Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Corbett, Dennis and May (O2002.3) |
| Interviewee | Dennis and May Corbett (DC, MC) |
| Interviewer | Jean Riddell (Purkis) (JR) |
| Date | 08/01/2002 |
| Transcriber by | Mark Green |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O2002.3
Interviewee: Dennis and May Corbett (DC, MC)
Date: 8th January 2002
Venue: 13 Tudor Way, Hertford
Interviewer: Jean Riddell (JR)
Transcriber: Mark Green
Typed by: Mark Green
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
JR: Tuesday the 8th of January 2002. JR here, just going to walk up to Sele Farm and in a few minutes time to number 13 Tudor Way to interview Dennis Corbett about his experiences as a pioneer at Sele Farm in the, presumably in the late 1950s.
JR: We will start off with just asking you where you lived before you went into the services and then if you came out and went back to the same place, or what happened, anyway.
DC: Yes, right, yes well when do you want me to start now?
JR: Yes, I think so, we are ready.
DC: Well, ‘cos I lived at, I think it was number 44 wasn't it Castle Street where I used to live.
JR: 44 Castle Street?
DC: Top of the alley I think it was 44, the number.
JR: Yes.
DC: ‘Cos I lived there for years. I wasn't born there, I was born in Railway Street actually. And, anyway I lived there ‘til we were called up and I used to work at Nicholls Brewery that used to be just around the corner.
JR: In West Street.
DC: Did you know it?
JR: Yes, yes.
DC: I used to work there. That's where I was, no I wasn't called up from there no. After that I went with my brother plastering to learn a trade and of course I was eventually called up just before the War started 2 or 3 days before the War started, little knowing that I would be in for 7 years [laughs] at the time and when I came back after 7 years because I was married then, met the wife in Northumberland.
JR: Were you married before the war?
DC: Oh no.
JR: After the war.
DC: 1941.
JR: Oh, you married during the war?
DC: During the war.
JR: Oh, I see.
DC: Actually the wife was in, had joined the WAAFs then, she was in the WAAFs.
DC: So you met in the services?
MC: No no no. We met, we met when the regiment came up to Northumberland.
JR: Right.
MC: We had been going together for a year we got engaged but as he was underage his parents wouldn't let him get married just then.
DC: I was only 18 when I was called up.
MC: I hadn't met them. So I said, the regiment went away so I thought, my friend kept nagging me to join up. So, of course we went and joined the WAAF you see. But I passed the medical and she didn't. Anyway I went in there, and we got married whilst I was in the WAAF.
JR: I see.
MC: And then straight away I got pregnant so of course I came out and had the baby and sort of that was my war. I had a baby to look after.
JR: So the baby was born in 1942?
MC: 1942 yes.
JR: So you were only still, how old were you then? When the baby was born?
DC: I would have been 19, 20.
MC: 21.
DC: 21
JR: Oh, 21. Right that’s yes, so you weren't a teenage father then?
DC: No no that's right oh no no.
JR: So are you a little bit older than Den then?
MC: Yes, by 7 months.
JR: Oh, right nothing much then, hardly anything in it. So you were also 18 when you met then?
MC: Yes.
JR: or 19.
MC: 19 when we met, because I was nearly 19 when the war came.
DC: Yes, we were 19.
MC: We were 19, yes.
DC: We were stationed there for about a year you see, in Northumberland.
JR: Near Rothbury was it, or...?
DC: Well, we were stationed in Rothbury at first but then we moved about in Northumberland quite a bit. We used to get these invasion scares so you're called up to the coast, putting up barbed wire and what not you know and, anyway…
JR: So can I just interrupt you when you had the baby, were you were you living then at home were you?
MC: I lived at home and then when he got to be about 9 months old I came down here for 6 months, and I used to go back home for 6 months.
JR: To your parents?
DC: Pardon? To my parents that was in Castle Street. In Castle Street, she’d come to Castle Street. When I eventually came out of the army of course we had nowhere to live so we had to move into Castle Street with my mother. How long were we there May?
MC: Goodness.
DC: Quite a little time. They used to tell us before we came out of the army there is a house waiting for you when you get home and all this business, but of course…
JR: Took a bit of time, didn't it?
MC: Dennis went home, and we moved into this house at Hornsmill. I was pregnant then wasn't I?
DC: Yes.
MC: I had already had another, I’m jumping the gun I'd already had another baby but that was when I was, we were living with your mum.
JR: So who was?
MC: And it died, this…
JR: Oh, right.
DC: Yeah, yeah.
MC: …and then 2 years later we moved in, up to Hornsmill.
JR: So can I just get this, in the right order was Dennis the oldest one?
MC: Yes.
JR: And then.
MC: Moya.
JR: Came next.
MC: Yes, Moya.
JR: and the one you lost was in between those two?
MC: Yes, that's right yes.
JR: Right.
MC: It had a hole in it.
JR: Oh, right.
MC: So I, we moved up to Hornsmill and I, and Moya was born, but I hated it up there. And his father died so he suggested we move back in with his mother which was when you look back at it now it was very stupid you know [laughs] but we were young then. Anyway, we moved back for a while and then we put in for a council house again and that is how we came to live up here. That was 1953, coronation year.
JR: Yes. So, the house you lived in, in Castle Street then number 44, is that I can’t, is that one that was next to the bike shop?
MC: Yes.
DC: Just a little bit further on.
JR: Right.
DC: It was just a little bit further.
MC: It was the entrance to ***** house
DC: Do you remember water, water at, you remember an alley there, Water Alley.
JR: Water Lane.
DC: Right at the top of it. Top of Water Lane.
JR: Oh, right, nearer to Water Lane.
DC: Oh it was right next to, next to Water, as a matter of fact you came out of your side gate and next door was the Black Swan pub.
JR: Oh.
MC: You walked across the lane and into the Black Swan.
JR: Oh, I see, I never realised.
DC: I mean you had to walk, walk across the lane and you was in the pub. [Laughs]
JR: Is that House demolished now then?
DC: Oh yes, it's gone now.
JR: Yes, this is what I was thinking about.
DC: Oh yeah, yeah.
JR: Right. Yes, I know the pubs gone. I didn't realise there was a 44 there, a number 44.
MC: Pardon?
JR: I didn't realise that there was a 44 Castle Street.
DC: Yes, I'm sure it is 44.
MC: No, I can't remember the number ***
JR: No, I'm sure that is correct.
DC: I'm sure it was 44.
JR: Right let's just check this and make sure we got, so when, so when you were living with mother-in-law and how did you get to hear that there were houses up here?
DC: How did we what?
JR: Get to know about the availability of houses up here?
DC: Well. well you had to go on a housing list.
JR: Right.
MC: Yes. We, I’d had another baby then which was Colin.
JR: Yes.
