Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Watkins, Ivan (O 1999.30) |
| Interviewee | Ivan Watkins (IW) |
| Interviewer | Jean Purkis (JP) |
| Date | 05/01/1999 |
| Transcriber by | Jean Purkis |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O 1999.30
Interviewee: Ivan Watkins (IW)
Date: 5th January 1999
Venue: 3 Bushby Avenue, Broxbourne
Interviewers: Jean Purkis (JP)
Transcriber: Jean Purkis
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
Italic’s editor’s notes
Note: previous interview with Ivan was in May l997 (Peter Ruffles and JR)
This is Jean Purkis and I'm speaking from Ivan Watkin's house, number 3 Bushby Avenue, Broxbourne. It's Tuesday morning the fifth of January, l999 and I've come (back) today because Ivan's thought of more things he wants to tell us and I've thought of more things I want to ask him.
JP: So, you wanted to tell me first of all Ivan, about Hertford in days gone by...you wrote a piece for the Mercury and it didn't get put in, is that right?
IW: That is correct, yes.
JP: It started off with something about farmers, didn't it?
IW: Mm, that's right. Well, on Mondays the cattle market used to be held, used to be held where the multi-storey car park now stands. The farmers from miles around used to come out of the market and go into the Ram pub.........
JP: It was just behind the Ram, wasn't it?
IW: That's right.....and go round all the other pubs. When they used to come in for their haricuts, some of them could hardly stand up, they'd had so much to drink. How they got home, I never knew.
JP: They were actually driving....
IW: Some of them even drove, yes, there were still driving their Jags.
JP: Did you still get horse drawn traffic at that point?
IW: There was one that used to come in by horse and cart and that was one of the Brooks farmers. They carried on with horses right up well into the 'sixties.
JP: Where did they have to come from?
IW: Near Bayford.
JP: So, they came in for haircuts, did they, the farmers?
IW: Yes, that's right, Monday was the day for the market and of course they used to make an outing of it. And as I say they'd come in, have their drinks and go round shopping and go to the market.
JP: And did they bring their wives with them?
IW: No, normally on their own, it was more or less a day out for them, you know.
JP: Yes, yes.
IW: I always remember once that during the cattle market, and it was also the quarter sessions....were actually on the second week, the quarter sessions used to start on a Tuesday...it was on its second week and this great big ram escaped from the market and it was loose in the town and they were all trying to catch it, the police, and it must have taken about 3 hours to catch this ram.
JP: A bit scary was it....did it have horns?
IW: I've made a mess of this, haven't I! Should have said pig!
JP: Oh, pig. Never mind. So, it was a big....pig....got.....out. What did it do, charge around everywhere, or was it scared?
IW: Yes, just couldn't catch it. It was quite a big one and they just couldn't catch it. In the end they got a net and they managed to net it.
JP: Well, that made a nice colourful morning I suppose.
IW: Oh, yes, a bit of excitement in the town!
JP: We had a story from somebody who worked in Fordhams that a cow actually got into Fordhams shop, actually walked in there from the cows that went walking down the street.
IW: Yes, 'cos one of the farmers that used to drive his cattle down the street, used to be the Coopers, and old man Cooper used to wear a brown smock and one of these bent sticks, you know, and his son was the same. It was passed on, and he's only just recently died, actually, but they used to drive the cattle through the town. A lot of them used to arrive by train at one time.
JP: To the East Station was that?
IW: Yes, and they used to walk round to the market originally, that way.
JP: They had some pens, as well, didn't they, at the bottom of Port Hill?
IW: Yes, that's right, yes. I don't remember it that well myself because I used to go over to Hertford but not to spend quite so much time there 'cos I originated from Hoddesdon, so....
JP: So, what about ....you were talking about the Assizes.
IW: Yes, they quite often used to start on the Tuesday of the week and that was going on at the Shire Hall. The judge used to go to church at All Saints' Church; he used to go on to the courthouse, he used to be escorted by 2 trumpeters playing in front of the car. Once we had a judge brought round for his haircut. It was a little bit embarrassing 'cos though I cut his hair, I just didn't know what to say to him, but we started talking on gardening and we was all right.
JP: Yes, that's a good stand-by, isn't it.
