Lovely. So - Jill - a long time ago, but - I can say that because –
JG: - it was a long time ago!
PAR: We were both, each of us, in our respective turns, the Mayor, the first citizen of Hertford. And that was in –
JG: For me, it was 1981-82.
PAR: And big changes have happened to local government, for Hertford, particularly, only a very few years -
JG: - in 19 - in 1973.
PAR: Yes, yes.
JG: So – when - so, I mean, I was never involved when it was the Borough. I was too busy bringing up little ones. But very aware that actually, although Hertford’s the County Town, a lot of people think St. Albans is, because it's got the Abbey and so on and so on. So, we - we were lucky, we were an old Town Council, old Borough Council had all the mayoralty regalia, which fortunately, some people managed to make sure that we kept. And it was with the hugest of pride that I wore it. And the tears are coming up now.
PAR: Yes.
JG: And I had wished my parents were there. And - but I had certainly wished that my grandfather, my mother's father, had been present because he, in 1951-2, had been Mayor of Salisbury. For which, when he was made Mayor, we had a day off school to go down. And I can still remember it. So, my father and my mother - my mother didn't give service, if you like. But I think I, in respect, in retrospect, I admire her greatly because she had trained as a teacher for three years, and then had taught for all of four terms and got married. And at that point, you couldn't be a married lady and a teacher. But so, she - she moved from London, to our home that Dad had built in Nazeing. But that was in 1934. And she'd got a brain. And she just supported Dad in every single way – in whatever he did, whether it was being trustee of the Church, or the business of growing the cucumbers and tomatoes.
And before the Italians came in, we all had to do. On a Sunday morning, before we went to church, we had to pick the tomatoes and cucumbers that were ready. So, you know, life was different, but for Mum, she was the homemaker. And she was a very good home maker. But Dad, self-employed, obviously, employing, trustee at the Church, local preacher. And he lived to be 91, can you believe. Sadly, with a brain problem at the end, which - he had had an incredibly – err - bad accident before they were married. And he was unconscious for a fortnight. And my mother gave blood at the time, and they had to wait to get married until he was well enough. But so - life continued, well.
Yes. So, following on my grandfather's service. And he was also a Rotarian, he was a county councillor. So, his life was interesting. And again, his wife was the great support of the Methodist Church in - in Salisbury and the district. So, it was - I hadn't realised - that, presumably, it's in the genes. And so – and – so - it took a while for it to come out for me.
PAR: And nurtured through church teachings as well.
JG: Yes.
PAR: Frequent nurturing.
JG: Yes
PAR: Because of the biblical requirement of us all.
JG: That's right.
PAR: So, you've been elected in 1976. To the -
JG: - mayoralty. No, no to the Council. Yes. Yes.
PAR: And fairly quickly afterwards. They asked you, your fellow councillors, to be the Mayor?
JG: And was I proud! Or was I proud! And was I scared! Or was I scared! So, my mayoral speech was the very first time that I had spoken in public. And I was really scared. So, I could share with you that I actually read it out loud to myself. I recorded it. I - I did everything to it. But when it was actually on the night, my father was there, as was my family, and I was holding the Bible that my father's mother had given me as a wedding present. And just imagining it, that grandpa was still there. And from there on, it became easier. The first is always the worst. And you always - I mean, in those days, the mayoralty was so much less - formal - formalised than it is now. It was just the Town Clerk, the Town Clerk’s secretary and me - other than the people that did the allotments or whatever. So, you know, you had to make your own way out of it, really.
PAR: Yes. So, the presentation side, the public face side, was what came into the diary and you had to fulfil. But we didn't have things like the rock presentations of the public. All sorts of things are laid on for the public, now, mostly free of charge by the Council. That wasn't there was it? And neither was the supporting staff that we have today. And there's a whole room full of people working to promote Hertford, to support Hertford, to provide events. You had.-
JG: So, when I was - when I was - I don't quite remember whether it was when I was Mayor, but certainly my council duration. I said, we've got to promote Hertford. There was nothing. So, it literally started round this table, not even as an official committee, but that we would meet and we’d say ‘OK, so what are we going to do to promote Hertford?’ And it was stupid things, if you like, but having pencils that said Hertford Town Council, or whatever. But we progressed that and it's a great pride to me that we now have a full Tourist Information Centre and a Publicity Committee and we do - do very lovely things for the people of Hertford at the Castle and around the Town. But not for the people only of Hertford. People come down from north London, and from all around the County, and- and that's huge.