MC: And of course, they were old houses down there so, and I hated it so, of course it wasn't really very nice. So, we put our names down again and they give us this house.
JR: Yes.
DC: And of course, mother moved up into one of those flats there.
JR: Oh, did she?
DC: That first flat. She moved up into there.
JR: That's in Tudor way as well isn't it, that block, yes?
MC: They weren't there when we moved in.
DC: Not when we first came up, they weren’t here. After they built those, mother moved up into one of those which is fine really, yes yeah yeah.
JR: So you, did you miss living in, because you are really in the centre of town.
MC: Yes.
JR: Actually, weren't you. Did you miss those facilities?
DC: Well, in a way I suppose you did, but…
MC: No bathrooms in them houses and I at home I'd always had a bathroom you know, and I couldn't come to terms really with living like that, I know I did it but I didn't like it you know. So, we just thought, well by then we had three children so we should have a home, you know.
JR: Yes.
MC: and we were lucky enough to get this. I mean there's quite a lot of houses being built there so that's how we came to be here, and we've been here ever since 1953.
JR: So that is getting on for 50 years isn't it? Getting on for 50 years. So who, you were talking to Peter earlier on about local characters in that end of Castle Street and Water Lane, what do you remember about them, particularly?
DC: About Water Lane.
JR: Well, we were talking about…
MC: Billy Chicken lived in Water Lane
DC: Pardon?
MC: Billy Chicken, you called him.
DC: Oh yeah, well, Fowler his name was but we always used to call him Billy Chicken. He used to do a paper round, and he had a three-wheel bike and he used to have his, a basket on the back with all his papers in you know and there was another, he had a brother didn't he?
Transcriber Note: William Fell was his name but the Hertfordshire dialect corrupted this to “Fowl” hence Billy Chicken.
MC: I don't know.
DC: Yeah, he had a brother, but he didn't used to go on the paper rounds at all. Anyway he must have done that for quite a number of years, Billy Chicken but as we say one day his house was absolutely stacked with papers, old papers you know and everything and how the fire happened we don't know, but anyway it caught fire…
MC: He actually fell on the hearth, Den.
DC: Eh?
MC: He actually fell on the hearth.
DC: Yeah, yeah, fell on the hearth and of course he got burnt and he died.
JR: Oh, from that he died.
DC: I think it was from that. Well he was getting on. He was a pretty old man and he used to wear the old gaitor things…
JR: Never. Yes…
DC: …and all that kind of thing.
JR: There is a good picture of him actually in the museum.
MC: Yes.
DC: Oh yes, yeah yeah.
MC: Your mother had that picture.
DC: Yes, she did.
MC: Taken outside your house, with the bike, that's the same picture.
DC: Yes, that was with another chap standing next to him and I'm sure his name…
JR: Was Abbott, isn’t it?
DC: Abbott.
JR: Abbott. Yes.
DC: It was Abbott. Yes.
JR: It was the father, I think it was the father of Jack Abbott who lived in Bengeo now and who was a Labour councillor for some years, I think it was his father.
DC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember him. He was quite well known, actually yeah, but um..
JR: Which house did Mr, well, Billy Chicken...
DC: Oh, yeah well.
JR: ...house was that?
DC: Well, as you went down the al...our house was at the top, as you went down the alley it was the next house on the right.
JR: Oh right.
MC: And it backed onto his mother’s house, it went
JR: Yes.
MC: Her house was, looking at um, what’s it called, Castle Street, and this was on the back of it.
JR: Right, yes, I think I know where you mean.
DC: And I can remember in the old house, in mum’s house, they used to have a big old cellar. Well it wasn’t actually a cellar it was a room on the side wasn’t it, no windows to it or nothing, and they used to use that as an air raid shelter, whenever there was an air-raid they used to get into this room.
JR: Was it below ground?
DC: No. No, it wasn’t, no. But there was no windows to it or nothing.
JR: Oh right.
MC: *****
DC: You stayed in…
MC: You know I think they used to have coal pit places in their houses, I think that’s what it had been but they had cleaned it out, and it had an opening to the daughter’s house next door where Billy Chicken lived, and they had a bell on there and when they wanted to say something to each other they used to ring this bell and talk through this opening. [Laughs]
JR: Oh, right!
MC: Yes, yes.
DC: Yes, that’s right. Yes.
MC: I’d forgotten about that.
JR: Where there in your time living there, were there two cottages facing those present ones?
DC: On the left-hand, going down the alley?
JR: Yes, or four, was it, two or four
DC: Yes, there was, yeah, and um….
JR: Harts, was it Harts?
DC: Watsons lived in one.
JR: Yes.
DC: And the Harts lived in the other.
JR: That’s right.
DC: Yeah, yeah, ‘cos they are all gone now, of course
JR: And this is Katy Crocker’s house now
DC: Pardon?
JR: Katy, the lady that’s now called Katy Crocker, um who Peter was talking about. This is where she lived.
MC: That would be her mother and father.
JR: A Hart, she was a Hart.
DC: As a matter of fact um, he is still alive, um um um, who we used to call Trotty, um…
MC: Trotty Watson?
DC: Yeah, Watson.
JR: Right.
DC: He lives in Hertfordbury.
MC: Do you mean Trotty Watson?
DC: He is still alive.
JR: Well I am not sure about him, I don’t, he is a new name to me but, I think, did Peter mention him just now or did you mention him? When Peter was here?
MC: I don’t think he did, no.
JR: Ok, right then.
DC: Yeah, yeah, and of course um it was, that was in the days when there was Chase Side Garage used to be there right opposite.
JR: Right.
DC: And Pegs Lane where there was a lot of cottages yes, in those days, yes.
JR: Do you remember those cottages in Pegs Lane?
DC: Oh yes, very well.
JR: Were they…
MC: In the war…
JR: …a bit derelict, were they?
DC: Oh yeah, oh yeah, very old, very old, yeah. And then as you went up a little bit further, there is Archer’s the scrap metal dealer had a Yard there, and a little bit further on the opposite side his brother was a scrap dealer as well, but they never used to speak to each other.
JR: Right.
DC: [Laughs] Never used to speak to each other, no, no. And the one, the Archer I’m talking to on the left he used to have, in the summer, he used to have a big old couch outside something like this, and he used to lay there all day eating away nuts and things [Laughs]. He was ever so fat mind you.
JR: Right.
DC: I always remember him, yeah, yeah. And then up a little bit further was allotments. ‘Cos they are not there now, of course. Yeah. My dad used to have an allotment there, yeah, yeah.
MC: The new rule did away with all them places.
JR: Yes. That’s right. But there were some stores there weren’t there, some shops there, was there a Camp, not Camp?
DC: A Castle Cash Store it was called.
JR: A Castle, Castle that’s right.