IW: We also used to have, when the Assizes was on and quarter sessions, we quite often used to have prisoners brought round for their haircuts. They were escorted by 2 gaolers, one standing behind you and another standing outside the shop.
JP: So, what sort of haircuts did they have...ordinary haircuts?
IW: Yes, it was very short.
JP: Why do you think they did this then, was it because they'd got out of the way of....had they been on the run or something?
IW: I think they used to like to take them back you know, after they'd been tried, with their haircuts all ready, sort of thing. Perhaps they did have someone coming round cutting hair but perhaps they might not be coming round for a fortnight and the emphasis is that they had to have their hair short, the prisoners years ago.....yes.
JP: Oh, I see, it was part of their conditions. So what did you talk about to the prisoners, or didn't you....or did you talk to the guards.....
IW: No, I didn't say an awful lot. Can't remember really, must have had some sort of conversation but it wasn't easy, not knowing what to say.
JP: So the policeman stood next to him, did he?
IW: The gaoler, yes, they had two gaolers.
JP: So, did you talk to them, perhaps?
IW: Oh yes, you know, we used to make a few jokes and that sort of thing.
JP: So, he didn't try and escape then, while you were.....
IW: Oh, no!
JP: They just marched him round from the Shire Hall, did they?
IW: Yes, they brought them round from the cells there. Yes, when they had the Assizes and the quarter sessions, used to get police come from all over the county, coming from Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield....used to be swarming with police.
JP: Yes. They didn't come in for haircuts, did they?
IW: Oh, yes, we used to get quite a few come in.
JP: They did! It's amazing how people take the chance of having a haircut when they see a barbers shop.
IW: Oh, yes, they used to come in. Especially in those days because a lot of them used to do, like longer and different hours and quite often policemen would slip in and get their hair cut and you'd hide the helmet in the back room so that if anyone came in they wouldn't see it was a .............
JP: What was that for, so it wouldn't intimidate the customers, or so they wouldn't be caught having a haircut during duty time?
IW: So they shouldn't be caught having their hair cut as well, I think.
JP: Still, they still had the rest of the uniform on, didn't they.
IW: Oh, yes.
JP: So, you performed a very useful service, didn't you, really?
IW: Yes, I can tell lots of tales....quite exciting times, at times, when you are looking back at it.
JP: Is there any more about the Assizes there or.....
IW: No.
JP: The next bit's about.........
IW: You used to get the farm labourers.
JP: Yes, that's right.
IW: In the spring we used to get a lot of farm labourers for their haircuts. So many farms around and they used to employ so many in the farms. They weren't very well paid and they would come in for their hair cut in the spring and it was probably the first haircut they'd had that year you know. Just for a treat they'd have a shampoo 'cos they hadn't got the washing facilities at home, and perhaps they hadn't had their hair washed for 3 months.
JP: So it was like liquid mud was it, the water?
IW: Strangely enough it wasn't that bad. A lot of them had quite healthy hair, you know, believe it or not and then quite often they would go round to the car park, it was the old car park where you could get a bath - there was toilets and a bath round there where you could get a bath for 4d - old pence of course.
JP: So they'd have their hair cut and washed and a bath so they'd be new men.
IW: They'd come in and they'd got their clothes out and quite often they'd smell of mothballs, got their best suit on.
JP: Oh? they didn't take their clean clothes with them to the bath to....
IW: No!
JP: Oh right......so, were those baths used quite a lot, then by people?
IW: Oh, they were in those days, yes. A lot of the houses, even in Hertford, even down the Folly didn't have bathrooms, didn't have baths, didn't have showers.
JP: No. In fact few people have mentioned these baths. I would have thought they'd have featured more largely in people's lives than we've been led to believe. But I'm not too sure when they were built, Maybe they hadn't been there that long before the war (1952, per Corporation minutes).
IW: Well, the bus station, that particular bus station, was built in the 'thirties.
JP: So, it came with the Arcade, didn't it really.
IW: Yes, it came with the Arcade, and that bus station, the bus was the form of transport, all the buses came into Hertford. Hertford was like a spider where all the buses came into Hertford from all the other towns...villages, rather, 'cos there wasn't the town and every thing was based in Hertford......shopping, everything.
JP: A centre, yes. So were the baths taken down when the bus station came or were they still there? (JP gets a bit confused here obviously!)
