Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Church, Fred (O2001.3) |
| Interviewee | Fred Church (FC) |
| Interviewer | Eddie Roche (ER) |
| Date | 01/01/2001 |
| Transcriber by |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O2001.3
Interviewee: Fred Church (FC)
Date: 2001
Venue: Eddie Roche’s front room
Interviewer: Eddie Roche (ER)
Transcribed:
typed by: Mark Green
******** = unclear recording
Italics = transcribers notes
[queries, notes] = other material
ER: Well hello this is Eddie Roche talking to his friend Fred Church in our front room, this is the first one of these I have done, and I hope it comes out alright. Well Fred, it is nice having you here with us and let's hope this tape works out alright.
FC: Well that makes two of us, it is my first time I have ever done it as well so something should come out of it.
ER: Going back right to the start, I believe you are a Hertford man.
FC: Yes, born and bred.
ER: For many years I thought you were a Ware person until you put me straight on that. Could you tell us a bit about where and when you were born in Hertford?
FC: There should be a blue plaque on the wall at number 13 Cromwell Road because that is where I was born. My birth certificate, according to one of the doctors suggested that my father delivered me, but I rather doubt that because he fainted at the sight of blood. As I say I lived in Cromwell Road and my parents, mother and father came from East London, Stratford, West Ham area.
Dad was a Cockney because they said he was born within the sound of Bow Bells. He was a very keen West Ham supporter which I must point out otherwise he’d tell me off when I meet him again. Dad was on the railway at Stratford and eventually I suppose it was a promotion he was in charge of the engine shed at Hertford East station repairing steam trains to keep them running, and generally in charge of this end of the line.
ER: At what time, at what date would that be then Fred?
FC: When he moved down from London.
ER: Roughly.
FC: I was born in Hertford, so he probably moved down towards the end of the First World War, he wasn’t him being a railway man it was a reserved occupation he didn't serve in the forces, just the steam engines in charge, in charge and I remember that if someone happened to drive into the level crossing gates at Ware, he had to get up in the middle of the night to come and supervise the repair and make things all in running order again in that direction.
ER: From what you have said so far Fred it would have been very nice to have done a tape of your mum and dad because it seems to me from the little bit that you have said, he had quite an interesting life of his own, really.
FC: You could say that.
ER: So, did mum stay at home and…?
FC: Mother stayed at home. Mother's job is to stay home and raise a family. My brother's…
ER: You had a brother.
FC: Two brothers and a sister they were all nine to ten/eleven years older than myself. I was an afterthought I think Dad went down to the Millbridge Inn one Sunday lunch time, and he came home and straight to bed and here I am!
(laughter)
ER: Which was often the case on a Sunday afternoon, a lot of men had been to the pub I think that they came home and I think that was the sort of thing for Sunday afternoon they went to bed and yes things certainly did hap…and you had two brothers and one sister?
FC: I definitely wasn't planned. My second brother built me my first bicycle out of all sorts of odds and ends it was an enormous thing with a 28 inch frame and wheels and I had to have wooden blocks on the pedals to even reach the pedals. (laughter) And the first trip he insisted I cycle down to Watford and back one Sunday morning to see my grandma so that was my first introduction to cycling.
ER: I should think that was quite an uncomfortable trip for a little lad on a bike that big, and you had a sister as well.
FC: Yes, yes. Mary was, she used to walk me to school make sure I got my sugar sandwiches for lunch, I used to love sugar sandwiches. I must have one of those again.
ER: When you say lunch was that your elevenses or was that your dinner?
FC: I think we had all kinds of, for dinner now and again.
ER: And school was 8…
FC: I started in infants was the… All Saints infant school next to All Saints Church which I believe is now somewhere quite different.
ER: Yes, I think it is.
FC: And at 8 years old you went on up to Abel Smith. Major Upton was in charge then, fine English gentleman I would have dearly love to a grown up and been like him.
ER: He was ..he was the headmaster at Abel Smith at that time which would have been in the sort of in the mid-20s, something like that?
FC: I went to school in 1929 to the infant school and three years later in ’32, I was at Abel Smith, we had teachers like Miss Thear [Name spelling taken from Blake, Thora (O1991.5)] was the headmistress of the infants, Miss Peck, Miss Praxford who had a face to match her name. They were all very domineering.
