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Transcript Title	Booker, Gerry (O2012.1)
Interviewee	Gerry Booker (GB)
Interviewer	David Hunt (DH) and Susie Hunt (SH)
Date	19/01/2012
Transcriber by	Susie Hunt

Transcript

Hertford Oral History Group

Recording no: O2012.1

Interviewee: Gerry Booker (GB)

Date: 19th January 2012

Venue: The Garden House, Churchfields, Hertford

Interviewer: David Hunt (DH) and Susie Hunt (SH)

Transcriber: Susie Hunt

Typed by: Susie Hunt

************** unclear recording

[discussion] untranscribed material

italics editor’s notes

DH: Would you like to start by telling us about your early life in fairly brief detail?

GB: Ah, right. Well, I was born right at the end of 1930 the day after Boxing Day. I was actually expected to be a Christmas child but erm was late then as I have been frequently since. I was born in Hove, where my parents lived and I grew up there until I was 18 and then went, having won a scholarship when I was 11. I went to the local grammar school which was a recently established grammar school, a local education grammar school, and from there went to Oxford in 1948.

I’d hoped to go into the army to follow my father’s footsteps and he’d saved me his Sam Browne as he’d hoped I’d be commissioned and go in there, but when I came to have my medical they discovered that I had a perforated ear drum and therefore was unfit for military service and by great good fortune the place that had been reserved for me at St Peter’s College at Oxford was able to be transferred from the following year back to that particular year and I was rescued from being an invoicing clerk after only a month doing the job and being driven almost mad by it! (laugh)

And so I went to Oxford and had the intention of being ordained so I went as an ordinand or a prospective ordinand to Oxford but I read English there and when I came to the end of my time, my three years at Oxford I felt that I was in need of getting experience of the wider world and so didn’t go straight to theological college but emigrated to Canada where I worked in Montreal as an aircraft engineer. Having read English it seemed the obvious thing to do! And an American company was setting up in business there The Pratt and Whitney Company which made aircraft engines and the had no experience in the workforce around and so they bought their experience by hiring people who knew nothing and trying to train them so that they knew something. That was quite interesting experience for me and I had an education of a different sort there because I went to work each day driven by an English Canadian who picked up a French Canadian who picked up myself and an Irishman and a Welshman and we went in the early hours of the morning each day across the river at Longdale and to the new factory and I learnt more in terms of my vocabulary than I had previously of the rougher side of the English language! (laughter)

That was my experience there but I had every intention of coming back to this country and training for the ministry and so a year or so later I did come back and went to Cambridge, which I thought was a good idea, part of the Oxford mission to Cambridge and I went to Ridley College there to train for the ministry and there I was for two years as an ordinand. I was a bit shattered when I got on the boat to come back home because I was talking to one of the crew and it was a Cunard ship and he said at one stage “You Americans...” and I was a bit sort of, I didn’t realise that I had acquired an accent in my year in Canada!

DH: How long were you there?

GB: I was there for just over a year.

DH: Oh really.

GB: But I’ve always been a bit of a mimic and therefore he assumed I was American, or Canadian and er I had to disabuse him of that (laugh) and I had to get rid of this accent that I’d picked up quite quickly at Cambridge and they looked upon me rather strangely.

I arrived late for term because of the timing of my job and erm they wondered who this was who had arrived in their midst with this broad American accent so I managed to lose that within I think the first term and trained for two years for the ministry, but even then I felt that I was still a bit wet behind the ears and so in my last year I went to get a title, as it is called, in the speak of the Church of England, a curacy at Southampton and was quite impressed by the rector, but then I met his wife who was clearly the di-rector! So I decided no that wasn’t for me and really I ought to do a bit more before I became a parson because I had a very limited experience of life generally.

So that I decided that I would teach for two or three years and I applied in batches of three for teaching jobs and the first three applications produced two interviews. I was offered the job at one but I couldn’t tell them whether I would take it or not because I had previously agreed for interview at Hertford and I felt it wrong to accept a job before I had had an interview there and so that cost me that job which was a post at a central foundation Grammar School in London and I found myself on the coach one bitterly cold day in January on my way to an interview at a place called Hertford which I knew very little about and the snow was piled up high on either side of the road.

SH: What year was this?

GB: This was the year..

SH: The year of the big snow?