IW: They were still there when they took it down.
JP: Were they there before the bus station as well....they left them in place did they?
IW: They were built with the bus station. When they built the bus station, they built the waiting room, the toilets and the baths.
JP: Oh right, so they weren't there in the 'twenties....this is why we haven't heard much about them, because some of the people we interviewed were older than that and remember it from the twenties. Now, this chap you wanted to tell me about...oh, before that....
IW: The dispenser.
JP: Yes, Ralph White. There's something else, but I'll go back to that in a minute. Ralph White who worked at Boots.
IW: Do you want me to run through this first?
JP: Yes, please, yes.
IW: Well, Ralph White, he worked at Boots as a dispenser, when Boots was on the corner of Bull Plain. He was there for about 60 years, at least 60 years and of course he used to come in for his haircut, so he was telling me how when he first went there the poorer people of course had to have medicines but the better- off people used to have pills, like tablets but they were rolled up into balls and they called them pills and they were put into pill boxes, red cardboard....you might even have seen them
JP: Yes, I think I have.
IW: Boxes....and so he used to have to get this stuff and roll it in a ball then coat it and he used to have to coat it with this coating.
JP: Like a sugar.
IW: Yes, whatever colour.
JP: Were the pills more expensive to buy than the medicine, then?
IW: Oh yes, that's why only the rich could afford them. The medicines were horrible to take.
JP: Yes, I suppose you swallow a pill and not........(taste it) ....so, how long had Boots been going, then....must have been going a long time, I know it was before the war that Boots was there. So, is there anything else there you wanted not to forget to tell us?.............I've got a few things to go on with, if not.....you did say something about the late 'seventies, early 'eighties, when long hair was in fashion......?
IW: Oh, yes, that's right, yes....it was in the late 'sixties, early 'seventies.
JP: Sorry I've got this wrong...late 'sixties, early 'seventies...a lot of businesses went...
IW: Yes, when we had the long hair fashion with the Beatles, three quarters of the hairdressers in the western world closed up. We managed to survive. Six hairdressers in the town closed up.
JP: So how many did that leave the town then when those six closed....you and ?
IW: There were two, yes, there was one other, I think that's all at the time.
JP: Just the two of you. Although they grew it, they still had it cut eventually, didn't they, and styled....I would have thought.
IW: Let me tell you. In the university towns like Cambridge and Oxford, those students used to have their hair cut every fortnight but with the long hair trend they went to university and they didn't have it cut all the time they were there...so, you work that out
JP: Yes.......
IW: And there was thirty two hairdressers in Cambridge and two survived.
JP: Yes, when you said long hair, I was thinking more of the Beatles style, but you're talking about really long hair.
IW: No, no, they had to go through that period of growing, didn't they.
JP: But they just kept growing it, they didn't go to the barbers in between to have it........
IW: Not in between, no.
JP: Yes, yes.
IW: And of course mothers or girlfriends would just trim a bit off the bottom of it.
JP: Yes.
IW: Oh, no, that was terrible.
JP: So your customers were older ones generally, who just wanted short back and sides at that time?
IW: No, believe it or not, a lot of those started growing their hair longer. Even some of the older ones but we still went with the fashion and we just catered for it and we managed to survive, just didn't need so many hairdressers, that's all. (Pause).
JP: Well, I was wondering about when you were a boy...did you ever come to help your father in the shop before you started on your own career?
IW: Not really no.
JP: You didn't come to do some sweeping and earn a bit of pocket money?
IW: Oh, yes, yes I did do a bit, yes. Because he was at Hoddesdon then.
JP: Yes, and did that make you decide to become a barber yourself?
IW: No, I think it was an accepted thing in those days, that you followed your father's business. You sort of followed after them, didn't you, that was the thing to do.
JP: Yes. So if you hadn't done that, what would you have liked to have done?
IW: Well, I would have liked to have been a vet, you know.
IW: Yes, something to do with animals. Really, but for a job like that you had to be, your family had to be well off to get into jobs like that. That was the thing in those days.
JP: So, you told us in the last tape about the training you had to do. Did you have to, you must have had to pass an exam or a demonstration or something, did you?
IW: I passed my City and Guilds.
JP: So, what did you actually do for that, was it a written exam?