ER: Fearsome people.
FC: Fearsome people. Because at Abel Smith Miss Baker was there, and Miss Baker loved everyone, and she was loved by everyone and lived to a quite ripe old age in Currie Street. And at Abel Smith I started doing homework to sit the exams for the Hertford grammar school and I got a bit cheesed off with that and realised that I could sit the exam for Ware Central School without doing all this homework and chose that route. Another plus for Ware Central School was that it was a school for boys and girls, it was mixed and that was an added attraction.
ER: Do you think that this was where you first got an eye for the female sex, and also that so many people I know say ‘oh, he is a Ware chap’ and it is probably where this originated was when you took off to Ware for your Secondary Education.
FC: Going to Ware still on my grotty old bike, basically I managed to save up 3 pounds 19 and sixpence to buy my first Halford bicycle and that was a red-letter day. As I said I went to Ware Central School and palled up with one or two fellows there. One in particular lived in Star Street and I was able to leave my bicycle with him and just walk round to the school. Norman Murphy, he was also keen on the Boy Scouts and introduced me to the scout troop there. So, essentially I almost became a man of Ware in that respect. I used to go cycling as a hobby, used to go cycling miles and miles with Jack Bowman during the school holidays, 50, 60, 70 miles a day.
ER: You were pretty fit in those days Fred, as you still are.
FC: I think that built my heart up and made something of it to keep me going until the present day.
ER: And how long were you at Ware Secondary Modern, that’s the time you got interested in the Air Cadets?
FC: What happened with the Air Cadets was that…the second or perhaps the first or the second year of the war it was decided to inaugurate the Air Training Corps and the headmaster, Mr Evans, at Ware Central School sent out invitations to all his ex-pupils of a certain age to support the nucleus of the new Squadron at Ware. One or two teachers became instructors and officers. I enjoyed Ware Central School because Central School it was in between elementary and grammar, after being called a Central School it was called a Secondary Modern and then that progressed to Comprehensive, I imagine. We had our teachers at Ware Central. Mr Evans the Headmaster himself was an ex-Aston Villa player. So, he was very keen on sports and three of the teachers played for Ware Town, something of the record I would imagine.
ER: So, did Ware Secondary Modern or Ware Central School, you know, with all this encouragement, did they have a very good football team?
FC: Yes, they were into school cup games of course, invariably the final was between Ware Central and Hitchin Grammar. We were pretty well even at the end of the day, I think.
ER: I should think also that Hitchin Grammar was probably a bigger school with more boys to pick from?
FC: Yes, yes.
ER: But as you say having a headmaster who was an ex-professional footballer and three Ware Town players on the staff there was total encouragement of that sort in that area. Having dodged the homework at Abel Smith and avoided the grammar school did you have to do homework when you got to Ware Central?
FC: Yes, yes, yes. Still got some of the books. I did read well at the school but being a bit impetuous it was a couple of months before I was due to sit what was known as the Royal Society of Arts exams then, sort of the ‘O’ levels of its day, I was offered employment with Mr Morrell in St. Andrews Street, Hertford as an apprentice sign-writer. And 7/6d a week seemed too good to miss, so I went to the headmaster and got special permission to leave before taking the exams. Mr Evans was quite upset he said you can do much better than that, he said, but anyway my mind was made up and I took on this apprenticeship job.
ER: What year was that Fred?
FC: That was 1939, April 39 and how I got recommended for the apprenticeship was that Mr Woodhouse from Ware, a St John’s man used to take the Scouts for their artist badge, he was working for Mr Morrell as well, he recommended me to Mr Morrell having seen my art in the artist badge that I might be someone worth hiring for the apprenticeship.
ER: So, you have always had this sort of artistic talent from…
FC: Yes, well it is a flair.
ER: Yes, yes, from the very beginning. I was going to ask you about how you became to be involved with Mr Morrell. That was, did you ever regret that you didn’t sort of stay on at school?
FC: Not, I think, I was, I was a bit impetuous still it would have been nice to have certificates but…
ER: 7/6d seem more appealing at the time.
FC: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
ER: So that was 1930…
FC: ’39, April.
