Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Bunyon, Sidney and Philip (O1999.11) |
| Interviewee | Sidney Bunyan (SB) Philip Bunyan (PB) |
| Interviewer | Jean Riddell (Purkis) (JR) Mary Ollis (MO) |
| Date | 02/07/1999 |
| Transcriber by | Mark Green |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O1999.11
Interviewee: Sidney Bunyan (SB) Philip Bunyan (PB)
Date: 2 July 1999
Venue: 14 Highfield Road
Interviewer: Jean Riddell (JR), Mary Ollis (MO)
Transcriber: Mark Green
Typed by: Mark Green
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
JR: This is Jean Riddell speaking it’s the second of July 1999 and I am again at Mary Ollis’ house, 14 Highfield Road with Sidney and Phillip Bunyan.
So I think then we will start with West Street and you were going to tell us about some of the characters you remember. One was Silbey?
SB: Silbey, he was a boot repairer but he was a cripple.
JR: Oh.
SB: He used to wear a cork boot you know like one all up to there.
JR: Past his ankle.
SB: Shorter, and he used to go about he was the first one that I ever saw they used to have like a tricycle and a chair and you pulled it up and down.
JR: I know yes.
SB: And then as time went on he had that done away with and had a motor put in the back of it, so it was motor driven like a car so he used to drive about in it. He used to go down to the congregational church on a Sunday in it, and he used to go about the town because he used to do Gravesons repairs and he’d always come down on a Saturday like to the shoe department, Mr Clark, to get his money from what he had done during the week.
JR: Right.
SB: You know he used to book it all against us, then we had to check it with our book and then he was paid.
JR: Right. So did he do all the work in West Street. He had a workshop there did he?
SB: Oh yeah, he lived there and worked there. Yes.
JR: Yes, yes. So did he have…
SB: He had...
JR: Yeah, go on.
SB: ...one son and two daughters, and one of the daughters she was the first woman that I knew of that started doing boot fairing. She used to do the finishing on the machine, because her father couldn't stand up to it you know because you've got to stand up like to the top of there and put the shoes on you know it.. sandpaper and then abrasives and things. She used to, you know, be quite a nice girl and used to help him quite a lot. And then she married a fellow who, I can't think what his name was now, but he was the booking clerk at Hertford East, the station.
JR: Yes, yes. Now this Silbey, did he have a shop window down there, was he in a house with a shop window? I mean could you...
SB: Well it was like a bay window.
JR: Yes, yes.
SB: But it wasn't open to the public you know because he was working in that window and they used to like have to come in the door, which was at the side and he sat down there as it were, and he used to like talk to a man… the window was there.
JR: But you could take shoes in as an individual? Yes?
SB: People took them privately as well as we took them to Gravesons. It is only like doing them for the Gravesons and he, as I say, went to the Congregational church and it would be, I don’t know we will have to ask her when she comes back, whether it would be her grandfather, I suppose. There were two brothers as I remember them the Roses. Sydney Rose and what was it, Edward, the other one. They’d be her great grandfather I suppose, would they?
JR: Well, yes, perhaps great uncle the other one, would it be, or…?
SB: Because one lived in Trinity Grove up in Bengeo then. Of course she had they had a daughter there and they had a daughter down at the other one - they each had a daughter.
JR: Oh, yes. So did they, where they to do with the Congregational Church as well then?
SB: One of them.
JR: One was...
SB: Not the one that lived at Bengeo, that would be, I don't know, Sydney…or would it...
JR: Oh we will ask Mary when she comes back, we will go back to that
SB: I am not sure of his name but I dare say, ****** they were either her grandfather's brother you know the other one or her great grandfather (laughs). I don't know which it would be.
JR: Which generation, no.
SB: Best ask her when she comes back because I am interested to know which she, how far up the tree she is as it were.
JR: Yes, I know it's confusing isn't it, because there’s, not only is there Ollis but there's also Evan Marks comes into it as well doesn’t he with Mary's tree as well as the Roses and Field as well, I sometimes do get mixed up with them.
SB: Miss Marks was of course a maiden lady and used to ride a tricycle around Luton, around Hertford I can remember riding out and she was a real local character, you know. They always had the jewellers shop there you know as long as I can remember. Well my brother worked there the whole of his life. He done 60 years there (laughs).
JR: Yes, yes, that’s right.
SB: I mean it was a…
JR: Yes. Now this photograph I have brought back for you to look at. That was a firm called Geering and Tregasters was that right?
SB: Who?
JR: Geering and Tregasters.
SB: Geering and Tregaskiss, yes.
JR: Tregaskiss, sorry, yes. And that was at the bottom of Pegs Lane and we have done a bit of research and we have found out that I think before this firm it was Crawleys. Do you remember anything about? You don't remember anything about that, no.
SB: No.
JR: I think this is in the same place.
SB: There used to be Archer the older Iron merchant.
JR: Right, Archers.
SB: On the other side of Pegs Lane. Not their side, the further side they used to like people used to go round and collect you know...
JR: Scrap iron?
SB: ...rags and bottles of what was brought to them.
JR: Right and this was on the West Street side then of Pegs Lane.
SB: Pardon?
JR: This was on the West Street side of Pegs Lane...was it?
SB: Ah...it was on the cor….it’s a bit tricky to...
JR: On the corner of, if Pegs Lane is coming down like this was it on this corner?
SB: Pegs Lane didn't go direct into West Street.
