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Transcript Title	Porrer, Andrew (O2022.3)
Interviewee	Andrew Porrer (AP)
Interviewer	Peter Ruffles (PAR), Frances Green (FGG)
Date	01/07/2022
Transcriber by	Freda Joshua (using Otter.Ai for initial transcript)

Transcript

Hertford Oral History Group

Recording No: O2022.3

Interviewee: Andrew Porrer (AP)

Interviewers: Peter Ruffles (PAR), Frances Green (FGG)

Date: 1 July 2022

Venue: Hertingfordbury Road, Hertford

Transcriber: Freda Joshua (using Otter.Ai for initial transcript)

Typed by: Freda Joshua

************** unclear recording

[discussion]. untranscribed material

italics editor’s notes

PAR: This is Peter Ruffles at home, being entertained by Frances in my own home as usual with a few anecdotes. And Andrew Porrer is here, Councillor Andrew Porrer, and he is a Lib Dem member of Hertford Town Council and we've been colleagues for three years. And so, as part of our little series, having already spoken to Josh Dean, we're going to chat to Andrew this morning about his view really of party politics in Hertford, I suppose, essentially. But, Andrew, could you tell us a little bit about how you came to be in Hertford, biographically?

AP: Yes. Well, I don't know how detailed you want me to go? How far back? But, but Ok, so I was at the University of York. And I did maths there then … in Germany as part of Erasmus and, then I did a computing MSC, which was less useful that it sounded, but it got me the qualification that I needed to go to what I wanted to do which was be in computing. And yeah, basically got two job offers one in Hoddesdon and one in Edinburgh, where I lived at the time, where my parents lived. And the Hoddesdon one paid a bit more, so I just went there. That simple! And so I then lived in Hoddesdon in a flat for a few years working there and then I moved to Hertford in, I was working this out before I came, it was in 2004. Got married in 2005, and then had a couple of kids later on. So now we've got George,11 and Alice, 7. Moved around a few times, basically, every time my child was coming, we moved. So, um, I used to live next to Frances.

FGG: Indeed. Very good neighbour.

PAR: So let's get the geography in Hertford?

AP: So I start with our first house which was in Byde Street, but as estate agents would call it, on the slopes of lower Bengeo. And there was an old Post Office and we had the sort of, it was not a flat but it was more than a flat, it had an upstairs and a downstairs, number 10. We had the ground floor and the basement, and that was the old Post Office. Had little postbox outside still which was in use. And then when the first child was coming we moved to Waterdale, which is the old tannery, glove factory down from County Hall. And, and then when the second child was on the way, we moved up to the Foxholes estate which is on the hill, as they say, near McDonald's, but it will mean nothing in the future, I suppose.

PAR: But it'll get them researching.

AP: Exactly, yes. On the big roundabout there. Yes.

PAR: So consider politics in our town at the moment, we, I suppose we could say, we've got a party politically diverse Council, haven't we. We have small majority for the Conservatives?

AP: Yes.

PAR: And then Greens and Labour, and Lib Dem.

AP: Yes.

PAR: I mean, how do you think that working in this current four year term, of which we’re three years in?

AP: Well, I mean, I said due to the nature of the work of the town council, it's not like higher councils, I would assume, you know more than me. So it is more collaborative generally. However, I would say when previously, correct if I'm wrong, previously, was it all Conservatives?

PAR: There has also been more Labour.

AP: More Labour, more Labour at one point, I remember that. But, and now, it is currently nine seven as in nine Conservative, seven non-Conservative, but I don't think you would know, from the outward functioning of the council, in terms of, you know, Mayor, Deputy Mayor, Chairs, the appointments to bodies and things. One thing I found certain, and I think one thing I found, when I joined, was that again, this is part of, there's a learning process anyway, existing processes, what have you, but a lot of things that went on, that were just presented as a fait accompli and no idea where they came from.