ER: ...and you went to work for Mr Morrell and
FC: War was declared in September six months after I had started.
ER: And you were how old then Fred?
FC: Coming up to my 15th birthday when I left school.
ER: That is where you started on this long career. Many people used to say to me ‘oh, I know Fred Church, he is the man who is up the ladder painting the, doing all the shop signs and of course I believe you did a shop sign for our shop many years ago I think you saw it laying in the yard one day. You went to Mr Morrell as an apprentice sign-writer in 1939.
FC: Yes, it was a three-year apprenticeship, yes. That’s right. 7 /6d the first year, 12/6d the second, 17/6d the third.
ER: And was it a sort of apprenticeship where you learnt purely by watching, listening or did you go to college of any sort?
FC: No, no. It was just the day’s employment, quite often it was just sitting down with the board and getting to master the brush and the strokes the graduating the letters.
ER: So it was a long arduous process, I suppose you had to spend a lot of your own leisure time, practising?
FC: No, not really, no. In 8 hour days you had probably done enough in 8 hours, interspersed with helping, Mr Morrell used to take on decorating jobs as well now and again, a ceiling or two to wash off…
ER: So, you were involved in other aspects of his business I suppose.
FC: It helped pay the way.
ER: I suppose you sort of like most trainee lads in those days it was your job to go round and help him put the ladders or whatever up whatever. If he was doing a shop sign, I suppose really that could be for somebody up on doing that sort of work at times could be considerably quite dangerous if some little old lady came along with a pram and somebody was up the ladder, give it a clout and that sort of thing. Because in those days more from what I have understood it more shopkeepers had their shop signs, sign written as opposed to the modern plastic….
FC: There weren't too many plastic fascias. All hand painted.
ER: And apart from doing shop signs because there was a lot of work say doing school boards, say at the grammar school or places like Haileybury?
FC: There was a whole spectrum of signs. County Council boards ‘keep out’ ‘don't do this’, ‘do that’ and they always had wooden letters that had to be gilded every year whether they were tatty or not until the war came, and gold became a bit harder to get, and the contract fizzled out a little bit.
ER: So, signwriting in itself is quite a varied and…
FC: Oh yes.
ER: ….every job like many other jobs, everything is different, so plenty of variety in that job
FC: Yes, yes, yes.
ER: And you were with Mr Morrell for this the three-year apprenticeship, and how soon into the war were you called up?
FC: I had to register for national service in 1942. Before that time I had done a couple of years in the ATC which helped considerably when it came to wanting to join the RAF for pilot training. During those 2 years we were also attached to the Home Guard to help with their preparations for any invasion, and that included climbing three water towers in the Ware area one at Moles Farm on the Wadesmill Road, the other one at Old Hall Green and the third one at the top of Musley Hill.
ER: Right at the top there, Tower Road or…
FC: Tower Road, yes. The object was, if the invasion bells are gone, our place was to go to the water towers and climb up to the top armed with Aldous signalling lamps and set up a communication system to let the Home Guard know on the ground what was happening. I can’t see how…
ER: So, at the ripe young age of 18 then Fred, you could have been held responsible for the defence of Ware from the invading Germans.
FC: Some people with Panzer tanks circling round the bottom of the water tower, Indian fashion, it might have been a bit hairy so I am quite glad they didn’t come.
ER: I think we're going to have a little pause there if we can, I don’t know. [Pause] So, Fred having sorted out the Germans at Ware water tower you, this was at the outbreak of the war and I suppose you were, by this time you'd started work.
FC: Oh yes, yes. Well into that. I had finished my apprenticeship by this time ’42.
ER: I don't know if we are going over the same ground again, but you were at Ware Secondary Modern School and you had this artistic flair and you had to decide whether to stay on and take your exams or take the enticement of seven and six pence a week to be an apprentice to Mr Morrell sign-writer and decorator from Hertford.
FC: That’s right.
ER: And the lure of seven and sixpence seemed to shine brighter than the thought of doing exams again so you went to work for Mr Morrell then, for 3 years, and you studied hard I hope under his tutorage in all aspects of the sign-writing business.
FC: That signwriting, graining, gilding, that is the size of it, yes.
ER: And interspersed with little bit of interior decorating as the need arose to supplement the income of the business.