GB: It was the year of the big snow, it was 1955, and I came to Hertford to be interviewed for a job as a teacher in Religious Knowledge and English and was met by the Headmaster who was in his last year of being Headmaster having been Headmaster for nearly a quarter of a century, and his name was Tommy Bunt and he was quite a character in the town, and he interviewed me, roared with laughter at the description he’d had of me from the University Appointments Board which told him only that I had rimless glasses, and nothing else I think (laughter) and he said that the job I’d applied for had already been filled and so I was a bit squashed by that one, but he’d got another job in mind for me and so erm would I accept.

So I thought great stuff this is the way I like interviews to be, you are offered the job straight away and so I accepted a job at what was then called The Hertford Grammar School which was in its final year in that form. It was not only the Headmaster’s final year but it was the final year of Hertford Grammar School, and I found digs in a village just outside of Hertford called Waterford and I was in digs at the local shop-cum-cafe-cum-post office and I fell on my feet there because it was an absolutely…. place and I got on extraordinarily well with the fold there, a Mr and Mrs Murphy, who ran the establishment and there I thrived. I used to cycle in from Waterford to Hertford daily and that was quite worthwhile. It was a small boys selective Grammar School, a fairly elderly one founded in 1617 and erm I really enjoyed life enormously when I went there.

DH: What did you teach?

GB: I taught English and RE and I had two words of advice from two of the elderly members of staff on the first day I was there I remember. One of them who was the Major in charge of the Army Corps in the school said - When you go into your first classroom hit the first boy you see smartly round the head and say That’s for nothing now.. you wait till you do something! (laughter) The other one who was a South African said to me in a very languid fashion, as they always did - The trouble with your predecessor was that he treated the boys as if they were human beings! (laughter)

So I was a bit chastened by this sort of advice and realised it could enter into your soul as a teacher, but I decided to ignore both sets of advice and I went on to teach (laughter). I was given a particular class to look after as form master and this was according to the philosophy of dear Tommy Bunt who had been Headmaster for many years and it was the worst class in the school, it had seven boys on probation in it.

SH and DH: Oh gosh!

GB: And it was called Remove B and it had all the echoes of being a drop out class and…

DH: How old were they?

GB: They were 15 and not an easy age and some of them were quite admirable and some were less than that, and I had the misfortune within three weeks of starting my teaching, of cycling down the very long entrance drive to the school at that date in those days because the school drive in those days went from the school right down to Castle Street and it had newly been tarred and gravelled and my front lamp bracket slipped round into the spokes of my bike and I went over the top and ended in hospital having 19 stitches to my face.

SH: Oh no!

GB: And er, so for the next month or two I was a bit like some grotesque monster when I went back to my teaching because I had a hugely swollen face with black eye and blood everywhere and that sort of thing and erm I couldn’t wear my glasses and so I, in those days one could, I said to them as I came in, the first day from getting back from this accident, I put a pair of plimsolls onto the desk and said I can’t actually see everyone clearly at the back but if I hear anyone I will lay about me with these in that area and they sort of thought that was quite fun ()laughter) and they couldn’t have been nicer. I mean they were tough kids but they really thought poor old devil ...

SH: They appreciated your plight!

GB: ...we’ll sort of let him off, you know and that meant I had an entrée into being comfortable with the boys in a most remarkable fashion.

DH: You were still in your mid-twenties then?

GB: Yes, that’s right, and of course, as a teacher in my early twenties I was Old Mr Booker! Or “Old Booker” or many other things but I ended up actually being “Holy Joe” (laughter) but erm that was my teaching there, so after a year our Headmaster left and the school changed its name and began to expand as a Comprehensive School, and we had a new Headmaster called Donald Jack who came to head up the school and was there for the rest of my time there.

I started at the school early, oddly enough in the summer term of 1955 and I left at the end of the summer term of 1961 when I had applied for a job as Librarian and Lecturer at the local Training College, which was called Balls Park College and which was an emergency college which had been set up after the war as many had in order to train teachers who were in very short supply and er I went to a very different world because it was a college which in those days when I began was almost entirely ladies who were being trained for Primary School teaching. It gradually changed and we had a number of men joining us, principally mature men, people who had gone into teaching later in life but we had more men on the staff, but when I arrived at Balls Park to the grandly entitled Mansion, it was as one of only three people on the staff whowere men, the rest were women!

