Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Elliott-Leith, June (O2004.13) |
| Interviewee | June Elliott-Leith (J E-L) |
| Interviewer | Peter Ruffles (PAR), Eddie Roche (ER) |
| Date | 07/11/2004 |
| Transcriber by | Mark Green (using Otter.Ai for initial transcript) |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording No: O2004.13
Interviewees: June Elliott-Leith (J E-L)
Date: 7th November 2004
Venue: Port Hill, Hertford
Interviewers: Peter Ruffles (PAR), Eddie Roche (ER)
Transcriber: Mark Green (using Otter.Ai for initial transcript)
Typed by: Mark Green
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
J E-L: Do you, but I don't suppose you remember, I remembered your face. And I lived on the Old Cross.
PAR: June let's say all we've just said again, because that's a good introduction. So I'll you'll say, see that picture on the wall?
J E-L: Right.
PAR: Go on, off you go.
J E-L: See that picture on the wall?
PAR: Yes.
J E-L: And that's a print of the original painting done by Joshua Gosling of the cottages 300 years ago, in 1737.
PAR: Ah...and Gosling was...
J E-L: In fact they had front gardens at the time.
PAR: Yes. So here we are. Opposite the Warren Gates on Port Hill. Number 61. And it's been the home, your home June, for?
J E-L: Seven and a half years.
PAR: And you came from Ware Road?
J E-L: I came from Ware Road but I lived on the Old Cross at number 25, for the first six years of my life.
PAR: It's your mum.
J E-L: My, my parents had Gunners the wholesalers and tobacconist on the Old Cross. My grandmother founded the sisterhood at the Baptist Church.
PAR: What was her name?
J E-L: Lucy Bowden. So that was my mother's maiden name.
PAR: Are they on the, is the Bowden name on one of those bricks?
J E-L: I can't remember Peter. Actually. I haven't had, I haven't had to look lately. My father was across there at St. Andrew's church. My mother went to the Baptist Church. I went to the Baptist Church. Um...I grew up in the Baptist Church. I belong to the Girls Life Brigade. Um...I went to Duncombe school when I was four. Um...and we had...um...Miss Lilly Taylor.
PAR: Yes, yes...former…
J E-L: Remember Lilly Taylor? She was the headmistress.
ER: So was it called Duncombe School in those days?
J E-L: Yes, and it was down on The Wash. It didn't move up to Bengeo....um...until I think it was about two years. It was down in The Wash to begin with.
PAR: So, 7th of November. We've been to church, June's been to church.
J E-L: Yeah.
PAR: Have you been Eddie?
ER: I've been.
PAR: Oh, Eddie's been. We're all very righteous.
J E-L: Which church do you go to Eddie?
ER: I go to the Catholic Church.
J E-L: You go to the Catholic Church?
ER: My wife's a Church reader there, and so we had to go this morning. It was a cold dank morning and we had a retiring collection and I stood outside in the porch way, it got very cold, I hope it was worth it. You've been Peter?
PAR: Yes.
ER: Did you go at 08:15 or...?
PAR: ...09:00...09:15 Yes, I've got there, sorted out the heating and times. quite warm wasn't this morning?
J E-L: Yes, it was...
PAR: ...trouble with the time switch. So to what… shall we trail through where you were born and where your, what the family connections were before that.
J E-L: I was actually. Oh, just another point. My mother was distantly related to Charles Wesley. And she was a cousin down the line from Charles Wesley.
PAR: So it got her into the Baptist Church with a fervour and the connection.
J E-L: Yes, yes. Gunners the wholesalers and tobacconist was 25 Old Cross. My father was the master farrier as well.
PAR: Right that spot when I needed to ask, so let, we, we got to tidy up a little bit on the order of things. Because your mother was Baptists, Charles Wesley was a Methodist, but it's the Free Free Church thing. And your father was at St. Andrew's?
J E-L: He was across there, at St Andrews
PAR: ...and that was between the wars?
J E-L: Um....Yes, it would be.
PAR: So let's go back to your beginning. Where were you born?
J E-L: I was born in Northamptonshire. I was adopted by Douglas and Marjorie Gunner, when I was six weeks old, in St. Andrew Street. Because the court was there at the time.
PAR: Oh, do you know?
J E-L: I think it was 7a St Andrew Street Oh yes, up the, well that would be near Turner's. Turner's is 3, um...5 was the Cranbourne Arms and there was Miss Hart then there's a yard with... Yes, ...7 and 9 front doors there Mrs. Baxter, the poultery was anyway that somewhere around there you think was the office that they... Yes, yes, I know it was in St Andrew Street because I did my tracing with NORCAP, the National Association for Adoptees and their Parents [NAAP]. [The NORCAP contact register has been managed by Family Action since April 2020].
ER: That took you back to there...