JR: No it went into Castle Street.
SB: Castle Street and then you walked like across the square which was in front of that...
JR: Oh I get it, yes, yes.
SB: ...that was on the corner that was quite a big place you know decorating place. Well you can see it must have been two hund... they had a lot of men there.
JR: Yes. yes and they were in fact coachbuilders weren’t they, this firm?
SB: Or connected with coachbuilders. I mean they done certain jobs as well. I can remember my father coming home when it was very cold and they got the doctor's phone (Phaeton?) or whatever it might be, not phone but what they used to drive round in they used to have to wash them before the doctor used them in the morning.
JR: Oh right so it was general maintenance of coaches,
SB: That’s right, yes.
JR: Yes, yes, yes. So if you worked there you would have to be either a wheelwright or a coachmaker or a painter or...
SB: You would have a skilled job of some sort. There was a few labouring fellows but most of them were...
JR: Right.
SB: ...and one of the sons of Geering, he had two sons, Tregaskiss don’t have any to my knowledge, but Geering had two sons and one of them became a dentist and he had a dentistry in Ware Road because I can remember going to him.
JR: Yes, and he was Geering as well.
SB: Pardon?
JR: He was Geering.
SB: Geering, yes. He was one of the sons.
JR: There was still some Geerings in town, in Hertford. I don't know whether they are descended from them.
SB: I should think it’s quite possible.
JR: I could find...in fact we had Mary.
SB: It is not a common name, is it?
JR: No, no.
SB: The other name is worse I think, Tregaskiss, I have never come about.
JR: No I haven't heard of that before. Well I will find out about that Geering. Right so they were at the end of Pegs Lane. Now, anything else about Silbey anything was he a popular man in the town or well known?
SB: He didn't do much you know public work or anything like, he only went to the congregational church.
JR: Yes ok right. He was a skilled man.
SB: And of course, one of the Roses you know her grandparents or her great-grand, he used to go to Congregational so I mean they knew each other.
JR: Yes. Oh we will ask Mary when she comes in about him then.
Now you have got down Nicholls Brewery, as well. You know something about Nicholls Brewery?
SB: Yes. That was just on as you come round from Castle Bridges and turn right to go up West Street that was straight away like a pub first.
JR: That was the Black Swan wasn't it?
SB: Yes. I couldn't remember but I would say that's quite likely. I shouldn't think there would be anything else there and that was Nicholls Brewery beside of it.
JR: Yes, yes. There was a Black Swan and I think one cottage which belonged to the Black Swan then the brewery and the house is still there now, the brewery house. So did you know anyone who worked there, did you know anyone who worked there, Nicholls Brewery?
SB: Yes I knew a Mr Webb who was a drayman. He used to drive a horse and cart you know well I don't know about cart, they wouldn't like me to call them carts.
JR: Dray wasn't it. Dray. What with barrels on it.
SB: Yes that's right. Yes. I mean as a child he used to interest us quite a lot as children, you know if you saw one in front of you, you get tag on the back to see where he was going and watching put the barrels down the cellar at various pubs you know, because we had a terrific amount of pubs in Hertford.
JR: They went down on shutes did they, inside.
SB: You had two flaps on the path. You opened them up and then you shot down there and then of course when the barrels were empty, they had a rope and a hook and somebody used to be at the top and pull, and one used to stand down at the bottom and push, to get the empty barrels out.
JR: It wasn't so bad getting the empties out was it because they were lighter yes, yes. Was there a brewery tap attached to the Nicholls Brewery?
SB: Was there a what?
JR: Brewery Tap, a little pub attached to it at all, at any time?
SB: I don't remember one.
JR: No. I just wondered because once at one stage during the last century there was a pub just around in that area called the Oddfellows Arms, and we wondered if it was a brewery tap for Nicholls. No you don't know that ok, right.
SB: No.
JR: So down West Street there was the Black Horse. That's always been there hasn't it?
SB: Yes.
JR: Yes, yes. What about the football ground did that…
SB: That was there, but you know a good way out, I should say a mile then turn right and go down the little hill and it laid low by the river.
JR: So it has been there a long time?
SB: Oh yes.
JR: It is still there now.
SB: Is it?
JR: It is, actually. Did you get crowds of people going along West Street to the match or do you ever notice anyone?
SB: Well I didn't notice it because I never used to go if I'm being truthful. See being in a shop you work Saturdays.
JR: Yes, so you couldn't get there.
SB: No, of course you didn't get to the matches unless it was an occasional Cup replay or something that I would go and see but that's about all.
JR: And no riots down West Street then at all.
SB: Pardon?
JR: No riots, when they lost or anything coming on from the football matches you didn't hear of any riots or bad…?
SB: No, no they were more orderly people…they were really. Mind you they never had, it wasn't thousands it was hundreds then you see.
JR: Well it is not many that go now [Sid laughs] it is very, very few actually, probably more went in those days than now. Yes, I just wondered about unruly behaviour or getting drunk in the Black Horse or anything like that but you…
SB: No.
JR: Ok, let's go on to the next one then Mr Studman, manager of Eastmans. Now where did he live?
SB: He lived up on the left nearly at the end of the cottages.
JR: Right, that is Somerset Terrace is it? Yes, those high up ones?
SB: That’s right.
JR: Somerset Terrace. That's why I think one has gone for £120,000 that area. Eastmans was what?
