Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Dudley, Doris (O1996.26) |
| Interviewee | Dolly Dudley (DD) Jim Morris (JM) |
| Interviewer | Eve Sangster (ES) Jean Riddell (Purkis) (JR) Mary Ollis (MO) |
| Date | 19/08/1996 |
| Transcriber by | Jean Riddell (Purkis) Updated by: Marilyn Taylor 2018 |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O1996.26
Interviewees: Dorris (Dolly) Dudley (DD) Jim Morris (JM)
Date: 19th August 1996
Venue: West Street
Interviewers: Eve Sangster (ES) Jean Riddell (Purkis) (JR) Mary Ollis (MO)
Transcriber: Jean Riddell (Purkis) Updated by: Marilyn Taylor 2018
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
At some points there are separate conversations going on which are impossible to separate and transcribe
Side A
JM: They have researched enough of it haven’t they.
ES: I know, I can’t understand it because we were starting to do… we had a letter saying they were laying the television in Port Vale ….
JM: First one in Hertford.
ES: Right this is Eve Sangster at West Street on the 19th of August 1996 and we have got Dolly Dudley here with Jim Morris and these two are cousins. Jean Riddell and Mary Ollis right well we are going to begin, we looked at some old photos of Jim, I was going to say in his prime, but that seems to have lasted rather a long while. Jim you were saying something about…Jim has drawn a sketch of the “Angel” so would you like to say a bit more about it.
(talk over one another)
JM: It was partitioned off, this was, must have been a dance hall or something cause that was covered in glass at the top wasn’t it?
ES: Yes
JM: There was windows here and Violet “hummer”. It was procession day, there were a couple of processions going on.
ES: I know.
JM: She leant out the window and she fell through that glass, cut all her leg
ES: Oh did she?
JM: Now your Dad, George and all that they lived in this front part?
DD: That’s right yes.
JM: Granny (Morris) was down that bit there, then there was George Rist, and me and Dod we was right up the top here we was in the attic. There was wine and spirits ….
ES: Who is Dod?
JM: Me sister.
ES: Your sister.
JM: Ada, we used to call her Dod.
All talk together
JR: Were there any other families living there or just the Morris family?
JM: What in there?
Chair squeaks
JR: Yes
JM: Well next door was the Chambers, now there is one of them still alive. Ernie, he is over 90 that’s the one you want to get in contact with.
ES: Yes right we will.
JM: He is in that bungalow just before you get to Hoddesdon on the back road.
Transcribers note: Took some time to track him down to 8 Folly View, St Margarets, Stanstead Abbotts. He did do his own recording with Jim there.
DD: That’s right is Reg still alive?
JM: No he’s been gone a long while, Reg.
ES: Right Ernie Chambers.
JM: Ernie Chambers, yes he lived next door to us in that part
ES: Do you think he is in the telephone directory?
JM: Might be, I wouldn’t like to say.
ES: Chambers.
JM: I mean his er …
ES: I was going to ask you about that.
JM: He is 7 or 8 years older than me, yeah
ES: This is where Vi fell through the……….
JM: That window there yeah
ES: From the window.
JM: Used to open that window there and it came out on the roof, you could walk along the sides here but she fell through the glass. Always remember it was procession day . You can imagine this, it was just like that you know, but it was all glass you see, it must have been a dance hall at some time or another you see.
ES: Yes.
JM: That’s still on there it was the Wines and Spirits. Cause that’s in concrete.
ES: So there were all the Morris’s, there was your Grandma and Grandpa
JM: Grandpa oh yes, Uncle George, Uncle Charlie,
ES: George, Charlie, yes.
JM: Then Mum.
ES: Ada Morris.
JM: Yes.
ES: Were George and Charlie married then?
JM: Yes.
ES: So George was married to Hilda …?
DD: Hilda yes.
JM: ‘ cause they complained about the rent, it was 2 shillings a week.
ES: Charlie, who was he married to?
JM: Violet (Hummer)
ES: Right, we had a Charlie and Vi in our family. (Hummer)
JM: That’s their daughters in that photo there reverse says.
ES: So any more then, you and Ada’s children, so its Jim and Ada - lets call her Dod?
JM: Yes she was always called Dod.
ES: So we can sort her out from your mother. What other children?
JM: There was only us two there, that’s it yeah, the others didn’t come along till after mine.
ES: Right so that’s how it was at the beginning?
JM: Yes, that’s it. The other families was George and Charlie who was there and Granny. So there was four families in there.
MO: Can I ask, when it was your Grandma and your Grandma. Do you know when they first went to live there? When he came from Stevenage?
JM: He didn’t come direct to there, they went in the yard near the Three Tuns, Opposite there.
JR: Brewhouse Lane?
JM: No the other side of the road.
ES: Oakers buildings
JR: Oh Oakers buildings.
JM: Is it Oakers buildings there? There was a bit in the Mercury there was a photo of them in there, it was all old cobble stone things.
JR: So not Haydens Yard?
JM: That’s it. It is Haydens Yard, isn’t it?
JR: By the Three Tuns you said.
JM: There’s a gun shop there now.
JR: That’s Oakers buildings
ES: Opposite yes, why did you think it was Hayden’s yard?
JM: ‘Cause of the front buildings
All talk together
JM: We lived down the bottom and the front of the houses was where the boarding was …
JR: Yes that sounds like it.
JM: With the baths hanging outside every house.
JR: Well they are very similar these places you know.
ES: Now that’s is Oakers buildings, there are two views here, one from St Andrew Street, that one, then that’s looking up, and that’s looking down. Have a look at those two.
JM: That’s it.
JR: Is that it?
JM: Yes we were down here, one of these houses down here right near the bottom we was.
DD: Now Mrs Foster lived down there didn’t she, remember she used to pick there…she used to have a place you know where the memorial is now.
ES: Oh near Parliament Square?
DD: Yes.
JM: Its all coming back…it was quite common with the old baths hanging outside.
JR: So you didn’t take over Jim’s, your Grandma’s house, in Oakers buildings then?
DD: No that was my Godmother.
JR: But you lived there when you were a baby?
JM: This photo was taken down the bottom looking out, this was taken down the bottom.
DD: Mrs Foster was down the bottom. Yes I was born down there, yes.
ES: So you both lived in the same yard.
All talking together
JM: All this side, shacks, the lot
JR: When did they leave, which one was it, which house was it again?
JM: Right down the bottom here.
ES: This last one in that block.
JM: There is a woman standing outside.
ES: Is there?
JM: There was in the one in the Mercury and I swore it was me mother and me standing next to her.
ES: You know Jim says about those in the Mercury… You don’t think they…
JR: I don’t know which ones they are.
ES: No..I’ll go up and get that newsletter Jean
Talking together again
DD: There’s Oakers buildings down there.
JM: The thing was…
ES: It was one of these white ones though Jim wasn’t it? It wasn’t the one at the very end.
JM: It was the one with the wooden boards outside.
JR: So maybe this last one.
JM: That was your front and back door, there was no back door.
JR: No. I know they had nothing at the back, no windows either.
JM: No no just boards and all that down.