DC: Castle Cash Stores. That was there for years, yeah. And then there was the, you go up the road a little bit further and there was um some more houses and I can remember Cannon’s, I don’t suppose you have ever heard of Cannon’s.
JR: I have actually, yes, yes.
DC: Well he used to be in charge of the swimming pool, the old swimming pool in Hertford, ‘cos I think that’s just a paddling pool now. The river used to run through it.
JR: That’s right, yes.
DC: And that’s where I passed all my swimming certificates.
JR: Well done, in the cold water. [laughter] Muddy floor.
DC: It used to be really black. Once you got under you couldn’t see nothing because the river was running through it, you see. Oh yeah.
JR: Actually, I have got some quite nice photographs of that because, do you remember Len Green?
DC: Yes, teacher.
JR: Well he, when he died, the family gave me some of his photographs. One or two showed children from school actually diving off the side into the swimming pool.
DC: Well I’m blowed.
JR: From that pool. They were quite nice photographs. Yes.
DC: Well I’ll be blowed, yeah [laughs].
JR: Did you, which school did you go to then?
DC: Well, of course I went to the infants school at first, in Hertford, and then I eventually went to the Cowper School.
JR: Right so yes. That’s obviously.
DC: That’s where I left school, at the Cowper School.
MC: And you never had your last year at school, did you?
DC: Pardon?
MC: You never had your last at school.
DC: No, I, you may not believe this, not many people do believe it when I tell them, but I broke my neck when I was 13. Playing football and I lost the last year of school with it. I used to have to wear a collar which used to come right down here, right up here, round the back of me head, right round here [laughs] and I had it on for nine solid months, never off. And um, anyway I got over it and when I eventually had this collar off because I couldn’t hold me head up all the muscles was gone, you know, and er, I got over that [laughs] and of course I passed for the army all right, no trouble.
JR: Right.
DC: Yeah, yeah, but I actually lost the last year at school, so actually I left school at 13.
JR: Doesn’t seem right.
DC: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JR: Did you, I mean when you came to live down here or when you visited first of all for six months, what kind of place did you think it was? Did you like it here?
MC: Oh yes, I liked it, I liked it because in the summer, all the fruit shops were laden with fruit from just around this area,
JR: Yes, local.
MC: And we didn’t see that at home, you see, didn’t have that abundance at home but I mean when the cherries came they had great windows full of cherries and when the flowers came, you know, all kinds of plum and apples and we just couldn’t, I just couldn’t believe, you know, [laughs] so much fruit because we didn’t get fruit like that.
JR: No.
MC: You see we lived right out of the way in a village and everything had to come by freight somehow or other, you know.
DC: But there was one good thing you got there and that was fish.
MC: Yes, we did.
DC: Real fresh fish.
MC: I couldn’t look at the fish shop, I still can’t look at the fish shop here.
JR: And yet it has a good reputation.
MC: Well, I know that [laughs]. We used to have a man, well a man in the village and he used to go at the crack of dawn and get the fish when they brought it in on the boat, and come round sell it that same day, that’s how we got our fish. And it was so sweet, you know, but I could never look at the fish here.
DC: And of course another thing was there was a salmon river runs through Rothbury and when the salmon are running well her father used to be a great poacher [laughs] and they always had salmon [laughter].
MC: Among many others, yes.
JR: Yes, so you were used to getting fresh salmon. That’s a luxury, well it is now.
MC: I mean it is a luxury, but I mean I couldn’t care less because we had so much. I didn’t want to know about salmon, you know.
DC: Another thing is, your Mum always used to bake her own bread, didn’t they, everybody up there baked their own bread in those days.
MC: We never had shop bread until the war came…
JR: So, when you came down here did you easily make friends with people or, were they quite good?
MC: Yes, because you had a baby you see, and I mean we always go and sit in the Castle, I mean there were loads of mothers with babies, used to go round there we used to… and the green in front of the Castle and the children used to run about on there. Oh yes, made plenty of friends. They’ve got a big family.
JR: Yes, yes.
DC: Yes.
MC: No, I never felt lonely. But um we used to go back and forward on the sometimes on the what do they call it, The Flying Scotsman.
JR: Oh, did you?
MC: Yes.
JR: Yes, yes, yes.
MC: They were all steam trains then. Dirty old things they were [laughs]
JR: So, were you quite glad to get home again?
MC: Yes, I was, I liked going back and forward yes, I did.
DC: Well it was nice I suppose to go up there for six months and then come back for six months.
MC: Well we had a tea chest and all his toys used to pack in this tea chest and just get it up to the East Station, not the East Station the North Station, and then it would be there at Rothbury I mean in a day or so. I mean you can’t really do things like that now.
JR: So, you sent it on ahead of you?
MC: Yes.
JR: Ok. Right, so it wasn’t too bad then?
MC: No [laughter]
DC: Of course, there used to be a railway station in Rothbury which isn’t there now.
JR: No, no.
MC: Have you ever been to Rothbury?
JR: Yes, I have actually, yes. I’ve been a lot to that area, in fact, yes, yes.
MC: It gets a lot of visitors.
JR: Well it’s really a very beautiful if rather desolate in the winter, place, isn’t it. [Laughter]. It is a bit like two *** summer it is lovely
DC: Have you ever seen it in winter? [Laughter]
JR: Yes, oh yes.
MC: It is horrible up there in the winter
JR: Yes, it is the kind of place where you want to go for a very short, quick walk and come in again.
DC: Yeah, yeah. Of course the estate up there, Armstrong Estate,
MC: Oh, um, Cragside.
DC: Cragside. Have you been to Cragside, up there?
JR: I don’t think so. I don’t think I have actually been to Cragside.
DC: In actual fact, we were stationed in there for quite some time, Cragside.
JR: I don’t remember. I might well have been but I can’t remember the name.
DC: Oh, it is beautiful in the summer.
MC: All the Rhododendrons and Azaleas.
JR: Well in that case, I think I have.
MC: Yes.
JR: Yes, I think so. Now you say that. Because I associate that with Rothbury, the rhododendrons, yes.
MC: Yes, yes, all round the hill side where you had your *** because it was him that invented guns and things like that. The first Lord Armstrong.
JR: Yes.
MC: Armstrong, Vickers Armstrong or something like that, and all around that part of the hillside it is copper beech, fir trees, azaleas and rhododendrons, yes. Lovely when they are all out.
JR: Yes, yes.
DC: And you used to meet Lord Armstrong when you was kids, didn’t….
MC: When we were children, well that was not the one that invented things.
DC: No.
JR: Was that a place or…
MC: ***we used to think he was old, he was probably in his fifties or something like that. And he used to come down the hill walking towards Rothbury, and we would be coming home from school, and he’d say “Good afternoon” and take his hat off [laughs]. We just used to run [laughs].