FC: You put the tools on the back of the carrier on your bicycle and cycle up to places like Haileybury College, as far as Walkern to sign-write for Mr Sworder’s buses, so you covered a big area mostly on push bike.
ER: So, when you talk about people like Mr Sworder’s buses, these are all names from the past, aren’t they? Another family business, well respected business, you know having to cycle up to Haileybury perhaps on a wet day, or on a winter's day of some sort, nowadays people just jump into a car or a van and that would be it.
FC: You never knew what the weather was like until you got up high on Hertford Heath.
ER: So, when the war came, you were at this sort of age where you had to enlist and what happened to you then Fred?
FC: Conscription was at the age of 18 and depending on which service and which trade you were going in for depends sometimes you called up quite quickly and other times there would be a deferment, as in my case, I wasn't called up until 1943 and went to aircrew reception centre in Regent's Park London where you are on parade and personally I had to have two haircuts in two days because the first one wasn't short enough. Used to bribe the barber to not to take too much off and then realise that the person you bribed was the sergeant who was going to send you for another haircut the next day.
ER: So the involvement with the Air Force more or less came about because when you were younger you'd been in the ATC was a good lever to get you into the air force and the ATC in fact had stood you in good stead in the time that you were in the Air Force.
FC: Yes, it was a good background to start with.
ER: Having got up to London to sign on as it were and join up, what do they do with you?
FC: First it was ITW, initial training which was all groundwork. Bookwork and navigation, meteorology and various subjects of that ilk and of course being in the Air Force you weren't posted near home. They sent me to St Andrews in Scotland, and they put us up in the Grand Hotel of all places which wasn't so grand under the RAF’s jurisdiction. We had three months there, and from there we went to grading school which was at Perth, and there you were graded. We had 8 hours flying, the next time you were graded either as pilot, navigator or bomb aimer and then went on various courses eventually to qualify for those roles.
ER: So it was quite a long drawn-out process really.
FC: Yes, yes, even after grading school there is still a long way, well you had several mundane jobs waiting for a posting to a flying school. It was 1945, January ‘45 I was posted to America. There were several British flying training schools. We turned up at Liverpool, just after Christmas, Christmas 1944, all my friends were armed with Christmas cakes. We had taken our own Christmas cakes, we had a feast for a little while and at Liverpool we were embarked upon the Mauretania, the idea being the big liners like the Mauretania and the Elizabeth could dash across the Atlantic tout de suite without
ER: More chance of avoiding the doodlebugs?
FC: Being caught by submarines because they were faster than the submarines. Whether you met one head on another matter I believe. On board you had sort of jobs to occupy your time. My particular job was standing by an 8mm *** gun and keep my eyes open for submarine periscopes often in the middle of the night so I don't know how I would have spotted anything, and whether I could have fired the gun was another matter as well. I didn't have a clue.
Anyway we got to Nova Scotia and another transit camp, and from there we were given the choice of which flying school we wanted to go to, one of which was Miami which to the likes of us sounded a brilliant idea, so we volunteered for that. To our dismay it turned out to be Miami, Oklahoma instead of Miami, Florida but in the event it was very hospitable little town that looked after us during our leisure hours. From January to September the flying training and when we finally managed to qualify and collect our wings on the wings parade.
ER: I would assume that being over in America that you had quite an enjoyable period of time there…
FC: Yes, that's right.
ER: …the Americans being generally known for their hospitality I believe you still retain quite a considerable number of links with the people you were training with and with one or two who actually lived in America?
FC: Still live there. Yes. The friendships continue and the exchange visits occasionally. We had two furloughs, 7-day leaves, the idea then was to get out onto the open road because we were actually stationed on
Tape side ends.
ER: I hope this works again on the other side we were just off down Route 66, the famous Route 66.
FC: Yes. Being in a strange uniform all you had to do was to put your thumb out and people used to, for a lift and people used to stop out of curiosity more than anything. To see which, whose side you were. I had to go to an American base one time to see a dentist and the American soldiers were having bets as to whether I was English or German because I happen to have eagles on my shoulder, and they were having bets to decide whose side I was actually on. So then…
ER: What were, what was the significance of the eagles?
FC: The RAF badge you had on your shoulder.