J E-L: Yes. And that took me back to there because if I need a birth certificate, I can't get one locally I have to send away for one.
PAR: And where you the only child?
J E-L: No, no, I had a brother, Keith. And he was himself adopted. He now lives in Lightwater in Surrey. Um...we used to play with David Rayment, Rayment. And we used to go over to Hartham And I remember the saw mill and the logs floating on the river.
PAR: So where were you living at the time of the adoption? In your very early...
J E-L: 25 Old Cross,
PAR: which is the one with the front door?
ER: The actual house is that?
J E-L: Yes. It was an actual house.
PAR: With a front door and a middle.
J E-L: Yes, with the shop underneath Yes. Yes. And later. There was Peggy Hardwick was living there. That must have been Peggy and Bill Hardwick moved in there. She was one of the Tomlin family. Oh, yes.
PAR: That must have been straight after your time. So yes, there was the front door onto the street, you have a main street door. And the shop was as you looked at the building from outside, the shop front was on the left or right of the Gunners ....on the right hand side. And what did Gunners sell wholesale?
J E-L: Wholesale tobacconist. They will, yeah, wholesalers tobacconists. Um...and as I say, my father was the master farrier and they used to have the shire horses there. And we used to go around the back entrance, you know, when we've been out playing because it was safe to go and play on Hartham then on your own, and my grandmother lived at 21 Old Cross. My mother was born...um...over 21. She was born at what is now 21b Old Cross. She was born in the flat above there, where I used to live. And of course, I brought my son home there, which is which happens to be, as I say, 34 years ago. I had thirty-four years ago today. I had him.
PAR: Jason.
J E-L: You remember Jason?
PAR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So on that row, there was the blacksmiths as...
J E-L: Dad
PAR: ...we call it but yes. And that was owned by you. Was it the actual?
J E-L: Yes,
PAR: Blacksmiths shop. And then Sadlers coal office was...
J E-L: Yes.
PAR: ...near by. And then you've got Miss Pharoah's tobacconists. Did you supply Miss Pharoah or did she have another wholesaler?
J E-L: Yes. No, I think we supplied Miss Pharoah. Auntie Phyllis, she died on my birthday. No, Auntie Clara died, you remember Auntie Clara. She died on my birthday. I mean, that's quite a few years ago because there was there were two sisters to Bowdens. One married a Gunner and one married a Pharaoh. One had my my aunt just had one child, a Robin. He now lives in Cornwall. And my mother adopted, he was adopted, and my mother adopted Keith my brother and myself, and we as I say lived at number 25. So your mother's maiden name was Bowden, Bowden.
PAR: and do Bowdens also have a newsagents? Were they at Farnhams before?
J E-L: Yes, yes. And if you look in the old book of Hertford, I mean, I think mine's upstairs somewhere. You'll see my grandfather standing outside the shop.
PAR: Farnham's shop?
J E-L: Outside Farnham's shop. And I do actually still own that property with my, with my brother and my [indistinct]
PAR: and that's 17, is it, no, yes. 17 Old Cross.
J E-L: No, that's 21 and 20.
PAR: Right. You don't own Farnhams, the newsagent?
J E-L: Yes, we own Farnhams.
PAR: That's number 17.
J E-L: Yes. That's Sorry. Yeah.
ER: So you own Farnham's. Do you own the one next to it? Yes. Which is now a [indistinct]
J E-L: Yes, yes.
ER: ...and the house next door as well. Where the hairdresser's is now?
PAR: No, that was Miss Pharoah's. That was Miss Pharoahs. But your family married, had a link with the Pharaohs.
J E-L: Yes, because Auntie Phyllis was my aunt. That was my mother's sister. She was my aunt.
PAR: She became Mrs. Pharaoh, but there was a Miss Pharoah there and an old brother, towards the end of the life of the shop.
J E-L: Yes, yes, there was. There was Bert and Clara. They both, they both went down to Cornwall to live with Auntie Phyllis. And they actually died down there in Cornwall.
PAR: They were pretty old, to make the move.
J E-L: Yes. I mean, Auntie Clara was actually 100 when she died,
PAR: Was she?
J E-L: Yes. And there was a picture of her in Mercury at the time.
PAR: Gosh, she did well, to up from the centre of things in the town.
J E-L: Well, she broke both of her hips. That's why she went down to Cornwall. And it was Dr. Bench that came out, apparently. And he carried her upstairs. And then Auntie Phyllis was called. And then when her hips were better, they took her down to Cornwall, to look after her.
PAR: So that has was the centre of your world, really, that row of shops? Living at it and being in the centre of things and you owned Farnham's as well. So you had an interest in that business where David Rayment was.
J E-L: Yes. And I've known David since I was four.
PAR: Who used to come to the farriers? Where did the customers come from? To, to go into the blacksmith shop?