PAR: And - you can't say it, but I can - but the turning point in all that was your mayoral year because previously they'd been treading water and, in the nicest possible way, in a dignified way. And formal to the extent that the office was, itself, treated very formally and correctly, as it should be. But that development - I mean, what did you have to change? I remember your Vintage Party?
JG: Oh, yes. Yes, I did change that, didn't I? I think I rocked a few boats there. But I decided that there would be an age – an und’ – an ov’ [hesitates]. An age limit. So, it meant that fewer people actually could attend.
PAR: What was it like beforehand? What were you - ?
JG: Oh, bedlam. [general laughter]
PAR: Can you describe, you know, the venue and the nature of the previous parties?
JG: Well - we've – I can remember -
PAR: I mean the Vintage Party still continues?
JG: Oh yes.
PAR: And is still called -
JG: - ‘The Vintage Party’!
PAR: ‘The Vintage Party’ even today?
JG: They - originally, I think, they were upstairs at the Corn Exchange. I can remember attending there.
PAR: Or downstairs.
JG: Oh, it was even downstairs, was it?
PAR: Yes, there wasn’t an upstairs then.
JG: Oh, OK. Right. And then we had them in the Castle Hall. But there was quite a free flowing of beer. And -
PAR: - cigarettes.
JG: Cigarettes, yes, yes. I just remembered.
PAR: Dirty blue songs on the stage?
JG: That's right, of course, yes. And I just thought. This - this has got to change. And it did. And it - after a couple of years, I think, you know, people accepted that.
PAR: How did you change it? What did you change it to?
JG: Well, we still had it at the Castle, didn't we?
PAR: I remember in the Corn Exchange there were long, long tables, benches.
JG: Oh, we had separate tables! That's right. Yes, of course! And so, we asked local organisations, clubs, churches, whatever, if they would host a party, a table. So, people would, sort of, when they came in, they said ‘which table should we get the best tea on’ or -
PAR: - each group provided their own sandwiches and cakes.
TG: Yes, I was involved with that, yes.
JG: And Sylvia Mears played the piano and we sang lovely songs rather than dirty ditties.
PAR: Yes, yes!
JG: And there wasn't free-flowing beer.
PAR: So, you got rid of the caterer, the standard caterer, who was paid to bring in doughnuts and cigarettes -
JG: - Yes, yes.
PAR: And the cigarettes were in bowls on the table for you to pull out? So that, that actually must have been quite a threatening time for you because it was a huge change and you were telling -
JG: It was. But I was determined. I just thought it wasn't right as it was. And, I'm afraid, if I got my teeth into something sometimes, you just have to upset a few people to make it work in the end.
PAR: What was there in - was there a sign of town-twinning, and that sort of thing?
JG: Oh, well, that was another first wasn't it? Yes, I actually went - Bill Maxwell who was Headmaster at Sele. And I don't even know how he made this connection with the School in Evron, in France, the nearest town of which is Le Mans or Laval. And he - they did exchanges with the School. And somehow it was thought that it would be a good idea to extend it to a town-twinning. A lot of people said, ‘Ooh, that cost the Council money!’. No, it didn't. We did it with fundraising privately. We went on a coach - that was about 30 of us, I suppose, that went on the very first coach to Evron to see whether - and we were treated royally and made hugely welcome. And they still are. But then was then – and - but we weren't twinned anything like by that -. That was just the first sort of foray into foreign parts, if you like. But - so, I got majorly involved. And I actually landed up being Chairman of the Twinning Association for many years. And one year I went to Evron four times. And my children became older. The first time I went to Evron, I left, Helen - I think Chantal - was Chantal already in Boarding School? Can't remember. Left Helen with a friend and Don and I went. And then we did the twinning, which was wonderful. I was Deputy Mayor, I think, by then because Andy Andrews was the Mayor that did the twinning himself. Lovely Andy Andrews. Um- but we've had many, many happy, happy, happy times in Evron and here and one of my-my memories - is of the Mayor of Evron, Monsieur Hubert Gueniffey washing up at my kitchen sink, because I had four of them stay in here. And we had such fun, but it was so - his wife could not believe it! [laughs]
PAR: Did you stay in France with families?
JG: Oh, always, always! I think, thought then, and I still think, that it's the best thing that you can do - is to sit around a table with your hosts or your guests, or whatever -
TG: Absolutely. Yes.
JG: - and chat. You get to know a whole lot more. And I was very lucky because both my girls, particularly Helen, had friends in Evron and we spent - they spent summer holidays over there. So, you know, it was a true twinning.
PAR: Twinning at its best, yes. And Wildeshausen?