JR: Yes, yes.
MC: The ‘Old Lordy’ we used to call him [laughs].
DC: Yes, that’s right. Yeah.
JR: Ok, so…
MC: So you want to know more about this estate, do you?
JR: Well I thought we’d, now you’ve got here really with three children.
MC: Yes, came up here with three children.
JR: Managing to get a house up here. So, what did you think, I mean, when you first - did you come up to have a look first?
MC: Yes.
JR: And decided to have it?
MC: Yes.
JR: Yes.
DC: Oh yes, straightaway.
MC: We were quite pleased
JR: You liked the house?
DC: Yes, no trouble. We were fed-up with living with in-laws *** you see. So we wanted to be on our own, you see, and we took it straightaway. I can even remember the night we came up here and I laid a bit of lino around the floor, *** do you remember that, the first night?
JR: Yes.
MC: Well there wasn’t any carpets, then [laughs].
DC: I can, yeah
JR: So did you, now, when you came in you had, well did you have a solid fuel fire here?
MC: Yes, yes.
DC: Yeah.
JR: Open fire?
DC: Open fire, yes.
MC: And a boiler thing in the kitchen.
JR: Solid fuel?
MC: Yes, and then coke, you know.
JR: Right.
MC: You just, it had a pipe going up and up in the chimney and it heated the water.
JR: So it was quite a cosy…with the two fires.
MC: Oh yes, yes, it was. Wasn’t bad at all.
DC: ‘Co that has all gone now, it has all been taken out.
JR: Yes, I realise that. Yes. Now, you said that Cherry Tree Green was the first road to be built.
MC: It was, yes.
JR: And then a bit of this came.
MC: It started this…
DC: In actual fact when we actually moved in here there was no houses at all up there, nothing at all.
MC: No next block. Not beginning to…
DC: There was no proper road.
JR: So your block…
MC: Yes there was Den, there was that one there and the next block because.
DC: Oh yes, that’s right.
MC: Because Mrs Brady that lived next to us had been given a house in the next block and she didn’t want it, so she got this one here, so I know there was one over…
DC: There was no proper road though, just a kind of a track.
MC: No fences at the back, no garden, you couldn’t tell which was your garden.
JR: No, right.
DC: No, no fences.
JR: No. So, did you have to wait to do the garden for a bit?
MC: Oh yes.
DC: Yes, we had to wait, they eventually put the fences up, you see, yeah, oh yeah. We got quite a big garden actually.
JR: Yes.
MC: They were building next door when we came up. The next block, you know, not this block the next block, they were building that.
DC: We got a garage down the bottom and everything, you see so it was quite good really, and a service road
JR: Yes, you have.
DC: Along the bottom.
JR: Yes, you have.
MC: Well, also, there wasn’t any houses down the hill. Where this road ends, there weren’t any houses down the hill from here. That’s part of Windsor Drive but it wasn’t there then.
JR: This block next to you, and your block were here.
MC: Two, yes.
JR: And nothing going down to Bramfield Road. So Cherry Tree Green…
MC: Was there.
JR: Was there, but nothing facing as you came out,
MC: No.
JR: No, ok
MC: And no block, no block of flats over there, or there, nor anywhere else on the estate. They just kept building along and then they went out the other way down Bentley Road and that way, they went right along here first all the ins and outs, and then they went down Bentley Road. But all those blocks of flats along the shops they weren’t there. There was a big piece of waste ground there, and The Griffin wasn’t there, because the circuses used to come on there, oh, several times. Circuses used to come along here.
DC: Yes, they did, yeah
MC: And there was no shops,
DC: No, no shops, no, no
MC: They weren’t built.
JR: So how did you manage to get your groceries?
MC: Well they used to deliver from the town. You’d just telephone and give an order in, I mean it is not like you get them now, we used to have a box like that, whereas now [laughs]***
JR: Packaging, isn’t it?
DC: That’s right, yeah.
MC: Yeah.
JR: So did you have a greengrocer, ****
MC: Oh yes, greengrocer, baker, everybody came around.
JR: I see.
MC: You didn’t have to worry, but if you wanted to go down the town you had to walk because when we first came here there was no buses either.
JR: No, no. So there wasn’t anything coming down Bramfield Road in the way of a bus.
MC: No, no, nothing down here, no.
DC: There were hundreds of times we must have walked up here from the town.
JR: Yes, which way did you go?
MC: Mostly just down the hill there.
DC: The Bramfield Road.
JR: I think that’s quicker, isn’t it?
DC: Oh it is, yes.
JR: Because I came that way today,
MC: Did you?
JR: I thought I’d come…
MC: It is a little hill at the end that’s a killer.
JR: Well, that is not much, is it, but I know what you mean, yes, yes.
[MC then asks about tea or coffee, and exchanges about tea and coffee have not been transcribed]
JR: So, the roads were not made up, so it was pretty muddy…
DC: As a matter of fact, I’ll tell you, I had an old motor then, a little old Ford 8 motor it was called a Y model, it was very old, it was made before the war, you know, I managed to be able to buy it and as I say there was no proper road here and no proper front gardens, so I used to park it like on the side, the verge like where this old road was. Do you know the police came up one day and told me to move the car I was obstructing [laughs] you’d never believe it, would you. And I had to move the car, of course there was no fences up or nothing so what I done, I done no more than drove it round the back and kept it outside the back door [laughs].
JR: But in the garden?
DC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it wasn’t no gardens in actual fact then they weren’t fenced or anything.
JR: No but it was a patch, your patch at the back.
DC: Yes, that’s right, yes. And maybe it was just a motor, I don’t know why, no.
JR: Perhaps it was builders lorries it was in the way of?
DC: No, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t stopping anything really, would it, close off the track that was up there, you know, but I suppose that was what they were like in those days.
JR: Yes. Did many people have cars then?
DC: No, not many. A chap opposite me, he had a car as well, but I can’t remember what his name was, now. He’s dead and gone now, long time. But there weren’t many cars up here, no, no, oh no.
JR: So where did you work at that time?
DC: Well, when I first come out of the army, I thought well I won’t go back plastering because there was loads of work about at that time. There was plenty of work. So I worked, went into a factory called Nortons at Welwyn Garden City.
JR: Oh yes, I know that one, yes.
DC: And they were paying fairly good money and it was all piece work so the harder you worked the more money you got. Well I worked there for some time, but of course, coming out of the army being cooped up in a factory it didn’t agree with me. It felt as though I was in prison, you know, I stuck it for a while and then I, eventually I went back plastering with my brother and that is where I’ve stayed ever since. And then, as time went on, my youngest son he came plastering he liked plastering with us, and I, we worked together for years self-employed with my youngest son, yeah, that’s the one that’s sitting down up there.
JR: In the blue?