IW: In those days we had to do physics and chemistry and I had to do a certain amount about the body, anatomy and all those sort of things because that was all in the curriculum, really. It wasn't easy you know to take your City and Guilds in those days....I think there was only about 30 people a year that took City and Guilds.
JP: Really?....in hairdressing?
IW: In hairdressing.
JP: So what did you have to do for the actual exam?
IW: Well, its a written exam and also you had to do a bit of practical work as well where you had to do a certain thing, you know, you might have to cut some....do a haircut or a shampoo and various things like that.
JP: An examiner would come in and watch you do this?
IW: Yes, examine you afterwards.
JP: Yes, and did you have people at other times coming in to see you, sort of marking you at all, on anything?
IW: Oh, yes.
JP: I suppose what we would today call 'continuous assessment'...they'd keep watching you to see if you were doing it properly, would they?
IW: Well, that's right, yes. You'd only do a bit at a time until they were sure you were quite confident in doing it properly, sort of thing. We used to get models coming, like they do now, they do that sort of thing now at colleges.
JP: Yes they do.
IW: Voluntary models.
JP: So supposing something goes wrong, supposing you cut the wrong bit of hair off or something - does the model have to take the chance.............?
IW: They have to accept this, they're getting it for.....if they're not paying for it they can't do anything about it.
JP: Did you ever have any disasters then?
IW: I didn't myself no, but.....
JP: Did you see any?
IW: Yes. It was one of the masters, actually. There was a woman with over shoulder length hair and we used to put our scissors in our pockets with the handles up, this is how the coats were made in those days. And there was a type of scissor called escolaps (escallops?)...they just thin the hair...they don't have a complete blade to cut it completely, they could just thin so many hairs out. And of course he was showing us how to thin this woman's long head of hair, and of course it was below her shoulders. He just put his hand in his pocket, pulled the scissors, snip, snip and they were the wrong scissors and they cut this great big lump off.
JP: Oh!
IW: She couldn't see it, we just stood there aghast, you know, wondered what he was going to do next. So of course straight away he says "did Madam realise that her hair...." he said "did you realise that your hair is breaking a lot?" She said "no...." He said "well, it's splitting a lot at the ends ......" "Oh dear," she said, "what's the answer to that?" He said "well really the only answer is to shorten it down a bit". "Well, you'd better do that, then...." so he continued cutting it round!
JP: So he got out of it with absolutely no blame! I mean, maybe that was also a tip for you, if you do have a disaster! Oh, that's good. But you never did anything....well, I suppose you watched him do that and didn't do it yourself!
IW: I have nicked a few people, that sort of thing. Children used to be the worst because they used to move. It used to be terrible the way some of them used to move. I've ended up cutting their hair on the floor with the father holding them down.
JP: Yes, yes. It's not as though it's a ...it's not like going to the dentist for kids is it, it's not as though anything's going to hurt them, in fact if they sit still nothing will happen.
IW: Years ago of course we were always in white coats.
JP: Yes, and that frightens them a bit, doesn't it.
IW: Everyone wore white coats, doctors, dentists and in the hospital everyone wore white coats so they thought they were in for something worse, you know!
JP: When I came before, you said to me that you did train to do ladies hair - obviously you did, you were watching this demonstration....which do you think is easier to do, ladies or men?
IW: I think ladies is really easiest especially nowadays. It wasn't so easy when I had to do it because it was done ny....permanent waving was a lot more complicated than it is today. It was also very dangerous, too. You could quite easily burn someone, burn their hair and of course dyeing was much....usd to do a lot of dyeing in those days. The dyes were much more dangerous and you used to have to do skin tests before you did the dye. We used to do Marcel Waving - that was with curling tongs - but you had to make sure they weren't too hot otherwise you could burn a person's hair. No, it's a lot easier now than what it was in those days.
JP: Yes. Were these things....well, were the perm solutions and the dyes, were they dangerous only if they were dropped on the skin, or were they detrimental to the hair as well?
IW: 0h, no, they were detrimental to the hair if they were left on too long.
JP: Yes, so you had to time them very carefully.
IW: Oh, yes.
JP: Did you ever have any disasters with those at all?
