Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Sargent, Henry & Carmelia (O2002.4) |
| Interviewee | Henry and Carmelia (‘Cam’) Sargent (HS and CS) |
| Interviewer | Jean Riddell (Purkis) (JR) |
| Date | 11/01/2002 |
| Transcriber by | Mark Green |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O2002.4
Interviewee: Henry and Carmelia (‘Cam’) Sargent (HS and CS)
Venue: 20 Burnett Square, Sele Farm, Hertford
Date: 11th January 2002
Interviewer: Jean Riddell (Purkis) (JR)
Transcriber: Mark Green
Reviewed/revised by: Jean Riddell (Purkis)
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
JR: Friday the 11th of January 2002. JR here. I am just going to go to number 20 Burnett Square, Sele Farm, to interview Cam and Henry Sargent about being pioneers when the estate was built.
CS: I can turn that down, you know.
[Laughter]
JR: Yes. So, can I before we go on to talk about actually moving up here, where had you started married life at then?
CS: Newport in Essex. We lived with your mum for a little while.
JR: Oh, right because I had the feeling that you had some connections with Newport, Henry, but you never mentioned it, and I…
HS: Well…
JR: Snyway.
HS: We got married in Hertford, St John's Church. We moved out to Newport and anyhow we was only there for what, a couple of months?
CS: A couple of months, yeah, then we came, because we were going to buy a house in London and that’s why we went to live with his mum for a little while, then that all fell through didn't it? So, we came back to live in Hertford with my mum.
JR: So, your mum was in Hertford?
CS: Yes.
JR: and your mum was in, but was Newport your family home?
CS: No.
JR: Or did your mum move there later on?
HS: Later.
CS: We got engaged. We were engaged we moved there.
HS: I was born in London and well we moved around a bit, Highams Park, Walthamstow and then we finished up in Edmonton, and I had done most of my school days in Edmonton, and I worked in Edmonton until I went in the army at 18. Anyhow, when I came out of the army my father there he worked for Chaseside Engineering, motor engineering, and they moved out from Enfield to Hertford.
CS: Hoddesdon. Oh, Chaseside did, yes, I worked there.
HS: Chaseside to move to Hertford and so they moved to Hoddesdon. When I came out of the army, when I was demobbed, I had to find out where I lived [laughs].
JR: Right, I see, yeah.
HS: It was up right Crossfield Rd up Rye Road…
JR: I know where you mean, yes.
HS: …and when I got off the train, I had to ask the Porter where Crossfield Rd was [laughs].
JR: My next-door neighbour I think comes from Lilac Rd, that's nearby isn't it? Yes, yes. I know where you mean yes. Oh, right so that’s, then later they moved to Newport?
HS: Yes. She bought a…
CS: Drapers shop.
HS: …draper's shop in Newport and, when I was still single I went out there to live down there and anyhow we decided to get married and we lived there for a little while and then we came back to Hertford. To be quite honest there, we want to be honest there we, we didn't really as our family group, Cam and I, didn't really fit in there with mum’s family group sort of thing you know. Mum wanted to do the same kind of things she used to do when I was single and anyhow Cam…
JR: but looking after you.
HS: Yes, yes. Cam wanted to do that.
CS: I came home and said to my mum, you know, I’d like to, and my dad said well if you’re coming home, he's got to come too [laughs] so we came home.
JR: and where was home for you here?
HS: Hornsmill Rd.
CS: Hornsmill Rd opposite the glove factory. We lived in little house there. Then because we had got no children and Mum's house was requisitioned it had been requisitioned for the war, it belonged to McMullen. The council allocated our house, because we've got no children and they were, which was fair enough, they were housing all those who had come out of the forces that had got children, they said we could go with mum into that council house, so we moved with mum and it…
HS: ‘Cos you know where the glove factory was?
JR: Oh yes, yes, yes. yes.
CS: …and…
HS: And Hornsmill, Horns close, was just round the corner.
JR: Yes, yes.
CS: …and I mean, we couldn't get a house when I lived with my mum because there was a bedroom for Stephen but when we had Christine, Henry said ‘oh I will go and see one of the Councillors, find out why we haven't got a house’, and she was absolutely amazed that we hadn't got a house and she said ‘oh you're one of these couples who haven't gone down and made a fuss’.
JR: Ah.
CS: And then we got one, didn't we?
JR: So how long did it take to get one after that? ‘Cos it was easier…
HS: After I went down and had an interview with this councillor there, I got one within four weeks.
JR: Oh, that was it.
CS: Oh, it was lovely
JR: And that was this one?
HS: Yes.
CS: No. They offered us one in Thieves Lane but it was only two bedrooms, and they said do you want to take that and we thought we've got a boy and a girl and they're going to want separate rooms so we said, and they said well you might have to wait about a month, so we said we've waited this time we've waited a month, and it was quite funny when it came when we knew what house we had got and we eventually found the road, because there's no names and we ask somebody at the shops, and they said ‘now I don't know where that is love there's only this bit’. So we saw a postman and he said well there are some new houses right down the bottom where I've just been, he said you are going to have to walk across the fields. Now Calton Avenue was known as across the fields, so he said...
HS: From the shops across, well…
JR: Because the shops were there then, weren't they?
CS: I mean the shops, like with the paper shop and that, not the other ones **** and it was all up and down wasn't it and I said I don't like pushing pram over this and he said ‘oh you would have been better off bringing your pushchair up’ because I had got a pushchair for Christine. Anyway, we get down here and there are four houses. We walked down the alley and there was no garden, no topsoil, was there? I said ‘Oh dear’ anyway there was two houses occupied. Dora was still one of the first people, still there and we went and knocked at the door and we said ‘excuse us you couldn't tell us the number of your house’ [laughs].
We said ‘we've got number 20’ so she said ‘Well I'm 24 so next door must be 22’ and it was this one, anyway, we looked out the back garden. I said ‘it's not even finished off’ I said, and we get the key on Friday. Anyway, he said ‘looks alright’ he said ‘Oh’ he said, ‘let's say we'll have it’. Anyway, we got the key on the Friday and my mum’s next door neighbour and I we came up on the bus. They were near finishing off weren’t they and he said ‘oh you've got this house, love?’ so I said yeah, he said ‘come on in’ and they put top soil out there [laughs] and it looked alright. He said ‘I've got a tape measure to measure up your curtains’ I said yeah. Anyway, this workman measured all up for curtains, didn’t they? He said ‘Gor blimey, love, it’s gonna cost you a bomb’. But we got a nice cheap shop in Hertford then, hadn’t we? So, Rose and I went down ‘cos she said, ‘I’ll help you do ‘em’ and….
HS: That was our next-door neighbour in Hornsmill.
CS: …in Hornsmill, and we spent all that week making curtains everywhere [laughs] and here, because the kitchen was all down this end which they still are in a lot of houses, and we've got a deep butler sink with a wooden draining board, I mean this kitchen was out of the world to what my mum had I wasn’t in Hornsmill. A kitchen unit there and a great big pantry there.
JR: This is in this bit here. What was this bit, then?
HS: Well, from that doorway across…
CS: That was an outdoor shed.
HS: For coal, for coal.
CS: Coal, but we never used it for coal. Henry had bought another coal bunker and he had his workbench in there and the kids toys room in there, and an Ideal boiler which was great. You had a choice. I mean people after that have a cooker or a copper, and we’d already got a brand-new cooker, hadn’t we? And we had bought my mum a little small one because she only wanted a small one, so we bought a big brand new one, and we had a copper which went under the draining board.
JR: Was that an electric one?
CS: No, a gas copper.
JR: Well, I mean a movable copper was it, or?
CS: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
JR: Not a built in…?
CS: Oh, no, no, no, no, a proper, square copper and um…
HS: Cor, you're thinking about modern times ***and plumbed in [laughs]
JR: No, I'm thinking old…
CS: No, yeah, yeah, the old brick one like my mother had at Hornsmill.
HS: We had a brick one at Hornsmill.
JR: Yes. That was, that was in the Victorian wasn't it, one of these Victorian McMullen Houses yes,
Sorry.