SB: Butchers shop at the corner of Honey Lane and Maidenhead Street, side of the International...
JR: Oh, so he was a butcher.
SB: He was a what?
JR: A butcher. Butcher.
SB: I mean they didn't do no slaughtering or anything in there because it was all cheap meat you know foreign. It wasn't all English nothing like that.
JR: No, so it wasn't was it one of the better butcher's shops or not?
SB: No, it wasn’t a high-class butchers. It was there all the while when I was young, but I don't remember my mother ever going there.
JR: So you've got here son, manager of Gravesons. So he was Gravesons’ manager’s son, was he? Studman?
SB: Studman. He used to be, he went like I did. He went to Gravesons as a lad and then when Mr Fuller who was the manager retired he took over. He didn't do it for many years but the latter part and then from then he went on as a messenger for Longmores, you know they used to have a uniform man, a scrap round here like a little sashay or whatever you call it.
JR: Documents.
SB: The messenger’s uniform. He used to, he done that for years after he retired.
JR: Oh right, ok so that he was the son of the manager of Gravesons is that right?
SB: Pardon?
JR: He was the son of the manager of Gravesons?
SB: No, no he wasn't, the manager of Eastmans.
JR: Ok right. Oh sorry I have got this the wrong way round I will sort that out later.
PB: Mr Studman’s son was the manager of Gravesons after Mr Fuller.
JR: Right so the butcher's son…
PB: The butcher's son became the manager of Gravesons.
JR: Thank you very much that is wonderful yes, my mistake. What about the Benson family? They live down in West Street, didn’t they?
SB: Well I didn't know much of them only that she was a person of means and as I say she tried to trace back the family tree I mean we didn't have no dealings with her, because we used to look upon West Street as one side with cottages and one side were you know quite much larger houses the right hand side I think it is still the same I don't know.
JR: Well there are some big ones on the left-hand side at the beginning but then it goes down to little ones yes, yes. Was she interested then just was it her own interests to do this, I mean or did one of your family ask her to do it?
SB: No, no it was their own. Oh no you wouldn't approach a person like that [Sid laughs] not that time of day. They were a cut above you [Sid Laughs] but she was quite a nice person. She was just interested to find out where the John Bunyan you know she could trace the tree because since then a cousin of mine has [Sid coughs] traced the other side of the family the Newlands he has got them back and back hundreds of years he has got that.
JR: Well, you might have been some relation to John Bunyan it is quite possible in some obscure way yes.
SB: Yes, it is possible.
JR: Yes, perhaps you would like to carry on. [all laugh]
PB: I mean I think a couple have tried and have got so far and then they have come to a dead end if you like. You can go round the churchyards and then you can go back in the sort of registers, but you get to a stage where it becomes quite difficult I think, or so I understand not that I've done it personally.
But this is what has happened and certainly my wife was on a course once and she met someone else who was had the name of Bunyan and she came up and said ‘oh, I traced’ or not she had, but her Father had traced it back, their family tree and she said would you like a copy to see if there’s any relationship if you like anywhere. And she sent us a copy but there was no one on there we knew of or was local to Hertford or anything like that at all so it was obviously a completely different strain.
JR: Yes, yes when did your, who first came to this town your family was it your grandfather or his father, or your father?
SB: No, they were already in the town. My father was in the town. I don't know where my gran… I think they came from Benington in the first place, because there was a crowd of Bunyan’s at Benington because they were in churchyard, I can't see them now.
PB: But we did go over there didn't we, and we had a look at some of the gravestones and there's quite a lot there is two or three local names that seem to sort of dominate the graveyard if you like of which Bunyan is one.
JR: Oh well I am just thinking you know I wondered. I mean was it Northampton where John Bunyan came from?
PB: Bedford was where he was imprisoned for his Pilgrim’s Progress efforts and there is a statue in Bedford of John Bunyan.
SB: Where was it he lived? Just outside Elstow?
PB: Elstow. Elstow was his actual cottage which is just a village which is now bypassed, it's sort of 2 miles outside of Bedford basically which is where he lived and it's got the plaque on the wall still. So it was John Bunyan's cottage and the town bridge has also got a plaque saying which is where the prison was on the town bridge saying that he was imprisoned there for 7 or 8 years I think it was.
SB: And, of course now there is a John Bunyan's Chapel there. They have still got haven’t they, up there?
JR: So if you could find one of your grandfathers or great grandfathers had come from Bedford at one stage that would be better wouldn't it give you a bit of a lead. Alright ok. So she didn't get, Miss Benson didn't make much progress then really. In fact we have got somebody called Edgar Lake who has done some research on the Benson family himself so he is going to give a talk to the history society next season, so that will be quite interesting won’t it. Yes because they were quite well documented I think the Bensons. Yes, alright.
SB: I think he was quite an active person you know took an interest in the town or all his people and of course they have got money which very few had [laughs].
JR: Yes, and a rich family. Do you want to tell me anything else about West Street is there anything else?
SB: Pardon?
JR: Is there anything else you need to tell me about West Street you can think of anyone you knew or events happening down there or…
SB: Well I knew of another family they were friendly with my sister but I can't tell you, her name was Dolly but that wasn't the name but it was quite a big family they lived up there on the left not ..before you get to the smaller cottages and they live there but there was quite a family, you know, there was two or three sons and a daughter.
JR: Was that between the Black Horse and those high cottages somewhere where there are about 5 cottages before aren’t there?