DD: That barber lived in St Andrew Street didn’t he?
JM: Barber?
DD: Yes.
JM: He was on the corner.
DD: On the corner yes.
JM: He used to take his wife for a ride on a 3 wheeled bike. He took her to Brighton.
Transcribers Note: This was Harry Whitby a barber
DD: Yes he did.
ES: That’s a picture of Oakers buildings isn’t it?
JM: Used to take his wife on the back
DD: That’s right yes.
JM: He was an old barber.
DD: Did they call him Bumpy?
JR: It must have been along here was it the barbers shop?
JM: No err.. yes just here, it would be right on the corner of the little archway.
ES: First one, right?
JM: Yes sixpence a time, tuppence for boys and children.
DD: Yes that’s right its and that’s the jewellery? shop there on the corner isn’t it?
JM: Yes right on the corner he was.
JR: I will mark that in then that’s right, its Oakers buildings yes.
JM: The thing was in them days you seemed to be moved from pillar to post, all the buildings were being condemned, they was rotten, that’s why they built these estates, they shoved us all up there…… same as down the green see that was a slum area so what they did they had to do, they built Horns Mill, that wasn’t big enough, they built Hertingfordbury Road.
DD: Hertingfordbury yes
JM: See that’s why you didn’t like it and there was another old place going you moved in there, for the time being when we come out of the Angel, Granny we went down Bull Plain, that’s little old shack right beside the river.
ES: Now I am glad you mentioned that.
JM: Uncle George was opposite the ragged school, the Salvation Army hall down there.
ES: Oh yes
JM: I used to sleep with Frank in the bedroom upstairs, that where we used to kill all the bugs and that.
DD: Yes that’s, oh yeah, you are right there - how true.
ES: Is that where you lived?
DD: Yes I lived there as well yes in Bircherley …..
JM: Uncle George was on the, at that time you would call it the dust cart, it was a horse and cart.
DD: Our dad had horses - he worked for the county council didn’t he?
JM: I used to go out of a morning, Sunday morning, go round there, picking up the fruit and stuff
ES: Seeing what you could.
JM: Few coppers an all sometimes.
ES: Right now… don’t know whether, you said in one of the interviews that you lived at the house, the first house past the clinic, these three are all….Oh yes but is all house really (the same) so which house was it?
JM: The first one by the bridge cause Les….
ES: Do you recognise any of these?
MO: Got a sort of corner to it hasn’t it, still there isn’t it?
JM: Still there yeah.
Talk over one another about the cottage
Transcribers Note: Listed building now 35 B and C Bull Plain. Used to be three cottage terrace now appears to be converted in to two.
JM: The next door neighbour there, he was a drunkard he was, Sandy something they used to call him, used to come home drunk, came all down Bull Plain, lived next door to Granny he did.
ES: That wasn’t Moulding?
DD: No.
JM: No, not Moulding - he lived down the green.
DD: Boncey Illot
JM: Yeah, Boncey Illot
ES: We want to ask you more about him in a sec but ….
JM: He grew tomatoes.
ES: Why? Gave him strength did it?
JM: I don’t know. Always seemed to be great tomatoes they was.
ES: Do you...I mean is it any of those three?
JM: That’s the one down Bull Plain
Transcribers Note: Jim identifies Uncle Georges cottage in Bircherley Street.
DD: That’s it
ES: Was I right?
JM: That’s the one.
ES: So this is Uncle Charlies, err Uncle Georges?
DD: Uncle Georges yes.
JM: That’s Bull Plain.
MO: Did your granny go there?
JM: Yes, I lodged there for a little while when I left home.
Talk over one another
ES: Jim: On this one which is the Ragged School and the Salvation Army.
Eve, Dolly and Jim talking over one another you can hear snippets but not well enough to transcribe to make any sense.
JM: They were all the same pattern all them old cottages was.
ES: Has he identified them?
JR or MO: Yes.
ES: Good
JM: Didn’t have no stair carpet, there was no fitted carpets. Ha ha.
DD: Newspaper on the table ha ha.
ES: Well I have worked out that Jim lodge briefly with your father in 1928.
JM: That’s it.
ES: When you were 13, you left school before 14?
JM: Yes, about 14 yes.
ES: I was just saying …
JM: I was with Frank cause Frank was about then you see.
ES: Your brother? (Dolly’s)
JM: Sleep in the same room.
ES: You see this was taken in 1932, not very different is it? I mean only …
JM: No I can tell its Bull Palin, I can tell...
MO: Oh easily.
ES: I mean its almost the time when they were there.
JM: I ain’t sure if there was two or three cottages there, all told, I know the one next door was a big fella always used to get drunk, Sandy something they used to call him. Yeah always drunk on a Saturday he was. Couldn’t wish for a better wife than he got, cor lovely wife he had.
ES: Shall we just look and these photos and finish them then we can get them off the table.
JR: Yes I think so.
ES: Oh you would like some sugar wouldn’t you
JR: doesn’t matter, leave it.
Discuss who has sugar etc.
ES: Oh we are doing quite well so far aren’t we, I am just checking …
DD: That’s the Premier.
ES: That’s where you both went on the stage?
DD: Yes, “Bathing in the sunshine”
ES: Did you sing that?
DD: Yes.
Talk over one another
JM: That your Mum used to work in there.
DD: Sings “Bathing in the sunshine, that’s my lady’s style, Bathing in the sunshine, the sunshine of my lovely smile.” I can’t think of any more.
ES: Oh that’s lovely well done, Clapping
DD: I know I used to have the umbrella………….
JM: That’s where I got my song from.
ES: Cause we have had Jim singing.
DD: Oh have you?
JM: Mammy
DD: Mammy yes
ES: That’s lovely.
DD: Mum used to scrub that out didn’t she?
JM: Yes I used to go there Sundays and help her.
DD: Was it Charlie Ballard or um… Charlie the sweet man?
JM: Bailey.
DD: Bailey, Charlie Bailey
JM: There was two brothers one of them owned the theatre.
ES: You say that was next door…?
JM: To the sweet shop.
ES: What, the Welcome?
DD: Yes, that’s right, Charlie and Dick.
ES: Charlie and Dick, they ran the sweetshop.
DD: Yes they did.
ES: Charlie and Dick Bailey.
DD: Bailey, yes.
ES: Which one ran the em…
JM: Two brothers they was, could be a Stan I think. Was there a Stan Bailey?
DD: Dick Bailey and Charlie Bailey
ES: Which one ran the Premiere?
JM: One of the brothers…….
DD: Charlie
ES: Oh Charlie
DD: Charlie Bailey, yes it was Charlie
JM: The other one was Stanley - after the Welcome and all that lot was pulled down he had the sweet shop on Ware crossing.
DD: He did, yes yes, he did.
JM: Bob is cause I was courting at the time and I used to call in there for a hot meat pies, tuppence
DD: Oh did you?
ES: Presumably in your day it actually looked like this, it was covered in posters, not like this, this is when it was the cinema I think.
********
DD: Next to it was Coppins wasn’t it?
JM: Coppins yes. Coppins was next door, Coppins from Cole Green
DD: Then on the corner as you are going down was Thistledoos
JM: That’s Fore Street the top end.