CS: but as I say, you know, we thought it was great weren’t we but we’d got a kitchen unit here and it was only a little bit like that, and I said ‘ah, I'm not going to have to a scrub top there’ because Henry used to work away so he said next door Reg worked for well they did melamite and all that, so he gave us a bit and before he moved away he put a worktop up on for me, didn’t he, so I didn't have to scrub it, but as I say it was lovely.
JR: Can I just check
CS: Good, good, good.
JR: Ok. So…
CS: So, it was really nice and er…
JR: So, when you got the key on the Friday, did you move in that day or?
CS: The following week
JR: Oh. A week later.
CS: Yeah, yeah.
HS: Yes, well the thing is when we looked at it down there it was all, it was like a builders site here and anyhow, when we moved in, out the front there was all lovely black soil lovely. Out the back there, soil went halfway down but because you couldn't actually tell really which was your garden which wasn't your garden. Anyhow it wasn't ‘til we had been in about three weeks now, I thought to myself I will turn the front garden over there and I got a fork, went to turn it over and put, threw the fork into the soil, and it bounced out again. There was about an inch, an inch and a half of soil all over the top of the brick, builders rubble and anyhow I cleared enough bricks at the front here to build a little wall out the back.
JR: Oh, whole ones?
HS: Yes, whole ones.
CS: But there were no path, no garden paths, nothing under the windows and because the builders were all over there with everything, and they sort of you know were ever so helpful and that, and out sign out cars [?], didn't they?
JR: And you did say you knew the date, you said the date.
CS: 18th of May, because it was during, during the little girls’ birthday and
JR: 1950
CS: 7
JR: 7
HS: U-huh.
JR: Right.
CS: and because we all sat out there with birthday cake because this little girl kept saying when are we going to cut my birthday cake and we all sort of got together, and we had one terrible tragedy the first week, next door was a young girl she hadn't been married long got a little baby, she was 18, and the following Saturday her husband went to work to help someone out and he got killed at, on the level crossing, and I mean that sort of brought us all closer together to, didn’t it, that tragedy? But apart from that we've all been so happy up here. But then there was a thriving community centre which had just started round at where the…
HS: Saint John’s Court.
CS: St John’s, St John’s had a, they had got a hut there, we got involved with that, didn't we?
HS: Well the thing is that we've been in here about a fortnight, three weeks, and there was a knock on the door and there was two chaps. There was the Chairman of the Community Association and the Treasurer and they knocked to see whether we would be interested in joining the Community Association. They was having a grand opening the following week I think it was, they had just finished off the hut. Anyhow, we said yes we would be interested and we went right to the opening, we got involved in that, and I went on the committee. And we was doing work every weekend up there with the area all around and two of us got conned into building the toilets up there, and it's the same toilets that are up there now.
JR: This is the community centre in the Ridgeway?
CS: No…
HS: No, that's in Hawthorn Close where St John’s Ambulance.
JR: They are the same toilets there. Oh, I thought that was a new…
CS: It's a new hut but they incorporated…the Mead [?]
JR: Ok, yes.
HS: But they made it a little bit posher than we had it there. We only had bare bricks and everything else so, but anyhow we spent any number of weekends up there.
CS: And it was good because it got them, Woman’s Club which is still running. We started our own Toddlers Club up there, didn’t we because there were no nurseries or anything then. Mums used to go along and we used to take it in turns to make a cup of tea and it was just buns, just plain buns that mums had made and then as it got a bit more we had a Car Club, didn’t we, and we used to go out on car rallies. Some went on their motorbikes and side cars, some in their cars, and it was great fun until the professional ones came along and took over, and they wanted prizes and all this, that and other whereas we just did it and came back and had a cup of tea and all that.
HS: When it first started there with the Car Club we used to set off from the Community Association and we had a list of where we have got to go, and they might tell you to go up the Welwyn Road or up towards Stevenage there, turn left at Whitehall, or turn left at the…what was the Whitehall number now?
CS: 1212
HS: Turn left at one two, after one 1212, Whitehall 1212 and you saw Whitehall and then you knew to turn left and then you wandered in the countryside and turn left. That was alright for start, and then they started getting a bit technical, and you'd come up to a junction there, with a little island in the middle and you either go left or you could go round and you go straight on. And, anyhow I remember one you had to go right, right again and it brought you back the same way as you were coming. Some people thought well that must be wrong and because then they got hopelessly lost. Anyhow it was good fun and we always used to get back about what, 5 o'clock and have a cup of tea or something.
JR: Did you meet each other en-route then?
HS: Oh yeah
CS: Oh yeah, yeah. We had special places so if you got lost, you would make for the lunchtime, where you going to be for lunch. We did that once when we were going to Baldock, so we went
HS: Most of them were in the afternoon, it was just special ones that we're all day.
JR: Did you take the children with you?
CS: Oh yeah, yeah.
JR: The family.
CS: Oh, it was all family oriented.
HS: Oh yes.
CS: I mean we used to have trips to the seaside, didn't we, because a lot of people up here hadn’t got cars in those days, so they used to run coach trips to the seaside which was good and a lot of fun.
HS: Because in those days I mean people didn't have cars and they used to run trains down to, special excursions from Hertford North down to the seaside. I mean, they didn't used go on the east coast up North where the lines are going now, they used to go down through London and go to the South Coast as well. They had all these lines that they used to go round.
CS: Yes, a whole group of us used to get together and go on them which were great fun. And I mean it was as a Community Association that first started the Friday Youth Club and Youth Wing, so it was really thriving. So, you know, it's sad that it is not today but as I say everybody worked together and St Andrew’s School wasn't there, and Sele School wasn't there.
HS: No. One thing a good thing about the Community Association, we used to have meetings every month and they was more like political parties had surgeries nowadays where people could go and complain. You could, [coughs] excuse me, take your complaints there to the Community Centre and you would have a council representative come down and take the complaints.
JR: Oh there, yes, yes.
CS: It was great really.
JR: I see.
CS: I mean because one of the first year we were up here they had a circus over where the Community Centre is today, and Henry went along and took our two, next I know he's back, he said ‘I don't like the clowns’. [laughs].
JR: When did the Community Centre as we know it now when did that start up and why was that - what happened to the one at…
CS: Wasn’t big enough.
HS: It wasn't big enough there for…
CS: …all the things that we had got going on.
HS: So, they got a loan from the borough council and they built this one on the Ridgeway there and they sold that one there to…
CS: The St John’s **** [probably ambulance, but the recording is indistinct]
HS: So, I don't know what the financial deal was, and whether it was a lot I have no idea, but…
JR: When was that about?
HS: Oh, it’s…
CS: When they built the…
HS: Well, it is about 19, roundabout the early 70’s I should think.
JR: Oh right. Yes, yes.
HS: It might be a little bit before then you know.
JR: I mean that was, was that a community effort getting that?
CS: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
HS: Yes.
JR: I mean, although you got a grant, how did you get the rest of the money? Did you have to raise it by going round asking for it?
HS: We had a big membership in those days so we had funds coming in but, no I think with our funds and the grant there, because we had an interest free loan grant from the borough council to build it.
JR: Yes, and you had got money from the sale of, so that was sufficient to, perhaps, yes.
HS: I have to go upstairs.
JR: So what did you think about that new one then, was that…?
CS: Oh, it was great, it was great you know, they used to hold everything there, you know, always having socials there and children’s parties and bazaars at Christmas, it was really good.
JR: Did things change at all when you went there from how you'd known this this first one?
CS: No
JR: It was the same.
CS: It was the same people and, you know, as other ones, as people came onto the estate they would all sort of join in, and…
JR: Yes. Now when you first arrived what was the public transport up here like? Was there any?
CS: The week we arrived, the week before we arrived, the bus started coming up to the top of Bentley Rd. Prior to that it only went as far as the North Station.
JR: Oh.
CS: And people that, you know before us, could only go as far as the North Station.
JR: Oh, right.
CS: And then it came and that's where it started and it used to run every half hour, but it went all the way to Enfield so if there was hold ups, accidents or anything you had a long wait to wait but I nearly always walked everywhere because having one in the pushchair and that and both Christine and David, Stephen were good walkers. I mean by the time I had David, the other two, Stephen was at school and Christine was turned 3 and she liked to walk, so we used to walk.