SB: Yes.
JR: Oh, there do you remember anything about a shirt factory there or…
SB: A church?
JR: A shirt factory? Shirt factory?
SB: Shirt factory. No.
JR: Because there was one just beyond the Black Horse, apparently where you are saying these people lived. You don't remember?
SB: No, never heard of it.
JR: And opposite to that in one of the houses opposite the Black Horse there was a collar factory apparently, so shirts were made one side and collars the other, according to what people have told us.
SB: I don't remember any of that in my time.
JR: Ok alright, what about up by the side for Black Horse there was an alley called Wallfields Alley.
SB: What alley?
JR: Wallfields Alley. Where you had a lot of rather very small cottages up there do you remember that?
SB: Wasn't Wallfields where the Roman Catholic Convent was?
JR: That was Leahoe.
SB: What name?
JR: Leahoe
SB: Oh, Leahoe, yes.
JR: Yes. Yes, yes, but beside the Black Horse apparently some little rather run-down cottages going up the alleyway but you probably never went up there did you.
SB: No. So there was a lot of these little yards in Hertford at that time you know just not there now, up St Andrew Street that used to be two or three of these yards, you know, Brewhouse Lane.
JR: Well that is still there. It is very posh now.
SB: Is it?
JR: Yes, you ought to go and have a look - extremely expensive housing.
SB: It used to be awful because all of the butcher yard is slaughterhouse down the bottom and the doors used to be open and I remember when I went down there with a cousin of mine he took me down there. They was killing bullocks and sheep and they have just got the doors open they didn't take notice of anybody and people who like lived round it and Half Moon they didn't take any notice. And they used to have pigs run around in the yard.
MO: We used to take our washing down there in a wicker basket. The washing lady, whose name I can't quite remember, she lived in Brewhouse Lane and that I do remember.
SB: Of course, then there was the Hertford cattle market. Of course, there isn't now. But of course the cattle market was at Hertford in Ware Road because that hasn't been done away with so many years. Because I can you know remember the cattle market because it used to give us children excitement on a Saturday driving pigs and bullocks through the street to the station to put them on the trains to go to the various places where they bought them you know but it was a well-known cattle market, quite big.
JR: Was that behind the Ram or was that?
SB: Near the Ram.
JR: Yes, yes that's right. There was a poultry market wasn't there as well I think, somewhere there?
SB: That was higher up in London Road near the Plough.
JR: The Plough that’s right yes. That’s right, yes. Len Green talks about that. I will just check the numbers on this so I know if I'm near the end of this side for, yes I am getting towards the end. Right. What about do you remember an alleyway in West Street called Petts Alley or Ivy Passage?
SB: No.
JR: That went down to the river from West Street to the river opposite the Black Horse about opposite the Black Horse.
SB: Yes, because the river occasionally used to freeze over in the winter if you had a severe winter because I went down there I remember, I remember going down there skating when I was about 16 or 18, 16.
JR: How did you get onto that river from where you were?
SB: You had to go down a lane from St Andrew Street down the side of St Andrew’s School.
JR: Oh, I know in Hertingfordbury Road was it?
SB: Yes.
JR: Yes, yes. Oh, I know Wareham, what we call Wareham's Lane I expect yes.
SB: See that brings you to the river on one side and West Street brings you to the other side of the river.
JR: Yes, yes. So there was access out of the back there was there? You would just walk through…
SB: You couldn’t get through from…
MO: Castle Street.
SB: … to West Street only over by St Andrews Church that was the only way across.
JR: Because there was a bridge there wasn't there somewhere a little bridge.
SB: There was two bridges as you went through from and there, then used to be a horse trough too on the path for the horses to drink out of.
JR: Yes, yes. We have got a picture of that. Oh right. Well what I think we'll do we have a minute or two more here but when we turn over the tape I will ask you about Hertingfordbury Road and McMullens and things like that I think that would be the best thing to do.
MO: Are you comfortable, dear?
JR: Yes, fine thank you yes, yes, yes. I’m alright yes. Do you remember anything about Pegs Lane itself? What kind of area was that when you were a boy can you remember?
SB: It was quite nice houses but they were right high up you know. It was all bricked all up or as high as this house and then you went up brick steps up there to them oh they were some nice houses up there because Miss Westrope lived in there.
MO: Yes, that was off Bullock’s Lane.
SB: She used to be a… keep a grocer’s shop - high class in Market Place.
JR: Yes yes. That was the other end of Pegs Lane.
MO: Where County Hall is now.
JR: Yes, yes, yes. Because at the bottom of Pegs Lane near there, there were some houses weren’t there, near here….
End of side one
Side two
MO: There before the one that was built in the 30s.
JR: Yes, yes.
MO: I was trying to think where did that...
SB: It was only little tiny cottages property because Archers old iron shop took up most of the…, I suppose.
MO: On this side was it?
SB: On the opposite side to Geering and Tregaskiss.
JR: Which I think was on the, if you came down, I think that was on the corner
MO: Archers. Wasn’t it. This side wasn't it?
JR: Yes I should think so, yes.
MO: Yes, it was just off Gladstone, yes.
JR: Ok I will just get I will have some more water it's alright I'm alright. Now you were telling me earlier about your father isn’t it, not grandfather, it’s your grandfather.
PB: Yes, my grandfather.
JR: Your grandfather, but Sydney's father.
PB: Philip Enoch.