DC: Yeah, the one sitting down yeah, yeah. And for years we worked together and of course then I had a bad year last year you see, and I couldn’t work, couldn’t really work, so I had to throw the work in, and I have not done any plastering since. But that is all I have done, all my life really, plastering. The whole family has. I have still got a grandson who does it.
JR: Oh, have you?
DC: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
JR: Is that Dennis’ son, or the other one?
DC: No, that would be…
JR: Oh, one of the girls, is it?
DC: One of the girls, Colleen.
End Side One
Side two
DC: He’s got a van and he’s put Corbett Plasterer’s on it. [Laughs]
JR: Has he? Keep it in the family tradition.
DC: Keep the family going.
JR: Well that’s nice, isn’t it.
DC: It is very nice.
JR: What’s his real surname then?
DC: Read is his real name. Read, Read, yeah. Of course, Colleen is divorced from her husband now for quite some time, matter of fact it’s queer, four children we had, and they are all divorced.
JR: Oh, are they?
DC: All of them, yeah. Yet we have been married for over sixty years.
JR: Well, difficult, isn’t it.
DC: Something went wrong somewhere, didn’t it.
JR: Yes, well, it’s the society isn’t now?
DC: It is, it is a different way of living.
JR: It is, yes.
DC: A different way of living oh yes, oh yeah. Well I always used to say that the kids now they get too much, they get too much, come Christmas they get all these presents, they don’t know what to play with half the time they ruin everything, you know, they just get too much.
JR: So who did you start being on friendly terms with up here, who were your neighbours and new friends up here, when you moved in? Who were you particularly friendly with?
DC: Gosh. Well, next door, lived next door, I used to go to school with her.
JR: Oh right.
DC: Pearson, her maiden name used to be, Pearson, and they always used to call her Bobbie, Bobbie Pearson, and I actually went to school with her so of course I mean I knew them very well, yes, and next door, I didn’t know him until he, until we moved up, but he was a bricklayer and he worked for the Council for quite some time, bricklaying. They were alright, both good, we’ve always had good neighbours, always, yeah.
JR: Did you get many people moving up here who weren’t from the town? Who’d come in from other areas?
DC: Oh yeah, more so lately. More so lately. I mean, most people we don’t know along the road.
JR: No, no.
MC: No, we don’t *** we knew. Hardly anybody here.
DC: No, no.
JR: But in the early days?
MC: Oh yes.
JR: A lot of local people?
MC: Oh yes.
DC: We knew them all then.
JR: Yes, yes.
MC: We knew all the children went to school, we met everybody and it was different.
JR: Yes. So, when did they put on public transport, then? How long had you been here? Quite a long time before they put a...
MC: It was a while, yes, but not years and years, but it seemed a long time but I can’t remember when.
JR: No. I mean you were here some time, without.
MC: They used to come along the end...
DC: Yeah, they used to come through the estate
MC: …up there they used to come
DC: Used to stop up the end there.
MC: Come up the end and we had to walk along there and get on the bus.
JR: Yes, yes. When did, how long were you here before the shops were built?
MC: Can’t remember back then [laughs]
DC: Must have been here at least a year.
MC: Oh no, it was more than that…
DC: More than that?
MC: ...much more than that.
DC: I dunno.
MC: Oh, I should say 4 or 5 years I should say but I can’t say exactly. It was quite a while.
DC: Yes, it was quite a while.
MC: I mean we didn’t sort of, it didn’t matter at first because everything just came around, you know. So, we didn’t think anything of it, because things were delivered, and things came to your door. The butcher delivered. Stallabrass [laughs] they delivered and we just, we sort of managed alright, if you wanted to go down the town of course you had to walk.
JR: Yes, yes.
MC: And we didn’t really mind that, then, it was an outing, wasn’t it.
JR: So, your mother, when these were built did she get one of the first ones or…
DC: Yes, she did actually, yes. The first, very first one this end, she got, on the ground floor.
JR: On the ground floor, yes.
DC: The ground floor.
JR: So you could keep an eye on her.
DC: Pardon?
JR: You could keep an eye on her.
DC: Oh yeah, I used to go over, she had an open fire I used to go every day and chop her wood for her for her fire.
JR: Did you?
DC: Oh yes. She was often over here, anyway. Oh yeah, yeah.
JR: Had your father died then?
DC: Yeah, Father died, he actually he died of an ulcer, but during the Great, he was in the Grenadier Guards. He was a regular soldier actually before the Great War started and he went right through the war in the Grenadier Guards which was saying something and of course he was a bricklayer as well he worked on the building. Yeah, yeah.
JR: Did he, was he a local person too?
DC: Oh no he came from Worcester.
JR: Ok.
DC: Worcester. Yeah, yeah.
JR: So what made him land in Castle Street then?
DC: Well I think he met my mum in London, she lived in London.
MC: Lived in Acton and Ealing way somewhere like that.
DC: And of course they got married and eventually they moved here I don't know why they moved here.
MC: Moved here because you're sister had a fish shop here.
DC: Oh yeah. At Hatfield.
MC: Yes, but your other sister had a fish and chip shop here.
DC: That's right, that's right he used to come, the son-in-law had a fish shop in Hatfield and the son-in-law used to come round with the vans selling fish.
JR: Yes.
DC: And I think that's why they actually moved here.
MC: Well they moved here because her sister was well both of her sisters lived here one lived at Welwyn and one lived at Hertford.
DC: But she had another one that lived in Bognor.
JR: Where?
DC: Bognor.
JR: Bognor, oh yes.
MC: Yes, but that same one was the one that lived in Hertford. Nance.
JR: What before? Did she retire to Bognor?
MC: She lived in a fish shop, she had a fish and chip shop.
JR: What name was that, what name was the fish shop? Or where was it?
MC: I can't remember her name.
DC: Well the ones at Hatfield was Hampstead, Hampstead.
MC: What was Nancy's name, then?
DC: Eh?
MC: What was Nancy's married name, Hampstead?
DC: No no no no no the other one, oh Nan…
JR: The one here.
DC: The one, the ones at Hatfield.
MC: The one at Welwyn was Hampstead, the one here was…
DC: I can't remember her name.
MC: Oh God, isn't it terrible?
JR: Where was the shop.
DC: Actually, they were quite well off, actually because they had shops there are and a riding school and everything at Bognor.
JR: Oh, Bognor right.
DC: So they were, you know, they were quite well off.
JR: Where was their shop in this town, in Hertford, where was their shop? Did they have one here did you say?
MC: Yes.
DC: Yes, in actual fact they did, and how can I explain it to you, you know where the shopping centre is in Hertford?
JR: Yep.
DC: Now, you go into the shopping centre there are gates across isn't there where there *** but before you get down to there, on the left there used to be a pub called The Diamond, it's a, is it a, its a card shop now, isn’t it.