IW: No, well I mean you might find somebody's hair would end up too curly than what they really wanted or perhaps not curly enough, you know, through underheating or overheating, but that was all, you know.
JP: Does it also depend on the type of hair they had to start with, whether it was very fine or......yes?
IW: You had to be very careful you didn't burn their scalp because you used to get this steam.....used to come from the.....when you did these permanent waves and you had to put cotton wool all the way around the curlers underneath to make sure the steam didn't come out and burn the skin, because you used to see the steam coming out like a kettle with these curlers. Because basically all they had on one of the systems, the Crockenall one, there was like a caustic soda that was actually in these sachets, and as you know, if you put caustic soda in water, it heats up, so of course these sachets just used to heat up.......
JP: When they were mixed with water, all the steam would come out and possibly burn the scalp if you weren't careful?
IW: Yes.
JP: Oh, I didn't know that. When was all this....after the war, obviously, wasn't it?
IW: This was just before the war.
JP: Before the war.
IW: The cold wave lotions came out just after the war. Yes it was just after the war they started to come out...in the late 'forties, cold wave lotions. Actually the ladies hairdressing trade went through a bit of a slump because of all the home perm sets.
JP: I was just going to say, were they as strong a solution?
IW: No, they weren't so strong because they wouldn't dare make them so strong but they did a lot of hairdressers out of business. People got these home perms and they'll get somebody else to do it for them, doing each other's hair.
JP: What about colouring and things like that....did you ever get any colouring going wrong or people coming out with green hair or that sort of thing?
IW: No, no. I did have one funny story. It wasn't.......I had the shop at Hertford. There was one young chap, he managed to get this job in France because he couldn't get a job over here, he had his hair cut before he went. Anyway, it was a few weeks later, he came in for his hair cut. And when he came in the door, I just couldn't believe it, he'd got bright green hair.
JP: Green?
IW: Yes. I said "what on earth happened?" So he said "well, I went into this French hairdressers and because I couldn't speak any French....you cut my hair so I just wanted it shampooed. So, you know, after a time when they started to dry if off I suddenly realised what happened, I'd got green hair, and I daren't argue with them about doing anything else to it, so I just paid up and came out." He said "can you take it short for me?" So I said "yes." Well, it had grown a tiny bit then so of course I took it right down to what we used to know as a....down to about number 2 and so it took all this green hair off and his own colour was just coming through. And so he was quite pleased about it. The thing was, I was quite busy and of course I didn't sweep up. I suddenly wondered why everybody was coming in the shop and they were looking at me, then looking at the floor. Of course there was all this green hair over the floor!
JP: Oh, right! So how in your opinion did it go green then...I mean if he just asked for a shampoo?
IW: He asked for a shampoo and there was a craze at that time for dyeing hair. That's why when they were all going round with this green and red hair..........
JP: So they misunderstood.
IW: .....in fact, a lot of youngsters were actually going to the shops and buying cochineal and food colourings to just do their hair with that, just to get a different colour.
JP: So, obviously he had a permanent colour in, he must have tried to wash it out.
IW: Yes, that would have been 'eighties, I suppose, early 'eighties.
JP: Oh, so he needed to go back and learn some French, didn't he! Yes. Two things about hair colouring, really. One is, can you tell if anyone's had their hair coloured by just looking at them, or is it so good nowadays nobody can really tell?
IW: Well, it just depends on when it's been done. Quite often you can tell because it depends on the age of the person. I mean you've only got to look at their skin and you can see, no that particular person shouldn't have dark hair because you can tell by their skin. More often they get the wrong colouring anyway. They don't go for their natural colouring, what they should have, they quite often go for something different that doesn't suit them. But I mean it soon grows, so after, you can tell if it's henna. I can normally tell.
JP: What about this other stuff which has always intrigued me, called Grecian 2000, how does that make the hair change colour......that's a gradual process isn't it?
IW: Yes, Grecian 2000 is very similar to the....used to be Morgan's Pomada, one of the first ones out.
JP: Morgan's Pomada?
IW: Morgan's Pomada ....it goes back a long time, it goes right back to, even back to the 'twenties. And that was a herbal product which would make the hair go dark slowly over a period of time. It did something to the hair, but I don't know how. It must have brought something out of the hair, what pigment there was left in the hair. Grey hair is just, well, really there isn't such a thing as a grey hair. There's a white hair; there's a colourless hair.