And… but many of the opposition have spent many many times trying to find out how we have input into these various things that magically appear and officers are not always helpful or responsive in my experience. So we had this thing recently with, again, it's kind of spilled beer in a way, but it's been spilled. So you know, the appointments to outside bodies recently that just appeared on the, on the agenda for the Mayor Making, there's a big ceremonial thing we'll put our robes on. I liken people to pirates, but that's probably not …. and, and we do the thing, and it's quite regimented. But it's this, these things just appeared and like, where, where did these names come from? How do we know and eventually, this time around, did you notice, there was a slight disruption in the ceremony? Because they, they called a vote on a few of the places, a few of the nominations because the officers have actually conceded that possibly we could nominate other people. So ….

PAR: Yes, no, we've hung on to that thing that power means power. And traditionally, that's what's happened always. It happened when Labour, though, it wasn't 100% Labour, the council, there was a Liberal, and Labour made a Liberal, LibDem, the Mayor in their terms of office, [xxx] and I think one other Liberal and then I was there as a Tory, but always it's been the majority takes all, as it were, and that sharing of responsibility doesn't come in at certain points. But in the general debates, people are listened to and, well, if I can say it without flattering you and respected greatly, because your contribution as an individual is one that people often comment about being sensible, conservative, but you wouldn't be speaking as a Conservative, but they, they buy into that and just, you know, welcome that. So the personal stuff’s there, but the system …

AP: Yes, and that's, as I said, the nitty gritty of the actual, you know, committee work is there, and, as you say, we all listen to the debate, and that's, that's all good. Yes, it's just the wider …. and again, I mean, I think this is, yes, this happens up and down the country, but I think Hertford is, it is not the usual format for, that's not how it works in other in other town and parish councils, they rotate mayors that goes between the parties, and it's a lot more mixed.

PAR: Yes, I think that's true, yes. So what would you do after the next election when you're in the majority yourself? What, what reforms? Would you …

AP: Well, if I was in the majority, which, assuming it's a coalition of some description of, no offence, non-Conservative parties, and I, I would try and, you know, divvy things up proportionately as best possible including with the Conservatives. That's my instinct, always.

PAR: Proportional representation is a big thing for your party.

AP: Yes.

PAR: I suppose before we talk about that and, you know, what it would do in terms of what kind of result would it produce for Hertford as we know it, can we just talk about your assessment of the electorate? Because the people do vary to some extent in Lowestoft from Penzance and Hertford and how do you see the Hertford, I'm going to say voting public, because only a small proportion turn up to vote for local government elections, and those who do, deliver the council that we have now. Could you talk about how you see the community of Hertford, and possibly your ward?

AP: Well, I think, as you say, the turnout for local elections is very low, and it's, in a way it's kind of people who according to the tradition of it, which obviously, in this area have been it goes a certain way. I don't think party politics per se, kind of affects the community in that sense. I don't think people think of themselves that way, and I think we do. And this is the thing I was, as I get older, maybe slightly more mature, I do realise that most people don't think about politics at all. And that's not a criticism because they're busy doing things. I mean, in the notes you sent over to me before, you mentioned the hours of your family man involved in various things and what have you. But that also means I don't have time really to do as much as I'd like to do politically, certainly. And, you know, I will, you know, if I have a couple of hours, an hour, to look at papers for meetings, that's lucky, you know. So, so I'm … digressing, but I don't, again, I don't think people really think about sort of party political, philosophical type issues, particularly. Because they, they’ve all got other things in life that you have to deal with.

FGG: I think they think of personality and engagement in the community, quite often for local politics, far more than party politics, and at national level. And actually, it may be to everybody's benefit locally, If we don't think about national party politics when we're voting?

PAR: No, that's what they tell you on the doorstep.

AP: Yes, I was about to say that, that's, not going because of people who vote, that's the thing that works.

PAR: In reality, they've got three votes because there are three to be elected, most will do all one party or another. And yes, there are some strays, which means some people, that quite often happens, but not realistically. The bulk of it is on party lines, even when we're saying they're not really necessary at town council level.