JR: It’s Thorntons, the chocolates isn't it, the Belgian chocolates.
DC: They used to be called The Diamond pub a very, very well-known pub.
JR: I know about that.
DC: Oh, very well known.
MC: Notorious…
DC: There was always trouble in the Diamond. Well next to the Diamond right in the entrance they used to have fish and chip shop.
JR: That wasn't Raw’s, was it, Raw? (at one time it was Raw’s fish shop)
DC: No, fish and chip.
JR: Yes. Oh, ok right.
MC: You mean the name?
JR: Yes, no I’m, I’m…
MC: You mean raw fish?
JR: No I don't.
MC: Not one..
DC: No, it was fish and chips.
JR: In the, long, maybe before your time, actually but at sometime there was a lady living just behind what is not really behind the Diamond but down the side of it, called granny Raw and she had a fish business I think.
DC: I didn't know her.
JR: Anyway it doesn't matter. So, what was her surname, can you remember?
MC: We can't remember. What was her, her husband's name was Harry, wasn't it? What was Nancy's husband's name? If we can remember her husband, what was her husband's name? Nance.
DC: Bill, I think, Bill.
MC: No, it wasn't.
JR: It wasn't Donoghue, was it?
MC: No.
DC: No.
JR: Because that was another fish shop.
DC: No, that was another fish shop.
JR: No, I know, I'm just making quite sure of this.
MC: Oh, this is terrible because I can't remember names, you know. Specially names you are related, well he's related to.
DC: Well, it, it, no I'm thinking of the son of Hampstead, ‘cos their son used to have a breakers yard in Cheshunt as well.
JR: Right.
MC: No, but we are trying to remember Nancy's husband's surname.
DC: For the life of me I can't…
JR: Well it doesn't matter because I can check on this in a street directory, a trade directory and I will check with you, you if you remember that. Right.
DC: That's when the old Premier Cinema used to be there, I suppose you've heard of it?
JR: Well, I have heard of that. It used to be the Regent, didn’t it?
DC: Well, it was called the Premier first.
JR: I think when it was a playhouse it was the Premier or Premiere, anyway. So did you get being up here a bit out of things in a way, did you get out much socially, did mother-in-law babysit for instance, or?
MC: Well we didn't do that much in them days.
JR: You didn’t.
MC: Sometimes we’d go to the pictures with that was about all.
DC: That's about all, whatever we went the kids went with us.
MC: Sometimes a dance, you know. but not a lot no. They weren't so keen on babysitting in them days, for the children you know.
JR: Well, no, I just wondered if she was there, she might come over if you needed to go out.
MC: No, she would come in the daytime, but she didn't like being, you know being at night to go out in the dark. If you wanted to go anywhere in the daytime, if you had to go somewhere then she would but otherwise didn't like it.
DC: And when we went on holiday we always went camping, you know, with a tent. And of course all the kids, including the dog, all went with us. [laughs]
JR: So what age ranges are between your children?
MC: Well, the eldest one was just on 16 when the youngest one was born, but there was two girls in between, so I had…
JR: Oh, you had a big gap then, in a way, yes.
DC: A 7-year gap between, because with me being in the army, years.
MC: Well between the first two there was a 5-year, after 5 years after the first one I had a second baby which died, so after 7 years I had another baby and then when she was three and a half, then I had Colleen and when Colleen was 5 so I had Sean. So I found one day I was going into the chemist to buy a bottle for 1 and a razor for the other. [laughs]
JR: Really, oh well that's how it is, isn't it?
MC: Yes, and that's why the grandchildren come, a long sweep right down in age levels, you know, because of our children being all spaced you know like that. So I sometimes wonder, if the second one had lived whether I would have had any more children, you know, because I would have had a boy and a girl and I sometimes wonder but it is pretty miserable losing a baby and there was no counsellors in them days.
JR: Well, it must be devastating. I mean, I can't, I can’t begin to understand.
MC: Well nor can I. Well I can, because it happened to me, and that is how I feel sorry for Gordon Brown and his wife, you know, it must be horrible, really horrible.
JR: Yes, yes of course.
MC: Nothing can, nothing can console you really, but then again two years after I have another baby and that sort of…
JR: Took it off a bit.
MC: Yes, yes.
JR: So how old was this little one when…
MC: When it died?
JR: Was it a boy or a girl?
MC: It was a girl, the second baby, it was only a year and a bit. A year and two quarters. But they said it was a hole in its heart and I mean then they couldn't do anything. I mean they might have done it before they had the baby, and sometimes they do things like that now.
JR: Nowadays, yes.
MC: **** In fact I didn't know anything about it until it was born. You didn't have so many examinations then, you know…
JR: No, no.
MC: They just used to listen to something from your stomach in them days you know, like a cup thing and they put their ear on it
JR: A heart beating and that was it.
MC: That was it, yes, but still, I mean, people didn’t have such, seem to have such birth traumas then, as they have now, you know.
JR: Yes.
MC: They have terrible birth traumas now, you know. I don't know they have such different ways of going on.
JR: Well, you wonder whether they are not quite so hardy as they were. Don't take it so much in their stride.
MC: Well maybe.
JR: I don't know, no.
MC: Well I don't know either, but you hear of people having stitches **** but it never happened so much then, I mean you don't hear much of it then because they let you have it naturally, you know, they weren't in a hurry to get it over.
JR: No, that's right. What schools did they go to, did they go to schools up here or?
MC: Well, no there were no schools up here when we moved up here. I can't remember, I think St Andrews was probably the first one, and then there was that one over there, then there was the Catholic School down the hill, but they had to go down the town to school and they went to that little school up, past that Ebenezer Chapel place on the, on the left….
JR: St. Andrews?
MC: St. Andrews, yes it was St. Andrews, yes, of course it was.
JR: Well, it completed its move up here, I think in 1961, it was partly up here before that, but as you say when you first came here it wasn't here.
MC: No it wasn't, and Seann went there when he started school and he was born in ’57, wasn't he, so when he was five that's about right isn't it?
JR: Yes, that would have been ready, yes, yes.
MC: Colleen, she went there as well for a while. Yes, she went there for a while, she must have been there when it was partly built.
JR: Well I think they moved them up in stages, from the old buildings to the new ones, yes.
MC: And then she was nearly one of the first lot to go to this, Sele School.
JR: Oh, really? Yes.
MC: So they, Moya had to get up to Balls Park, she was older you see, that school wasn’t along there, and so Colleen could go to Sele School, and Sean went to Sele School.
JR: Did they have to get about under their own steam or…
MC: Well, they went down on the bus, a penny-hapenny actually, a penny-hapenny [laughs] *** they used to get off at the Hospital and walk through Cross Lane, and over the road to the school. When they came home they walked down to St Andrew's Church and got on the bus there. So, nine times out of ten used to go and fetch well, didn't take them somebody else went with them when they went, and I used to take turns with other people to go and fetch them home. We used to walk home mostly.