ER: Oh yes, I know, the shoulder badge.
FC: The shoulder badges. The other handicap with thumbing lifts even in war time America car tyres weren't as good quality as usual more often than not you’d get a few miles up the road and they would have a blow out and you spent more time helping them change the wheel then the progress you were making with the lift.
ER: So even for the Americans there were fuel restrictions.
FC: Oh yes.
ER: During the war because by this time they were heavily involved
FC: In the Far East.
ER: In the Far East and had to come over into the European war theatre.
FC: That’s right, yeah.
ER: So, you were in America until September, and by which time the time you were posted back to England, the war in Europe had finished and it was about the time of the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima I believe.
FC: Yes, yes, yes. So, it was dropped before we left America, I think. So, we came back on the Queen Elizabeth, that was more of a pleasure cruise than an ordeal.
ER: I am interrupting you there Fred do you think it could be possible that these cruises across the Atlantic were the forerunners of your adventurous life travel in Europe in latter times?
FC: Er, no I don’t… Feel a yen for travelling, yes, it could have been but uh…
ER: So, we had a cruise back on the one of the great Queen liners…
FC: Yes, it was all in its war paint still and very primitive, it wasn't a luxury accommodation anyway. We didn’t have any, I’d learnt my lesson going across when they were dealing out chores I managed to keep my head down so I didn't have any jobs to do on the way home.
ER: I don't suppose there was anything luxurious about coming back on the Queen and when you got back to England I suppose it was a feeling that we've done that but we're not going to be used and they put you to work doing other things though for a period of time.
FC: Yes, we trained, finished up loading and unloading transport planes in Wiltshire before coming up for demobilization in 1947.
ER: And so two things there Fred, in 1947 did you go back to Mr Morrell?
FC: Yes.
ER: and a career in the…
FC: sign writing
ER: sign writing world and bringing in another little subject very close to both our hearts. Had you, had you dare I say met Olive by this time?
FC: I met Olive on.., having fallen in and out of love several times in America and been halfway around the world I came all the way back to Hertford, and met Olive at a NALGO [National and Local Government Officers' Association] dance that’s County Hall dance at the Shire Hall while I was on demob leave. I went along with a friend and we took a shine to these two young ladies. Actually, my Olive preferred my friend for the time being, but he wanted her friend so, we ended up as jolly good company and haven't looked back since.
ER: I must say interrupting you again Fred, I know that you have now been married to Olive for over 50 years I think this, the occasion was last year some time, I must say that Fred and Olive have been very good friends to a lot of people over that period of time, and it has been one of those marriages from my experience that has endured everything and Olive is much loved by everyone who knows her.
FC: Exactly.
ER: And I think Fred was a very lucky chap to be able up to pick her up, as and when he did to be able to hold onto her so, you met Olive and were hard at work courting and hard at work with Mr Morrell. And I know that at some time along the line you parted company with Mr Morrell, l but I think you stayed with him for a while after?
FC: Yes, quite a while. We were, Olive and I married in ’49, and I set up business on my own in 1952, and I was still with him for another 4 or 5 years before that.
ER: Do you ever, that was a big step for anybody, as I know myself, to break away from working for someone to set up on your own and of course being married and all that goes with that is not always an easy step to take. It worked out in the long run not easy though.
FC: In the first instance I went into partnership with Mr Woodhouse from Ware who had introduced me to the trade in 1939, but that only lasted for 6 months because Mr Woodhouse preferred to have a 8 to 5 job, rather than be on call to Tom, Dick and Harry as you are when you are self-employed.
ER: Was it one of those things where you found out that you were doing the bulk of the work?
FC: No, no.
ER: Or he just wanted set hours.
FC: He just wanted set hours.
ER: And he was comfortable with what he earnt in that period of time. You were probably a little bit more ambitious, and wanting to get on.
FC: I was that bit younger, we was still riding around on bicycles in fact I didn't have a van until 1958, so I was still going round Hertfordshire with me tools on the back of the bike I don't know how I managed it now.
ER: By which time you were married, children on the way then Fred?
FC: Not until 1953 when Geoffrey was born, didn't know about the birds and the bees until then, then Michael was born in ‘55 and then we had a little bit of a gap and then David was born in 1962, so he is an afterthought in the same way as me, but I didn’t have to go to the pub to [laughter] find David.