AP: Yes, and, actually, to back that up, if you have a situation where, say, there are two positions up, and there's, say one Labour, one Lib Dem and two Tories standing, which has happened recently, I’m not sure that’s quite the right numbers, and you think, the temptation is to think, ’Oh, that's great, because all those Labour people who don't have a second vote will vote for us’. They don't, they just vote Labour and no one else. So you'd like to, you know, so ….

PAR: Could you quickly describe proportional representation and how it works? And how it might work here?

AP: Oh, right now, that's, that's a whole can of worms.

FGG: I’ll just check the battery level?!

AP: Well, depending on how you do it, it's, there are many different systems. But basically, if it's proportional to the votes cast, then basically the whole character changes proportionally. So actually, the Town Council at the moment, I haven't checked, but that's probably about the right result nine seven. In terms of consider the Conservatives would still have a majority, I think I'd have to look at, but the point being, though, that whilst that might be the case, now, if people see their votes count, then the point is people with might then maybe vote for an independent or a smaller party or not just put it out there. But if you have transferable votes, which is what I'm saying our party is, you can do a system that combines both, but which Labour won't do, obviously, because they like, there's not enough control for them, but with the transferable votes, then you can say vote for your good local, independent, who you'd like to win. But, but in our concepts, you wouldn't vote for because the person you don't want to win might get in. But in that system, you can vote for them and then vote your second preference for the person to stop the person you don't want to get in winning. I've explained that really well, clearly, but …

PAR: Do you not finish up with a sort of dog's breakfast? I think what we've said already may suggest that we don't mind the dog's breakfast. But it is more serious at the higher level?

AP: Possibly. That argument is made, especially at the Westminster level, but I think the dog's breakfast, as you put it, is the correct model for councils, because they're close to community, they should represent the community. It should be more collaborative. I mean, I think the argument for proportional representation and single transferable vote, you know, case for local authorities is completely undeniable,

FGG: Does it not then push a lot of limited available local energy into forging collaborations and alliances sort of behind the scene as opposed to progressing action?

AP: Yes, and no. But the point is, currently, you get people progressing action who don't have the support of everyone. And certainly, if you look at the Westminster level, which we're not really concentrating on, currently, this would be interesting how historians look at this period, but can't really have it, have a party, and in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of many Conservatives, doing very extreme things with completely no checks or balances, forcing them through, and that just should not be possible in any system. And yes, the flip side is you get strong government in inverted commas. But I'd rather take the slightly more chaos and more conceptual approach.

PAR: So your party's hot on neighbourhood politics, as it were. So might you have a different message to the electorate in Ware, for example, to Hertford? Or how, how……?

AP: I think, actually, it's interesting. If you look at the…, I'm not talking about Westminster, look at the by-elections just recently, and this is actually, this is an accusation we get as Liberal Democrats that you might say one thing in one place or another. Whereas actually, that's not what, we do have to be cleverer than other parties just because we're small and we don't get the publicity. But in the by- election, certainly what we would do and this has been the winning formula, is that we ask people, what their concerns are, see if we have any solutions to those concerns that fit with what we believe in, and if we do we campaign on that. So we wouldn't campaign on something you wouldn't believe in.

But, but the point is, you know where you fit, do you see your beliefs, are your beliefs applicable in any of these situations? Effectively is that's so you could say, I mean locally saying where you might oppose a supermarket because, because it might cause traffic chaos or something where something else you might support it because it wouldn't. But that's not contradictory, you know, that's, you know, reflecting local circumstance.

PAR: How do you, as a group of people, liberal-minded people, elected or not elected, how do you communicate with each other locally? What are your, what's your, are you a little - , there are two Lib Dems on Hertford Town Council, elected members. Because presumably there are more than two of you in the community who would be active as party politicians? So what sort of communications between you, how do you ….

AP: Yes this will probably be dated for the historical record, but it's all WhatsApp these days. So I mean, the general membership has emails, and also there's meetings and what have you, but for people who are considered activists, it’s basically WhatsApp groups

FGG: So secure phone?