JR: So where do they go to school? ‘Cos…
CS: The Catholic school.
JR: St. Joseph’s.
CS: St Joseph’s.
JR: So that was built by then, was it?
CS: Three classes were built when Stephen started there, three classes were still there when Christine started, so by the time they got out of those three classes they used to have to go down to the old school at St John’s Street, and by the time David got to that stage the whole school was finished. And there used to be a load of mums and we used to do a crocodile, didn’t we, and we all took it in turns and took the children down so no child went on its own, and then because the Cemetery was shut…
HS: the modern trend, the modern trend is a walking bus.
JR: Ridiculous, isn't it?
HS: Parents, parents used to take them. They had their own little rota.
CS: Those that were lucky enough to have a car, Dad had to use it to get to work. So, we used to walk down in a rota and pick children up on the way as you went, sort of two or three and then when you got down to, if the cemetery gates were closed you couldn't walk through there, and that bit that you walk through in North Rd, you know, with a little wall, that wasn't there. You used to have to cross the road and the parents that went down to the school petitioned to Council to get one, and then they built us that little pathway so we didn't have to cross the road or walk in the road.
JR: So that pathway was once in the cemetery itself, was it?
CS: Yes.
JR: Yes, yes, I thought that because the wall matches the wall going up on the other side, doesn’t it?
CS: Yep, yeah, yep.
JR: Oh, right. So, you kept quite healthy and fit by all this walking down to…
CS: Yeah, but I was a big lady then wasn't I? I'm slimmer today than I was when I got married [laughs].
HS: The thing was that the Griffin public house wasn't built then, and… [The Griffin, now called the Golden Griffin is a McMullen’s pub opened in 1957]
CS: It was built when we moved up here.
HS: It was not.
CS: Wasn't it?
HS: No.
CS: Oh, I thought it was.
HS: If you remember rightly there, when my friends there from Tottenham came, he had to walk down to the White Horse.
CS: Oh, not the Sele Arms? [The Sele Arms was on the North Road opposite Hertford North Station and was renamed the Bridge Arms. It closed in January 2015].
HS: No, he went down to the White Horse.
JR: Hertingfordbury?
HS: Hertingfordbury. Well it's either Hertingfordbury the White Horse in Hertingfordbury, or down to the Sele Arms.
JR: About the same distance.
HR: And there was also the Mayflower as well, but anyhow, you had to walk down if you wanted any alcohol you had to walk down there.
JR: And that Thieves Lane then…
HS: Was a little windy lane. If the traffic was coming up one way, you couldn't overtake, you couldn't come up other way you had to go into laybys.
JR: Yes. Just one. When you came up from Hertingfordbury up that road, could you carry on over the Welwyn Rd down by the side of what is now Calton?
HS: No.
CS: No.
JR: You couldn't.
CS: Because once they built the estate…
HS: That was only a footpath.
CS: Footpath.
JR: Could you walk there or?
HS: I don't, I don’t remember ever being able to walk across there.
CS: No, no.
JR: Because once that must have been a little lane that run straight down to the Bramfield Rd.
HS: Well it did, it did, it did it go straight but they diverted, I think they diverted the footpath when they built Windsor Drive.
JR: Okay right.
HS: Because the footpath as it is now runs behind Windsor Drive and…
JR: Yes, it does. But parallel to it.
CS: Yes.
JR: Yes.
HS: So, I think I don't really know that, but…
CS: but Thieves Lane used to go right through to that Windy Ridge Farm, up by Kirk [?] Rd
JR: Can you explain, again, I think you might have touched on it. When you were first here, the shops, one terrace of shops was here, and you said you walked across…
CS: Towards Calton Avenue.
JR: Yes, so as the crow flies where did you walk exactly?
HS: We walked across diagonally there, from the shops in a straight line because if you can picture Windsor Drive, there were no houses behind Windsor Drive right through to the fields, right out, there was nothing at all and you walked across there, there was an entrance there for Calton Avenue because it was sometime later there that the people in Calton Avenue all bought…
CS: Plots of land.
HS: …plots, their own plots of land and built their own houses so they went up one at a time. You either walked from the shops across the fields or you could go along Windsor Drive and when we turn down to Bentley Rd where the bus stop is now, that was the finish of the made up road and then you used to walk from there down Bentley Rd, and none of the roads were made up, and when we first came up here the buses didn't come up here at all they turned round at Hertford North Station.
CS: Now, that the week we moved up here they came because I caught a bus up here all the way it was three ha’pence.
HS: I know it wasn’t up when I first came up here but…
JR: And Cam you were saying before I put the tape on that the postman approached the properties from the back.
CS: Yes, because those houses there weren't built. The ones there were, that block, but this block here weren’t. So you used to come across here, and Nell and I and Sheila were having a cup of tea and he said ‘it's about time they put numbers on these doors’ [laughs] I can remember Nell saying to him ‘well, postman, when it's all finished you got to go all the way round there because these are the back doors’ [laughs] and I won't tell you what the postman said.
JR: Yes, yes. Did you find it inconvenient with all the inevitable builders’ lorries and…?
CS: Not so much the builders lorries it was nothing was secure, and we got Andrew next door who was four, Steven who was three and Janice who was two and a half, and they used to follow each other around and play. And one Saturday Andrew fell down a trench that they were building over…
HS: Just out the back here, wasn’t it, where the sewer runs.
CS: …and Reg was the only one with a vehicle he had a van, so he takes his boy and in the meantime my Stephen..
End of tape 1 Side 1
JR: Just to reiterate a little bit. So, both of these boys fell down this trench…
CS: Trench. One of them had to go to County Hospital for stitching and in the meantime this little girl fell down the same trench. So, as Reg went to get out of the car with Stephen she said get back in Reg, there's Janice. He took the little girl to the hospital and the Sister at the hospital said ‘Oh no, not another one, just name and number’ because he’d had three and when Henry came up from work, because he worked on Saturday mornings then, he was furious so he got onto the Council and they said your children shouldn’t be roaming around, and Henry said until you put fences up, and gates, how do you stop children roaming around? And a few weeks after that Stephen got cement thrown in his eyes, didn’t he?
HS: Just opposite, where the old peoples bungalows are, there used to be a shed that we used to store cement, bags of cement, and they never used to lock it up, ‘cos the young children there always went roaming and looked inside because you know what kids are like, they see cement there, they threw it up in the air and of course Stephen got cement in his eyes. So, we had to rush him down to the Hospital there, to get them washed out. Well we didn't rush him down did we, it was when I came back from work and he was rubbing his eyes, so I took him down. They were, they was very good down the Hospital there in those days, and they washed his eyes out and they said there that they should be alright in the morning. He had drops and everything. But the children there had nothing to, I mean, nowadays you get a building site, you have a fence round everywhere, you can't get in the building site at all. It is all open here. They could go anywhere in the houses that were partly built. I know that down the bottom they was, got these houses half-built and…
CS: It was Tony who got up there, our nephew.
HS: Anyhow, one of the children there got up the top there and couldn't get down There was no proper stairway. Got up the ladder, no floorboard.
CS: And my neighbour went after him and all of a sudden we heard her shouting, she said ‘I can't get down’. I had to go all around the estate, well this bit of the estate to find a workman, and he came swearing because a lady got up there, anyway he helped get her down and, after that they did start putting ladders and out of the way so that…
HS: Well, the thing is that so there, there was no real safety regulations in those days, they'd leave ladders around and anything.
CS: As I say, after that it was, ‘cos the trouble was you didn't have just one builder, building the sets of houses, one would be on one set and somebody else…
JR: Oh, different builders where they?
CS: Oh, yea, yeah, lots of different builders.
JR: So how long did the whole place take to finish, then? Must have been at least 10 years, wasn’t it?
HS: It must have been.
CS: It must have been. And then, I mean in little pockets they started, like they built like Calton House because they were going to build a church there for all denominations, weren't they?
HS: Yes, where Calton House is, that was designated for Saint Andrews church to build a church.
CS: A church that all denominations could use.
HS: No, no, St. John.
CS: ****
HS: No, Saint Andrews church so, no, no, no.
CS: Let everybody going to use it.
HS: No, and then it, they didn't want to take it up, it was too expensive to build a church there which I can understand.