DD: That’s right Thistledoo cause we used to…
JM: Jim Roberts
DD: That’s right used to get stale cake there.
JM: Saturday night was cake night.
DD: Stale cake we got a bag full like that (hand gesture)
JM: Rock buns, cream horns, everything, tuppence
DD: That’s right.
JM: He must have been the best baker in Hertford.
DD: Oh he was.
JM: He done wedding cakes everything. Jim Roberts he was a Salvation Army man
DD: He was.
ES: Just looking at….
JM: Thistledoo.
ES: That’s right, there is a lovely photograph in the museum have you seen it?
JR: It’s in the book too.
ES: Oh is it, yes, I just wanted to check this, the geography , that’s, this is the Angel and next door is the Welcome, Ok Charlie Bailey.
DD: Yes yes.
JM: Next door to the Welcome was Smiths the milk shop.
DD: Father of…
ES: Oh. Yes that’s right.
DD: They use to shoe horses up there didn’t they?
ES: Is this where they……..
DD: That’s the blacksmith
ES: That’s where you say they shoes the horses up here…
DD: Yes that was up by the…
ES: Then coming…. There’s the Angel and then you say a cottage next door.
JM: Which side
ES: You see I have got the milk shop there, then the Welcome, then the Angel.
JM: You got the Angel, then that side was the Welcome, next, the other side was two dwelling cottages, Mrs Healey.
DD: Oh yes Mrs Healey, but that was the other side wasn’t it you’re talking about?
JM: On the right side, that side there, next to that was the Cross Keys
DD: Cross Keys yes.
JM: Cross Keys.
ES: Oh yes do you mean Mrs Healey lived in, had both cottages or she lived in one of them?
JM: In one of them yes
ES: Who lived in the other one? When you say…..is that Healey?
JM: It could be, I think one of the sons is still alive isn’t he?
DD: He is still alive yes.
JM: Last time I see him was in Icelands (now Marks and Spencer at the end of Fore Street)
DD: Used to go up the porn shop to see him.
JM: Used to work in the porn shop that’s right
ES: So then there was another cottage, then there was the…
JM: Cross keys
ES: Cross keys and then Barbers on the corner?
JM: Yes, there was a private house first next to Barbers
ES: A private house was a dwelling…
JM: Your sort, you know big house
ES: Right so there was a private house, belonged to Barbers
DD: and then there’s the maltings
JM: On the corner was the corn place
DD: ******* wasn’t it yeah
JM: But er it belonged to Barbers where they used to do all the corn and all that.
DD: Mr Allen.
JM: Allen he was the one that won the Irish sweepstake
JR: Oh I heard that, was he the manager there?
JM: Do you remember the it the Irish sweepstake?
Talk over one another
JM: He won on Tom Wells horse. April the fifth, that was the name of the horse. Tom Walls the actor.
Talk over one another
JM: Then they bought a house up Molewood
DD: Then the Maltings and you have got Bircherley Street
JM: Well there’s a road there
DD: Yes Bircherley Street
ES: Then here
DD: Public houses and all that
ES: Yes so what were these two, I wondered what this place was on the corner, it doesn’t really matter but then after Bircherley Street there was these two places, then there was the Lion’s Head.
JM: Yes there was two fish shops, the salvation army people… what was the name of them?
ES: Watts?
DD: Dodsons.
JM: Salvation Army people wasn’t they?
DD: Yes
JM: Youells or something………..
JR: Was it Tovells?
JM: Tovells that’s it
DD: Tovells yes
JM: Salvation Army people that was.
ES: Was that on the corner here? Of Bircherley Street
JM: No a bit further along
ES: Just before the Lion’s Head?
DD: Oh yes before the Lion’s Head yes
JM: By the Lion’s Head was a yard, was “The doss houses”
DD: Yes, lodging house
JM: Lodging houses sixpence a night, next to the gap then was a fish shop, Donoghues, they had a fish shop as well
ES: Yes is this all before the blacksmiths?
DD: Oh yes yes
ES: Well right, where was Donoghues?
JM: Donoghues, next to the pub, it was attached to it
ES: What in between Tovells and the Lion’s Head?
JM: No no there was Tovells and then there was a yard
ES: Oh I got that the wrong …….. sorry
JM: Cause you went up that yard to the doss houses
ES: Right that’s where the yard is
JM: Yes, next to the yard this way you got the little fish shop.
JR: Can I ask you, did Tovells take over from Dodsons then?
JM: They could have done yes
ES: That’s where we have got confused
JM: I distinctly remember they were Salvation Army People, why I don’t know but the other fish shop seemed to do the business
ES: Donoghues?
JM: Yes Donoghues, it was better fish and chips like in a way don’t know why.
ES: Did you …..
JM: The only one…….sorry….Tovell’s there they had sitting down, you could eat it there but you couldn’t in the other one you see. That was the gain he had.
DD: Used to get the cracklings.
JM: Free they was, the cracklings…..
ES: The skimmings
DD: Yes that’s right.
MO: Mr Morris, did you know the Patemens?
JM: Yes.
ES: Now they lived next to……
JM: Spoke to him a little while back.
MO: Oh, well I knew….
JM: Yes lives out there by High Cross, High Cross he lives now Pateman the one who…..
MO: I knew the sisters there was Ada (Adam) and Julie ( Dewey) and Harriett
JM: One lived up our way. She died she married um…….
DD: Emmy was a Pateman wasn’t she, she is still alive?
JM: Is she still alive?
DD: Emmy, the milk shop you are thinking of aren’t you in Railway Street.
JM: The milk shop yes, “Skim” we used to call her, nickname, we used to call her Skim (Skim Milk). ****** one that’s still alive was something to do with Waitrose he was the one I spoke to in Waitrose, he lives at High Cross. He goes abroad every year.
DD: That’s right yes
Talk together
ES: You see this is a photo of Patemens dairy and so on.
DD: That’s it.
ES: There was a yard here.
DD and JM: Yes
ES: Do you remember what it was called?
JM: That was Haydens wasn’t it?
ES: That was what we think it was
JM: I tell you who lived up there - O’Smotherly.
DD: Yes yes.
JM: The O’Smotherly’s one of them is still alive.
ES: Reg O’Smotherly isn’t it.
DD: Reg.
JM: I used to go to school with him.
Talk over one another
ES: I am going to put on the back entrance that was another bone of contention to Haydens yard.
JR: How do you spell Haydens’s ..do you… because that was another bone of contention
JM: Don’t know if its Hay or what
JR: Well we don’t know either but I will try and get Reg to tell me.
ES: Was it also called Kiddles yard?
JR: No that was Pavitts.
ES: Pavitts yard, what about what we saw….
JM: Coming towards Hertford way ….. you had the milk shop then you had a little sweet shop and newsagent
DD: That’s right.
ES: Oh yes and there was Wacketts cycle shop.
JM: We will come to that yes.
ES: Its actually next door to Patemens, look Wacketts
JM: Oh yes sorry the sweet shop was after that, it’s the same area, but there’s another yard there, then there was the sweet shop and you know under that arch there’s another yard there before you get to the church.