JG: Wildeshausen. We met, I met the Bürgermeister, as he then was, and I can't remember his name because I don't remember anybody's names, anymore. I met him in Evron and he invited Don and I to go to the Wildeshausen to see what we thought. And again, we were treated like royalty. And it moved slowly. Possibly because I can speak French - well, I could - but not German. But a lot of the Germans speak English, anyway. But that led eventually, eventually to a twinning with them. So, we now have a triangle of Evron, Wildehausen and Hertford.
PAR: Yes.
JG: And we have had celebrations every five years in one or other of the towns until COVID stopped that.
PAR: Yes, yes. And last weekend, for example, there were people from Wildeshausen here. Two separate groups here and -
TG: Well, there was a group from the Baptist Church. One group from the Baptist Church and one group from Hertford over in Wildeshausen.
PAR: Two groups from Hertford the other side.
TG: Were there?
PAR: Yes, yes.
JG: Who is the second group?
PAR: Well, I was told because, I've walked some of the people from the Baptist Church twinning element around Hertford. So I was - I picked up the - the two. I mean, presumably, one may have been people going to visit their regular families in a routine way.
JG: May well have been - may well have been.
PAR: The incidental thing rather than the staged trip? But there were two in one direction or the other. I thought at first it was two lots here, but I'm now reminded, no, in fact it was -
JG: - one in and one -
TG: Nothing that’s said over there at all – no sign of anyone else there that was from Hertford.
JG: So, no, what I think you're saying is that there was one group from Hertford in Wildehausen and another group from Wildeshausen in Hertford. Maybe that’s -.?
PAR: Just one, no, no, there was a separate - I thought that was quite important, really. Because people were doing their thing through established individual friendships rather than being herded because there is a trip and you can buy your ticket to go on the coach or to fly. They were actually living the life -
JG: Yes.
PAR: - directly.
TG: There were another few - three or four went over about three weeks before us. Whether that’s the same thing, I don’t know -
PAR: Well, maybe. It doesn’t much matter.
JG: The present – the present Bürgermaster of Wildeshausen - Jens – lovely man, lovely wife. I stayed there once with Linda Radford.
PAR: Ah. Yes.
JG: We stayed with the Mayor. They made us very welcome. Two girls. And they - when they came over - they were dotty on Harry Potter.
PAR: Oh. Yes.
JG: So, I took them to the Harry Potter Experience. And they - they thought - they had so much street cred when they got home [laughs] They’d been to a Harry Potter Experience.
PAR: Yeah, well we’ve got to keep on - and keep the focus and the pace. So, we got you established as a sort of innovative mayor at a crucial time because the whole Council had changed, and you moved it forward. As Mayor, you’re ambassador for the town in other places. And the twinning will have done a lot of that international -
JG: Certainly.
PAR: - ambassador work. But you're also ambassador locally. Were there any – you didn’t particularly have any Royal Family come? Or did you need to go to other towns with the chain for Hertford?
JG: No, there was no actual, there, no royal bit during my mayoralty. I mean, I can remember Princess Margaret coming and opening the Castle Hall. I can remember Don and I going to a Garden Party at -err – um- where did the Queen Mum’s – in Hertford – outside Hertford -? Simon?
PAR: Simon Bowes-Lyon.
JG: Simon Bowes-Lyon. We went there for a Garden Party and the Queen Mum was there. But no actual royalty.
[There is an interruption to the interview when a dog comes into the room and is then ushered out]
PAR: So, nothing special in terms of a royal helicopter landing?
JG: No, there wasn't. Much sadness on my part because I would have loved that. When my grandfather was Mayor, he welcomed the Queen at Salisbury station, when she hadn't yet been crowned. But she was going to stay at Wilton House. But again, we had a day off to go and see this - and he - he said. She is soooo beautiful. And this was the sort of 26-year-old Queen, you know. So, so my, my grandfather did all the work in Salisbury town, ready for the Coronation. But, of course, the mayoralty changes in May and the Coronation was in June. [laughs] Yes! So, he didn't get that bit!
PAR: The annual world of the Mayor, as it were. But you were also elected to the District Council. Can we mention that just briefly?
JG: Yes, yes, I decided. I did do both councils for one term. But I was very definitely of the opinion that you were better if you were - I was certainly better - if I was only councillor on one council, because then you didn't get your wires crossed. You spoke as a town councillor, or as a district councillor. But so, I was - how many years on the Town? - eleven, I think. And then fifteen on the District. So - and landed up being Chairman of the District as well. Yes. Which some people think that's much grander than - more important. Me personally, I just thought that being the Mayor of Hertford was my zenith.