CS: Yes.
HS: and then they was going to build a six storey block of flats and anyhow, all the people all around here were up in arms about the flats that high, you know, and the Community Association then invited the Chairman of the Housing Committee to come down and explain it and they had an open meeting at the community centre, and the community centre was packed, couldn't get no more people in there.
JR: And this was still at St. Johns?
HS: Yes, anyhow we was all there waiting for him to come. He never turned up, he sent the Vice-Chairman instead, and I think he thought he was going to be lynched. He might have been, the feelings at the time and anyhow…
JR: Do you want to name this man or not? [laughs]
HS: Yes, I can name this, what the?
JR: Well, either of them.
HS: Either of them there. I can't remember who the Chairman was, but I know, I know he was a Conservative Chairman because they were all Conservative but the Deputy Chairman there was a Labour one, and he didn't agree with this block of flats but as Vice-Chairman he had to come down and support the Council and, what was his name, he was down Hertingfordbury Road…
CS: Not Reg Carter?
HS: Yeah, Reg Carter.
JR: Oh him, yes, yes. Oh.
HS: And, I know that he stopped all the Vice-Chairman there from being in other parties, all the other parties decided there and then they wasn’t going to be Vice-Chairman because they wasn't going to take the flak for the Conservative Council.
JR: Oh, right I see.
HS: Well, anyhow they got shelved that block, because it would be overlooking all the private houses down Calton Ave of course.
CS: Carde close.
HS: Calton Avenue, all that area there is all private, all Calton Avenue, Carde Close and…
CS: Part of Edmunds Road.
HS: Edmunds Rd, well, it is all of Edmunds Rd there because, the other part hadn't been built on then.
CS: No.
JR: No. But Norwood Close that was council estate.
CS: That's all council.
HS: That's council, yes, but it wasn't built then.
JR: No, no.
HS: Because Edmunds, Edmunds Rd that was a housing…
CS: Syndicate, they all got together and built their own.
HS: They, they bought the land as a housing syndicate and they came down here every weekend and was building the houses themselves.
JR: Yes.
CS: They were the best built houses on this estate.
HS: Oh, yes well, they built them there to their specification, didn't they?
JR: Did the other, the people in Carde Close do the same? ‘Cos there…
HS: Yes.
CS: No. Well, they didn't build them themselves…
HS: No, but they all had their own plots.
CS: …all had their own plots.
JR: Because they are quite distinctive, aren't they?
CS: Yeah. They all had their own plots.
JR: Yes.
HS: ‘Cos you take all those houses, most of those houses except when you get down to halfway down Calton Avenue and they was all built by…
CS: Simson Pimms built some.
HS: Simson Pimms. Those houses all look the same, you know from halfway just round the bend until you get to the school, they're all the same aren't they, and some on the other side of the road are the same as well.
CS: They were built by Simson Pimms and…
JR: For the?
CS: For their workers.
HS: For the workers.
JR: For the workers, oh, I didn’t know that.
CS: And then, when they curled up they offered them to some of the workers. Some bought them, some didn't.
JR: So, a variety of building ideas.
HS: I mean….
CS: I mean even with the council houses on this estate there are so many different designs of them, not all the same.
HS: Going back to Calton Avenue. If you notice there are some big houses the other side of, well the corner of Carde Close and farther down there a couple of big houses, they was police houses, and they was police inspectors, officers and the other parts of the estate had only had police houses there for other ranks. But one by one they all went, because we have no, at that time a presence of police up on the estate, and it was a controlling factor used to keep things in order.
JR: So, had they attached one of these houses, was this some kind of little office or?
HS: No, no, no, it was their house.
CS: No, it was their houses.
HS: It was their house but, being a policeman, they had some sort of control.
CS: If anybody started, oh the police up here you know…
JR: And put them off. What was it like then in the early days, did you meet any problems?
HS: The thing is there….
CS: We got broken into, didn't we? Quite a few did.
HS: Yes, but on the whole generally there, law and order was fairly good. We always had a little pocket of people there that used to be troublemakers there but, one by one these little pockets were all ironed out and as soon as they settle down on the estate they was okay. And of course there out the back here was all fields and children used to go and play in the fields, and then the Council bought that land over the back where the Ridgeway is, and they built those flats over there, and in one sweep they cut their housing waiting list right out.
CS: Yes, but that was alright when it was in the Borough days, wasn't it?
HS: Yes, I'm not talking about what it was, they cut the housing waiting list out, right out in one go. It was a very good, good thing. And as houses become vacant in the other parts of the town, they could apply for transfers to go out to other houses, and that used to work very well. The people in the Ridgeway there used to live quite well, they was all respectable, respectable working class people you know, and I say it now the majority are still respectable people, but when the District took over, they brought people in and they made a homeless block in the Ridgeway, and that was when the rot set in there, and really there we tried to get rid of the Ridgeway completely when I was on the Council.
We even wanted to change the name but there were some people in the private houses in the Ridgeway, they didn't want to alter their letterhead and they wanted the Ridgeway. So the Ridgeway stuck but, all blocks had different names, so your address went on a block and if you notice when you go round the Ridgeway they've all got different names, and so it isolates them away from the Ridgeway, because people didn't want to go on the Ridgeway there because of the name. No, it was a shame there but the Council put a homeless block in there for the first time. I know people have got to live somewhere, but to have so many people in one block and I can understand it if it was in this area but it wasn't, it was all over East Herts, and what happened there was you got the undesirables there all thrown into this one block, and as you know you only want one or two people there to makes things uncomfortable.
Then nobody is content there then. They used to be all content over there. It is a pity it changed but there you are. But as I say there, now they've knocked a lot of these flats down over there and got houses over there, separate houses with their own little area, which they can call their own fenced in. It has changed completely. I don't say it's perfect over there, but it has changed. The little roads there are quite nice, the roads they have got there because it was small houses with their own gardens, but they got turned down.
JR: They couldn't house as many, could they?
HS: Because going back to the Community Association, that's when I first got involved there with committee meetings. I was on the committee and…
JR: And you were working for?
CS: William Press in those days.
HS: William Press construction industries and we used to have to travel up and down the country, and I was Chairman for about six months. I had to resign because when we first came up.
JR: Was Sylvia Mear part of that, then or?
CS: She was just an ordinary committee member.
HS: She was a committee member, yes.
CS: She was good actually, very good. Her and Don. Old Don was involved then, wasn't he?
HS: Yes, well the thing is here, you had all the butcher what was the butchers name?
CS: Well. There was the Lawtons, or Ayers.
HS: Ayers. He was a manager of a butcher shop down the town, he was Chairman when we first joined it.
CS: Bill Adnam was [this may be Adam, Adnan or even Eyre rather than Adnam]. The police sergeant. [George Hills]
HS: Oh, Hills.
CS: Sergeant Hills, he was.
HS: Sergeant Hills.
JR: That’s Linda’s father, isn't it?
CS: Yep, yes.
JR: yes
HS: Oh, it's quite a nice…
CS: Mrs Titmarsh she was, because it was her and her, she was with us when we started up the Youth Club, wasn't she?
JR: Does she still live up here?
CS: Yes, Tudor Way.
JR: Yes, I have been to see her. Win, isn't it?
CS: Yep, that's right.
JR: Oh, she was involved as well.
CS: Yes.
HS: Well, we, we had a Youth Club in the Community Centre there but it was not ideal for Youth Club over there, and when Sele School was built we applied to have a Youth Club in the youth wing, and we got the Friday night, Club. Now that Club there was for anybody that didn't attend Sele School because the other clubs, from Mondays to Fridays, they were all Sele School pupils, so on the Friday night we opened this club there for people not attending Sele School.
CS: We did have a lot that went to Sele School.
HS: But, oh yes, I mean, it wasn't, it was for everybody there those who didn't go to Sele School.
JR: As well as those that did.
CS: Yes.
JR: So, they could join in, the Seles School. Would they, when that youth wing was built, it was built at the same time as the School.
CS: Yep.
JR: For what purpose, for after school activities?
HS: Yes.
JR: Okay, right.