Talk together
ES: Is that where the almshouses were?
DD: That’s where the almshouses were near the church isn’t it
JM: That’s it on the corner was Scales the butcher
DD: That’s the one.
JM: Is that the one you were talking about.
DD: I said Sadlers ..Scales yes
JM: Scales the butcher , good butchers shop that was.
DD: It was.
JM: You could go in there and get threepenneth of pieces
ES: Could you?
JM: Threepenneth of pieces yeah, you never had no more than thruppence
DD: How about the sweet shop, not the Welcome,. Where we was just talking about?
JM: The Welcome
DD: No, Where flannel foot used to keep…
JM: That was the old lady up St Andrew Street wasn’t it, wore old socks
DD: Yes we used to call her flannel feet.
JM: Yes she didn’t believe in wearing shoes did she.
DD: She will not touch a sweet by had, she always used to use the tongs.
ES: Do you remember? We think that’s Miss Hoad. Do you remember the advertisements she put in her window?
DD: Yes.
ES: I know you do cause I remembered but I wondered what Jean had to say about it, I wonder how she phrased them? I mean if I wanted to advertise for a man I wouldn’t know how to go about it would you?
DD: I don’t know, I would now!!
ES: Man required for light duties.
JR: You actually said on the tape “Wanted a man” that’s all it said.
DD: Oh wonderful, Reg would come in handy wouldn’t he! I went to Blackpool with him a fortnight ago
JR: Did you, I wonder whether Reg O’Smotherley might know because he used to live in ………. That Jim is look………
Talk over one another
ES: That’s, it’s a long way before your time that’s down Kiddles yard, and that’s down Dimsdale Court, and that became Pavitts, and that became Haydens…
JM: Sorry where’s the school here, where’s the school?
ES: Well that’s St Andrew’s church
JM: Well the schools up …….
JR: We’ve got too big a scale for the school.
JM: Well it’s right by the milk shop there, up further St Andrew School always used to go there. There was one or two private houses, in between them there was the school. Old mother Turnball.
DD: That’s right.
JM: Used to wear the old lace round her neck and that you know and Mrs Reid, her husband was a school teacher an all, Mr Reid.
DD: He was.
JR: Was that Bill Reid’s wife?
JM: Could be and he went, well we all went, got turned out of that school and went to Port Vale school.
ES: How old were you then?
JM: At St Andrews school?
ES: When you were turned out.
JM: Oh about 7 or 8, something like that.
ES: Too hot to handle.
JM: Yeah we was yes, er.. er there was about 20 of us… Luddie Moulding, whole gang of us there was. One or two of the went to Cowper School, Frank Day………..the amazing part was the teacher gave us a letter to take home to Mum. Oh good news, it wasn’t though, your son, find another school.
JR: You have a look at that one Dolly and see if you think you know anyone there, its about your time, that’s Rose Wilkerson.
DD: That’s Rose is it, yes.
JR: I have got one for Jim as well.
Clattering and banging
JM: Who am I supposed to pick out here?
JR and ES: You!
ES: I mean somebody that you know so that we can…….
JM: Is that St Andrew School?
ES: Yes, then we couldn’t we..
JR: We think it’s about 1921, 20 – 21
DD: That’s Rose?
JR: She says its Rose yes.
JM: I would be 7
ES: Yes so you should just still be there
JM: Yes
ES: Unless they wanted you to go before they took the photo!
JM: Must be one of these over here somewhere
ES: I wondered if it was……
JR: Do you recognise….
DD: That’s Ada, oh that’s Rose…………
Tape stops abruptly
End of side one tape one
Side two tape one
JM: If it’s anybody it’s one of these here.
ES: You can have it all on the while, we can always put another tape in, we don’t have to transcribe the whole lot…….
JR: No but I changed over and I pressed record play and record must has come up again without me seeing.
JM: Do they still have mixed schools, I dunnow
ES: I think so, they have mixed hospital wards so they can certainly have mixed schools. Mixed everything.
JM: Now this is all altered now according to what I see on telly, running about all over the place.
JR: They do
JM: I can’t make it out they are running all over the place. I have said many a time I got the cane when I had said something to Mr Reid.
JR: Its going back the other way now, going back to the system…………
JM: More strict, yeah.
DD: Did you know Mr Honeyball?
JM: No.
DD: At Longmores? No?
JM: Well…….at Longmores?
DD: Yes at Longmores, then there was Kate Davis she was at Longmore School…
ES: Yes I remember her, she was …
DD: I think she was the headmistress…..
JM: At St Andrews was old mother Turnball she lived a bit further on and I know Mrs Reid and her husband was a school teacher, Mr Reid.
DD: She used to take us for netball.
JM: The main point was in them days they couldn’t master us, they weren’t strict enough, all you got was a ruler on your knuckles. That wasn’t good enough.
MO: Were you ever punished at school?
DD: No no
ES: Well you didn’t have this Mr Reid?
DD: Yes I knew him but I didn’t have him as a teacher no Miss Arkle
JM: I think the one at Port Vale at the time was a boys’ school wasn’t it
DD: Port Vale was… yes.
JM: Just for boys.
DD: Later it became mixed.
JM: Major Upton was the headmaster.
DD: That’s right, Major Upton.
JM: But they were more strict then, you got the cane, you got it across your backside, you get it everywhere, that learned you. They wouldn’t learn you here of course. Well you knew if you did something wrong you would get punished. ********* just roar around and get a smack on the hand you know.
ES: Shall we just hastily ask these questions to the queries you have got from the other transcripts Jean.
JR: Yes
ES: Go through that as……I wondered which members of the family worked for McMullens?
JM: What?
DD: I did.
JM: You did an all… did your Mum work there?
DD: Mum did, yes.
JM: My Mum.
DD: Dolly
ES: Hang about, Dolly, Hilda, Jim, Charlie Watson
DD: Charlie did didn’t he.. we all used to call him “Wag”
JM: Charlie he was on the steam wagon
DD: That’s right
JM: Mike
ES: Ada, that’s your mother (Jim)
JM: Yes, you got Hilda.
ES: Yes, Dolly, Hilda, Jim, Charlie, George, Ada, Mike
JM: Grandad.
ES: What was your grandfathers name?
JM: William Morris.
ES: William Morris, ha, we knew they were a talented family didn’t we!
JM: Cause he used to be on the covered wagon. Used to have a pair of horses.
JR: Do you think that’s why someone was called “Wag” because he went on the waggon?
DD: Yes, well we always used to call him Wag I don’t know why.
ES: You say your grandfather’s name William Morris was written on the waggon.
JM: No no, it had got Macs written on it.
ES: Oh I see
JM: I think you can still see that covered waggon, its on show Stevenage way somewhere, North something. A place called North something, Hatfield, Welwyn way somewhere.
ES: Yes, we thought there might be photos in McMullens museum. Did you ever go on staff outings or anything like that?
DD: No.
ES: Did they ever take your photo at McMullens?
JM: I have got photos of the brewery, inside.
ES: Yes are there any photos of the staff Jim?
JM: No.