PAR: Yes. And you’d have been coming up to the 400th mayor. 400 years of mayors. Yes, the District is and the - the District by its own choice and decision isn't – um - a civic orientated. It's a very working, hard-working good. Has been a very good authority, but it doesn't do the - because, constitutionally in our territory, there are five towns, each with their own mayor and the town people tend to look to their own town only, not to their wider district. So other districts like St Albans and Watford, do have a mayor who's a focus. But we have five mayors, and much less of the civic.
JG: Yes.
PAR: It’s a working authority, chiefly, with all the functional things being legally done but not - But you were - you were Chairman of Planning?
JG: I was. That was - that was my main interest, as a town councillor and also on the district, and I landed up being the Chairman of the District Planning, which was no small thing, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Um - and it was helping to know what was going to happen to your town. Which was hugely important. And still is.
PAR: Yes, yes. So, that - is that your mayoralty - ?
JG: - Done and dusted?
[general laughter]
PAR: So, people can get a feel for it in years to come. How it was in our era, because in a few years’ time, it'll change and we've had a massive party-political change this current year.
JG: Haven’t we just!
PAR: The – the - new controlling party may have – they haven’t actually said so - but they - may have very different ideas. So, our mayoralty style may change under a new –
JG: I suppose that's evolution. I hope it doesn't change too dramatically, too quickly.
I really hope that because I think - I think we are so fortunate that what we've got is respected.
PAR: Yes - and - I think we can say it's worked.
JG: Yes.
PAR: And there are lots of things we haven't talked about, which is quite sensible. And now that the Town Council itself has introduced, like Trish Goldsmith and the -
JG: - Youth Council?
PAR: Youth Council and various - all sorts of other elements of things which have been a good product of the Town Council. The District has great difficulty doing those same things because of the size. So, a Youth Council for the District, which we have tried, just doesn't work. It's too big.
JG: And because Hertford, East Herts, is sort of 48 parish councils and five towns. It's hardly an entity whereas if you've got St. Albans, it's its own district.
PAR: Yes, yes.
JG: Watford is its own district.
PAR: Stevenage.
JG: Stevenage is its own district, but us and North Herts are an amalgam of so many - what's left, if you like.
PAR: So, Jill, while all this has been happening, your civic world and your international -
JG: - no, national! But maybe - anyway!
PAR: You've also been busy with other social things -
JG: Yes
PAR: - not connected directly with the Council. You're a Rotarian?
JG: I’m a Rotarian. I was the first lady Rotarian of Hertford. They'd always said ‘ohhh we don’t think we want the new Mayor, any women in our [indistinct] ‘. But they were being told, actually, from above that it was time that Rotary, sort of, took in some ladies. But they had invited me to speak to Rotary. And I did. Well I, spoke once as - when I'd been Mayor. And the next time was when David Kirby was the District, the Rotary -
PAR: - President
JG: President. And he had nominated the Newton Exhibition Foundation as his - one of his charities. Would I come and talk to them about that? So, I did. And then I think it sort of went round afterwards. ‘Well, if we’re going to have to have women, we do know her. Shall we ask her?’ [general laughter]
So, yes, so that was –
PAR: And she's got connections in the town. Yes, socially.
JG: Yes
PAR: So, you were finally quite a good cop, despite your unfortunate gender. But there we are.
JG: But there we are. So, yes, so, so, it shook a bit for a while. And then of course, you know, well, at one point, we had four or five ladies. And we have made a difference. And I have to say that, you know, most people know that Rotarians are getting older. And especially in Hertford. We've struggled to find younger members, but because we meet at lunchtime, that precludes a lot of people now, whereas in the old days, when it was the business people, they could happily leave their businesses for an hour on a Tuesday lunchtime, to whoever, and go back to work. But so, yes -
PAR: So, Rotarians, the Methodist Church.
JG: Methodist Church, yes. Oh, but then, yes,
PAR: You’ve also been -
JG: Oh, but then, yes, well now, here’s anoth-. The Methodist Church. The front was a blank wall, really. And a huge amount of fundraising went on to build what is now called the Oasis, which is front of house, and is a cafe. And I was on the little committee - well I said I'd help. And then somebody said, ‘Well, would you chair the getting-it-together?’ And I went, ‘why me?’ Somebody said, ‘Well, we think you'll make sure that it does it’. So, yes, that was another thing to be really pleased to have been involved with.
PAR: It’s a popular place, yes.
JG: And it's worked. It's worked - an open forum.