JP: So which of this is.....grey is the colourless one, is it?
IW: No, if you look at one hair, it isn't really...it's either got colouring in it or it's completely white and it gives that grey effect, the two together. If you look at the individual hair you'll see it's white. Another thing is, the hair is a colourless tube which is fed by pigment from the pigment gland to give it its colour and texture. As people get older that runs out, and the hair loses its colour and texture. It's as simple as that.
JP: So when hair's completely white that means it's lost every bit of colour; when it's grey it's still got some.I.It's still got that little bit left in it, yes. Normally the grey effect is caused by the white and the colour together.
JP: Yes, I didn't appreciate that. What about conditioner, what does that actually do to the hair?
IW: Well, it does help. It does help to replace any natural oils.
JP: Do you find that men are equally concerned about their hair and the condition of their hair, as women are?
IW: Oh, they do nowadays, they seem to.
JP: They do? They have id dried and conditioned do they, and so on?
IW: I think so, more than what they used to, I think.
JP: What's the difference between curly hair and straight hair, naturally curly and naturally straight....is it the shape of the hair, itself?
IW: Well, in actual fact, straight hair is supposed to more healthier hair than what curly hair is. Curly hair is deformed hair, the root or the hair folicle is distorted and it becomes curly.
JP: Oh, right, so that's a bit about hair and things that you are obviously an expert at knowing about. What about in the old days, what sort of equipment would they have had. I've vaguely got an impression of.....they had these leather straps they used to wipe the razor on, didn't they?
IW: Well, they used to be used to sharpen the razor, yes.
JP: Sharpen it?
IW: Strops, yes...to strop the razor.
JP: They actually were leather?
IW: Leather one side and canvas the other.
JP: How did that sharpen the blade then?
IW: Well, first of all, you're talking about razors. You had to put them on a stone first of all to get a rougher edge and then when you stropped it of course you got a finer edge. Every cutting instrument has got very small teeth and for shaving or fine things like that of course, you need a very fine edge and that's how you got your fine edge.
JP: Oh, I see, I wasn't too sure how they....worked. And what about these barbers poles outside the shop? they were still used up until when?....the 'sixties or.....
IW: Yes, quite often yes, that's right, they were.
JP: Striped, weren't they, red and white?
IW: Red, blue and white: red for blood, blue for veins and white for bandages.
JP: Really? oh, I didn't know that.
IW: And they originate from the barber surgeon days, when the barber used to do, used to be a surgeon as well.
JP: Yes, because that's how the famous Dimsdale family started...their father was a barber surgeon in Hoddesdon I think....not their father, their forebear, I should say. Did you have one outside any of your shops?
IW: No.
JP: Do you think in the future there's going to be a place for traditional barbers? I would think yes.
IW: As far as I can see, I would have thought so. Of course images will change, fashions will change, nobody knows.
JP: But you get a lot of people coming from outside of the town to get their hair cut, because you've got a good reputation for being a man's barber?
IW: Yes, that's right...I did have!
JP: Now, you came from Broxbourne to Hertford everyday on the bus...did you find that a pleasant journey?
IW: I didn't mind, I didn't mind really....a bit of a bind sometimes when it was cold but otherwise I never have minded travelling, really.
JP: No. Did you meet any prospective customers or customers on the bus?
IW: Mm, might meet a few....used to, years ago. more people have got cars now, at one time it was the only form of transport, really.
JP: Yes. So when you got to the shop, obviously you opened up. Where did you normally have your lunch...did you take it with you?
IW: I used to take sandwiches and have it in the back room.
JP: And have a break for an hour?
IW: Yes. I mean it was only when I took over the shop myself, otherwise there were two of us so we took in in turn and kept open during the lunch hour.
JP: People might come in in their lunch hour for a haircut. So what will happen in the future then, are you thinking you might get back or are you going to reture?
IW: I can't really get back to the shop now, but I'm still hoping, still trying to sell the place, but it's such an ordeal, messed about so much.
JP: Oh, really....is it actually your property?...is it......the shop?
IW: No, it's rented. Yes, I'm having to pay the rent and the rates and it's a worry, it's terrible.
JP: Oh, you're having ....gosh....so you still have to keep going with it even though you're not getting an income.