HS: And they had a grant from the Association, what were they called…the Association of Youth Clubs or something like that, they used to have an office
CS: In Ware, ‘cos Bob Newton
HS: No, their offices there were at Hatfield.
CS: Oh yes, that's right.
HS: Opposite the police station in Hatfield.
JR: Yes.
CS: That was fun, that was. I mean I was on the Committee there and…
HS: Because we was all members of the Youth Club. I was leader there for quite some time, and then the County Council decided that the youth leaders there should be qualified and have a degree. Their conditions there was only more or less only teachers there could be youth leaders but so…
JR: But they didn't want to be after a day's teaching [laughs]
HS: No, no, no. Well, the thing is but they got paid.
JR: Oh, right.
HS: They got paid for a youth leader, we was all voluntary, we done it for nothing.
JR: I was going to say, on the other days of the week when Sele pupils were using it who was leading them?
CS: We don't know.
HS: Well, it was teachers.
JR: Teachers, right.
CS: Because I mean I know on Friday, two boys helped me set up, and the two boys were playing billiards. Mr Maxwell walked in and he said ‘What are those boys doing there, Mrs Sargent?’ I said ‘playing billiards’ [laughs] so he said ‘I just asked you what they are doing here’ and I said ‘I told you, playing billiards’. He shrugged his shoulders and went out, the boys were all laughing, so I said just a minute boys why did Mr Maxwell say that?
So, these two boys, they were honest, they said ‘well, we have been banned from the School Youth Club’. ‘Oh’, I said ‘have you’. I said will you behave yourself tonight otherwise you know what our ruling is, they were always banned for two weeks weren’t they, if they didn't do what they should, and they didn't have to come and see the helpers they had to go and see the Leader. It was up to the Leader whether they came back, but you know those two boys were as good as gold. And he said ‘Oh, well, it is so different here, you are not teachers.’
JR: Yes, I see, so that…
HS: Well, the thing is that what we use to arrange there, that’s…they could have music, their own music, they could sit down and listen to the music if they wanted to. They had easy chairs or they could go into the games room which we had at the far end and along a bit, and they could…
JR: Go into the quiet room and…
HS: We had a quiet room then, because the quiet room was where the offices are now, anyhow it was a nice, nice atmosphere. The children there wanted to relax and listen to music. The television if you sit in the house, and the television was on, you was told to be quiet but there they wanted to chat and they used to sit there and perhaps chat for two or three hours.
CS: And I used to take all the magazines and put them on the bar, one of them used to come and help me make coffee and they turned to the problem pages, and I'll end up with them all sitting around the bar and we used to discuss literally everything that they couldn't discuss with their mums. And one day the Youth Leader come in and he said, ‘do you know what, you do a better job with these children then any of the trained…’ because I spoke to ‘em. It was great, weren't it?
HS: He was the tutor, the Youth Leader there from Ware College, Newton.
CS: Bob Newton.
HS: Bob Newton.
CS: As I say they, I got on ever so well with the kids up there, especially the motorbike lot. They were great, weren't they?
HS: Well, they used to have a motorbike crowd, and they was in the Hall next to St. Andrew’s Church there used to be a hall there. They took over this hall for their Youth Club. They had a club, a motorcycle club, and there was all people there around about between 16 and 30 that sort of thing, and they had a thriving club there, they used to take motorbikes in there and strip them down.
CS: And its St. Andrew’s, old St. Andrew’s School it was.
HS: It was St. Andrew’s school, yes.
JR: Oh, yes, ‘cos that, when I first moved here there were remnants of that still there, yes, yes.
HS: Anyhow, we had close contact with them and some of the lads used to come to the Youth Club because as long as you was a member when you was 14, you could stay on until you was 18. You couldn't come and join the club at 17, but you could carry on until you was 18. Anyhow, she was in the town one day and there was a crowd of them coming down…
CS: And I had just had me hair done, and it was the time when I decided not to have any more colour just let it go natural, and they came up ‘Mrs Sargent, where did you get them highlights’ I said ‘nature is wonderful.’ I was there with all these boys with their leather jackets round me and some woman came up and said ‘are you alright?’ I said ‘Of course I'm alright’ they obviously thought a load of boys with leather jackets and their helmets and *** but they were the nicest boys going, weren't they?
HS: One day, one day was up the Youth Club and the chap who ran the Youth Club, motorcycle club, down St. Andrew’s School, he came up and he said ‘I have been told’ he said ‘there's a crowd of motorcyclists coming over from Harlow’ he said, they have been round the area causing trouble. He said ‘I don't know what you're going to do’ and I said ‘Well, they won't be allowed in here.’ Anyhow, I told my Deputy Leader and I said if they do come up, I said I will go outside and you can lock the door behind me. Don't let them in whatever happens. I said if there is any real trouble, phone the police.
Anyhow, I stood outside there. I heard a roar, they came up, they came up the Hill and there was about 20 of them and they all went round into the Griffon car park, park there, and they walked across the road. Anyhow, I was outside. By then the doors was locked. They came to go in. I said ‘What do you want’ ‘Going in the Youth Club.’ I said ‘No, you're not members. ‘We're going in, we want to see somebody.’ I said ‘No, you're not members’ I said ‘and you are not welcome’ and they all crowded round me, round that entrance, and I thought to myself good God what have I let myself in for. But anyhow, I couldn't back out. I had to, I had to say that they couldn't come in and be determined and then all of a sudden a voice from the back there said ‘are you alright Mr Sargent? Are you having problems?’ I said ‘No, not real problems’ I said, ‘they are not members of this Youth Club and I said they are not welcome’. ‘Right-oh’. There were two policemen at the back there ‘off you go’ and of course they all went off [laughs] with their tails between their legs and when I went back into the youth wing there was a big cheer. [Laughs]
CS: There was somebody there ready to open the door and pull him in if there was trouble, but you know.
JR: But these two had come up quietly, had they, from somewhere, these policemen?
HS: Yes. I didn't know they was there. I didn't know they was there. They must have been round the back of the Youth Wing.
CS: Oh, they were quite good kids, weren't they?
JR: Yes.
HS: Anyhow, saved my day, they was there when I wanted them. I should imagine now that the motorcycle leader from down the St. Andrew’s School there, he must have notified the police.
JR: Yes. Did they call on him first then? Or…
HS: No, they never came down to the motorcycle club.
JR: They didn’t.
HS: No, they’d be too much problem there if they went down, because they were all around about the same age as the people there who came up because they were, I mean, roundabout 18, you know, all got these motorbikes and they had leathers, you know, Jack the lads.
JR: Yes. yes. Wasn’t, was he, the one down at St. Andrew’s Church wasn't he a chap who actually taught them how to maintain…
CS: Yes, yeah.
HS: Oh yes, they had the motorbikes and they used to pull them apart but there was no oil on the floor or anything, it was spotless in there. I mean, any garage there would be proud to have a workshop like they had there. No and everything was cleared up before they went out.
JR: One of the people I got to know when I first moved here lived in those cottages next to St. Andrews School, she spoke highly of this man, whose name I can't remember, occupying these lads with constructive work.
CS: They were good, I mean the ones that did come to Sele Youth Club they always helped with the washing up or make the coffee, wouldn’t they? Help you clear up, they were all good like…
JR: Yes.
HS: I think, I think the lads are, if you treat them right well, and girls, treat them right, I think they respect you for it.
JR: Yes, yes. How long were you actually leading this Group then, before you had to…
CS: Quite a few years, weren’t we? We must have been because I mean, Nicky met Joy there didn’t he?
HS: I should say that I was Leader for about…
CS: A good five, six years.
HS: If not longer.
CS: Yeah.
End of tape 1 side 2
HS: Now the Committee, the Youth Club Committee, the Management Committee there we had two Councillors involved then, and the Committee used to have, take it in turns there for a rota there to come to the Youth Club and for behind the bar and general organising, and we had George Stoughton and, who was the other chap, O'Connor.
JR: Des.
HS: Des O'Connor.
JR: He was up here as well, he seemed to be quite prominent everywhere that man, didn't he?
HS: Oh yes, he was a good politician [laughs]. Give him credit for that. And there were, and we had quite a number of people there who came with us from Sele Farm Community Association and we had a thriving Committee, and we used to keep things going that way we have a bar and we used to get drinks and everything else for the bar, and crisps and all the normal sort of things.