J E-L: I think it was mostly from McMullens because there was Shire horses. And as a child, you know, I wasn't supposed to use the back entrance, but I did. But I was always warned, you know, please, you know, be careful that you don't actually get kicked. Because you know, they are, they do kick out.
PAR: Would you have to go through the shop through the [indistinct]?
J E-L: Yes, I used to go under the um, under the arch around the back. And they used to when I when I was a baby. I used to sit in that in my pram. I used to sit out there. My pram. I've actually I can't find it at the moment because when I had the property damage, I've actually got a video of me. I've had it turned into a video of me sitting in the pram. Oh. Now it was called A F Gunner. Yes.
PAR: When was the business? The Guns any idea? Who started it and where it started?
J E-L: Well as far as I know. There was there was a business there when I was adopted. That was in 1945. The business, now wait a minute, my mother, my mother would be 97 if she was still alive. 97 on the first of December. And the business, she was born, '06. The business was already started then '06’d already started then. But my mother didn't move down to '06. She was actually my my… the Bowdens moved down. And my mother was born there in 1906. They came from Castle Clune they move down from Castle Clune the parents.
PAR: So when, when did the Gunner name come into?
J E-L: I don't mean, to be honest I don't really know as I say there were two...um...two sisters and one married to Gunner and one married to Pharoah. You know they grew up together. Auntie Phyllis was a nurse at the baby castle in Hastings. [This is probably a reference to Dr Barnado's Baby Castle at Hawkhurst, approximately 15 miles from Hastings]. Um... I can't remember. I mean, I can't remember all the dates, that's the trouble More interested in the feel of it than the... And so your father was at St. Andrew's church. Yeah. All the time that you and before you?
ER: All the time you did, before.
J E-L: Yes.
PAR: Yeah, yeah, and what of his history in Hertford been.
J E-L: He was one of I think about... He'd lived in Hertford longer than my mother, he was one of about five children. He went into the family business, when his mother, when his parents died, he took over the family business. And then of course, after he died in 1958, Uncle Frank, Frank Crawley took over the business. And he lived at Hertingfordbury.
PAR: Was he a real uncle, or did you call him uncle?
J E-L: Um...he was he was actually… he was actually my cousin, but because I was so much younger, I had to call him uncle. He had three children. Prue, Sue and Paul, unfortunately Paul died, at Hertingfordbury. Sue and Pru I haven't been in contact but I'm told that they are actually still living around this area.
PAR: Yes, Sue lives in Hertingfordbury still.
J E-L: Oh, does she? I'd actually like to meet her because I can remember going to her birthday party when I was a child, and Pru used to sleep with her eyes open and when my grandmother died, I was eight, and we went to stay in Hertingfordbury. I think it was number eight St Mary's Lane if I remember correctly. And I got a little bit frightened because she used to sleep with her eyes open and it was a little bit frightening when you were only an eight year old.
PAR: I think there's probably...11 St Mary's Lane, on the left hand side.
ER: Crawley was a blood relation to the Gunners.
J E-L: Yes. Yes.
ER: Cousins [indistinct] it was that much. But you said that your father, Mr. Gunner, he went into the family business. So there was a that was Gunners and the tobacconist and newsagents, that was...
J E-L: It wasn't a newsagent. It was a wholesalers.
ER: Sorry, a wholesealer, yes. So there was an already established family business he went into it, I assume from when he left school?
J E-L: Yes, yes.
ER: When he was about 15 or 16. So there must have been a business well established then a long while
J E-L: before my mother actually married. Yes. I mean, I did go to the Museum on Friday, and I was quite disappointed and they've taken my number and everything...um...because they were actually doing businesses. And Gunners wasn't actually there.
PAR: We should have done this recording before, then you would have been.
J E-L: Yes. yes.
PAR: It's just what they got.
ER: They use what they've got. Yeah. I said I'd give them some information but never got round to it. But Gunners was a long established, well run business. So, father was at St Andrews, mother was a Baptist.
J E-L: A Baptist. They married at the Baptist Tabernacle Church.
PAR: At the bottom here, Port Hill.
J E-L: No, the one...um...
PAR: The Ebenezer?
J E-L: The Ebenezer.
ER: Oh the strict...
J E-L: Yes, the strict one.
ER: Where they have just knocked down the Chapel and put the flats. That was the the strict Ebenezer Chapel which was at the point of the junction of Hertingfordbury Road and St Andrews. And North Road, I beg your pardon.
J E-L: Yes, North Road. Yeah, that's where they actually married. I didn't actually I didn't find that out until my mother died because she just said that she got married in the Baptist church, but I didn't realise it was a strict one.
PAR: Did they assu...get their prosperity as it were simply through trading and buying up property? I mean, was it?