The College was run by Monica Wingate was the Principal, and she was the sister of Orde Wingate, who led the Chindits in Burma and organised things in rather military fashion. In fact we used to call the notices she put up on the notice board Part 1 orders! She ran a fairly tight ship but she was fortunately although a spinster lady at the time she was quite well disposed towards the opposite sex and we men fared rather better than the ladies did when it came to her, the lash of her tongue (laughter) and so I had a very pleasant time up there indeed. It was a gracious setting for work in that the Mansion was a lovely building. We had beautifully oak panelled staff common room. We had beautifully made triangular sandwiches for tea each day with our cups of tea and er life was quite pleasant and we travelled around the county supervising teaching practice as well as caring through a lecture course in various main study courses that the students took. And I was the librarian and I was also a lecturer in English and it became obvious to me after a very short period of time that I would have to make a choice because when you do two things in teaching you don’t get very far in either of them if you’re not careful. So I had to decide which would be my specialism and I in fact became a lecturer in English after about two years and a Librarian was appointed and eventually I ended up as head of the English Department at the college. I had 19 years at Balls Park College and I look upon them very fondly in my memory. I was a very pleasant place to be. The parkland was lovely.

DH: Were there any outbuildings at all?

GB: The College was being expanded of course constantly during the time that I was there and new living accommodation for the students was being built. A block of very nice rooms on the opposite side of the road from the Mansion, on the opposite side of Mangrove Road, and it was a very pleasant site and they were very pleasant people.

The girls I found very easy to work with and for and they were of course a bit more mature than school children and they were getting their independence and er, it was a fascinating time and of course, I continued to see some of my old students because Balls Park was a bit like the proverbial honey for the bees as far as the menfolk of Hertford were concerned and we had them visiting us, officially and unofficially, quite frequently. So that was very pleasant.

DH: May I ask, erm, when did Simon Balle School start. Presumably its land came out of the Balls Park estate?

GB: Yes, Simon Balle’s land certainly came out of the Balls Park estate and it was built by the time I went to begin my teaching in 1955. When exactly it was built I don’t know but it was very new at that point.

DH: Post war?

GB: It was certainly post war, yes. Initially it was a Secondary Modern school which then became Comprehensive and the then Headmaster who had been Deputy Head at the Broxbourne Grammar School fashioned it according to his particular philosophy which was to try and make it a Grammar School, so as the fortunes of Richard Hale went down so the fortunes of Simon Balle came up and for a while there was I think, you know sort of a fair parity between the two which is perhaps not quite the case now, I don’t know. I mean they seem both to do a similar job, the only difference being that of course Simon Balle is co-educational and therefore has a slightly different clientele from Richard Hale.

But we had very few direct links at the College with the School. We had the one meeting place which was in order to get a swimming pool for either of them we had to share one swimming pool so the College and the School shared the swimming pool and that made for contact between the two quite frequently but we didn’t have a particularly close relationship with the School. Our students went into it to teach when as happened as the College developed more and more of the people were being trained for secondary subjects in what were then called the shortage subjects and one of the shortage subjects in my day was English so that I had students in secondary schools which I was more accustomed to than the Primary Schools which I was generally seeing students teaching in.

It was a time of rapid expansion. A time when erm shortage of teachers was desperate so that one had pressure on one not to fail people who had two legs and could breathe because they were needed in the classrooms (laughter!) and so I feel sometimes a little cynical about the comments that are made about education and standards and teaching and so on because at that time anything that breathed and life was welcome and erm you know one had to make compromises. It was very difficult to fail a student not that one wanted to. There were times when one felt that a particular student might not be of the sort of calibre that you would wish to see in front of a class of children but you were told to make allowances. Erm, obviously that has its effect on the general standard of teaching that there is and er, you have to bear this in mind when you talk of the profession. There were splendid students there and as well as the also-rans, but there were many also-rans!

It was fascinating for me having taught boys at the grammar school I was then teaching young ladies who’s boyfriends were often the boys that I’d taught at the grammar school and later on in life of course, when I became a parson I married quite a number of them (laughter!), which was quite fascinating, so that I feel that although I’m not a Her'ford person I’m almost naturalised because I do know so much about Hertford and Hertford life!

SH: Yes, well you do now, yes.

GB: Yes, well, I’m going to pause at this point because.....