PAR: Interestingly, something fairly similar in the Methodist Church in Bishop’s Stortford .
JG: Very much so. I went there last week, because the Chairman of the whole of the Methodist Conference was preaching. And so, I hadn't been to Bishop’s Stortford since it had been enlarged or regenerated very successfully. And another Oasis.
PAR: A lot of glass. A lot of welcoming, you know. In the past, pubs used to have frosted windows and things like that. So, you never really knew -
JG: - who was in!
PAR: - unless you were a pub person who was inside. And churches can have that same - you don't really know what's inside. But you’re glass.
JG: Yes. People could see.
PAR: Floor to ceiling. Just is, is very tempting.
JG: And that's brought a load of people and sadly, not to the services, but it is very much a community.
PAR: Yes, under the roof and associating themselves.
JG: And yes, and volunteers. Nobody gets paid to do all the work there, serving the people.
PAR: Yes. I think the key other element that we want to talk to you about is your connection with quite a lot of charities. We've talked about the - the charity work in the community generally, but there are structured, formal, charitable bodies, that you've been connected with - quite a number of them.
JG: Quite a number. Yes.
PAR: And you're Chairman of several?
JG: Yes. So first of all, I think, I was Chairman of the Noble’s Charity, which was a tiny little charity. And we had all of 75 pounds, I think it was, to spend each year and we used to meet three times a year to sort out what we were going to do. And there were various charities all around the Town. The ancient - not all of the ancient charities but a lot of the ancient charities. So, John Sartin and I promoted and worked very hard to - called - make an amalgamation, of which we did. And it became Ancient Charities of Hertford. And -
PAR: How many of them?
JG: There was ten, I think, I think -
PAR: Yes, a large number of tiny, tiny –
JG - tiny charities. I actually got out a letterheading so I could - here we go – [unwraps a piece of paper sound of paper rustling and reads out]
‘Incorporating the Charity of Ann Dimsdale, Miss Jourdain’s Charity, Thomas Noble’s Charity. The Hallis Eli - I can't even say that – [sounds it out slowly] Elim Missionary Charity? I didn't know that one at all. The Hartford Connecticut Relief Fund and the Robert Partridge Fund.’
All became Ancient Charities of Hertford.
TG: Never heard of any of them. So, well, there you go.
JG: Well, there you go.
PAR: And they're all tiny, weren’t they?
JG: They were all tiny, very tiny. It was quite ridiculous. Luckily, whereas, before the Charity Commissioners have been ‘no, we can't change anything’, I think they saw common sense. And there were other towns and places that were amalgamated.
TG: Presumably, they were people that had left bequests.
JG: Oh, absolutely. Hundreds of years ago, hundreds of years ago.
PAR: And so, you, you pulled them all together?
JG: Yes.
PAR: Gave them a new collective title.
JG: Yes.
PAR: Which is, imaginatively, The Ancient Charities of Hertford.
JG: Took us a long time to come up with that one! (general laughter)
PAR: And then you chaired it. But how does – is it funded in any other way other than the residue in the capital accounts of those - ?
JG: No, The Ancient Charities of Hertford is not. And maybe it's because I've been laggardly. But I haven't actually been sitting on my backside. Maybe there should have been a bit of - more fundraising for it. But -
PAR: They’ve done - there has been - some.
JG: Yes.
PAR: But I wondered about - because we're going on to talk about one or two other charities that have got -
JG: - more funds.
PAR: Yes - kind of- a fund in the background that coughs up its own divi’, annually, that is distributed. And so, any action by the Ancient Charities of Hertford, really, if you're going to give away a couple of hundred pounds every now and again, means you've got to fundraise at intervals and make sure the coffers are full?
JG: Yes.
PAR: I, I imagine lots of other towns, not Milton Keynes and not Welwyn Garden City and not new towns, other ancient towns will have a similar kind of set of -?
JG: Probably.
PAR: Small charities where, as Trish says, people left money with a purpose and that purpose is defined forever.
JG: Yes, exactly.
PAR: And the Charity Commissioners examine it closely and make sure you stick with it but these all fitted your, your new umbrella.
JG: Yes, it’s included because some of the charities were not totally Hertford. There was some of them with small villages around. So, we've had to encompass those in it. But it is mostly Hertford people that benefit.
PAR: So, you’re Chairman. The grass money? (chuckle). You’re, you’re Chairman of the Newton Foundation. And they are quite busy, particularly the Newton.
JG: Yes, the Newton is the biggest.
PAR: Yes.