J E-L: Yes,
PAR: It was just hard work. They didn't win a lottery.
J E-L: Oh no, no, no.
PAR: Or have inherited from Victorian times. That was, who the rivals in the town, presumably Gunners supplied tobacco to lots of local shops as well as further afield. They were, was Miss Law on Old Cross, a rival in your day, used to say wholesale tobacconist and her shop.
J E-L: I don't, Peter I don't really remember.
PAR: No, I can't, I mean I ought to know as well as you as we're the same age and working, when I was working [indistinct].
J E-L: I'm younger than you, Peter. What are you, 60?
PAR: [6]2.
J E-L: 62. Well, I'm only 59.
PAR: So, I should remember about the Gunners. We used to get Farmers and all that wholesale tobacconist there. We just have to go out for supplies and cart them up the road great piles of fags. But that was more in Mr. Crawley’s day and, and the lady who lives at Sele Farm worked in there, she's still there, lives in a, I've forgotten, very good allotment of what's her name, there was a good crowd working in there, weren't there. Molly Lawson was,
J E-L: yes, there was...um…
PAR: Norma Close that I'm thinking of for them.
J E-L: Yeah, there was Lily Carroll, who lived in Molewood Road. And she went to she was a friend of my mother's. She went to the Methodist Church, I think it was she used to come to you know, come down and see us. She was always a Miss. I don't know if you remember Carrolls?
PAR: Yes, yes I do,
J E-L: And then my mother was also friends with Tom and Kath Blake. He was an accountant. They moved down to Torquay, but they actually live next door to the Blands at one time in Fanshawe Street. In Fanshawe Street.
PAR: Yes, we used to have to send them a rolled-up copy of the Mercury from the shop every Friday you roll out brown paper bag and as a wrapper and posted off after they had gone. Several customers moved away and wanted...Kingsteignton, was it Kingsteignton?
ER: Wanted to be kept up to date with what was going on.
J E-L: They didn't, no, they moved to Torquay.
PAR: They were Torquay, were they? There was another one for Kingsteignton.
J E-L: We went down to see them, we went down to stay for a week in Torquay when I was 22. So when you are roaming the streets as it were and getting the freedom to go across to Hartham and safe, and where did you see things and pick up bits, then you can still recall, I mean, how far would you stray along the Meads, for example, would you go down... No, we used to go down as far as they canal and that's where that's where the saw mill was, and you used to watch the logs floating along the river. And lots of people actually don't remember that.
PAR: No. So, tell us how what happened, where did the logs come from?
J E-L: They came from Dicker Mill, from the saw mill, and they used to float along the river. I don't know where these float too, I mean I was on these five at the time, so it's difficult to to actually remember that.
PAR: Would they have been picked up by barges after that?
J E-L: Probably, because Old Cross itself used to be a coach house. Hence you've got the arch by the interior design. And apparently, the boats used to come up the river to the Castle grounds, and then they used to unload and also the horses and carts used to come to Hertford, and they used to go, because that was barns behind the back of there, there were barns. When I first moved to Hertford it was still a barn. And they used to go and they used to stable behind there. And that is that is 400 years old. But it was actually a coaching house. And if you took all the partitions down from the attics, you can walk from what is Moosh right the way round to Wiggingtons, you could walk right the way through the top layer.
PAR: Because there's a very thin partition between Farnhams now and next door, just a wooden frame almost Yes, yeah. Pannelled frame. Oh, so you've got a journey through the rooftops?
J E-L: Yes. As a child I mean my grandmother lived, where Moosh is, that was her lounge and as a child we used to go up in the attics and there were various things under cloths. You know, and when my when my grandmother died, there was this lovely bust of a very, oh, it's a statue actually, I couldn't remember it very well it was black. And I was only eight. And my mother was selling some of my, my grandmother's things. And they came around, and of course I got into trouble because they asked how much you wanted, wanted for it, and I said 50 shillings. And of course it was worth a lot more than that.
And incidentally, out of interest my mother actually bred and showed budgerigars at Earls Court. And she used to have the budgerigars in the shop, so that when customers came in, they used to be in the show cages. When customers came in the birds would learn to sit still. So they they wouldn't actually panic, and I think, I can't remember, no I haven't got them in there, I think I have got them in the top of that, she's actually got medals for that I've still got the medals.
PAR: So, when were they all bred on Old Cross or…
J E-L: Yes, she had two aviaries down there. She had two avairies.
ER: That was at the back of the buildings. Quite a bit of ground there, isn't there?
J E-L: Yes, yes.
PAR: When earlier you said your mother lived up here, was that the end of her life that she was living this way?