ER: ‘Cos by the early sixties through working hard, you've got your family and you’d got to the stage when you were able to take the big step of purchasing your own house up in Bengeo, and for most of us who have bought a house a massive thing particularly with the worry of children, for yourself.
FC: It’s another big step forward. We had been looking around a little and what really pushed us into that direction was that good friends up in Sele Farm had been given a house on the Molewood Estate by his mother and we just thought they are not going to get away with that so we managed to buy the one, put a deposit, on the one next door to him, and we have been there for 40 odd years, coming up 40 years now and it is a lovely area and the people, Olive’s returned to Bengeo which is where she has lived since she was a year old, and we wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
ER: And in reality you had become part of Bengeo, there are not many people not boasting on your behalf or anything, but there are not many people around Bengeo who don't know Fred and Olive Church [laughter] because you have involved yourself in lots of things in, within the community, and within the town itself. I can think of things like the friends of Evron when that started up many years ago, you were one of the leading promoters and great believer in the Entente Cordiale, put it that way.
[Transcribers note: Hertford is twinned with Evron in France and Wildeshausen in Germany]
FC: Yes, I think that crossed my mind when I was in the States and I thought the best way to world peace, I'm probably sticking my neck out here, as there is a United States of America to have the United States of Europe, which I have always thought might be a good idea but there are so many different divisions in Europe it is difficult to achieve. Went along with Eddie *** with the Friends of Evron, the town twinning, and that has been a wonderful experience. More new friends you can get on the ‘phone and in your best French say bonjour to Andre and his wife Nelly and in straight back comes “Ah, it's Fred” [Laughter] from someone in the middle of the Europe recognising…
ER: Recognises your English French accent.
FC: Recognises my croak, I suppose.
ER: But I know when you have been in holiday in France from what I have seen of it, you have always wanted to mix in with some of the locals and learn more about the people around about there, and it is through things like that, that things like the friends of Evron still flourishes well today with one or two of old original hands like yourself still involved in it, and of course you was at one time you were quite deeply involved with the local art society, both as a painter in your own right and on the administrative side, as Fred always prepared to lend a hand one way or the other.
FC: Probably better than that, and then there is an artists, but anyway, that was in Bill Dales time.
ER: Yes, he was another…
FC: Stalwart.
ER: …stalwart.
FC: Not everybody's cup of tea, but his heart was in the right place.
ER: Well it certainly for the Hertford Art Society which, which, the local yearly art display that was put on that was always a big attraction not only for people in the town but people came from a long way away and if it hadn't been for people like Bill Dale and Fred Church and one or two more in that organisation, there probably wouldn’t have flourished as well as it is flourishing today, because gradually you get a bit older and you want to drop some of these things off, or not want to be so heavily involved in things but be involved to a certain extent as you get nearer sort of the retirement ages and things like that. Your interests become a little bit different and as we slow down, I suppose. You used to do a lot of sports of various sorts badminton and all things like that but…
FC: Oh yes, I played badminton last night and won all three games.
ER: Did you? You surprise me Fred. I thought you'd got, you know slowed down a little bit I know you are interested one of the local cribbage teams, amongst and probably got lots of other things to do, apart from the fact that you have got grandchildren that take up a certain amount of time and give you an awful lot of pleasure, and involvement still with the family, and there are always people to see and visit.
FC: Yes. I have always been very fortunate with friends and with family as you say never a dull moment, really.
ER: So, what do you think really, Fred, looking back if I can say that to you now, about Hertford and your opinion over the years, the changes, the…
FC: Well it has changed but not necessarily for the better. It changed of course with the influx of large stores which gave the elbow to lots of small businesses. I still feel guilty if I don't use the shops on the local estate and give them a leg up, having been a one-man business, you know the difficulties of running and keeping your head above water. I’m still a big advocate of supporting local little shops, even if it cost a bit more money.
ER: The trouble is that most people want a…
FC: The convenience.
ER: …the convenience of the big stores. I must say I agree with you. I grew up and remember just after the war there was this big rumour going around that Tesco's were going to build a store where the castle cinema used to be, and the shake went through some of the small shopkeepers in the town as to what would happen to them, way back in those days.