JR: Philip Enoch, that’s right, being an apprentice.
SB: No that was Walter James.
PB: Oh was he, sorry. So who was Philip Enoch, your grandfather?
SB: Grandfather.
PB: Right, ok, sorry.
JR: Well, tell me about the one that was apprenticed to McMullen so I can put it on here.
SB: That was my father Walter.
JR: So how old was he when he went there? About 14?
SB: 15 I think he was. I think he paid his indentures up.
PB: We have got the indentures. I thought I had brought them over last time but perhaps I've what I have done, my eldest son has, I managed to get someone to photocopy them in colour so it's got the seal and everything ‘cos it's got the wax seal and everything on and he has got that framed in one of his rooms down in Bristol. But the actual original one I have got laid out flat between two pieces of card on top of one of our wardrobes at home but I mean I did, I'm sure that I took that when we were over once and we went to the museum, Hertford Museum.
It was the time that they were doing the exhibition on local characters and John was featured wasn't he on one of these stand-up screen type things you have got there do you remember doing it well I took it down there and I took it and showed someone that was actually at the Museum at the time because we also went down there to see this wheelbarrow that John and Dad purportedly made.
MO: Oh yes.
PB: But it wasn't. Underneath the arches or somewhere they keep them?
MO: It is in the Seed Warehouse.
PB: You know where I mean? So that apparently is still in the museum that wheelbarrow that John made, as lads, this wooden wheelbarrow wooden wasn't it? This wheelbarrow that you and Bill made?
SB: It was elm.
PB: Elm. Well alright then - wood to me.
SB: The wheel on that was made by one of those men in that photograph.
JR: Oh, the wheelwright.
SB: Abe Taylor who was the wheelwright from Hertford East he made the wheel for it so that was handmade.
JR: What was his name?
SB: Abe Taylor.
JR: Abe Taylor?
SB: Abe they used to call him A B E.
JR: Abraham.
SB: Abe, yes probably short.
JR: Was he from Hertford Heath did you say?
SB: That's right.
JR: Oh, right that is a good lead for us we do have bits of Hertford Heath coming into these tapes sometimes. So this, this father his name was…
PB: Walter James.
JR: Walter James. He was apprenticed for 7 years? At McMullens?
SB: 7 years, yes.
JR: Right, when he came out he was qualified as a ..?
SB: Painter and coach
PB: Coach painter I believe.
JR: Coach.
PB: I think it is coach painter on the indemnities.
JR: Ok coach painter. So, do you know how long he stayed with them after that before he started working for these people, I mean.
SB: Well I think it was to the turn of the century, so I think it was about 1868 I think when that apprenticeship was signed something like that wasn't it, Philip?
PB: Yes, somewhere around there I think, but I'll let you have a look at it if you haven’t seen it. As I say we did take it down and show it to the people at the, whoever was there at the time.
JR: The time, because I think I have seen one, you mentioned I think on the phone, a Briden… a Briden family
PB: Well this is the guy that has been in touch with us and has now contacted you I believe.
JR: No, no.
PB: No, he has contacted the Oral History Society in some way,
JR: I think that was Len Green actually, he contacted.
PB: Oh was it? Well I don't know because this is someone we saw in the, a letter in the Hertfordshire magazine. Do you remember we picked it up in the magazine and he was asking about Bridens’s, wasn't he and you knew something about Briden’s. So I wrote to him because his address was in there and he replied and he has got a company doesn't he down in Gloucestershire or somewhere, and he was going to come back wasn't he...
SB: He was going to come back this summer.
PB: ...and see you and talk about it. And he has written three or four letters to us about it because he seemed quite interested but he seems very busy and wrapped up in this ‘cos he's, he is into making pine things or wooden things down in his business down in Gloucestershire. But I have got the, I have kept the letters from him.
MO: Was he connected with the bakery?
JR: I think they were in some way yes. But I think he was an apprentice it sounds like he was an apprentice at approximately the same time as Walter. It was in the 1860’s I think.
PB: I think it was 1867 or 1868 I think it was somewhere about then.
JR: So McMullens took apprentices didn’t they must have done, because those two people went there. Was it a big firm McMullens, was it the best, the biggest firm in the District?
SB: Well I should say it was one in the town yes.
JR: Because they also had some premises in London, in Longacre. I was given by the Museum an article on McMullens about 1898 when they were really thriving and it describe their premises in St Albans and in Long Acre and it said they had 100 men working for them, yes so it seemed a big enterprise.
SB: So quite a big firm.
JR: Yes, yes, and did they ever become car dealers or not, did they?
SB: Not to my knowledge, no.
JR: So who was the, who took over from McMullens after they went from Hertingfordbury Road?
SB: Well it is still being runs as McMullens isn't it, the brewery side of it is.
JR: What about the Coachworks there? Who because I mean….
SB: No somebody took that over but I don't know who it was.
MO: Sessions, Sessions
SB: They were related you know cousins or something of the sort
MO: The McMullens
JR: They were.
SB: They were all intermarried like.
MO: Because some of them lived up in Bengeo, but they didn't have any. Have I interrupted you?
JR: No, go on.
MO: They were cousins I think but they didn't really have much connection with the McMullens at the Brewery, and they had a little stables up there when I was a girl I used to go up there riding and then they left it was one of those big house in, oh dear where Lorna Paulin lives, what’s the?