JR: For the young ones, yes, yes.
HS: Because every now and again we used to have guest speakers come in and used to take them into the quiet room, and we had a makeup artist come once for the girls, the boys were more interested than the girls [laughs].
JR: Really?
HS: Yes, they came in and watched! [Laughs]
JR: Well, that's good isn't it? Yes, it sounds as though it was a really good going concern.
HS: Oh, it was very…
JR: I mean I can understand why people say what they say now, about things were better in…
HS: Oh, yes because the thing is that, I mean people there had waited years to have a house and then suddenly to have a house in Sele Farm, and they was all nice houses well, they still are nice houses and people used to take pride. Gardens there, because in those days which they, the present laws, the European laws and everything else we can't carry them out, they had an inspection every year came round and inspected gardens and inside houses, and if your house wasn't up to specifications with decorating, or it wasn't cultivated your garden, you used to get a notice.
JR: This is because they were rented, isn't it, and they had to make sure that their properties were being properly maintained.
HS: But anyhow, they’d give you a month to get it right otherwise you got notice to quit. Apparently you can't do that nowadays, because there was possibility of getting more private accommodation in the town then but it is like it is nowadays, getting expensive.
JR: I did want to ask you a specific question about the houses. If you go into Cherry Tree Green, which I believe was the first…
CS: They were the first.
JR: And there's a lady living in Calton Court who I really want to go and see about that, there is one house there which looks as though it’s in the original state. How do they refurbish these, were they all like that at one time?
HS: Yes, they was all like that.
CS: These weren’t.
HS: They were Airey…
CS: They were called Airey type houses.
HS: Airey houses. [An Airey house is a type of prefabricated house built in Great Britain following the Second World War. They were designed by Sir Edwin Airey and used prefabricated concrete].
CS: Concrete.
JR: Oh, they are Airey houses, are they?
3HS: And they propped them, and took the concrete posts and everything out, and built a brick house around them.
JR: So, all those houses with those new brick facias really, well not facias, facades or whatever you call them, were originally Airey houses and the Airey houses encased in…
HS: Well, the thing is what happened.
CS: You know what she's thinking about the one that’s not done.
HS: Yes, I am going to tell her that…
JR: Yes, I was…
HS: The one that's not done, they was doing, they were refurbishing all those Airey houses. The person there that lived in that house had bought it…
JR: Yes, I guessed that, actually.
HS: …and bought it for a ridiculously low price and anyhow, they said is the ‘Council is going to do ours free?’ and they said ‘No, you bought the house but, while we doing all the houses there, we’ll do yours at the same price as it cost us to do these. So you would have to increase your mortgage to pay for it.’ They said ‘Oh no, you sold us that house.’ ‘Ah, but you knew full well what the house was, you had your own surveyors in and everything else.’ Anyhow they agreed to give them, to them at a special price, and some of those people who did buy their houses…
CS: They did have them done.
HS: …they had them done, because it's the only one in the Square, in the Green, that's not been done. But they stuck out and thought there that if they stick out long enough, they would have to do theirs but the Council hadn't done them.
JR: So, they're going to find that more difficult to sell on, aren't they?
HS: Oh, yes, it's not sellable.
JR: It's not.
HS: Well it's sellable at a ridiculously low price, because nobody is going to buy that house and have to spend a lot of money there building.
CS: Because there are four of the houses that were bought down, Tudor Way and the Council did theirs for them and they were thrilled to bits a what the Council did.
HS: Well, it's they just thought they were going to get something for nothing.
JR: Did that happen in Hawthorn Close? Are they the same?
HS: Yes.
CS: Yes, they were the same. A lot of people have bought theirs, and they were all willing to have it done by the Council.
HS: The thing is that the Council sold them there at a very cheap price, and they wasn't going to if they had done the repairs, what the other houses had done, they would have given them the house because the money there that it cost to repair it would be more there than they charged for the house. It might have sounded hard to them but if you buy a house, you buy the property as you see it, don’t cha.
JR: Well any improvement is a kind of investment, isn't it?
CS: Of course it is.
HS: Well, it must have been an investment because, I don’t know what the houses was but, with a bit of discount on them I suppose they wouldn't have been much more than £10,000. I'm only guessing on that but okay so a lot of these houses they went, these houses they went round £22,000 I think it was, and then you got a discount for the time that you lived in them, so it was quite cheap.
JR: And that was in what in what kind of era?
CS: Well, when we first applied to buy this, when you had that…
HS: She wants to know when it was we bought it, but
CS: When I worked at…um…
JR: Oh, it doesn't matter.
HS: Around about… I don't know but I know I went into the Housing Office, and this woman she was a Housing Officer and she said ‘I'm surprised you don't buy your house’ and I said ‘well, for a start I'm too old, I won't get a mortgage. She said ‘I'm sure a 25 year mortgage’, I said ‘yes, but I will be an old age pensioner drawing me pension before that is paid off’ but she said ‘it makes no difference, you see, you can have a 25 year mortgage if you want one’. So I came home and told Cam about it, and she said well, I think it would be a good investment because at that time they were asking people if they would move out of a 3 bedroom house and go into smaller houses when their family got reduced, and she said I don't want to move out of here. So, we went through it there, we bought this house. Up to then, I was against selling houses.
CS: That's the only thing we've ever really rowed over because I wanted it for years and years before that.
HS: Well, we didn't row but we had our disagreements.
JR: Well, there was a principle at stake here, rather than…
CS: You and your…[laughs]
HS: Well, we was going to buy it in the Borough days and
CS: You had an accident.
HS: I had an accident.
JR: Were they for sale then?
CS: Yes.
HS: They had one period when you could buy houses. The Council wanted some money, and they had one period when you could buy the houses, and these were going for…
CS: £2,500 pounds.
HS: £1,500.
CS: It was that…
HS: That was when it was first, the first time £1,500. And anyhow I had an accident and I was off work for six months and of course that fell through, and by the time I got back to work again the offer had gone.
JR: Right. So, did many people buy them at that time?
HS: Oh yes.
CS: Quite a few did.
JR: Oh, so that’s…
HS: It is not the, wasn't Maggie Thatcher sell off there, there was one here before that, in the Borough days.
JR: Yes, I didn't know. I didn’t know they would be allowed to do that. Could they make that decision themselves then?
HR: Apparently so.
CS: And quite a few people bought them and then moved on, didn't they?
HS: I know one chap who lived just round the corner, just round the corner here, they bought their house and then they sold it and they bought a larger house, and they started moving into a bigger places…
JR: Up the ladder
HS: That was a time there when houses were going up in price, you know. I can always remember a chap there I was working with bought a house there for £5,000 pounds.
CS: Oh, that was…
HS: £5,000 pounds, we thought [sucks in his breath] that's a lot of money, that’s a lot of money, but it's peanuts nowadays, isn't it?
JR: Oh, yes, yes. You can't even get a car for that, can you?
CS: No, no, no.
JR: Well, I wonder whether I ought to just start, if not carry on too long, because obviously you are getting a bit weary now but you implied, a bit earlier on I thought, perhaps you didn’t, that being on the Committee of the Community Centre then let you into being a Councillor.
HS: Not exactly but, that was when I first started doing committee work.
CS: It was Sammy Edgar that got you involved.
HS: No, the thing. I, Sammy Edgar there, I used to be friends with him.
JR: And what was he, was he a councillor?
HS: No, no. We was friends, we used to, in those days we used to go and on a Sunday dinner time for a drink up the Griffin. And he said I've joined the Labour Party. I said ‘Oh, have you?’ So, he said yes, because we had always talked about politics and one thing and another at the Griffin, and he said ‘why don't you come down, join.’ ‘I don't know.’ He said it’s on Tuesday. I will come round and will go down there together and anyway, we went down there, and we joined the Labour Party and that was held in the, what's the name of that pub that was held in, in the centre of the town where the fountain is now.
CS: The White Hart
HS: The White Hart. Used to be in a room upstairs and I joined the Labour Party, and I was a little bit of a rebel then and I used to argue there at meetings. The next thing I know, two there was Harold Mills…
JR: Yes, who was part of it at that time?