FC: I think Mrs MacFarlane, was it Mrs MacFarlane?
ER: There was a Mrs MacFarlane, yes.
FC: I think she managed to keep Marks and Spencer's out of the town.
ER: Yes, I remember MacFarlane’s they had a drapery shop…
[Transcribers note: MacFarlane’s Drapers at 2 and 3 Market Place].
FC: By the Shire Hall.
ER: …by the Shire Hall near where the Bradford and Bingley and East Herts Electricals is nowadays. I think I have to agree with you that in recent times we have seen a lot of changes in the town
FC: Bates were taken over by Welwyn Stores for a while.
[Transcribers note: Bates the Grocers, in the ‘Egyptian’ building now occupied by Lussmanns fish and grill restaurant].
ER: That’s true.
FC: And, er, now a restaurant like many. Hertford is thriving on restaurants, isn't it? And along the Ware Road was Mr Johnson, which was a very salubrious butcher. He had the first
chromium plated shop front in Hertford, I believe.
ER: Yes. I remember Mr Johnson.
FC: But the likes of Johnson’s and Bates were a little bit pricier than Mum and Dad could afford, I think Mum was a great co-operative lady. In fact her, the dividends she got in 1936 enabled me to go on a cruise to Norway with the school for five pounds and nineteen and sixpence or whatever it was.
ER: A cruise to Norway that was, was that on one of these sort of, what they would call ferry boats?
FC: No, this was a, ex-troop ship.
ER: A troop ship from the first war.
FC: From the First World War, the Nevassa, Nevasa but they told us on the way back they didn't tell us before we went, on the way back they said it's on its way back to the breakers yard. I think they built a new Nevasa for the Second World War. But that was destined for the breakers yard. We all slept over the top of the mess tables in hammocks, we had to put our hammocks up every night. That was an adventure with Mr Trevena the art master who survives to this day.
[The tape is poor quality. It sounds as though Fred is referring to the Nevasa, built in 1912 for the British India Steam Navigation Company, and converted to a troopship in 1914. In 1925 she was permanently rebuilt as a troopship and was used for both school children’s trips and troop carrying in the 1930s. She was scrapped in 1948, not the late ‘30’s as Fred was led to believe. A new Nevasa was built, as a troopship, in 1955 and like her predecessor was subsequently used for educational cruise trips].
ER: He must be fair age. I know we said earlier on that sometimes our instructors weren't that much older than ourselves.
FC: He has just had his diamond wedding, and still gives me top marks for the congratulations card that I sent him.
ER: I am not surprised at that having seen a few of your gifted pieces of handiwork around this household. I think that most people would say that you are a very gifted man Fred.
FC: I am fortunate in that respect. It all came from my Uncle Tom, he was the only artist in the family. He served in the first world war in the Royal Navy, died at a young age I’m afraid. Never knew him really.
ER: So, was he killed on active service?
FC: I can't quite recall whether it was active service or just died a natural death. I have still got a clock with a card from when he was in the Royal Navy. Not sure, it wants a little attention to make it tick again.
ER: Well Fred I think I have pushed you as far as I can. Thanks for doing the tape for me and for the History Society, perhaps I might come back and ask you to do a little bit more because while we have had the tape off, I've learnt a lot more about you.
FC: Yes, we have gone around the, backwards and forwards a little bit.
ER: We have gone backwards and forwards a little bit I don't think that all together will matter
FC: I dedicate to my brother who made me my first bicycle. He was, he went missing in the North Sea on a bombing raid over Germany in World War II.
ER: That's a good thought, that is Fred.
FC: That’s my friend David, my brother David.
ER: This is things that only people like you know about. He was a Hertford man as well wasn't he?
FC: Yes, yes.
ER: So, would his name be on the memorial?
FC: It is on the memorial, yes, yes.
ER: So, there is another connection with Hertford, and we close the tape and Fred I will play it back on my tape recorder and see what’s there.
FC: Some people remembered David he used to, Dave delivered bread from the co-op on a horse and cart up at Hertford Heath, and they remember him. That might be…
ER: There is a thought for the future for someone else might bring his name to bear.
FC: Yes.
Tape ends.