Transcribers Note: The original McMullen firms were started by brothers. The stable in Bengeo was 12 Church Road run by Ruth McMullen later known as Bengeo Riding stables moved to Duncombe Road and the bottom of Port Hill.
JR: Oh, Church Road.
MO: Yes, Church Road.
JR: Yes, yes, one of those. I think the McMullen family produced a lot of sons of one stage, and of course they all went into different businesses.
SB: Yes, that is what I imagine they did.
JR: Yes, that is what I think it was in the early part of the 19th century so you don't remember who took over from McMullens Coachworks?
SB: No.
JR: I think there was somebody in between Sessions and McMullens but I am not too sure yes ok.
SB: I think they kept it on for a good many years but I remember when a bomb was dropped near there in the 1914-18 war, I mean that smashed it up quite a bit.
JR: Oh, right.
SB: Because the doctors used to be on the opposite side of the road and they dropped this they had this big bomb the big one didn't go off, thank goodness, because it was supposed to have one hundredweight gunpowder in it at that time of day, I mean it would looked upon as being a big bomb
MO: Was the doctors Bernard Smith, was it…
SB: Pardon?
MO: …the doctors, the doctors, who were the doctors? It was in North Road not Cecil House it was…
JR: Bernard Smith was it? I think it was because Emmy, Ellie
MO: Emily Swann.
JR: Emily Swann was the wife, wasn't she?
MO: I can't quite work out where…
JR: North Road House they lived, they move from Cecil House round to..
MO: I am with you now, yes, yes.
JR: I think North Road house in this bombing lost a wing, a small wing, where the Ebenezer is now that sort of area yes. Well not quite as far as that.
SB: ‘Cos my doctor was in Castle Street I had Dr Hall I was on the right hand side of the road with so was my father, and me mother and the rest of them were over the other side, Dr …
MO: Oh that must have been…
SB: Eager, and there were about 4 of them in partnership.
JR: Yes, I have heard of him.
MO: In my day it was Vivian, corner next to the police station, yes.
JR: There was four of them wasn’t there?
MO: That came after Vivian. Vivian was there in the last war I think.
SB: Which side of the family did you come from the Bengeo one or the Queens Road one, descendant.
MO: Sydney. Sydney, yeah, from Queens Road. it was Owen up in Bengeo.
SB: Trinity Grove that was.
MO: Yes, that was Owen.
SB: Who?
PB: Owen
MO: Owen.
SB: Owen
MO: Who was my grandfather's brother.
SB: That’s right.
MO: Do you remember him?
SB: Yes.
MO: He was quite a character.
SB: Yes because I mean I was like a lad at Gravesons and we used to have an account at Roses you know and anything we wanted
MO: Yes, he was in the shop part.
SB: Yes I was sent over to Roses to get it and you didn't have to take money you see…
MO: Put it on the account.
SB: …it is for whatever department it was.
JR: Gravesons. Yes.
MO: Yes. Stationery and things like that.
JR: Sidney was saying that… Silbey, sorry.
SB: You could go to Congregational and the other one I don’t know the Bengeo one I don't know where it is.
MO: Owen went to Trinity. (Holy Trinity)
SB: Trinity.
MO: No, Trinity.
PB: Trinity.
SB: Trinity
JR: isn’t it called Trinity.
MO: Yes, yes
SB: The Bengeo church.
MO: Yes, that's where Owen went and Sydney was. Congregational. He was a Deacon.
SB: Because the one that was at the Congregational I used to know him quite a lot because he used to come in the shop and talk to Mr Clark who was the manager of the footwear
MO: Yes, he was Congregational.
SB: Because they were both on the I now call it the committee or whatever it was.
MO: That’s right. He was Congregational.
SB: They used to serve on that and they used to come and you know talk church work and goodness knows what.
JR: Mr Silbey you said used to know. Mr Silbey used to know one of your forebears whether it was Sydney or ..
SB: Yes, because he went to Congregational.
MO: Was Silbey a shoemaker?
JR: Yes, yes a boot repairer, yes.
MO: On Port Hill?
JR: No West Street.
MO: West Street, yes.
JR: Yes, because we started with West Street.
MO: Oh I see, sorry…..
JR: Ok. Any more memories of Hertingfordbury Road or North Crescent or anywhere around there? You mentioned Scoley before didn't you, Mr Scoley?
SB: Scoley, he was in Hertingfordbury Road in the new houses you know what were put up on the right just prior to the…, I think they were built just as War started in the 1914 War you know.
MO: Where Peter Ruffles…?
JR: Are they the Villas, the Villas they were called, yes.
SB: Yes, they were with bay windows.
JR: Oh yes that's right.
SB: Scoley’s lived in one and then Mr Botsford he bought one up there after the 1914-18 War, and they lived up there.
PB: So which Botsford was that Harry or?
SB: No, the father.
PB: Oh the father, Harry and Phil’s father.
SB: Yes. Neither of them were born there they were born in St Andrew Street, but he bought it directly after the 14-18 War ended and then they moved up there because whilst the war was on he was an Ironmonger
MO: Grandmother was a Botsford wasn't she? Sid’s mother was a Botsford.
PB and SB in unison: No.
MO: Oh, wasn’t she? [surprised]. I thought she was.
SB: She was a Newland.
PB: A Newland.
JR: Newland, yes.
MO: So where did the Botsfords come in?
PB: Botsfords were cousins weren't they?