ES: I mean there was that photo of…
JM: Oh yes that one, that’s for long service.
ES: Yes.
JM: That’s long service
ES: I wondered if they ever had a photo of like the bottling department…
DD: No no.
JM: The only other one is, when you said the carnival …
ES: Do you think……
JM: Ada Morris was queen, the carnival ones you know.
ES: Do you think there would be a picture of that, there might well be, mightn’t there?
JM: Might well be, yes, down there by the library they’ve got a museum part there.
DD: How about old Bill Ball
JM: Bill Ball yeah
DD: He was a lovely man.
ES: I wonder what …wonder what year that was when your mother was the carnival princess?
JM: At the time we was down at the Angel
ES: So that fixes it.
JM: We was down at the Angel cause the procession used to come all the way by the Angel.
DD: They did, didn’t they.
ES: So it must have been between 1920 and……you were still living at home?
JM: Then yeah, yeah
ES: So 1920 onwards?
JM: Cause I can remember me stepfather he used to have a long pole with a box on so he could get up at the windows and collect the money.
DD: Yes they did, yeah.
JM: 10 ft long this pole so they could get at the windows. People would be at the windows so you’d poke this box up to them you see on this pole. Otherwise they was avoiding it you see.
ES: What ….
JM: In them days it was a procession it was. There’s somebody down there, where Wacketts the cycle shop, that yard there, used to keep a lot of monkeys.
JR: Oh was it Fitkin?
JM: Fitkin during the procession he had these big cages with all his monkeys and all that in. Cause he lent one or two to the White Hart round the back.
DD: That right, I remember that.
ES: Joan Neal told us about that… she used to look at the monkeys on a Saturday afternoon.
DD: They was all down there wasn’t they.
JM: That was up that yard by Wacketts ( 77 St Andrew Street) there, where the sweet shop was on the corner, and the pub was the other side the Lion’s Head..
JR: Red Lion?
JM: Red Lion that’s it yes Red lion, (61 St Andrew Street) when I used to go there. Mr Long used to keep it then.
ES: Which one was that Jean?
JR: Wacketts was in between Haydens and Pavitts
ES: Yes Pavitts yard.
JR: I am pretty sure it’s Pavitts
JM: Almost a dozen cottages there was up there, both sides.
JR: It must be Pavitts, Haydens only had about 4.
JM: And they was brick built - they weren’t like them old ones with the wood at the front.
JR: No, better ones ,that went right through to where the new consumer products (Which?) is. Dick Darton lived down there didn’t he?
JM: Yes I went to school with him.
JR: I am sure he would have some stories about Fitkin if we wanted any.
ES: Which family lived in the barn at the Angel? You know there was a barn on stilts.
JM: Relations of the Chambers weren’t they? I used to do the shopping for them…
DD: At a price.
JM: Yeah well, that’s were the barrow used to come in handy
ES: I used that little barrow last week, to go to the allotment
JM: That was all right wasn’t it!
ES: It took a bit of nerve to do it.
JM: Didn’t half make it easier on a Saturday, used to have to line up at the Co-Op. Yes that person we was just taking about, what the name, can’t think now.
DD: I can’t think who was in that barn.
JM: Oh yes that’s it, it was a relation of the Chambers, no children just man and wife, nice people they was. That barn was on stilts.
DD: Well Daisy, you know Daisy don’t you, Daisy Chambers is still alive.
JM: Is she, oh.
DD: yes I was talking to her last Thursday cause she was ***
JM: Oh I took her out one day.
DD: Oh did you?
JM: Yes I was down there..
DD: I was talking to her on Thursday night at Bingo at Waggers. Arthur Mills goes there.
JM: Where does she live? Cuffley way?
DD: No she lives now, um, oh dear,
JM: Daisy would be older than me I think.
DD: You know as you go in to Bengeo and then…oh wait a minute I have got to think of the name.
JM: Oh I didn’t think she was still alive.
DD: Oh yes she is.
JM: I know when they left there……
DD: I will give you her name and address, I am sure I have got it at home as well, I will give you her name and address.
JR: Oh thank you.
JM: Cause the other one we were talking about, Ern, that’s her brother.
DD: That’s right, Ern.
JM: I know Ern is still alive. He is over 90.
JR: Is she 90?
DD: She’s about, what, 70…
JM: 82 ….I think she’s 80
DD: I will get the address…
JM: I know I took her down the meads once
ES: You told me that your wife was the first girlfriend you ever had. Now I hear about Daisy Chambers.
JM: Yes, well you have to say that don’t you.
All laugh
DD: She lost her husband
JM: They lived at the Angel and all you see.
ES: I was a bit puzzled Jim, you said your, you and your sister had the same father didn’t you. But he wasn’t married to your mother.
JM: No
ES: But you later said your mother got a widow’s pension. I just wondered….
JM: Did they automatically get it?
ES: I am not ..I didn’t know.
JM: 10 shillings it used to be.
ES: She obviously got a pension but I am just surprised it was a widow’s pension if she wasn’t actually ……maybe it was more like a child allowance.
DD: I know we used to get grass money.
JM: Yes grass money that was just down to the poor, the grass money was what they got for Hartham and all that the fairground and all that.
ES: It is possible, we could change that to just say pension not, I mean its unlikely to have been a widow’s pension.
MO: So you had a sister…
JM: Yes that was Ada, “Dod”.
MO: Oh yes, I’ve got it.
JM: That’s her on that photo. There she is standing next to Mum.
ES: Oh yes what else did I see, oh yes I was just querying …you said a bushel wheel but Jean said that’s from a barrel. You said about using a bushel wheel for a hoop.
JM: Bushel….
ES: A bushel wheel, well of course I may have heard it wrong. For a hoop, and iron hoop. What would you have…..well anyway you don’t remember?
JM: It was a bicycle wheel, take the spokes out.
ES: Oh, bicycle.
JM: Take the spokes out.
ES: I just misheard that
JM: But the other ones, the hard ones, they was manufactured, the old iron hoop, you used to have a hook and skim them along.
DD: That’s right.
JM: But the other ones you used to fix up yourself, old bike wheel took all the spokes out. Used to go to school with these wheels.
Talk together Jean heard showing a photo of the river.
JM: That was what we used to call the willow hole because it was quite deep…
ES: WILLOW… after the tree?
JM: Yeah.
DD: That’s where it swerved
JM: Yes it swerved round, it wasn’t quite so deep, it was shallow, it was just like a swimming pool that’s where we learned to swim. Used to come out of school, take our clothes off, stop in there-didn’t come out cause we didn’t have nothing on see….
JR: That was called the Willow Hole, right?
ES: Dolly’s just saying she lost a child in a drowning accident.
DD: Yes well I will tell you where we lived, in Port Hill you know. And there was the water works next to it, Ronnie my son he went down the garden…
JM: Cause you backed on to the river?
DD: That’s right, and he must have climbed and toppled over and we went up the front to see if he was up there and people kept saying “Oh he’s just gone across Hartham to the fair” cause we took him there and then somebody else said they was at the castle. In the finish they found him along where the bowling green is, you know.
ES: How old was he?
DD: Two.