JR: Right, right down to the school.
MC: Yes, oh yes.
JR: So you were very active then, walking up and down the hill.
MC: Oh, yes, yes [laughs]. Well, not quite so hilly this way.
JR: No, if you came that way, the short sharp hill.
MC: It is, at the end, yes but you are young then and you don't notice it. I can't walk up it now.
JR: I think I would rather have a short sharp hill than a long drawn-out hill.
MC: Probably, yeah, drawn-out, yeah, yeah, probably, but um, you are pushing a pram as well, always pushing a pram.
JR: You always had a pram, yes, yes. So what did the children find up here? Did they go out into the woods and play round here?
MC: Yes, yes.
JR: It was nice was it?
MC: Yes, yes. Well, you weren't so frightened about children going out them. I mean there were never any incidents or anything like that it was only when they got a bit bigger that things, you would hear of things down Hartham maybe, and so therefore they were always warned, you know, about anybody speaking to them, you used to say well we will have a password, you know, and if this person doesn't know the password then they are no friends of ours, you know, better be my name or something like that, so that is what we used to do. But they always went about in a crowd, I mean they didn't go on their own anywhere because of course the swimming pool open, didn't it? And they were able to go down there, or sometimes they wanted to go down Hartham or something like that, you know, but mostly it was the swimming pool, and they used to walk down, and go along Beane Road, quite a walk, really.
JR: Yes, yes it was, wasn't it? Kept them fit.
MC: Oh, yes [laughs] yes. Yes, yes. Oh, I mean, they seem to be, you know, well everybody had children then, I mean, a lot of them came into our garden because we never, we kept tidy but we never made a point of you can't do this and you can't do that, but another lady along that was open house as well, but other gardens there’s no getting into it, so they tended to congregate in here, or in this other ladies garden, you know.
JR: Did you have anything to do with the community centre, and getting that going or, I know some people did up here, didn’t they?
DC: No, not really. No, no we didn't.
MC: I remember we did, we did go to something belonging to it once. That was right at the beginning, we did go to something once.
DC: Did we go there, you say?
MC: We did. We did go to something to do with the community centre, we were in the, we paid into the club as it was. They used to have some kind of a club, and used to come round and collect the money, yes, but I can't remember much about it.
JR: Was that to help set it up then?
MC: I suppose it must have been, yes.
JR: Because that is one of the things I want to do, find out a little bit more about, there are one or two people I know who can tell me, I just wondered if you were involved as well?
MC: I'm pretty sure that we were in, we paid some money towards it, but otherwise I can't remember a lot about it. I really can't.
JR: No, no, I’m just…
MC: It's gone.
JR: It's a long time ago isn't it?
MC: It must have been very important whatever it was.
JR: But you must have liked it here…
MC: Oh, we did.
JR: …because you haven't made the effort to move off, now you don’t…
DC: Oh, no.
MC: We did.
DC: No, no, we liked it.
JR: …need to stay for the family.
DC: Especially when they put…
MC: Nobody behind us, there is only the service road…
DC: They put the service road in the back, you see.
JR: Oh, that wasn't there initially, then?
MC: Oh, no, no, they had to fight for that.
DC: As a matter of fact it took us long while to get it. The chap next door he was called Mr Brady, him and I got together, and we saw different councillors and God knows what about this road.
MC: You see a lot of people along here weren’t for it, you see.
DC: It was just a waste ground, that’s all it was.
JR: I see.
DC: And, um, anyway after lots of to do they decided to do it, but
MC: What did they call that man, that councillor that…?
DC: After, after they done it, I suppose it must have been at least a year after they had done it, it might have been a bit longer than that, the sewer broke, there is a big sewer underneath…
MC: No, the road wasn't there then.
DC: No.
MC: The road wasn’t there.
DC: Yes, it went, no, I tell a lie. The road wasn't there, just before we got here, there was a big sewer there, great big one, and it broke and the house at the end started to sink because the water was going down there. Anyway, they had to dig all that bit up and it was 15ft deep, and you can imagine how wide it was, as wide as this house, yeah *** and we thought oh, well they’ll never put a road through there now, we've had that, but anyway they got it all done.
MC: What was that man's name, that helped to get it, he was on the Council, he went to Canada.
DC: He was a builder. He lived…
MC: He went to Canada, didn't he?
JR: Was it Des O'Connor?
MC: Yes, yes, that's him.
DC: Who?
JR: Des O'Connor.
DC: That's him, and he was the one that really pushed it through for us. Anyway, they eventually built the road and of course it's great we've got that road, you can have your own garage down there, and no trouble parking or anything you know.
JR: Good.
DC: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JR: Now there's another problem up here though isn't there are at the moment with these swallow holes.
MC: Yes.
JR: Have you ever had any problem with that?
DC: No, we haven't.
MC: Well, now and again you get a little subsidence, don't you?
DC: Oh, I did, I had a little bit in the back garden, there, where I got it crazy paved and it's shrunk.
JR: Unexpectedly.
DC: Anyway, I took the crazy paving up and it was quite solid underneath, filled it up with sand put it back and that's been ok for at least 5 years now, 5 years ago I done that and it's ok, yeah.
MC: But there are every now and again there was some, along that path by the flats, there was two along there are several years ago.
JR: Yes.
MC: Just down it goes, yes.
JR: And some along, up here, too.
MC: And further along there. There is a house along there…
DC: Because it is all gravel up here, you see, if you dig down I mean, I was putting some posts in down the bottom when I put the garage up and I had to go pretty deep, and you dig down and first you come to about a foot of soil, then you come to great big flintstones, after the flintstones you come to rubble, and then after the rubble you come to pure sand absolutely pure sand if you get down far enough, yeah, yeah. I’m sure if these houses had not been built, they would have had it for a gravel pit [laughs].
JR: What was here, was it just fields, was it really part of Sele Farm then or?
Transcribers Note: the fields were part of Sele Farm see the boo published 2002
MC: Sele Farm didn't exist then.
DC: No, no it didn't exist.
MC: They only called it that after we moved.
DC: They only called it Sele Farm when the houses started to be built.
JR: Oh.
DC: It wasn't Sele Farm before.
MC: Not to our knowledge.
DC: Why they called it Sele Farm, I don't know.
MC: Because there was some Sele rolling mills or something.
JR: I’ll tell you what, what I heard that the original Sele Farm was in North Road where the Sele Arms is now, somewhere just there and when they built the railway, not the present one but the Old Hertingfordbury line, they had to move the farm out of there to put the railway in and they moved it up to the top here, somewhere where Farm Close is, that area, that's what I heard.