[pause for discussion]

GB: Right. I have a great memory of coming down to my interview in Hertford through the snows and I was, in fact, at the time one of three people at my college who decided they wouldn’t get ordained directly. They might get ordained at some time or another.

SH: Which college was this?

GB: This was Ridley Hall, and one of my colleagues was in fact a chap called Michael Alison, who became instead a member of parliament and was Margaret Thatcher’s Permanent Private Secretary. The other chap went off to work, as a layman with South American Missionary Society but I had decided I would teach for two or three years and it was in fact 19 years later that I thought I ought to think about getting ordained.

So I had to go through the whole process for a second time. I went to a second selection board. I was again extraordinarily enough, accepted and then they said well of course after all these years you’ll be very rusty as far as theology is concerned so we’d like you to do a part time course for a year at another theological college. So I have the distinction of having been to two theological colleges because I had a year at Oakhill College at Southgate on a part time basis whilst I was still teaching and so I’ve been done twice! (laughter) That’s a fairly unusual thing but I had 19 years at Balls Park and then the final ...

SH: Gaining plenty of experience really.

GB: Gaining a good deal of experience and during that time also although I had ceased to lecture in Religious Knowledge early on in my time, I had become a Reader in the Church of England and preached and took services around and about in the diocese all that time and so when the time came later on that I was offered early retirement from teaching it happened to coincide with the time at which I was thinking once again more clearly of becoming ordained. It was a happy sort of meeting of interests, because I was able to say ‘Yes please’ when they asked me if I was happy to be made redundant and so I retired from teaching and within three months was a country parson with three villages to look after.

SH: Which were?

GB: They were the villages of Waterford, Stapleford and Bramfield but that’s er the second part of my story because I had two careers and er it has sort of completed the picture for me of the local society because I not only have taught the boys and taught the young ladies but I have now married them and buried them and heaven knows what all, you know and taken their baptisms and whatever, so it’s a fascinating thing and was for the reason that I was so happy being in this particular area but I didn’t want to move away from the area when I ceased to be actively full time paid member of the Church of England, so I was able to retire back to the house that I had had built in Hertford but when I did eventually retire in 1995, somewhere about that.

SH: Right.

GB: No, it was a bit later than that erm…

DH: This house?

GB: No, the house that I had built was just in the Chestnuts because when I came to Hertford incidently in 1955 I was astonished at how little development there had been right near the middle of the town. Hagsdell Road when I arrived in Hertford was an unmade up track with hedgerows on either side.

DH: And the top of Queens Road!

GB: At one end there was Scott House and at the other end of the road there was the Mangrove House Hotel and there were fields and erm when I changed from teaching to teacher training this coincided with my marriage and so my wife, my late wife, and I switched. She had been a teacher and was then teaching at the Froebel Institute in London training teachers.

DH: Roehampton?

GB: Roehampton. And I was a teacher but I switched to teacher training just at the time she switched back into teaching and she having already had a post at the High School at Welwyn Garden City went back there to be the Head of, erm, again the Head of Geography and, no sorry, she wasn’t, she was the Senior Mistress there and then she went to Goffs School in Cheshunt and finally ended up, before her retirement, as the Vice Principal of the 6th Form College at Luton.

DH: Oh, right.

GB: And so the two of us you know spent most of our time erm whilst we were married in education. Sadly just as I was about to retire from the Ministry, Jean, who had retired about 18 months before, was diagnosed with cancer and died. But between the two of us we had a fair experience of the young people of this area.

SH: Must have, yes,

GB: Quite fascinating, and er stood us in good stead, except for the fact that I have a very poor memory of names and I constantly meet people in Hertford who greet me like a long lost brother whose names escape me entirely!

SH: I think you’re not alone in this.

GB: So, I have had to devise a strategy for introducing two people both of whose names I can’t remember, to each other, so I now say when this happens, Oh you two, do you know each other, do introduce yourselves, you know. (laughter) And this circumvents a rather awkward sort of situation. But the great thing about having been a teacher, as you will well know, is that erm you know so many people in the area and they know you erm and you can’t remember them unless they were villains or extremely bright.

SH: You vaguely remember their faces but ..