AP: Yeah, so yeah, I was going to say ‘What's a phone?’! But, um, yeah, so it's encrypted messages, and everyone can see them, and you can pass them between you. So it's like a conversation written down on your phone.

PAR: And do you raise funds? How do you pay for your expenses?

AP: Well, we have some fundraising. So one member has a barbecue every year that people go to, and pay to go to and then we have the other events we try to organise. Hopefully, there might be a whiskey tasting coming up.

PAR: Are tourists invited?!

AP: Well I suppose there might be some added as well! But it's mainly donations, honestly, and so we get, you know, some regular donations throughout the year. But basically, when the general election comes out, that's when most people will donate.

PAR: How do you find certain individual people to work with, what do you admire, or what would you rather you could change in people? Let's stick with the Town Council for the moment. Or include Josh, for example, in his notable campaign, and then whether you follow that in the St. Andrews division, where he nearly won the County seat years ago.

AP: I was, yeah, actually, [ Unclear]. But again, because as Liberal Democrats, we're a smaller party so we'd often sort of rely on squeeze votes as possible, rather than saying, as well as saying, vote for us because this is what we believe. We would if we were say second, we'd also say to Labour ‘Look’, you know, ‘We're second and actually you prefer us to Conservative so why not lend us your vote?’ And interestingly, in that, in Josh's campaign, a Lib Dem member told me that a Labour canvasser came to her door, and knocked on door and said, um, ’How … are you going to vote?’ and she said, Liberal Democrat, and he went, ‘Ok, thanks’, and walked off. And she ran after him down the street saying, ’but we can't win here, and I should vote Labour.’ Maybe there is a bit more they could have done but … yeah. Yeah, so back to Josh, Josh is very good, very collaborative. And he, there was a group, what’s it called it called now, I Love Hertford? It wasn't that some other guy, but there was a Hertford group we set up collaboratively for a while on the campaign on Bircherley Green, Bircherley Great Green and such like, yeah, so it's …

PAR: Do you have much to do with the Green Party?

AP: A bit,. I do only because I work with them on the Town Council. So and they're very go-getting. And I think they're an up and coming force, actually. History will come back and see if that's true.

PAR: No, I agree. Certainly, within the limits of our own, chiefly limited discussion about Hertford, I mean, the interesting simple thing, and you're telling me I've got the Greens wrong or Frances will, the actual green environmental bit, who wouldn't subscribe to those aims? And with the knowledge we now have about climate change rather than assertions, right, I think it can be a body of known facts now, whereas 10 years ago, there were still challenges.

AP: Well, I would possibly push back on that. I think there are challenges and people who wanted to make the challenges for other slightly various reasons. I mean, it was settled then. I remember learning about it at school, it was settled then. And it's just been certain people who may possibly be funded by US fossil fuel billionaires, pushing the, pushing any fear and doubt about it. But yes, I agree with it. I think even most people who have now accepted that this is the case.

PAR: But there are other Green Party agenda items, on their view of NATO and the value of NATO, for example, and the costs, that I think most people who plumped for the Greens, or did plump for the Greens in my ward in Bengeo, the last local elections, probably are being very superficial on the Green Party stuff, or do you not agree?

AP: Yes, I actually, I do agree. It's interesting that the Greens are kind of two parties. There's a kind of a socialist Green Party and then a more liberal Green Party. That’s best way to describe it, and I think, I think, well, some of the local ones are liberal Greens, some of them are socialist Greens. I'm not gonna tell you which is which, I'm sure you can work it out. But it's, yeah, they, it sounds like it's going to be ironic, a Lib Dem accusing someone of [getting] because no one knows what they stand for, but in a way, the Greens have got a really good picture, as you say, they’re called the Greens. I mean, their name is their message, I mean, that's brilliant. But no, people don't know that. I mean, they wanted to be in the EU until recently. I mean, I don't know whether it's stuff that changed in 97, maybe, maybe later than that. And obviously, they still want to leave NATO. So they're not internationalist, in the same way.