MC: Well, I think that would probably be true.
JR: Now I haven't investigated it seriously, someone has just told me that.
MC: No, it sounds.
DC: I would imagine that that is quite true, I would imagine so.
MC: Because as far as we knew, you know, it wasn't Sele Farm before. Before we came, before the houses were built as far as we know but of course you said that as an explanation as to why it was called that.
JR: Well I shall be investigating this but that’s at the moment what I've heard, but we will see how it goes.
MC: Sounds sort of feasible, doesn't it.
JR: Yes, yes, yes.
MC: No, it just seems a strange name at the time, you know.
JR: Well there is normally a basis for a name, isn't there? I mean those other places down the hill, the Welwyn Road, Saddlers Way and Chandlers Way, they all got a, there is a reason why they are called that.
DC: That's right, yes, yeah.
JR: It is not just something out of a hat, usually. I think they were calling, originally calling these streets up here by Tudor and Stuart…
MC: Yes [laughs]
JR: …well-known people in town, although there are exceptions to that.
MC: Windsor and Tudor way.
JR: Yes, the royal Houses like Tudor and Windsor, yes.
MC: And down, oh, I have forgot the name now, that was a councillor.
DC: Bentley Road.
MC: Bentley Road, that was a councillor.
DC: That was called after a councillor.
JR: Yes, the town clerk, wasn't he, yes.
DC: Yeah, yeah, I remember that, yeah.
JR: Carlton or Calton Avenue, was after Joseph Carlton or Calton, who was a 17th century mayor, I think, in the 1600s, and then Card Close was alderman Card who was also in the 1600s, so one or two of these streets have been called after these ancient common people.
MC: I gathered there must be something like that, you know.
DC: Of course when I was a, when I was a kid I can remember them building Hornsmill Estate, you know the old estate. I can remember them building that, and we used to go up there and play actually when I was a kid.
JR: Was that Pearsons Avenue, that, at first…
DC: Yes, that’s right, yeah, yeah.
JR: …and then they extended that into,
DC: Well, there are new houses up there now, next to it, **** but the old estate I can remember them doing it. That all used to be allotments up there.
JR: Yeah.
DC: Yeah. When I was a child, like.
MC: And then the people from what they call The Green.
DC: People from The Green, the Old Green, they all moved up there, yeah, and that was another notorious place you know The Green you didn't dare walk down there after dark.
JR: No, I've heard that, I've heard this.
DC: Oh no, no. All wooden shacks it was down at The Green.
JR: What would happen if you did walk down there after dark?
DC: Pardon?
JR: What would happen if you did walk down there?
DC: Oh, you would get someone molest you. Try and steal off of you. Oh yeah, oh yeah, well noted that was.
JR: Was there a lot of drinking going on down there?
DC: Yeah, yeah, a lot of drinking.
JR: A lot of pubs and…
DC: I mean the pubs in Hertford were notorious, I mean, even Walls used to be a pub. Oh there were loads of pubs in Hertford, the old Coffee Pot, oh there were loads of them, yeah.
JR: But you remember The Green before the bus station do you?
DC: Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.
MC: Well, of course because they lived on that because of the fish and chip shop was down in that area.
DC: Yeah, that's right, yeah.
MC: He was born in Railway Street.
JR: Right.
MC: You know, where Barclays Bank is.
JR: Barclays, yes, yes.
MC: Well just along there, there was little cottages and he was born in one of them.
JR: Oh, what near where Joan Neale used to live, she is no longer with us now.
MC: Yes, yes.
JR: Just long there somewhere?
DC: Pardon?
JR: Just along there somewhere, near The Duncombe.
DC: Yes, The Duncombe is just around the corner isn't it, yeah. Because The Duncombe used to be a very small pub.
JR: Yes, and right up on the pavement wasn't it?
MC: Joan Neale was Joan Dye, wasn’t she, Joan Neale was Joan Dye and she married Ron Neale.
DC: That's right, married one of my mates Ron Neale, yeah. He was in the army with me actually, yeah, because he died, he’s dead now.
MC: He was born in one of them.
JR: So, what number was that, you were born in.
DC: Pardon?
JR: What number, do you know?
MC: Well it's funny he came, he went and did a job in there for somebody, didn't you?
DC: Oh, yeah, funnily enough, yes.
MC: And they said, I’m sure they…
DC: I will tell you what it used to be, it used to be Stan Mansfield’s greengrocers. can you remember that?
JR: No, but I can easily find out.
DC: Well, that is what it used to be. Anyway, they wanted a job done they wanted the ceiling redone, and I didn't realise it at the time. So, we went in there to do this ceiling and I suddenly realised, this is probably the room where I was born.
JR: Oh, wonderful.
DC: Yeah, I did, yeah. Well, we done the ceiling anyway. It was quite a surprise you know, to go in there again. Yeah, yeah. I can't remember and then my mother used to keep a second-hand clothes shop like, along there.
MC: Yes, you did.
JR: Your mother?
DC: Yeah, yeah. Not quite past, just past The Duncombe.
JR: Not Mills?
DC: Pardon?
JR: Mills?
MC: Oh, this would be in in the ‘20s.
DC: Second-hand clothes shop she used to keep, I can remember, just remember it. I must have been pretty young.
JR: Quite near The Duncombe?
DC: Yeah, yeah, just passed The Duncombe.
JR: Well, we had somebody who did interview for us called Ronald Mills, and he lives out at Bramfield now.
DC: Oh, I know, Ron Mills, yeah.
MC: That's right.
DC: He was in the army with me.
MC: He had a shop along there.
JR: He said she had a second-hand shop.
DC: Yes, that's right.
MC: They had a shop along there, yeah, that was during the war, that was there…
JR: He's a big lad, isn’t he?
MC: You see, they moved to Castle Street before he was 5, so…
JR: So it might have been Mrs Mills who took over your….
MC: Might have been, yes.
JR: Oh, right,
DC: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
JR: Oh, that's interesting.
DC: A small world, innit?
JR: Oh, it is yes. This is good, this is very good. Yes, so…
DC: It used to be a pretty rough town in those days, very rough, very rough.
JR: But The Green was almost a community on its own wasn't it, which was…
DC: Where, where the shopping centre is now, that was all The Green. All of that was The Green, used to come to the edge of the river and the idea of it was Jewsons used to be down there. Jewsons, and they used to unload and load timber there, out of the barges. I can remember that. There barges were pulled by horses in those days, yeah, but um, The Green was very notorious, should keep away from there.
JR: And yet those people we are spoken to who lived in The Green seemed to think it was perfectly alright. It was the people who don't live in The Green that were worried about going in there.
DC: Yeah, that's right yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Well, actually most of those people in The Green moved up to Hornsmill when that estate was built and of course they never had bathrooms in The Green, and they had bath…
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