GB: That’s right, and so it does present an absent minded old geyser like me with certain problems about introductions of people. I had 19 years at Balls Park college and during that time the college was expanding and new building was being done and er we had various worthies coming to open new buildings. We had the Chairman of the NUT on one occasion, and we had the Queen Mother on another occasion. She came to erm to open a new part of the College, and that gives me a nice little opportunity to tell you of the sort of attitude we have to Royals and Royal Visitation. Because the Queen Mother was coming to open the latest part of the college, a great deal of decoration, painting and trimming up and smartening up of....the Mansion building was being done.

She then, unfortunately, had an accident, broke a bone in her foot, and was not able therefore to climb stairs. So the decoration stopped just beyond eye level up the staircase! (laughter) And it would seem to me in my cynicism that this was fairly typical of the local authority. You were Royalty, but if they can’t see it, don’t bother about it. But there it was we had - she was a very charming person to come to open the thing. She had this feeling for Hertfordshire as you know and this connection with Hertfordshire and therefore took a great interest and had tea with some of the students and was absolutely delightful with them and the only thing I could say which is contrary to my good opinion of her is that her teeth were awful. But she was a lovely person and my opinion of royalty was much improved by her visitation, which is good, but erm there we are, 19 very happy years. And then the college was about to become a part of a new university and it did not seem to me that this, well the

Principal, Miss Wingate, had often said in, the first Principal I served under, because I served under two Principals, Miss Wingate and then Dr Paul Sangster who became Principal after Monica retired and Monica used to say ‘Well there are universities and universities.’

And er that seemed to be to me a very honest opinion of what would happen when all sorts of institutions were suddenly transmuted into becoming universities and I think it will take them a long time, some of them, before they mature into being universities. It was a cheap way of expanding higher education that the government had thought of and er although it cost actually a lot of money, in terms of buildings that needed to be built in order to be new universities. It takes much longer for a university to become academically, and in its ethos, a true university and it seems to me that still today there are universities and universities.

I have great admiration for the university of Hertfordshire which had had enormous amounts of money lavished on it and is doing in some directions a very fine job but it is not a university as I understand and experienced and er I think it will take time for it to develop. But I felt that I was not a university lecturer and therefore I was offered early retirement and took early retirement from the college and made a great mistake and went back into education back into school and having had 20 years in an adult world I found myself in a child's world again and found it very difficult. This was made much more difficult by the fact that I was appointed as the first permanent Deputy Head of the Herts and Essex High School in Bishop's Stortford which was a girls’ school and that wouldn’t have been difficult as I had been working in a predominantly women's institution anyway but for the fact that the senior staff at the school decided they did not want a man to be over them and I had four interesting years as Deputy Head at the High School at Bishops Stortford before I got the chance of early retirement from teaching which I took with both hands because it coincided with my having been ordained as a non-stipendiary and now being a parson.

I was able to go to the then Bishop and say ‘here I am make use of me’. I was a bit stunned when he said ‘Oh I’m not used to finding jobs for people like that’, but he did and er I found myself within three months of actually retiring from teaching I was a country parson, which was lovely and I had 14 very happy years as a country parson before I retired for a second time, which is a great thing and an opportunity that few people get and I felt very privileged to have had it.

I think erm, without any doubt the experience I’d had of life up to that point made me more fitting as a, or made me more adept at the work of being a parson. I think one had a broader understanding than people who perhaps had come straight from college, to theological college and then to being a parson, have, because there is a, and then there are common elements in both jobs, the pastoral aspect of teaching is important. I always felt it was very important and this again stands one in good stead, as a parson, so that was good.

SH: Now, would you like to tell us anything about your private life – children or…

GB: Oh yes, sorry, yes! I’ve left out that haven't I, yes. Well, Jean and I got married in 1961 and we changed jobs as I told you we switched over jobs and er my wife was very gifted as a teacher, a superb teacher and for whom I had great admiration and so when the children were born we had er a daughter, Sarah and then lost a couple of babies early on in pregnancy, and so there was a gap between our two children but fortunately for me and because my dear wife wanted a boy our second boy was a boy and with four years between the two of them. Sarah was born in 1966 and Jeremy in 1970 and er they were a delight and joy to us and the sun shone out of my son as far as his dear mother was concerned and she was the, absolutely delighted. She worked hard as teacher so that he could have the best of everything including education. So we took him out of what in those days was called Family Grouping at Primary school. Two classes joined together, 70 children, two teachers, open plan, very little supervision…

SH: I remember that at Hertford Heath Primary.

GB: And this suited Jeremy in the sense that he was a dreamer and that he could dream and not work and so we felt that we must do something about this.