J E-L: Um she moved down when Jason was two, she moved down 32 years ago. In the April she moved down at Easter and she moved to number 67, I found it for her. And then in 1992 I noticed that she was getting quite nervous. So I said to her, I was still living on the Old Cross at 21b Old Cross. And I said, well, you know, would you like to come and live with me? So we moved to 23 Ware Road. And she died, the 1st December 1994 at 23 Ware Road, she died at home with me.
PAR: Tell us about a curiosity of a house a normal Victorian or Edwardian brick built one called 19a where Mr and Mrs Wilson lived.
J E-L: Yes, I knew Mr and Mrs Wilson.
PAR: Was that privately, separately owned, it wasn't part of your...
J E-L: It was, we actually own that.
PAR: Do you still or is that? Which they bought for about 500 pounds.
J E-L: No, it's been sold off, now. Mr. Wilson was a tailor. And before Mr and Mrs. Wilson lived there, Mr. Farnham lived there. And David, Joe and Jill. Before they went up to North Road Avenue. Yes, yes.
ER: So, that was young Bob Farnham. Youngest Farnham.
J E-L: Yes. Yes.
PAR: That used to be the first delivery in the morning on one of the rounds of course around the back. Express [The Daily Express] to Mr and Mrs Wilson in those days. But by that time,
J E-L: And then I had my paper because I was at 21b,
ER: Was it delivered, was it? Or did you...
J E-L: It was delivered.
PAR: She paid the delivery charge, every Saturday morning. [Laughter] What about the Ship, Pub? Did you ever go in the Ship?
J E-L: Yes, I did go in the Ship pub. I can't remember the name of the people, though.
PAR: Harold and Dotty Hunt?
J E-L: That's it. That's it.
PAR: But you weren't a regular in there?
J E-L: No, no, because I had Jason he was a baby. The friends of mine came down. Perhaps my friend Pam used to come down from Luton and her husband would babysit and we'd go down there for a drink.
PAR: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You went in the left hand side, I expect, [indistinct] And then there was what else you got Miss Chapman, the dressmakers that may have been a bit early for you.
J E-L: No, I think that's a bit early for me
PAR: because she was just winding.., or the two Miss Chapman's were winding down I suppose at that time, then there was a Co-op. Eddie Palmer [Dog yapping in the background makes it difficult to follow the next exchange]
ER: Palmer, was a cake shop? Briden's was opposite wasn't, where the wine shop is now, where McMullens…
J E-L: Yes, and I knew Mick Suckling.
ER: I don't think there were many people who didn't know Mick.
PAR: Was he not your favourite man? Oh, didn't pinch your bottom did he, when you went in there?
J E-L: No, he tried [laughter] are you recording this? Thank you.
ER: So you don't remember Palmers, then, the cake shop?
J E-L: No I don't remember Palmers cake shop
PAR: and then the Co-op?
ER: And then the Co-op chemists was there.
PAR: The butchers.
J E-L: Yes, I remember those. And I remember Dance the chemist. Because when I came back again to Hertford, I mean I used to take Jason in there when he was a baby. And he used to get my prescriptions from there because the H..
ER: I suppose we're talking about a period of time now in the in the in the '60s aren't we, '70s and Jason was a little lad. So some of the shops that Peter and I remember had already disappeared.
PAR: The grocers on the corner, the other side.
ER: Bryant's, a good food shop.
J E-L: But no. I mean, I knew Mr. Neale because obviously underneath that when I first… in 1971, that was um Neales, the antique shop.
PAR: And you moved from there. That was, you were selling tobacco in there, and then Neale's came
J E-L: And then Neale's came, yes. And the tobacconist moved. The wholesale shop moved round the corner towards...[people taking over each other]
ER: Towards where Barratts was. So that was Dick Neale who had the car, the car business wasn't it?
J E-L: Yes. I mean, his wife is still alive and there's two daughters, and there's grandchildren. There's June and I know the other one lives at the Wick. I don't know whether it's Jenny her name. I can't remember her name. But she lives up at the Wick. But I can remember one night I was bathing Jason and he was only a toddler and of course the property actually hadn't been refurbished. And all the antiques were downstairs, and I quickly went to just get his pyjamas I'd forgotten his pyjamas, and when I came back, he's got this bucket and he was he was taking the water out the bath and putting it on the floor and it all went down into the antique shop.
PAR: One of those moments… and quite a few years later and you still, still remember it.
J E-L: Oh, yeah. Well, I do have a good memory.
PAR: So what about whole town things with the Gunners, were they, they didn't played bowls or?
J E-L: No, my father, my father was a Freemason at the Lodge at Hatfield. And he was also a Councillor.
PAR: Yes. What did, was that? Bengeo?
J E-L: I think it was in Bengeo.
ER: Can you remember what time that would have been when he was on the Council?
PAR: Is it in your, in your time on…?
J E-L: Yes, when I was he would have been on the Council when I was six. So that would have been 53 years ago.