JG: And I find it (short pause) sad, but rewarding, that we can help youngsters. The basis is that they have to have been educated, or are still being educated, in Hertford. Or, if it's a special school, that it's where the Hertford children would go. And they can apply until they're 26 years old. And because I've been within it for so many years, we've seen, sort of, full cycle of the recipients - from somebody, way back when, needed a blazer because they were going to Hertford Grammar School and couldn't afford a blazer - and they were very expensive - to the people who were doing Operation Raleigh and wanted hundreds of pounds to go off abroad somewhere and further their education. Which was brilliant. But so, it's a very diverse - although it's self-cent’ - closely centred into who can benefit, the benefits therefrom are very wide.
PAR: Do you know how you came to begin?
JG: I do indeed. Council - Councillor Newton was a resident of Leicester and he was born in - in - you're gonna have to stop it (the tape) and start again.
PAR: Nah - we’ll wait
JG: You'll wait. OK. Put it like this. He set up the Trust in 1760 and the beneficiaries were to be children in Leicester, Ashby de la Zouch, Earl Shilton, Northampton, St. Neots, Hertford, Huntington, Bedford, and Buckingham. And he left a lot of money. He had married three times, financially successfully, but not successfully in – err - wives that lived. They had children, but none of the children survived. So, he died a rich man. But he'd left it in trust. And the names where the beneficiaries could be, were because, as I understand it, his wives had been associated with or he had in some way.
PAR: So, so Hertford was just fortunate that -
JG: - Hertford was just fortunate to receive a small amount. Well, one twelfth of the benefits every year. And we still do receive from Leicester, every year, two thousand pounds ‘ish, on a good year to the Newton Foundation. But we had - we have quite a large capital sum, which we obviously don't spend. We only spend the income therefrom. So, we spend about five thousand pounds a year? And we meet three times a year. We met last evening.
PAR: As trustees.
JG: As trustees, yes, to decide who was going to be able to benefit.
PAR: And there are a lot of urgent calls between those three main meetings.
JG: And we were told that we can't do it by email, we have to be quorate. So again, round this dining room table, we meet at half past five on a certain evening to decide - between meetings, if it's urgent - because if somebody's going off on a school trip next week, for instance, and they haven't got their act together in time, we have to get their act together for them.
PAR: And we are monitored as trustees - I should say, I’m also a trustee - by the - what would you call it - the parent trust in Leicester?
JG: Oh, yes.
PAR: They want to know –
JG: Oh yes, we have to report in. We have to report in. And they, they favoured um Christians, particularly the Church of England. We have loosened that to Christians, as against just Church of Eng’ - . But we have to report each year.
PAR: Yeah. And then they divvy up a certain amount of money and we don't really know -
JG: - quite how -
PAR: - quite how -
JG: - quite how it’s decided -
PAR: - quite how they do it. No. One year, some years ago, we actually - a little deputation from here –
JG: We went up to Leicester didn’t we, to report -
PAR: Just to see who these people are.
JG: Yes.
PAR: Whether they had real faces!
JG: And they could see us!
PAR: Yes. And whether it was by coincidence or not, after our visit, we got a big increase in our annual, annual -
JG: It was worth the visit.
TG: If it’s not a rude question, whereabouts in Leicester did you have to go?
PAR: Oh, gosh.
TG: I mean, there is an Alderman Newton?
PAR: Yeah, he’s the man.
JG: There’s the School.
TG: I know, he’s the man, yes.
JG: D’you know what. I don't remember!
PAR: No, I don’t remember, no.
TG: Some office somewhere, I suspect, yes.
PAR: Somewhere in the heart of Leicester.
TG: Intrigued.
JG: It might have been at the School?
PAR: Possibly. It was a proper grandish building.
JG: It was a grandish building wasn’t it? Yes, yes, yes.
PAR: And so, that’s just the tip of the iceberg, really, with the Newton Foundation. People locally refer older people to the ‘grass money’.
JG: The ‘grass money’. Yah. The grass money is - the grass was Hartham, the Meads. And it was left that the - the money that they sold the grass to - for - came as a charity, didn't it? Came to benefit.
PAR: Yes.
JG: Um - and it's a very small charity, now. In its day, it seemed to have a lot more money than we have now. We didn't squander it - us that owned- meant - trustees now. And I'm not quite sure how it didn't stay as big as it was.
PAR: No just probably invested not as -
JG: - not as - as well as it could have been.
PAR: - as well as perhaps the Newton.