PAR: I remain a very good friend, I think, of Ben Crystall for example, because he, as a colleague working locally on very, very local issues, nothing to do with party politics, he's been really, really good. Give him a good, a good press. But, you know, I admire Jane Sartin. who often tells me off! And I'm not always, you know, in her best books, but somehow I understand, but I mean, what she has done as an individual councillor, really, from presenting Hertford Town Council and serving its community, I think is quite remarkable.

AP: Yes. No. I’m a big fan of Jane Sartin. Again, I’ve actually gravitated towards her, maybe because she’s probably the youngest of the Conservatives. Is that fair? And so you kind of naturally think, Oh, well, yeah, but no, yeah, absolutely. I think she's brilliant Chair of the Committee she does. Yeah. And um …..

PAR: She is actually very… as an elected member, we’ve had younger, elected members in the past., and we've got quite a lot of younger activists doorstepping. But in fact, no, you're right. I hadn't thought of that. She’s still, I won’t betray her age, but she's – I don’t think young Tories would accept an application for membership from her anymore!

FGG: But just to unpack that a bit, you're both saying you rate her highly. What are the characteristics that she displays that raise her in your estimation, if you're describing a local councillor who would be admired?

AP: Well, I would, I think she's empathetic, and she listens and all that kind of stuff. But I think also she's efficient, which I, again, talking about my busy life I really appreciate, efficient without cutting anyone off, which I could never quite manage although I've been chair of various things. I've never quite managed that skill of shutting people up. I'd say things just drag on. But yeah, she runs a good committee, she gets things done. And, you know, if you're listened to ….

PAR: I think she's got a vision as well, which we don't always have. It's so easy to deal with the next issue isn't it and take a line on it. You base that on other judgments and principles you may have in your mind. But to look forward as far as Jane has done particularly with the…, I suppose what we refer to, I was referring to at any rate, are what the Town Council does by way of staging events for the people. Rock at the Castle, thousands and thousands of people come to it and it's a tiny parish council with this very, very small staff that actually puts that on and Jane the elected member, chairman of that committee who really has enabled that to happen. But I mentioned it because it's my favourite, but none other things like car shows at the Castle and all sorts of … what else do we do on that agenda?

AP: There’s the outdoor cinema.

PAR: Yes, yes.

FGG: Remembrance?

PAR: The Remembrance parade to which the county town does its little bit. We’re a very small county town, population wise, but we still stage something that will happen in the county, a national event and county figures come to it because it's done well. And that's connected with the [xxx] party. But then there are all sorts of food tasting things, and on a pretty grand scale, and Christmas comes and stalls in the streets. And I just marvel at the way that’s put on by such a small team. And that has changed a bit because in the past organisations like Rotary, and the Civic Society in its early years, were more vital, populated by younger people, they've grown old but not been replaced. And so things like cycle racing around the town, and Hartham, massive Hartham events. You used… remember how they’re laid on by this little town council. We've lost that body of, although they still do some very good things, that's largely by a very small group of old men, who are heroes but small. That's interesting. I wondered about diversity is the word we use, have you covered, on representation, the ideal of a diverse Council, as it were, would your whatever you consider transferable vote or whatever, enable ……

AP: It, it should… that is to be one of the features that should involve a more diverse people to stand and win, so it should help. But I think, not wishing to give too much away although it’s all history, but that I think possibly all parties might have a problem with getting the number of people winning, to be winning candidates. And, and that, obviously, that has an effect on diversity as well, because I'm saying we've got a big push in the party to be able to have diversity officers and we've got to, you know, try and work out strategy for you to have getting diverse candidates. But honestly, getting the candidates first would be the big thing, you know, we don't really have to see the space really to make it more diverse, because getting people at all is the issue really. So it's how would you make it more attractive generally to a range of people? That's the thing.

PAR: And then, within the diversities, there’s the age thing, we tend to think of racial cultural diversity, but then the big sexual agenda comes in, doesn't it, in a big way. I've been following a chap who is a non-binary, green hair and all sorts of things, past, immediate past, mayor of Bangor, the city of Bangor, I just think, you know, and he was addressing a rally yesterday at Parliament on, er, so getting sexual diversity, which, we're now uncovering, is more important than we may have thought it in the past. It's an additional challenge, isn't it, in recruitment of candidates?