PAR: A lot of the Councillors seemed to play bowls in the old days. I don't know about Masonic links.
ER: So that was his. That was his interest in was being in the Freemasons. And I've been on the Council, which takes up and awful lot of time. So I didn't have a lot of time for any other. So his interest except running his business and bringing up his family I would imagine.
J E-L: Well, he I think he worked long hours in the business. You know, we didn't actually see a lot of him when we were children. I remember the car was the Humber car.
ER: Did you ever go on holidays?
J E-L: Yes, we used, he had property in Cornwall. He had a hotel called Porthvean which is still there in St. Agnes. And he had Goveans [?], which was a hotel, a market garden in those days. It's not now because after my mother died, I did actually phone to Cornwall and spoke to them at the Porthvean Hotel and apparently that's a private house now. But we used to go down to St. Agnes and because Auntie Phyllis was living down there. We used to go down for the whole six weeks of summer holidays. We used to spend down there. And of course, my father then saw to his business interests down there.
ER: So he stayed with you. The whole period of time down there?
J E-L: Yes, yes.
ER: So he was a man of many parts really wasn't he, because business interests in Hertford is tobacconist wholesale business and all the bits and pieces that went with it and whose property they got keep an eye on. And he also had his business interest in Cornwall, which was quite a long way away. Do you know how he came to get into business in Cornwall? Was it because he liked Cornwall?
J E-L: Because he liked Cornwall. Because he.....
ER: He was quite an astute man, I would imagine.
J E-L: Yes, yes. I mean, his estate was worth 32,000 pounds when he died in 1958. Obviously, at today's prices, that doesn't seem a lot, but it was in those days.
ER: Yes, yes. Yes, because I can relate to how much my father paid when he bought the properties in St Andews Street.
J E-L: And he actually died in Cornwall. He actually died in St Agnes and he actually died on Christmas Day, at seven o'clock in the evening,
PAR: Suddenly, or had he been ill?
J E-L: He, I think they phoned for the doctor about seven o'clock in the morning, so my mother told me, and the doctor didn't come out, and by seven o'clock in the evening he had died. I think it was cirrhosis. Because he did use his drink quite heavily, he liked gin. And he did use to drink quite heavily and the rest of the family didn't take after him. I mean, I'm teetotal anyway. My mother died 1994, at 23 Ware Road.
ER: So she survived him quite a long while, somewhere in the region of 40 years. So, he was relatively young when he died.
J E-L: Yes, he was only 52 when he died. There was a saying no true Gunner ever lives to a ripe age. That was saying in the family. And that certainly applied, you see Frank Crawley was actually a Gunner because he was blood related. Well he was 65 when he died, he just retired. The only person that did live because there was I think three brothers and one sister, one died of TB. One was killed in the war. The only person that lived to a ripe old age was what they used to call Ma Gunner [?] Well, of course I never met her. I was too young. She actually died before, just before I was adopted into the family.
PAR: But you're all right, because you haven't got the genes.
J E-L: No, I've got Scottish and American genes. Well, I don't, I don't know. My mother, my birth mother died of a myocardial infarction, which is a heart attack and bronchial pneumonia. And my father died in Indianapolis of a myocardial infarction, which is a heart attack.
ER: So you can live to be a ripe old age.
PAR: So, not too many fags then, June.
J E-L: One was 69, one was 69,
ER: So you got to keep, keep an eye on the old ticker there, haven't you?
J E-L: My hearts alright apparently, so the doctor tells me.
PAR: What about this row of cottages. Did you have a, with your mother connected? She was there first before she came to Ware Road with you. Did you have a special interest in this row of cottages early in life? Or did you just come to land here by chance?
J E-L: No. What happened was my mother, when my brother got married, my mother, I was already living in Hertford and my mother wanted to be near me because we'd always been close. And I was going to get 21b Old Cross. So I looked round and the only cottage that was available for her because she was living in Surrey at the time, we moved to Surrey for a little while. And the only cottages available was available was number 67. So she moved down here to be near me, just by by chance. Now her friend. She was friendly with the lady that used to live here, Miss David. She lived here for a lot of years. And we used to Jason, Mum and I used to come down here and have afternoon tea. And then when Mum died, I mean, I was looking for another property and this property came up. I mean, this is 300 years old.
PAR: They were really thoroughly done up all of them together, weren't they some years ago...
J E-L: They were done up in 1960 in the 60s, but the year last February, the builders moved into the next door property, that side and they took this load bearing wall down. They cracked all my ceiling. I was here with the dogs and you can see the mark, because it's cracked, a drill came through the wall eight inches from my head, so I had to move out for six and a half weeks and I stayed in the Roebuck Hotel with the dogs in Ware, while all my property was refurbished. Hence I have got the wooden beams, the original wooden beams, none of them are false because this property is 300 years old. And I'm the only, oh no the, the top one where they did the extension and they've got their beams showing.