CS: Jack, Jack Gillan.
HS: There was Jock Gillan, Harold Mills, Reg Carter.
JR: Was Bob part of it then, or was it after he had retired?
HS: After, after he'd retired. He wouldn't take an active part in politics.
JR: No, I guessed he wouldn’t.
CS: No, not whilst he was chief.
JR: No, I guess not.
HS: The chaps on the, in the party at the moment Councillor.
JR: John Foster?
HS: No, lives in Bengeo.
CS: Tony Bodley.
JR: Oh, he was around then.
HS: Yes, been around a long time, Tony.
JR: Yes, I, go on anyway.
HS: Anyhow, Harold Mills and Reg Carter knocked at the door one day and I said ‘Oh hello, what have I done wrong now’. ‘You have done nothing wrong’ because once I had to apologise to the Chairman there because he said I was being rude to him, because I was…
JR: Who was that, then?
HS: Lived in Mandeville Rd, his wife, his wife was a teacher at Hollybush .
CS: Oh, Dick Henderson.
HS: No, I can't think of his…
CS: Oh, I know, I know, oh, what's her name?
JR: Not Derek Peasey?
HS: No.
CS: No, no, no, no, no.
HS: Anyhow, I said well come in. So, I said what do I owe this pleasure for then? So, he said well we come round to ask whether you’d think about being a councillor, and I've never given it a thought up until then. So I said, me a councillor? Yes, he said, I think you would make a good councillor, you know, the usual blarney, you know, praise people up there to get them to stand [laughs]. Anyhow, I said well I don't know. He said well I will give you a chance to think about it. Anyhow Cam and I spoke about it, she said well it is up to you, if you want to go for it, go for it. And of course, then I stood there for councillor, and I stood seven different elections before I got on the Council. I stood seven times. That was seven years that was, because we used to have elections every year in those days, anyhow I once nearly got in, but…
CS: Wanted 10 more votes
HS: No.
CS: Or was it 7? It was 10.
HS: Anyhow, it was only a few votes, but anyhow
JR: Did you always stand for up here?
HS: Oh no, I nearly got in for Kingsmead once, it wasn't called Kingsmead then, was it?
CS: It was All Saints.
HS: All Saints.
JR: Yes.
HS: And I nearly got elected there one year, and then I stood up here against Des O'Connor.
JR: He was up here.
HS: Yes.
JR: Yes.
HS: Because this was a strong Tory seat, this up here. Always had a, always had Tory Councillors. Anyhow, George Stoten was up here as a Councillor. I stood against Des O'Connor one year.
CS: That was the year you nearly got it in.
HS: I nearly got in with him, because his wife there was crying, and Cam said what are you crying for?
CS: I thought the pool girl was ill.
JR: What was she crying for?
HS: She thought Des was going to lose the election. Anyhow, it was a very close run it was and then the following year I got elected. I got elected…
JR: Here?
CS: Colin Blanchard.
HS: Colin Blanchard.
JR: Okay.
HS: And I have been cursed with it ever since [laughs] until I retired a couple of years ago.
JR: Who were the most, I mean, notable people in your memory, as you went through from the beginning? Who did you get on well with, who did you…?
HS: Well, I got on well with Colin Blanchard and…
CS: Well you still do with Colin and Rita, don't we?
HS: …and then there was a byelection and Sammy Edgar got elected and there were three of us there were friends, but we had a, never did get near to any majority at all and so we was always the underdogs, but I enjoyed the Council while I was on there.
JR: When you were first elected was the balance like, Tory, Labour?
CS: In your Borough days.
HS: I think it was six Labour out of fifteen
CS: When you got on your own though, there was only you at one time, you got on
JR: Oh, really, yes, was that at the very beginning that was later on?
CS: That was later. And when he got back on again.
JR: Yes.
CS: Because he had a spate when Peter Ruffles knocked him out, and he wasn't on it.
JR: I see, and when was that?
CS: I can’t remember?
JR: Oh, right. Did you find, how did you find the life as being a Councillor's wife? Did you enjoy that?
CS: Some yes, some no. It interfered too much with family life, that's why I can understand how MP's marriages break up.
JR: Yes.
CS: It interfered too much with, because the point is when a Councillor first goes he is young and still working. You've got your work, your Council work, and you haven't really got any time for a lot more.
JR: Yes, so you think the wife has a…
CS: Especially if she has got no interests of her own. You have got to be involved with things of your own.
JR: You have got to whatever, your husband is doing, I assume support them. May not be what you want to do particularly, well it's not that you don't want to support them but what the cause is may not be your cause.
CS: No.
JR: Yes, I can imagine. What about the other wives, do you get on with them?
CS: Do you know what, I got on ever so well with the Tory wives.
JR: Did you, yes.
CS: Once an election was over, the wives just got involved in everything and just went along and supported their husbands. They was great, especially Anne Hunter I still get on well with Anne Hunter.
JR: Yet you might well not have done, I mean it sounds as though, did you have to make an effort or was it a natural?
CS: Didn’t have to, it was natural with her. Everybody. I mean…
HS: Well, the thing is there with the wives of Councillors, Mayor making time, not Mayor making, the Christmas party there for the old people, they used to have meetings around the Mayor’s wife…
CS: The Mayoress.
HS: …Mayoress, and used to wrap up parcels for the old people.
JR: Was this the predecessor to Christmas alone, then?
HS: No.
CS: No, no, no, no, this is the old peoples Christmas party, you know.
HS: The Mayor’s party, the Mayor’s party.
CS: The Mayor’s party, because the Addis’ used to, they were very good they were very generous they always used to donate gifts and Tesco's when they came always donated tea, so we used to wrap all these gifts up, around…
JR: What's now the over 75’s?
CS: Yes, yes.
JR: Oh right, I'm with you now, I'm sorry.
CS: And I mean the people who helped in the kitchen, whoever was the Mayor or Mayoress at that time, used to arrange that they had got refreshments in there. We used to have as good a party in the kitchen as that lot [laughs] it used to be good fun, didn’t it.
HS: There was more social life between the Councillors wives.
JR: Yes, yes.
CS: It was nice, you know.
HS: Well, the thing is they used to go around other people’s houses, and do these things.
CS: I mean we used to go to dinner and dances, we used to go with Grace and Des O'Connor, didn't we?
JR: So you knew them?
CS: Oh yeah, yeah.
HS: Oh yeah. Once you are elected you are there to do your best there for the people you’ve been…
CS: You see that's why I think a lot of our people do wrong, when they don't get involved. You should get involved.
HS: Anyhow, are you alright?
JR: Yes, yes.
HS: We're not going on too long, are we?
JR: No, I really just wanted to go on it a bit longer because it would seem silly to come up here and not ask you also about this, if there was time, if we had the energy. Another thing I wanted to ask was, how did you in your first days in the Council, did you, were the Labour Party Councillors or members of the branch let's say, were they a different kind of person from those you get now, I mean we have got a fairly intellectual set now.
HS: Yes, yes. You had the intellectuals there, but you had a broader mix. That's why my big worry about the Labour Party there, the intellectuals coming in, too many of them there. I mean it is good to have the intellectuals and you must have, but you mustn't forget the grassroots…
JR: That’s right, yes.
HS: …and you must incorporate the grass roots. When we was up here on Sele Farm we used to have a war party up here and we used to get members, you know, from this area used to join in. And it worries me now that having meetings in licenced premises. I don't, I mean I do drink, but I don’t agree with meetings in licenced premises. I think that is enough to put some people off who do not, do not like drink or don’t drink for any particular reason there.
JR: Well it puts me off because I don't like going into pubs.
CS: No, me neither.
HS: Well I mean that is the thing.
JR: I did that occasionally just not to be anti-social, but I don't like it.
HS: No, well the thing is that we always used to have meetings in, I mean we had had meetings in pubs, I'm not saying that we didn't in the younger days but as for having war party meetings, we always used to have it in somebody’s house, and I think it is far better to have it in a small group in their house. That's why I like the group meetings there to be in the Castle. It is not a licenced premises and nobody feels out of place going in there, I don't think anyhow, because if you wanted to say anything there you are not hindered, which means if you are in a licenced bar and somebody says something there that they don't agree, if they have had drink, you can often say things there which you perhaps wouldn’t have said if you was cold sober.