SB: Botsford were cousins yes, but it was me father's sister who married Frank Botsford.
MO: Oh I see yes, I am sorry I am sorry, I always got it muddled.
SB: So then there was … where Addis’ club was there was another Newland one of the other brother's who got a green grocery shop and orchard and that was bought it didn’t belong to them, but that was bought for Addis’.
MO: Ware Road
JR: Oh, so that was an Orchard before. Oh that is interesting. Right.
SB: Because I used to go round on the van with one of the Newlands, you know the horse drawn one so when we went round to the houses I sit on the side seat to look after reins and what have you. [laughs] Stop start, stop start as they went round the houses with the green food and one thing and another. And then there was another one of the sons Fred he used to do all the planting and they’d had got a field in Sandy Lane and they used to go up there.
JR: Plants.
SB: And grow their own you know greens and potatoes and what have you.
MO: Well who ran the market garden in North Road?
SB: In where?
MO: North Road
SB: North Road?
MO: Yes. Just a bit beyond the doctors.
JR: It was Francis’ nursery wasn’t it at one time, Francis.
MO: Francis was it? I remember it when it was a nursery. I remember it when it was a nursery.
JR: Yes, well it was Francis nursery certainly early on in this century but I don't know whether anybody took it over from Francis, but I think it was actually closed in the 1930s, and then I think became a depot I think for milk floats. That's what I heard from one of the tapes.
SB: Didn't they use it afterwards for the nurses at the hospital?
JR: They did after that I think that was after the war though.
MO: I thought it was one in the thirties,
JR: You what?
MO: The thirties, this nursery did.
JR: Yes, oh yes. Just before the war it closed.
MO: Just before this last war, yes.
SB: Yes, well I can remember like the before the 14 war.
JR: They were the Nurseries then.
SB: Yes.
JR: Yes, I think they did but kept whether it was the same ownership.
SB: Because they were ornamental, you know, they weren’t er…
MO: Plants and things.
SB: Well flowers mainly.
JR: Yes. McMullens, no not McMullens, well let's say McMullens or whoever it was that had McMullens after McMullens, they had this coach repair works down Warehams Lane, didn't they? Anything about that?
SB: No.
JR: No, no.
SB: I had left to town by then.
JR: Yes, yes, ok I just wondered if you knew. Yes, so did you know anyone living in the cottages in Hertingfordbury Road, near the Oak?
SB: Used to know the boys of the Three Tuns pub.
JR: Three Tuns, oh did you?
SB: Straight opposite.
JR: St Andrew's Church, well not quite. Who were they?
SB: And they were opposite McMullens, you know.
JR: Yes.
MO: When did that…
JR: You don't mean the Cold Bath.
SB: No, it was called the Three Tuns.
JR: Ok, right. Yes.
MO: When did the…, I am trying to remember, am I interrupting?
JR: No, go ahead.
MO: I am trying to remember when the allotments were given up you see, because there was a great brick wall opposite the Villas and originally I think this is where they started the Hertford Bowls Club on the bowling green and my grandfather had an allotment down there, and I can vaguely remember those allotments, though he'd given up by that time
SB: Where were the allotments?
MO: In Hertingfordbury Road.
SB: Oh yes there was a Walled Garden
MO: That’s right.
PB: Didn’t you have an allotment?
SB: John had…
PB: John had one up there. John had two allotments didn’t he.
SB: Yeah. One up Bengeo.
PB: One up there and one up Bengeo.
SB: He was straight opposite. where Frank Ferris was I think.
JR: And did they go right over to the river?
SB: Yes.
JR: A big… big pieces of land.
MO: Yes, I could see them.. that.
SB: And there was all the trees trained on the wall up from Hertingfordbury Road like a garden side
JR: Yes. I am trying to find out, there is a rumour that that was originally the kitchen garden of the Castle.
MO: Oh yes I should think that is more than likely.
SB: Yes, well it's possible.
JR: Yes.
MO: I would think so.
JR: So that is one of my next tasks to find out exactly what it was.
MO: The gardens were…
SB: But it was very old fashioned inside you know, a lot of brick work here and there, and that kind of.
JR: And there were gates, big gates, were there big gates going in at one point, near the Oak?
SB: Yes, that is the way that I used to go in.
JR: And when you got inside the gates was there any building inside? Was there any cottages or shacks or sheds?
SB: I don't remember any.
MO: There was a new house just before you got to the railway bridges. I should think that was 1920s or something.
JR: That was the Grey Gables.
MO: 1920’s I think they..,
JR: So was Wareham's, not Wareham's Lane, wasn't Mimram Road always there, do you know where I mean?
SB: Which road?
JR: Mimram Road.
SB: Mimram?
JR: Just beyond the walled garden before you get to the railway bridge, a road going down towards the river.
MO: Yes, I do vaguely remember.
JR: Perhaps just a track.
SB: There used to be
MO: A track yes. It wasn’t a …
SB: Wacketts,
MO: Yes, that is what is missing here.
SB: They used to repair bikes.
JR: And then there was another yard belonging to Scales wasn't there?
SB: Another yard where?
JR: Belonging to Scales, I think just there.
SB: No, he lived on **** I didn't know he got a yard there.
JR: I think he had one yard where he lived, I think.
SB: One yard what?
JR: Where he lived. He lived near the Oak, didn’t he? Is that right?
SB: No, on the, you know the Villas by the villas in one of those.
JR: Oh, he lives in one of those. Himself?