ER: I think my brother lived in that one for a....he discovered that there was land next to the cottage that belonged, that went with the, by the side, by the side of...
PAR: …higher up. 57 comes
ER: some of it was his… [indistinct]
J E-L: Yeah. I remember, if you remember the...um...there's a house over there. You just see the top of it. That was Bert the butcher. Yes, yes. That was Bert the butcher.
PAR: Number 40.
J E-L: Yes, and he was still here when my mother was living here.
PAR: And his wife was a Cub Mistress. It's a lovely spot to be living, isn't it? When you get home from work and stub your fag out,,,
ER: shut yourself, shut yourself in from the outside world just nice and cosy.
J E-L: What I find quite difficult is the other week I was coming home from a late shift. And I was coming up the hill and somebody tooted me, and it was Peter Ruffles, but he didn't offer me a lift up to my home.
ER: Never been known to.
PAR: Only another six steps and you still had your fag on anyway. I didn't want to spoil that. [Laughter] So, currently your friends I knew are working, there's not much time but the churches and June Bladding [?] and Marge, are they on your circuit?
J E-L: Yes. I do Meals on Wheels. I do Mother and Toddler Club at St. Andrew's Church with Jane Chaplin. I went to the concert of the Philharmonic I went with Stella last time.
PAR: Yes, I didn't see you there.
J E-L: Where you there? Oh, I didn't see you. It was… it was, it was lovely. Absolutely lovely. And I'm going down to the Friends Meeting House this afternoon at three o'clock for some more music and then I'm going to informal worship tonight at 6:30.
PAR: Well, that has been valuable.
ER: Depends how you fit all these things in really. So how did you know June and Marge? They were at St Andrew's School in my time.
J E-L: I met Marge when Jason was bus driver, I met her on the bus when he was a bus driver. We've been friends, oh about 10 years now.
PAR: Yes, I know. She always talks about you and has been encouraging us to come, to come to put you in the museum like she is.
J E-L: Yes. Yeah, yes we play Scrabble together. I was up there on Thursday playing Scrabble.
ER: Is that a Scrabble club, or were you just playing?
J E-L: No, just Marge and I, just Marge and I played together.
ER: I may have one in a minute because they make my throat sore.
[end of tape 1]
ER: Rates. The price of the fags per month paid the rates.
PAR: Oh did it?
ER: You got to wear all that lot, Peter?
PAR: I didn't last night, I had just the badge. Yeah, let's keep it rolling. And then we can always I mean, the useful bits.
J E-L: Are we still recording? So when did you become a Freemason, Peter?
PAR: When I was, oh, nearly 40 years, so when I started teaching. I have got a kink in this. Yeah. Oh well, lets give it a go. Now if you could, how did you get on with those forms, June?
J E-L: Yes, I filled forms in Peter. But as I say, I couldn't actually put the dates attended.
PAR: Oh, Duncombe school. We want to talk about that June while we're at it. Why did they go? Choose Duncombe?
J E-L: Because they wanted to have me privately educated. They had the money. And they wanted both of us privately educated. I was going to go to Queenswood School, and my brother was going to go up to Haileybury. But of course there was… my parents did actually divorce. And that's why my father didn't become mayor, because of the divorce. Oh, really. They wouldn't, in those days, they wouldn't have a divorced person as mayor.
PAR: Oh really? Was, oh, it wasn't his wish that, you know, he really needed someone to back him up with it. It was the system really didn't.
ER: allow it.
J E-L: No, it didn't allow it in those days.
PAR: Would you have blamed his civic life and that sort of thing as part of the reason for them parting? Was it because of pressure? Not really?
J E-L: No, no, no, he did actually remarry. He did actually have some, a friend, that he was quite friendly with. She had a son. And he remarried, a lady who was actually the same age as my mother and the same birthday as my mother. And they went down to...um...they went down to live in Cornwall, and to run the Porthvean Hotel down in Cornwall.
PAR: But at the time that he might have become mayor, he...
J E-L: the divorce went through so he was he wasn't allowed, wasn't allowed to become mayor.
PAR: Yeah. Yeah. Times change, don't they?
J E-L: Yes.
PAR: But the school was a happy place. Was it? Were you up at the top here? Or was it always for you?
J E-L: The first I think the first two years I was down on The Wash and then I was up at the top here. Because it was a very, very small school when that started. So very small.
PAR: Whereabouts on The Wash?
J E-L: I'm not quite sure Peter.
PAR: No, we can look those things up. Just one, you know.
J E-L: But I know it did actually start on The Wash. And it was a very, you know, just a handful of pupils. And then they bought the property up there. Well, of course, they extended when I was there, and they've extended since I've come back to Hertford.