JR: Yes, you could get somebody coming into the room by mistake.
CS: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
HS: Yes, yes. I mean the thing is there you could also, none of these licenced meetings there were 100% foolproof really, anybody can listen to anything outside the doors.
JR: Did you find a number of people who were in more manual occupations as well, when you first?
HS: Oh yes.
JR: What sort of, who are obviously working for better working conditions and things like that?
HS: Well, I was a manual one, Sam Edgar there he, he was in printing in those days and he was a printer, which is an ordinary job put it that way, in those days. Colin worked for The Mercury. I am just trying to think, going back there…
JR: Was the anyone called Metcalf, I seem to have that name, Metcalf, what did he do?
HS: I can’t remember. Yeah, I think he worked in the builders, building firm. But no, there was quite a number of people there you know, not in the intellectual class but…
JR: They were the original people you would expect to find in a social group, aren't they, socialist party group, yes.
HS: That's the trouble there, the socialist party there have not broadened with the population, they’ve gone intellectual and come inwards...
JR: Yes, yes.
HS: …‘tis worrying.
End of Tape 2, Side 1
JR: The Labour Party in the Council, I mean how do you, what do you think the next election will bring? Do you think it will all be…
HS: Do you want that recorded?
JR: lLaughs] I don't know, perhaps well, don't mention names just…
HS: Well I think a lot has got to be altered locally there if Labour wants to get back into power. People have got to let themselves be known, and if Councillors are not known in the public, they will not get elected on the second time. They have got to, they've got to make sure that they are known and known for sensible things, as a worker there for the people. It's no good being a Councillor for the title of it and sitting back and waiting for the next election and expecting people to come out and vote for you.
There are some areas in the country where you can do that, where Labour is 100% safe. You could put a cat with the red hat on and they will get elected, the same as Hertford used to be. Hertford used to be a strong Tory, there is strong Tory still in the background and that worries me that they can come and takeover, if we don't take an active part. It is no good taking an active part in the intellectual side there, people judge you by what you do locally.
I mean, when I was a Councillor and I lived on the estate, I lived in the area in the ward, but I never had any surgeries there. My surgeries were open 24 hours a day, come and knock anytime or phone anytime, and I will speak to them there and then or make arrangements for them to come to see me, or I go to see them.
JR: It sounds a bit like when we interviewed Jack Abbott who was in Bengeo. He had the same kind of philosophy, yes, yes carry on, sorry.
HS: Jack wasn't a Councillor.
JR: He was what?
CS: Jack Abbott was a Councillor.
JR: Yes, it sounded more like, right, yes [?]
HS: and he made sure of his homework as well, you didn't catch Jack out, not very often. There was him, Sammy Edgar, they was up in Bengeo. Because we got a strong, had a good election on the three day week, you remember the three day week, we had a chance to go out and meet the people on a three day week and do a lot of work. You still got to go out and meet people, and you've got to belong to not only the Labour Party but I mean to other Associations you’ve got to mix in with other local organisations, whether it be the school PTA or a governor or any local organisations there, where they do have social events and go to the social events as well. If you are seen and known, people recognise the name but if you only come out at election time you are fighting a dead duck at the next election. Does that answer your question?
JR: Yes, yes. Yes, that's fine, well…
HS: I think Councillors there are elected on a political ticket. Once Councillors are elected, they are elected for everybody, and it doesn't matter who they are if they want your advice or I want your help you give it to them, as long as it's not politically against your views, I mean if it was against your political views yes, you would say no I can't do that. You would have to go to Conservative Councillor or something, but most people who have got problems they're not political. There rather to do with their house, their environment, gypsies, rubbish [laughs] state of the roads.
JR: Well, they will go to their local representative, won't they, whatever party I assume, whatever party they stood for or however they voted, they will go to the person who knows about the situation in their ward, surely, I would have thought, yes.
HS: Well that's the thing, that's how it should be.
JR: Yes, okay. Well.
HS: I mean, as I say you are not elected there just to be, have councillor in front of your name, you’ve got to work for it.
JR: Yes, that is true. Right. Well, Henry I don't want to take your time anymore but you have certainly done so well on this tape and Cam as well, I mean, wonderful, it’s really good.
CS: You're welcome.
HS: I was wondering well, whether we’d have enough there to fill up one tape!
JR: I mean we could go on, but I think we’ve probably sat here for two hours.
HS: Is it 2 hours
CS: Yep.
JR: It is enough, because we didn't immediately put the recorder on if you remember we had a quick introduction, but I think what I will do is maybe return. I often say this to people because you can only go on for so long, but there are things when you get home you remember about and there are things that you all think about when I go that you should have told me you think. So I can always add it onto the end of this tape or make a new one if you think of anything else might be useful to future generations.
HS: That’s what I wrote out for something else.
JR: I just wanted to ask you as a postscript really about this being a papal knight, is that right?
HS: Yes.
JR: And then I’ve seen the…
CS: Seen it, in your paper.
JR: Oh, I can have another look later, but just how you got it and how you were recommended and so on?
CS: She doesn't want to see…
JR: It's alright, don't worry, I will I have seen this
HS: I was put forward after I had retired from the Council.
JR: Yes.
HS: Father put me forward there for the work that I had done for the school, the church and the town. He said he wouldn't put it forward until I retired, because he didn't want it to go forward as a political honour. And anyhow, I didn't know nothing about it at the time there he, Cam and him were talking about it and anyhow it was presented to me down at the Church, and I thought it was a great honour there. But I got him to translate it, and the translation is there.
JR: Right. So it's John Paul II, Supreme Pontiff deigns to decree and bestow a golden medal upon Sir Henry Sargent for his singular and well merited christian work making the same to be decorated with his honour, oh that's good it’s in Latin is it?
HS: Yes, it's in Latin.
JR: Yes, yes it's lovely to have that. Yep, because I was speaking to Pat…
CS: Because she had it the same day.
JR: …yes, she was saying.
HS: Yes, she had it for her work in the church and the nursing.
JR: Yes, yes.
CS: She was a local midwife.
JR: Yes. So, she said, I forget what she said now, but if you go to the Vatican you are received in a special way are you?
CS: Yes.
HS: Yes. Well you are received with your papal honour, because you have a badge and everything else to go with it, and we've just seen the badge have you?
JR: She might have shown me hers, but I haven't seen yours no, I don’t think.
HS: I will show it to you.
JR: So when you get, perhaps the Bishop coming or something, do you get a special
HS: Well no. I have worn it once, we wore it once for something or other I forget what it was, but normally you don't wear it. No, it is a papal honour. I suppose you could do if you wanted to flout it [laughs].
JR: Okay, right.
HS: I will show you.
JR: Right. Might as well leave it on for a second. I will put it on pause. Right here is the badge, oh it is like a medal!
HS: Yes, it is.
JR: It is very nice.
HS: It is a sash which goes over your neck.
JR: So you put it round your neck, it is quite long.
CS: No, you pinned it on.
HS: You pinned it on, yes.
JR: It is white and yellow, and it’s got a diamond shape like a medal hanging from it with a picture of Jesus Christ is it, I think so yes, in the middle.
HS: Yes.
JR: Yes. Ok. Thank you for showing me that.
HS: The name is on the back.
JR: And how often have you worn this?
CS: Once.
HS: Once.
JR: Just when you got it, or?
HS: Yeah, I wore it…
CS: You both, no, no you both wore it when you got it.
JR: Right, and that's the only time. Does Pat wear hers at all or is she equally modest, is she?
HS: Yep.
JR: Yes, right. Well thank you…
HS: I know, there are three of us here with.
CS: Joan Pamphilon’s got one, hasn't she?
JR: Yes, she has yes. Three in your church but I mean are they very hard-earned things or?
HS: Oh yes, they are very, they are rare.
CS: Yeah, very rare.
HS: That’s the three I've known since I've been a member of the church.
JR: And they were all there at the same time.
CS: No. No. Joan got hers…
HS: Joan got hers…
JS: Earlier on
HS: Earlier on.
JR: Right, ok. Thank you. Let’s just...
Tape ends.