JM: When you lived in Port Vale, we were just talking about relations there, do you remember having a party with Brian, me son. Me son, he fell in the fire, yeah they was playing about, all kids about 3 or 4 they was, yeah cause we all had fires then. It was Christmas time, a rip roaring fire, all blisters all came up. He fell backwards, one of the children like pushed him a bit and he fell backwards in to the fire. Brian did that was around Christmas time.
ES: You on side two now?
JR: Yes I just wanted to ask Dolly actually, we don’t know quite where you lived once you left the Angel, I wonder if you could tell us a few of the places you lived when you left the Angel.
DD: When I left the Angel?
ES: Ehere did you come from? Where were you born?
DD: Oakers buildings from there we went to Bircherley Road from there we went to, not Hornsmill, yes Hornsmill didn’t I. Cranbourne, yes Cranbourne.
MO: Was that before the Angel or after the Angel?
ES: No - Bircherley Street then you went to The Angel?
DD: No that’s where I come from then went there, then Hornsmill, that when you said Jim had the…
JM: Yes that’s where they moved them all from down Bircherley.
DD: That’s right, yes, you got it.
JM: That was a slum area.
MO: So then Hornsmill?
DD: Yes and from there we went to Port Hill. Mum and Dad moved.
JM: Yes because your Dad worked on the council and them houses belonged to the corporation.
Talk together repeating what’s just been said
DD: Joyce is still in there.
JM: Is she?
DD: Yes my sister Joyce she bought that in the finish, cheap,
JM: I say they belong to the corporation, George worked there, yes.
ES: You know when you said about, Jim, you know when you went to handicrafts?
JM: Yeah.
ES: Was that in the Greencoats school or Cowper school?
JM: Next door to the Cowper School there was a building alongside, a small building, not sure if its still there or not?
JR: Is it opposite on the other side of the road?
JM: No same side as the school was
JR: Same side as the Cowper school?
ES: It wasn’t this? You see that was Greencoats school.
JR: Ah yes …….
JM: Yes that’s it, it’s a separate place.
ES: That is the Greencoats school which wasn’t a school at that time but was used by various special classes. This was…..did you actually go to the Cowper School>
JM: No no.
ES: You just went to the Greencoats annex in a way.
JM: Yeah Mr Sharp was the master, Mr Sharp
ES: So you went to Greencoats, Mr Sharp?
JM: But that’s was for all the schools you see. I was at Port Vale, I could say today, or day there was a Thursday or a Friday something like that. Another day was some other school.
ES: It was like a woodwork centre?
JM: Yeah.
JR: So you never actually went to the Cowper School?
JM: No, no not at all.
JR: I thought you did.
JM: I had the choice see, I went to Port Vale. See we had a letter, we had got to go to another school.
JR: That was from St Andrews wasn’t it?
JM: So you had a choice of that or Port vale see, and I took Port Vale.
JR: You went out then for special classes.
JM: I ain’t sure what days, there was one, I made a welsh dresser and that cost me 1s 9d for the wood. Before that you did 7 articles, pastry board, toothbrush rack, box, bread board 7 things it was then after you had done that you had the choice of what you wanted to make. He was a right stickler he was old Sharp, specially when you put glue on the fireplace and it stuck, he’d got a temper.
ES: Was he fierce?
JM: Oh yeah - whatever he’d got in his hand he would throw it at you. Anything he’d got in his hand. One day we put glue on the old combustion stove, oh that did stick you know, “who done that?” and a tool‘d come flying through the air and he’d get hold of a lump of wood….bang! he’d got a temper he had! Not like today, “oh you shouldn’t do that”. We didn’t do it again.
ES: Have you been speaking about Boncey Ilott ?
JR: Not yet. I was going to in a minute
JM: Old Boncey, yeah.
JR: Just before you get on to Boncey Ilott you told me about a chap called that Pup Pincher.
DD: He did yes.
JR: You also said he lived in a lodging house, its not the same lodging house we have been talking about?
DD: No this is the one down Bircherley Street.
JR: Jim do you know anything about this?
MO: You know Pincher don’t you?
DD: (Noise of something) and went round Hertford with a tray selling favours for the Oxford and Cambridge boat race and all these old song books - can you remember him?
JM: I didn’t take no particular notice of him.
DD: I always used to go there for tea.
JM: The Muffin Man
Transcriber’s Note : The Muffin Man was Walter Taylor who lived on Port Hill
DD: I used to go round and see him
JR: Whereabouts on this map was the lodging house? Could it be up there?
JM: Used to be a shop up the yard.
DD: That one was … I am talking about the one………..
ES: This is Railway Street and this is Bircherley Street, so where would it have been?
JM: Yes the one with the fish shop.
ES: Oh, lodging house yard.
DD: Yeah.
ES: So which was it I wonder , sorry don’t worry, I have never noticed this yard before have you? Lodging house yard.
JR: I have but I thought it was …
DD: Yes it was there because I used to go in there.
ES: Do you think to get to the lodging house you actually went in to the yard?
DD: You had to go along…
ES: Yes.
DD: Its on the Salvation Army side?
ES: That’s right.
DD: But not as far, about half way
ES: Well that’s exactly half way, then did you turn in?
DD: No you went straight down and there was the lodging house there and Pincher had a little place of his own.
ES: Well you see it might have been, these were almshouses in 1881 but they might have been lodging houses by then or maybe he lived in one of these beehive cottages or something?
DD: Yes yes, you could see your face in his shoes. He shined them so well.
ES: You can’t remember him?
JM: No I can’t think.
DD: Reg O’Smotherly he might know.
JM: O’Smotherly will, yeah.
JR: Oh I will ask him then. Pup Pincher, we don’t yet know how he got his name “Pup” Pincher.
DD: Pincher yes.
JR: Was his real name Pincher?
DD: Unless it was his nickname I should imagine, wouldn’t you?
JM: One was Dick Dye and there was old “Snatcher” wasn’t there? Old “Snatcher” don’t know why he was called “Snatcher”.
DD: Now you were going on about Boncey Ilott?
JM: Well down Maidenhead Street there was a a butchers shop and they put all the meat up oustside. Well he took one leg you see.
JR: Oh I see
JM: They called him “Snatcher”, little short fella, used to look after the Corn Exchange.
ES: Snatcher what?
JM: Lowes
JR: Oh we will put that down anyway. Alright then, we will go on to Boncey Illot. Anything else you know about him?
ES: I was just going to say……
JM: I knew Boncey Ilott because…
DD: He used to drink didn’t he?
JM: No, a big strong fella he was.
DD: He was.
JM: I remember on one occasion at the theatre there was a competition of wrestling and he entered in for it you know. Yes there was a wrestling match, you know, to beat this man, they bought this what was there you see. Well you couldn’t beat this man because he had round shoulders, if you have got round shoulders you cant put two shoulders on the floor can you? They couldn’t beat him you see. I always remember it cause he got hold of you, you had no shoes on, bare feet and all that, he dug his nails in to his heel, sold whatsit, and his father looked after cars in front of Gravesons in that car park. Salisbury Square
DD: That’s right yes.
JM: Grey hair, got a beard and all that, yes he almost died a millionaire.