AP: And also there's interesting, er, interesting tension between the respect for tradition, I'll put it that way, in the Town Council and the more diverse issues coming up and, as I said, again maybe small beer as you know, but I did both try to prod occasionally a product about changing Chairman to be Chair and the ruling party is absolutely against that and do you think it actually could be that Jane Sartin is actually…. again, again as I become older and more mature (haha) I try to see that people are slightly more complicated than just Chairs, so yeah, Jane’s often dead against change. I think she's big on tradition, which is fine, but some of these and, again, due to my prejudices maybe, I wasn't expecting that. I was like: Oh, OK. I thought it was interesting in itself. But, um, but no, there was a big push back on that. But I think eventually that kind of change, changes, will have to come.

PAR: Yeah.

FGG: Isn't it because you know, speaking as a non-political local, there is a sense that it is remote, It is not representative, It doesn't reflect the community, It is a bunch of privileged people who are simply enacting a remote game, which really has no relevance.

AP: Yeah, I yeah, I completely agree with, but I try not to completely agree with that, because I would upset too many people, but I do completely agree with that. And I, um, and I know every time we go through the council of aims, one of the big ones is, you know, increasing our use of traditions. No, that's the worst possible thing. But I thought it's not worth, it's not it's not worth having that fight until we get a majority. But um, you know …..

PAR: That's where we were different.

AP: Yes. Yes, I know. But…

PAR: And, really, I see the tradition as being an attractive thing, another thing that may well help our economy, for example, but I don't see it as…….

FGG: [overtalking] … open access, that they're not binary choices, are they? I know that you can merge the two and try to define the best one and the best ……

PAR: The ‘chairman’ word is the wrong word for me. Xxx I just don't …, I see it as a normal thing, not the man emphasis being there, I just don't … I just see it as a word that has men on the end of it. So it doesn't, I can't really see how people anyway…..

FGG: So the alternative view as I see it, and I see the man emphasis on the end. And I think with a sort of heightened awareness that, you know, these are a set of words and a language that has come out of an era in which women were disengaged and not part. And so there is an element of wanting to challenge, not for the sake of being necessarily revolutionary, but just raising a consciousness about the fact that if we don't question some of these things and revisit them and decide whether they're still valuable and appropriate, we keep a lot of the language that keeps people out of it. So it's not intended to be an aggressive or an assertive or a sort of revolutionary act, it's just saying that, you know, it's worth just bringing a contemporary lens to some of these things and seeing whether they still work in the way they're intended.

AP: Going back to other things - different, different backgrounds, different perspectives, I just didn't see that it might have been revolutionary 40 years ago, but actually, it's absolutely normal. I've never been the ‘chairman’ of anything in my life. I've been ‘chair’ of loads of things. So when I saw it I was ‘what’s that’.

PAR: So, I think we're probably pretty well there?

FGG: I just wanted to explore really more the personal side, I think, because we've talked about how you engage with politics and the things that are important and how you see things. I suppose there's an interest in why, you know, because very many people live a life locally, which, you know, doesn't engage with the political as we've talked about. But here you are somebody who is actively stepped into that throne. So you talked about your background and doing the computer science background and your job. So what brought you into local politics?

AP: I realised I was thinking this before, when Peter asked the first question about it, I completely ignored it and that's a different question. So no, going back to that. So I'd like to, I was, I don't, I suppose in fact, you go back I …. so I was in a state school in Leicestershire till I was 16. And then I moved to Edinburgh because my dad’s job moved. And he was in careers actually. So he actually asked his careers people at university, would you accept highers, which is what they do in Scotland? And they said, what's the highers?