PAR: Yes. Really, very good business, I suppose you'd call it, wouldn't you with a private school.
J E-L: It's got a very, very good reputation. But people sort of, you know, friends of mine when I sort of locally, it was like Marge said to me, we went there to the the open day. And I said, oh, I went to school there. Oh, you went to that posh school? And I said, well, you know, my parents had money and they wanted me to be privately educated.
ER: Often one, my.. all my brothers and sisters were privately educated. I didn't. I went to the same school as Peter. And I often wonder who came out of it, the better. My wife, she went to a private school. My mother worked and worked and worked so that she would go to a private school, but I still think she would have been better off if she had gone to an ordinary school and got a scholarship to Ware Grammar School. I think they had a better education.
J E-L: Well my mother went to Ware Grammar School. My mother went to Ware Grammar School, and I don't think she that she wasn't privately educated...
ER: See, because Hertford Grammar School used to be a private school, up until the 40s. I think it was with the Education Act wasn't it Peter?
PAR: Erm...yes. Probably yes, that's right, yes. 44.
ER: But there were always scholarship boys. Had to be pretty bright.
J E-L: That's actually led me on to something else because my mother used to work at Welwyn Stores. And she used to cycle over there. And she used to get 50 shillings a week. Used to cycle over there from Hertford.
ER: So she used to cycle, she worked as well. Was it because of that...
J E-L: No, this was before she was married. Before she was married. She worked at Welwyn Stores.
ER: Because that was quite a place to work, wasn't it?
J E-L: Yes, and she used to cycle over there. And we've all been great cyclists in our family. I mean, I've got a bike out the back. And we've always loved dogs. I mean, I bought three Yorkshire Terriers out there. And my mother had an alsatian, a corgi, a wire-haired fox terrier, we always had animals around us.
ER: She had quite an assortment, didn't she. An Alsatian, a corgi and a wire-haired fox terrier. Really good assortment. I think dogs particularly make for good companions.
J E-L: Have you got a dog?
ER: We used to have a dog. But when we had her put down they decided that they didn't. Another one wouldn't be the same. Several times since we've thought about having another dog and now, they're very restrictive dogs. Someone's got to get up in the morning. Or if you want to go away,
J E-L: Hartham's across the road from me, I'm lucky. And you see my yorkshire terrier ornaments over there? They are everywhere. Also those...um...those...um... sketches there? My mother did those. Yes, she did those,
ER: Are they of anywhere in particular, are they?
J E-L: Um, no.
ER: All from her imagination.
J E-L: From her imagination, and apparently if there are, if there aren't people in a sketch, it is supposed to be spiritual. Also, I've got some more upstairs, but this embroidery she did, those two embroideries she did.
ER: So she was quite a talented lady, wasn't she?
J E-L: I did that embroidery and that embroidery.
ER: Oh, so you like parrots, birds as well as...
J E-L: I like birds, I like [indistinct] scenes.
PAR: June, I'm going up to the Mayflower.
J E-L: Right,
PAR: Fast. Thank you very much, indeed.
J E-L: You're welcome.
PAR: We've covered the ground…[undecipherable]
ER: Not for a bit. Yeah. So many things to think this way.
J E-L: Now, do I actually get to hear this recording?
PAR: You could...um...don't normally because they just go in the...what we will do, someone will type it out one day, but that might be years up the line. And if they're ever doing, like shopping thing at the moment, and it'll be indexed and someone will say oh, I mentioned Gunner's on there, let's listen to that tape. So it's a resource for people. If they're talking about Borough Council, they might say oh, well the Councillor Gunner, not made the mayor because the divorce intervened, a typical thing.
ER: but its all confidential, it can all be kept very confidential.
PAR: But if you've signed to say, you know, you're happy, they'll just plunder it, and we haven't said anything dodgy about anything...
J E-L: Well, you know this to me, you know what I mean, they are both, they are both gone. You know what I mean?
PAR: Oh, yes. We haven't said anything unkind or unfair. It's not private stuff it's it, it shows how things have been.
ER: It's how things were and how they are now...
PAR: That particular little example [indistinct]. But there isn't a listening, we are working on getting a listening post...
ER: So that people can go in and hear a tape if they want to.
PAR: But if you want a copy of it we'll do...
J E-L: Yes, I wouldn't mind a copy of. That'd be quite interesting.
PAR: Yeah, yeah, for a laugh. We didn't mention ankles too much did we?
J E-L: Well, Peter, it's you that got me a fetish for ankles, they're covered up, you know, by trousers.
PAR: I'll tell you what Eddie, what I would like if you wouldn't mind is you and June together on the doorstep.
ER: Have you turned this off now, Peter?
PAR: No, just if you unplug it it'll do it's, it will have done the job and then I'll listen to it as I speed up the road to Hertingfordbury.
[End of recording]