JG: But it pays out once a year only. And the beneficiaries have to have - have to reside in the Borough of Hertford but not the Borough of today. It's the ancient Borough of Hertford, which is very small, actually. It centres into obviously the centre of Her’-
PAR: [indistinct] to a precise date and the Borough as it was in the time of Charles II.
JG: Yes, yes. And so, they have to apply. And in the old days, when there were a lot more residents in the old Borough of Hertford, older than there are now, we used to have them come to what was the old - it was the Castle Hall, wasn't it, they came to?
PAR: Yes, they used to – when I was first a trustee, it was a bit before you - they came to the Shire Hall.
JG: Ah, right.
PAR: There was a little office in the Shire Hall.
JG: Oh, yes, yes!
PAR: Then the Castle Hall was built and they-
JG: That's right.
PAR: - and they started to come there. And they had to present themselves one week to say ‘I’m still alive’, bring their pension book, give us - go through a means test basically.
JG: Yes, yes.
PAR: And then a fortnight later, come back -
JG: - to collect the set amount of money which was divided – it, was what - the income from the charity was then split to the number of applicants, once a year, to help them with their Christmas a bit, we hoped.
,
PAR: But circumstances have changed a lot just in our time and Folly Island for example, was a working-class community. It now is very much a yuppie territory and so the applicants aren’t there. The people who had worked and only have their old age pension and no other allowances - and these are few and far between because, if we're honest, our community, actually, is supported pretty well with benefits of one kind or another.
JG: Yes, very much so. And you know, they have to, it sounds awful, but they have to prove that they are needy. And, of course, not everybody that is needy wants to -
PAR: - say so.
JG: Say so. So, that's, that's, that's another problem.
PAR: Yes.
JG: Can I go back to where you started talking about the Shire Hall? My mayoralty was, in the Old - when I was made Mayor, it was in the Old Shire Hall, in the Old Courtroom. And it was so wonderful. And we had the reception upstairs in a very dilapidated ballroom. When the Shire Hall, I think it was 4 million pounds was spent on it.
PAR: Government money.
JG: Government money to restore it and it became a Magistrates Court. But they did-up the Ballroom and got rid of the Courtroom. And the mayoralty, we were never allowed to use the Courtroom. I tried to hire it. You know, to raise money. No, no, no, it was solely for the magistrates. That really annoyed me. Because it belonged, I felt, to the Town. My pride in Hertford was diminished. [laughs]
PAR: County Town, Shire Hall.
JG: Yes, yes, yes. But so, the mayoralty now is up at County Hall. Which is fine. But it's not the same as the Old Ballroom.
PAR: No, I mean, the office and the working stuff is in the Castle in the small [indistinct]. Yes, but mayor making yes in the, in the large Council Chamber at County Hall. Yes, which is their building, as it were. Shire Hall, Town Centre, felt very much more like our building.
JG: Yes.
PAR: And that [indistinct] I also was made Mayor in that Courtroom, It’s a very, very steep incline up for the public gallery. Yeah. So, if you're being made Mayor, you had to look up high ahead of you to see people packed into that –
JG: - And they were packed in!
PAR: Yes, every single nook and cranny. Yes. And Borough Council used to meet in that same room. I’ve had to sit in the public gallery, the top there, quite often, marking books, watching the old Borough operate, but by our time we were in the Castle. Small enough a Council then after the Borough had gone to fit in there - .
PAR: Good. So, are we there?
JG: What else is to share? My lovely family? My elder daughter who, the service bit came up, and she landed up being a town councillor. And she also did the mayoralty. And delight of delights, asked me to be her Mayoress. [laughs] So I had all the fun and no other responsibility other than to get the chain to the right place, because she was - she was still doing a very full-time job. And I can remember taking the chain to places and meeting her at a station. ‘Here’s the chain. Get it on!’
PAR: And you nursed me because I followed you as -
JG: Well. I was your Deputy Mayor.
PAR: You were my Deputy and -
JG: - and I was Deputy Mayor to Martin Weale, as well.
PAR: Yes, yeah. The Mayor can choose their own Deputy. And in Hertford that was the pattern. But you made sure I had the right colour serviettes – err - on the table.
JG: And I did your receptions, didn't I?
PAR: You did things when I was Chairman of the District, as well, in a personal way, and you stitched on those -
JG: Oh, correctly - the little, little eyes. Imagine a hook and an eye. A little eye on the top of the jackets for the mayoral chain to be slipped into so the mayoral chain, which is very heavy, did not become degraded, downgraded.
PAR: I’ve still got some jackets with your eyes – [JG laughs]
JG: Don’t know whether I’d still be able to do those now but I could still give it a whirl?