SB: Because there was the father and then there was the son, but he didn’t live there.
JR: No, ok right. Well he had one works down by the Oak, is that right? His works was down by the Oak. His Yard.
MO: What was he? I can’t…
JR: Scales, builder and undertakers, really. I understood he had one Yard near the Oak pub,
SB: Who? Scales?
JR: Scales. Scales. And then another one up by the railway bridge. No, you don’t know, ok.
SB: No.
JR: Maybe it was later.
SB: I mean as far as I would know, he wasn’t looked upon as a working man at all, he was used to, a bookmaker used to take gambling.
JR: Oh, I think we have got the wrong man here. Yes. That’s ok, I think Scales and Scoley got mixed up.
PB: You are not talking about Mr Scales, are you?
SB: No, I am talking about Scoley.
Together: Scoley.
PB: Well we are talking about Mr Scales, alright? Builder and, er stonemason
JR: Undertaker.
PB: Undertaker. Because wasn’t Scales, wasn’t he the one that I seem to remember seeing a receipt for all the funerals of your…
SB: Scales.
PB: Of your Father or…
SB: Scales used to have the place at the end of where this walled garden ended,
JR: Yes.
PB: That is what we are trying to talk about.
JR: In fact Scales built those Villas. He was the builder of the Villas. All of them. The row.
MO: Was Scales the butcher?
JR: I think a relative.
SB: There was a Scales the butcher but over in St Andrews Street.
MO: Yes.
JR: Next to Cawthorne House, where the antique shop. Oh, right, so that is good, we got that sorted out. Thank you.
SB: We’ll get there gradually [laughter] we go round the houses.
JR: Scoley, Scoley then was a bookie. Is that right? Turf Accountant? Scoley?
SB: I don’t know what his Christian name was.
PB: No, what his profession was, we are back with Scoley now, he was the bookmaker you say.
SB: I mean a bookmaker, I mean a gambling man.
PB: Yes, yes. Turf Accountant same, same, brilliant.
JR: Did he have anything to do with Scoley the tailor?
SB: That’s his son.
JR: Oh right, that’s ok then. And he was on the Wash or Millbridge or whatever you call that
SB: He used to be at Gravesons, and then he went from Gravesons, they said his father bought him this business, you know, opposite the Castle cinema then, and he used to have a single tailor’s shop. Mrs Scoley and Mr Scoley used to live in Russell Street, same as we did, and they used to go down there, ‘cos my sister was very friendly with Mrs Scolely.
PB: Was that down the bottom of Russell Street.
SB: That was my younger sister.
PB: Was that the other end of Russell Street, where you lived? At the bottom?
SB: No, not down the bottom, no she lived in the same, same time she lived where me grandmother used to live.
PB: Oh, right.
SB: Scoley’s did. Where the Botsfords used to live.
PB: At number 12 or somewhere along there.
SB: Yes, it is number 12.
PB: Was number 12.
JR: Ah. Oh right, good, good, good. Did you know anyone who lived in North Crescent? The big house at all or, anyone from North Road?
MO: Crumley I think
JR: Yes, he did, didn’t he.
SB: He used to be in Gravesons but what his name was I…
JR: Oh! I know.
SB: He was on the Manchester side. Tallish fella.
JR: I know who you mean, but I can’t think of his name.
SB: Neither can I. [laughter]
JR: Number 37 I think he lived at.
SB: I know it was in one of the tall houses as I used to call them.
JR: Yes, that’s right, yes. yes. I can’t think.
SB: And then of course one of the Garratts used to live on the opposite, the further corner before you went through cross-roads, on the corner there, the Garratts.
MO: Yes, did they, interesting.
SB: Not Lewis, the other one, because Lewis lived at the
MO: Geoffrey?
JR: No.
SB: Lewis lived at the, you know, where the mill was.
JR: The mill, the mill yes.
MO: Was it Geoffrey Garratt?
JR: It was, it was actually called Frome, I think, the house. It is now The Rectory, St Andrew’s Rectory.
SB: Yes, I think so.
JR: I can’t think which Garratt it was, was it Douglas?
SB: What name?
JR: Douglas?
SB: Yes.
JR: Yes, I think it was. Tell us again, you have told us about the bomb that dropped opposite McMullens, I think it was North Road House. What about the one that dropped down by the Mill. There was some people killed down there weren’t there? Opposite the hospital between the mill and the hospital in the road. Do you remember anything about that?
SB: I don't remember.
JR: No.
SB: I remember three being killed on Bull Plain.
JR: Yes, yes. I think there were two killed from the Mill and a lot of property was very badly damaged.
SB: Because the bombs were scattered around because I mean there was seven zeppelins. That would scatter them about a bit, wouldn't it?
JR: Yes, yes. In fact one of the houses in North Crescent, well it's now called North Road, one of the big houses which was never painted has got little pitted marks over the front, and I wonder whether that is from the original Zeppelin you know, because the owner's said to me had I seen them. I went to have a look and sure enough they are there. He never knew what they were, so I said it could have been from 1915 I suppose, it seems a long time, it is never been painted, it’s a …
PB: It's incredible isn't it that they haven't done anything with it.
JR: No, no-one's filled them in. So I assume there were probably all in that state but they had them nicely refilled and this one hasn't been it is quite interesting. Yes, ok right, I think we have nearly got up to the end of our tape so let's stop and…
End of Tape 2.