IW: No, it's been quite a worry..have you got that switched on?
JP: I can 'pause' it.
Later.
JP: I've just been asking Ivan if he ever had any famous people in the shop. You had.....
IW: Reggie Maudling used to come in.
JP: Quite regularly?
IW: And his wife used to.......
Side B
JP: Ivan was just saying that Reggie Maudling's wife brought the boys in as well. Were they local?
IW: They lived out at........
JP: Letty Green or somewhere that way?
IW: The other side of Letty Green.
JP: Essendon, was it?
IW: Essendon. Also em............ (pause)
JP: Did you ever get Frederick Forsyth in ?
No, we used to get Cecily Courtnidge's brother in law in.
JP: Was he local?
IW: He was quite a character: one of the farmers that always had too much to drink when they came in and he was master of the hunt. There's a funny story about him actually. Used to get the vet, one of the old vets used to come in, Andrews the vet that'd been going for a long time in Hertford, and Mr. Andrews used to come in and he's been retired for some years now and he was telling a story about one summer's evening he was doing his rounds out at Essendon and he saw this horse standing at the side of the road with the reins hanging. He looked in the ditch - there was Tim Muxworthy 'laying' in the ditch. So he checked him over - no, he was all right, he was just drunk, just fast asleep. He thought, I'd better get this horse off the road, so he was near to Tim's field so he put the horse in the field and then went and knocked on the farmhouse door and Tim's wife came to the door and he said "I'm afraid Tim's come off his horse - he's all right - he's just 'laying' in the ditch. He's had a lot to drink and is fast asleep, what shall I do?" She said "well leave him there, he'll come home in the morning....." she said "what about the horse, is the horse all right?" So she was more concerned about the horse!
JP: Yes. This had happened before, obviously, I should think. So she was going to leave him overnight?
IW: That's what she said!
JP: Oh, was it summer?
IW: It was a nice sumer evening, yes.
JP: Oh, yes, it was a summer evening!
IW: Andrews the vet was quite a character, he had a lot of stories to tell. He's another one you ought to interview, actually.
JP: Yes maybe it'd be an idea to do that. Where does he live now?
IW: He lives up Queens Road I think.
JP: I'll write him down as a possible for later. I think actually we may have him on our list, but I'm not quite sure.
IW: It's a lovely drone voice you know.
JP: OK all right. Have you ever had any rowdy customers...if they've been a bit drumk have they ever been troublesome or.....
IW: We have had one or two but a lot of them...they're more...I was always frightened towards the end of the time I was in the shop that there might be problems with rowdyism and that but a lot of the customers years ago, they used to seem to drink a lot and then all they wanted to do was to go to sleep, you know. They just didn't cause any trouble or anything. I had one, he always used to go to sleep when he was in the chair, he always had a lot to drink and it was on a Saturday and he kept going forward so all the time I was trying to hold him back with one arm and cut his hair with the other.
JP: Is that the one that had the broom propped up in the end?
IW: Yes, in the end the guv'nor...I said "can you help me, it's hopeless" he said "hang on a minute" and he got the broom and put the broom under his chest and propped him up.
JP: OK but you haven't had anyone come in and act in a violent way, particularly?
JP: That's good. I suppose the younger violent element wouldn't be attracted to your barbers shop.
IW: No.
JP: Well, I think then in that case we can stop now if you like,unless you can think of anything else in a few minutes' time?
IW: No, I can't think of anything else.
JP: And to say thank you very much once again for supplying us with all these wonderful details about hairdressing.
IW: You might as well have them now, or I might forget them.
JP: Yes, that's true, well if you think of any more you can just let us know. OK I'll stop, turn off now.
IW: I have got a few bits and pieces actually some time...I've got some hand clippers which the museum might like.
JP: Have you?
IW: I'm not sure where I've put them at the moment. Everything was done in such a hurry. So I'll try and sort things out...I might just as well not bothered to do everything in such a hurry.
JP: Well, you want to make sure you've finished with the use of them first, don't you.
IW: Yes, I know, that's the point. I got rid of a lot of stuff. I probably could have got something for it and I got rid of it quickly. This woman wanted to move in and I thought I'd better get it all ready for her. Solicitors let us down.
Finis