PAR: Yes, Chantal - and Helen is in the Town. She's - ?
JG: Helen had a business in the town in Bull Plain. Literally, almost next door to where Don was born. And we said how proud - we wish that Don's parents had seen that, you know, the Café and then Don being born there. Me, going there when Canvas Holidays opened. And Helen landing up with her Dive Shop there for ten, fifteen? -
PAR: Tell people what a Dive Shop is.
JG: Scuba diving, scuba diving, not, not diving in a swimming pool, but scuba diving. And err -
she taught me, when, when Don died, and the time was right, I was with her one evening up at Haileybury School. She used to use the pool on a Saturday evening to do some teaching. And she, I said, ‘Well, can I come and look’. She's - and there was a list on the on the table. And I said, well, ‘what's the list?’ She said, ‘well, it's for - to go scuba diving in Egypt. But if, if you want to come, you're gonna have to learn to dive first’. Ooh, OK, but actually, that was very good, because it was, mentally and physically, something that I hadn't done at all. And it was fairly soon after Don died. So, it fitted in very well. And I had two wonder’ – three, four - twice to Egypt and twice to the Maldives - diving.
PAR: So, she would take parties there, would she?
JG: Yes, yes, it was her business.
PAR: Yeah. So, the business was to teach -
JG: - teach, provide, and take on holidays.
PAR: Yes. I love that - Geall enterprise!
JG: Yes!
PAR: Yes, in a different way. And so, and, of course Chantal’s - both girls - went to Christ’s Hospital didn’t they, in the Town?
JG: They did. Yes.
PAR: Chantal’s French is superb, isn't it?
JG: Yes. And so is -
PAR: In her mayoral year, I remember, when we gave her freedom of the Borough or they - no - the Hertfordshire Regiment exercised its right -
JG: It did, yes -
PAR: - to march through the Town, I don’t know whether it was ‘fixed bayonets’ or not, but, some formality, through Fore Street, and there was a huge crowd packed in and adeus and Chantal in her mayoral year was able to speak in French. Why did she need to do that?
JG: Not on that occasion, presumably.
PAR: Am I muddling the occasions, am I? It was in Fore St.
JG: Oh! Was it?
PAR: Yes, it was and everyone said, well, a Hertford person talking like that.
JG: Well, because Chantal, when she did her university, did, what was then Middlesex Polytechnic, which is now University of Middlesex, Middlesex University, it is, isn't it?
Anyway, so she chose to do a business course. And it was two years in France, at Reims, all in French, everything. Eleven disciplines in French, all exams and everything. And then two years in England. She wanted to do two years in France and two years in Germany, but you had to do one - you had to do two years in your home city, hometown, country. But so, she chose to do it in French. So that was where the French came. Absolutely. And then she was an au pair in Germany on her year out. So, the German madly, greatly improved. So, yes, and that's brought great joy and much interest to all, to all our lives.
PAR: And enriched – in that she was able to bring to the mayoralty a -
JG: - a new swing.
PAR: - a number of gifts, but that was a particularly good one, as each Mayor successively, as Trish knows because she's done her – the Youth Council - with many of them, one by one, year by year. I mean, Brenda Haddock, for example, brought that wonderful gift of working a room. Brenda, like the Queen Mother, could work any room that she went into with her mayoral chain on and know, skilfully when to stop the conversation and move on, you know, without offending. That, that seemed to me a really warm, special gift that a Mayor can bring to the role. And others just love to stand up and open the Rock Festival with 2,000 people listening and others - we've got to do it but -
JG: - but that's, that's the joy of, I think, of the mayoralty in England whereas in France and Germany that we know that they do years and years and years - erm - but it's a very different sort of job anyway. But we, each mayor brings a different slant, ability and makes it interesting.
PAR: And their own past comes with them, whatever that may be, given the experiences and that, - they can use to convey and – I think that's a good place to finish.
JG: I’ve remembered the doctor's name that we've moved - Dr Evers [?]
TG: Well done! [general laughter]
PAR: He's going to be immortalised!
JG: And when we moved in, he lived here with his wife and his mother-in-law. He was 70 she was 73. No, he was 73, she was 70 and Mum was 96. And there was one power point in the whole house. And it wasn't in the kitchen. [JG laughs]
TG: You didn’t really need it in the kitchen in those days, you know.
JG: Well no. It was a range or whatever, wasn’t it, yes, yes.
PAR: Right! Press the button then, Trish!
TG: OK. Well, just to say thank you, Jill. And what an influence you have been to our Town! Are we glad to know you? I mean, wow!
End of recording