JR: What was his name then?
JM: His father, Ilott
JR: First name.
JM: Boncey we used to call them both.
JR: Oh Boncey as well?
ES: Oh Boncey senior and Boncey Junior
JM: You know, where the White Hart is, that was a big open space, before that it was all pulled down, it was a cycle shop, Greens the grocers and all that and then it was a big open space. People used to park there see and he was unofficial, he wasn’t nominated for it or nothing, he just used to stand there and when some one collected their car he got thruppence or sixpence you see, that’s how he got his money.
JR: He was a minder for the cars?
JM: Looked after the cars see, but it wasn’t official or nothing see, but he was doing a service for the community.
ES: You say Boncey Ilott lived down where you lived, was that when you lived in Railway Street or when you lived in Bull Plain?
DD: No he lived down where Sarney’s was
JM: ** the other side of the road, you know it’s a bit of a restaurant now isn’t it, down there near Mrs Warner. There was a yard there.
DD: Yes there was, yes.
JM: Boncey Ilott lived right down the bottom, I am trying to think there was a man there used to saw wood up and sell it and all that, he had an old saw bench, Sarney’s lived down there and on the corner was one of the Watts used to sell pickled onions..
ES: That’s Ruby Henry’s father was it or Ruby Henry?
DD: Oh I know Ruby yes.
ES: Ruby Watts.
JM: Another old man kept the fish shop.
DD: Is she still alive?
ES: Yes in Chelmsford Road, we have interviewed her a couple of times.
JR: Are you talking about this place called Providence Court then?
JM: That’s it, yeah.
ES: Still smokes woodbine 60 a day(Ruby)
JR: And Lager she has
DD: Her son used to, George, do you remember George Henry?
Talk over one another
DD: She went in our old house, number 10 it was Chelmsford Road.
MO: Oh did she?
JR: Right.
ES: I am anxious about this but you are keeping an eye on it aren’t you?
JR: Paradise Court….yes I am keeping an eye on it
ES: Only because half an hour is not very long is it.
MO: Where is Paradise Court then?
ES: Past Parkins, you know where Parkins used to be.
MO: Yes.
ES: Well it’s either …
all talk together
ES: We think it was the next one before the Friends Meeting House
DD: I know there used to be, when the salvation Army gave up down the green, over where the Lord Haig, next to it, cos Cliff Mead, he lived next door.
JM: Cliff was down that yard with Sarneys.
JM: That was opposite Bircherley Green where Dye the chimney sweep was.
ES: You don’t know Cliff do you?
MO: Yes Cliff North.
DD: I was talking about Cliff North yes….
JR: I have got his transcript with me.
Talk over one another
ES: You can’t remember the name of that yard, whish one it was? I mean we half thought it was, we think it was Haydens.
JM: It could be.
JR: I will try and find a picture, there were two yards down there one one side of the Friends Meeting House and one the other. Now the one nearest South Street we think was Haydens or Eddins Court.
JM: Haydens stands out to me.
DD: It does to me.
JR: The other one which was the Dyes side,
MO: The chimney sweep.
JR: That was called Providence Court.
JM: Dye the chimney sweep was right opposite the Angel, across the road.
JR: Yes.
JM: Next door to them was a second hand shop, Mrs Mills.
JR: That’s, Dyes, Mills……
MO: Oh.
JM: Her son is still alive, they sold second hand clothes and all that, that was right opposite the Angel.
Talking over one another
JM: Dyes, Mrs Mills and next to them was a clothes shop Fields (Fielding) and they sold all such things as buttons, needles and everything, that was Fields.
Talking over one another
ES: Do you recognise that yard?
JM: Yes that’s St Andrew Street way isn’t it?
ES: No.
JM: Isn’t it one of them down there?
MO: Well I said it was the back of Woolworths.
ES: It says Haydens Court, but you see this is supposed to be…. It says here that this is Maidenhead Yard which is the one at the back of Woolworths.
JM: That one there...
DD: Jim might know.
JM: I tell you who might know more about that is the Cowells.
DD: Oh yeah Tommy Cowell, yeah.
JM: That was granny’s sister, she was his mother, right?
DD: Yes yes.
JM: Granny’s sister was Tom Cowells mother.
DD: He’s not alive now though is he?
JM: No but one of them is alive though, spoke to him a while back, lives up Sele Farm.
JR: Who’s that?
JM: A Cowell, he was a train driver.
ES: COWELL?
JM: Or COLLEL isn’t it? Cowell something like that. They lived down there ..was an alley.
End of tape One side two
TAPE 2 Side one
ES: COWELL
DD: COLL
JM: When you say it….
ES: Cull? Not CULL?
JM: You don’t spell it as you say it, don’t you?
DD: Coll I think it is yes.
ES: Oh I see yes Coll… you reckon its Sele farm
JM: He lives up Sele Farm yeah, I spoke to him a while back.
ES: Did you?
JM: He was over in the Cowper Arms the restaurant over there. Cowper Arms, yes he generally goes over there for Sunday dinner.
ES: What number..can we still talk Jean?
JR: Yes.
ES: What number Russell Court did you live…?
JR: Which side of the court, is it only one side there or two?
JM: Left.
ES: You don’t remember the number?
JM: No, couldn’t even count one to ten let alone anything else.
ES: You told me you were good at arithmetic
JM: Yeah I am yes very good, spelling no,
ES: I can tell that!
JR: Right but you don’t know the number?
JM: I used to get out of school early for sums cause on a Friday Major Upton used to put a sum board, a big sum and when you’d done it you could go home and I was one of the first.
ES: Oh I see that was a good incentive then.
JM: Yeah multiplication and that sort of thing.
ES: So we were just talking weren’t we about…
JR: We were talking about Boncey Illott originally, any more about him? Why was he called Boncey did he have a big head or something?
JM: He was a big fella, physical, you know….
DD: Don’t you remember “up the navy”
JM: OOOHHHH if you met him in the street, ooh he’d call you everything ……eff and blind, out load, yeah………
Talk over one another
JR: So you used to say it to sort of taunt him?
JM: Yes that’s right, he was a navy man but he didn’t like it you see. So we used to say “up the navy” it didn’t matter where he was , he blasphemed like anything….but that’s a point you see them days there, you had all these drunkards but nobody was knifed or murdered. I can’t remember that ever happening?
DD: No I can’t.
JM: What d’you get now? I daren’t go out at night time. It’s shameful really when you…
ES: It is shameful.
JM: I was playing outside till 11o’clock at night and all that business, we was running in the streets, everything, playing with our tops….
DD: That’s right.
JM: No ‘arm came to us. Cor dear.
JR: So “Up the navy” wasn’t ….. what else did he do, what did he do for a living?
JM: Just hear and there, a bit of navvying like, no regular job or nothing
JR: Where did he live? The Green?
JM: Somewhere down that way .. Would have been in the lodging house.
DD: Could have been, yeah.
JM: I think it was in the lodging house, didn’t see a great lot of him, you know, not many years,
Transcriber note: Research suggests that Boncey was Frederick Parker Ilott born 28 May 1891 son of John P Ilott born about 1836 in Aston Road. They were living in Bircherley Street in 1901. The wife and mother was Mary born about 1852 Westmill, Buntingford. She was John’s second wife.