So we thought, okay, we need to find a place that does A levels and the only place I could do A levels was in a private school. So I was at private school for 16 to 18. And I don't, I don't know if it had an effect on my politics, and I think it probably did, because they're just the kids. And this is, you know, no empathy, no, they're just pleased. Even the teachers are saying, you know, we're obviously, you know, Conservative and, you know, again you’ve won the locals and, but you’re a teacher, you know, and I remember, in 92, I think, I think by putting the Neil Kinnock badge on or something which was ripped off angrily at the playground, you know, and I remember they put me in the bin. I was thinking, I don't know, this happened to me when I was eight and now I'm 16, what is going on? But it's always people…. But, so, I don't know. But knowing, but then the reason I got into into Lib Dems again, I'd like to, like to claim it was some great philosophical thing, but basically, my sister joined two years before. She was two years older than me at a different university and she said, ‘Oh, I know the bloke who does the [xxx] He's very nice, go and see him’, so joined at Freshers Fair. And in a way that said, it is a, it is a kind of values thing, as I'll talk about as I as I get older and more wizened and I my, my bar has got a lot lower in terms of societal change, but, but at the time, basically, they’re all nice people. And I, I'm sure they're nice people in the past. I'm not saying that, although I kind of am, in the authoritarian liberal split, which makes us separate from Labour and the Conservatives in that I always with, there's this kind of patronising arrogance going on always with the other party's authoritarian thing, you know, so if you've always called me, not an angry young man, but a principled, concerned young man or somebody, but somebody in the age of, you know, oh, it's sweet, you care about things, you know. And so basically, everyone [xxx] nice. And there's none of that, really. And there was at the time that I honestly could say, 100% I agree with everything you said, generally, xxx.

And that drifts. Over time you think, Oh, here because [probably] the Liberal Democrats, because we get no publicity and when we do we have to be absolutely spot on, say nothing in any way wrong we have to get - and when they don't I get so annoyed, and ‘why did you say that? That's clearly not liberal’. But, but, but no, I still generally, you know, 90% agree with what we say. But no, but going on to what I feel now, apart from, so I'm sort of less revolutionary is that [so for the] word. Because, as I say, people are too busy to engage in politics. I'd love more people to engaged, that'd be marvellous. And I'd love nothing more than a better voting system, we'll fix that, just make that better a certain extent. However, I want a dog's breakfast collaborative government that can only do things that are going on in the background, thank you very much. So I don't have to worry about it and get back to actually do maybe doing something else. But because there's just all these existential threats everywhere that we can't, that, that people have absolute power everywhere, I feel I have to be involved in sort of worrying about the answer to your question. So in a way, I’d kind of like it to go away, so I don't have to be, I can go do something else. But I feel I have this, um, I know, you know, a little local level, it might be not quite as impactful as some but hopefully I made little differences every now and then.

PAR: So I'll do one quick question, just putting you on the spot for the last time. Are we doing the right thing by spending as much as we are on refurbishing Hertford theatre, £20 million? It’s this council so you're not responsible for ……

AP: Oh indeed, and there are very vigorous debates. And actually, it's difficult, it's difficult to speak out against something that's clearly for a population because obviously getting stuff spent on you is good. But, you know, it was a perfectly good theatre. It, I mean, the first thing that they did was change from Castle Hall was brilliant, and I think it worked really well. And the amount of money, it's a ridiculous amount of money. And for cinema screens, which as we saw in history, they might not people think what are cinemas, you know, when they're listening to this in 30 years. Why would people go to the cinemas? You can stream it or you can get a massive thing on your wall, you can do this clever magic you know, you can get your flying screen that we’ll have in the future and.. I think I looked somewhere that the business plan is based on charging £8 for a cup of coffee. Yes, so and also things like you know, when local theatre groups want to, you know, buy a packaged production so all the sets all the rights of the music and things it's based on what they charge is based on auditorium capacity. So all of these local groups will, actually, will not be able to afford to do what they used to do in the new theatre. So, yeah ….

PAR: Very good answer. [Proof of the theatre event. Yeah]. Well, there we, I think with a neat ….