I had just started as Deputy Head at Bishops Stortford and so an obvious possibility for us was that he go to the prep school at Bishops Stortford College, which I could take him to and fro each day. So it happened and he was in the classroom of 16 boys sitting in four rows of four desks and not able to avoid the notice of the teacher who was teaching and it didn’t bother him at all, he thrived on it, and the progress he made during that period was astonishing, and it came easily to him.

His best friend was the brightest boy in the class when he began and he outshone him at the end but he erm did well there and then fortunately for me and for him just at the time when I was changing from being a teacher to a parson Haileybury College began a day boy house and he was I think in the second intake of the day boy house at Haileybury and erm again that suited him admirably. He wanted the comforts of home, he wasn’t daft, but the atmosphere there - he took a while to settle down because he wasn’t a rugby player but he found his passion and interest in life through the music there and had a very happy time towards the end of his time at Haileybury. It did him very well and he did very well and he managed to get to university.

He didn’t get to my university sad to say. I took him to Oxford and showed him the delights and the joys of it and I thought he’d be very impressed. We went to Magdalen College that particular Saturday and they were recording a CD and I thought, Oh gosh that will impress him, and at the end of the time we got back and I was thoroughly exhausted having taken him round the College and I said what did you think? And he said, well dad that was quite impressive, but ever since I was 13 years old I have decided I would either go to Kings College, Cambridge or St John's College, Cambridge, because he used to go from the choir at All Saints' Church to hear the services at one or the other and fortunately for him two groups in the choir among the men one of whom supported Kings College and one of whom supported the St John's choirs and so he got both, so he became friends to both groups and was taken off to hear services sung by them and decided, as I say, that he would go to one or the other and he was fortunate enough to go to St John's and enjoyed it.

DH: I went to Kings (laughs).

GB: Yes. He wasn’t good enough as a singer to be a chorister at St Johns so he very happily went just across the road to Magdalen College and sang in their choir.

DH: Oh, right!

GB: That was - they were less high powered and he got benefits from it and loved it, so he had a very happy time and did extremely well and so that worked out very well. So the children both of them did well at school, both of them of course, were well aware of what teaching was all about and we said now what would you like to do in life and would you like to be a teacher and they both with one voice said no we’d rather have a real job thank you!

DH: (Laughs) - Work in the real world!

GB: That’s right, and so they did. But it was slightly chastening for the two of us who were both - I mean I had found a vocation in teaching which is why I think I stayed in it longer than I should have but erm you know the idea that it wasn’t a real job didn’t chime very easily with my own experience. (laughter)

SH: It happens to teachers.

GB: It does, I’m afraid, yes.

DH: Did Sarah go to university?

GB: Sarah went to university but was in a radical frame of mind at that point and no she wouldn’t dream of going into that part of education. She would stay at Presdales and would go to the university that she would decide and so she did very well in her A levels and had offers of places at Bristol and other universities.

She decided that the course that she had found at Reading University suited her in Geography, so like her mother she read Geography, but neither of them when they compared notes found any overlap between what each had done in Geography at their particular universities, because Geography at Reading was very much involved with planning and such things and so when she left university she became a planner for Tesco and was in site planning with them and she got married and had children. That didn’t work out well and so she’s back again with the rival firm, Sainsbury’s doing her planning and has a daughter and twin sons so ..

DH: Is she involved with the new Sainsbury's in Hertford?

GB: Well, sort of peripherally. It was on the drawing board before she changed to, she had been working for another company, called Bax Leisure, then she went to Sainsbury's. So that was pretty well under way but er, there’s been a hiccup or two in the building of it and some delays, but apparently it will happen and apparently it will happen sometime in the coming year.

DH: So we are told. And Jeremy is a lawyer?

GB: Jeremy decided to read law at university yes, and er did very well and was then decided to do commercial law and worked for the European Bank from where he was headhunted and er was invited to join British Petroleum, which he is in now and seems to have survived pretty well in it, despite the things that have happened to the company he is still there, and is now doing the legal work for their lubricants, erm… I’ve forgotten the name - one of the...Castrol, that’s right. Castrol is part of the BP set up and he does legal work for them. I’m drying up now!!

SH: Well, lets…

GB: I was burbling on a bit I think, at that stage!

END OF RECORDING

SH & DH: No, that’s fine!