FGG: There's just one thing that it's nice to capture, and that's, you know, for anyone out there who might be reading the transcript in the nearer future, and is thinking about getting into politics and local politics, how much of a workload is there in general? Take us into the, you know, the logistics behind the scenes. I mean, how much time would somebody be asked to give up to this, to perform a reasonable role in local politics? And how do you manage it really?

AP: Badly! No. Well, the Town Council isn't, so I mean, it depends what you're trying to do, really. But obviously, you've got Town Council meetings, which have full council every couple of months. and then various committees, you'd want to read the papers for all of those.

PAR: It's a meeting every Monday night, virtually.

AP: Yes, if you're on planning it's just endless.

PAR: Fortnightly.

AP: Yeah, it takes time. I mean, the only thing that can be done, again, you don't get any kind of allowance for Town Council, which came as a shock to someone, not mentioning any names. But um, so I think that is doable, certainly, at Herts, East Herts level, I'd say a day a week, would you say? That's, well, that's the feedback I get from our Lib Dem councillors, to do it properly.

PAR: Oh yes, more hours.

AP: More even, yes.

PAR: It depends, your variable is your individual postbag. And really the work that is generated from it, it's not just reading something and passing it on, but quite a lot of it is. But there's a lot that requires them to act more than just respond with an opinion or tell someone where to go. And then there are wonderful things like Neighbourhood Plans, which people listening in the future will think, ‘Well, that's pretty obvious. You need one’, but created by the communities. That's the definition of a Neighbourhood Plan, it must rise up, not Council bestowing a series of ideas and getting people to vote because they consulted on the council ideas, but they've got to arise from the community and all that takes a great deal of time from a councillor. You need to be present for all of those meetings with residents.

And the Bengeo plan, of course, the electorate in Bengeo being what it is, pretty bright, intelligent, principled, and with some vision. Not every single person living in Bengeo would actually have all of those attributes, but there are enough there to make that an extremely lively affair. I think Kingsmead Ward has probably not had the same because of the nature of our boundaries that the wards are very, very different and Bengeo includes Ware Park, includes territory right up to Goldings at Waterford, a bit of the town centre, Folly Island and what we all know as the [the benches] so that's, that's a hugely varied…. Your Kingsmead Ward has some business but not very much, it's largely residential with a shop or two, and so the nature of the preparing the Neighbourhood Plan for Kingsmead has been rather different, way less demanding, unless your name is Vicki, who spearheads the whole thing then she's done an enormous amount of work as an individual and consultant. So that's all work of the councillor and it was pretty big, and it's at town level councils deem at the moment too big and diverse a ward to do a Neighbourhood Plan for the whole ward. Sele was like Kingsmead much easier, but more complicated than Kingsmead even tighter. So yeah, I think there's I don't think we could more than the day. At district level, county of course, it's more, even say almost a full time..

AP: It's difficult one doesn't want put anyone off at all. But, um, but so you mentioned Neighbourhood Plans and this is the other thing you see, because this, that's the other kind of thing I've picked up on is maybe it's a Town Councillor, because obviously we don't have a great deal, but we’re kind of a port of call if people can see as we'll go and see the person higher up whose actually got something to do with it.

But also, I do feel that we don't get consulted at all, when we should from the higher councils. And, and some people, sometimes it happens, [and then they ignore as the thing like], fine. And that's the same with Neighbourhood Plans in a way, to people. It sounds like, they are a good thing. But people think yes, you know, normal people think yes, I'll help with that, that's great. And then they very quickly come up to the fact they're not actually allowed to do anything. Because no, they can't say we don't need houses there. They can't say stop. That's not, not… incompetence. So a lot of people would fall off at that point.

PAR: Yes, everything has got to correlate and fit in with higher things on the structure. So you're very, very, yes, you are limited. But nevertheless, there's some good projects, coming out of it. One is we are engaged in at the moment on transferring a bit of waste-ish land into something more useful for the community… Duncombe Road? Yeah, but anyway, I think that's it.

FGG: Anything else from you, Andrew, that you wanted to say while you're here?

AP: Oh, probably but I can't think.

FGG: In that case, we'll end the recording. Thank you very much.

END OF RECORDING