There were a lot of children and we wonder if the two Bonceys were actually brothers rather than father and son as it is a complicated family tree. Frederick was supposed to be in the Navy for 12 years from 1909 but was discharged in 1910 on conviction of theft. This may explain his dislike of “Up the navy” ? He married Elizabeth Violet Blanche Windmill on 30th August 1924 which may explain why he seems to have “disappeared” they had 4 children and he died in 1933. On the marriage certificate his address is given as 63 Railway Street, hers as a house in Queens Road. His gravestone in High Cross has the wrong age for him. His widow remarried Henry Charles Odell in 1934 and she died in 1974.
DD: Everybody used to lock their doors cause there used to be a fight down there sometimes didn’t there Jim?
JM: Well that’s down on a Saturday night the Luddie Moulding’s and all them, Sandy Taylor,
ES: Sandy Taylor.
JM: Sandy Taylor, that’s the one, now its come to me, he used to lived next door to us down Bull Plain.
ES: Right.
JM: That’s the one I was trying to think of Sandy Taylor, he had a lovely wife - a lady she was. And he used to come home like that. He worked hard as a navvy then boozing, Sandy Taylor and he lived next to Granny when we was down them cottages, down Bull Plain.
DD: Oh that’s the one is it yes.
JM: Yes that who I was trying to think of, but his wife was a lovely woman you couldn’t believe that was her husband.
ES: Just to finish off Bonsey Illott, so he lived down one of those, probably Paradise Court of something?
JM: That was over the other side, Mrs Warners side, father and son
JR: And they were both called Boncey?
JM: Yes, both called Boncey I think the sons name passed on to the old man.
JR: Were they both called Boncey at the same time? Yes so you didn’t know who you were……
JM: Old Boncey had a big old black beard, scruffy, yeah he looked like a tramp.
ES: When you used to go round with uncle George, round the market and helped, was that market in Bull Plain?
JM: Market street everywhere.
ES: Everywhere.
JM: The biggest part was up Market Street, you had the covered market as well, went all the way up to the cake shop, Thistledoo, both sides, that’s where ****** get a feed from them I did.
Talk together.
JM: …along Bull Plain
DD: I used to go along and pick the specs up.
JM: That’s right, that’s what I was just saying. Me and George **** may have been bruised or , you would be surprised the odd pennies or tuppences we would pick up.
ES: Stalls all along Market Street.
JM: All along Market Street yes both sides.
DD: It was a lovely market, sweets, the banana king…
JM: When I was 12 all the way up to 14, I worked on them stalls in the market, 5 of them, Holmans, old man Holman he died a millionaire he had all these garages in St Albans, Hertford, Hoddesdon, did you know…
ES: Only from you.
JM: Before they done that they had 5 stalls in there selling second hand furniture, crockery, soaps, everything like that and I used to get 13s 6d…
ES: That wasn’t bad money.
JM: … a week, I used to go to Ware an all, I stated at Ware market, was where, you know where Tesco clothes shop is? On the other side of the road there, that bit there,
ES: Oh was it?
JM: Yes not where it is now, used to do Hoddesdon market, yeah old Reg Holman died a millionaire.
DD: We had the Banana king didn’t we?
JM: Yeah the Banana king, Orange King.
DD: Used to throw them at you.
JM: The Banana King yeah that’s all he sold bananas, when the bananas come they come on a bunch like that, a shilling, sixpence, just held them up, you know.
DD: And that was good bunch you know.
JM: Oh yeah you could have a dozen bananas for that and they were cut straight off the stick then there was the Orange king, Banana king, yeah china one.
ES: Did you want to ask some more about Larley Cole?
JR: Yes well, there were some other names you mentioned, well you told some things about Larley Cole, I know you have said some of that already but Jim might be able to add a bit, Larley Cole was a wood seller wasn’t she?
DD: No.
JM: No, Maudie Mead.
JR: Yes but you said that Larley used to go to Jewsons and buy bits of wood.
DD: No that was…
JR; And I said Maudie Mead used to do that and you said yes she did.
DD: That’s right, what was her name Mead
JR: Maudie Mead she had this truck she did….
DD: She used to chop the wood didn’t she and bundle it up and come round selling it. Larley…..
JR: What did Larley do then?
DD: Larley well she was a woman what used to drink and …
JR: Ok carry on.
DD: She used to wear the long dresses you know and when she used to go home if she wanted a wee she would just stand over a drain in the road and just put her legs like that and just….
JM: That was hygienic…
DD: Yes well …she did Larley, her son is still alive isn’t he? What’s his name..Johnny, well we call him Johnny Row.
JM: Johnny Row yes, now would that be the same Johnny Row that did all the fighting with Mouldings and that?
DD: No.
JM: A big man, I was just saying they lived on tomatoes, he would go and buy a pound and eat them lots of different ways.
ES: Who’s this?
JM: Johnny Row
JR: Oh he was the tomato eater?
JM: Yeah
JR: Not Boncey?
JM: No no no
JR: So Larley didn’t, I have got on a transcript that Larley sold wood.
JM: Then there was another man Chalky, used to come round with a barrow with the chalk for whitening the steps penny a lump, Chalky he was called.
DD: Oh yes.
JR: Yes no, that’s the one, Dick Darton used to go and move the horse down the road.
Dolly is talking in the background about washing.
JM: Chalky used to go up Ware Road the place up there near the golf links that’s all chalk there that’s where he used to buy his chalk you see. Because they used to want it to whiten all the steps you see. Used to be a penny a lump.
JR: Yes I know where you mean, the lime kilns.
ES: Dolly was just saying her ma used to chalk her washing.
DD: You know chalk round the washing thing, you know where you used to put all the washing in push it down with a dolly. Then boil it up.
JR: Round a coal boiler you mean? Oh I see yes.
JM: That’s what we used to do round the Angel.
DD: Then we used to go along to Mr Warby who was on Port Hill
Transcriber’s Note: Joe Warby’s “Little Boot Hospital” on the brow of the bridge between the old Duke of Edinburgh and Bridens bakehouse.
JM: He was a shoemaker.
DD: Yes shoemaker and the old pieces of leather and the old shoes and bung it on there for Mum to boil her washing up on. Used to put all the rubbish, potato peelings everything.
JM: I think I mentioned that…
ES: Oh to stoke the fire with?
DD: Yes.
JM: Thing we used to do, get an old potato sack and go round the sweet shops collecting all the boxes. There was one down there next to Woolworths the Castle cabin used to get a load of boxes there, a sweet shop. Tucked in there, it’s a little clothes shop now isn’t it, tucked in there next to Woolworths. Castle cabin yes too the potato sack and get all these cardboard boxes, back at the Angel out in the yard was a stables and wash houses and had this old copper ******
ES: But you get value from it that way , when you say the Green do you mean Green Street or…
DD: No Bircherley Green.
JM: That’s the Green.
MO: The bus station now isn’t it?
ES: So it wasn’t Green Street it was Bircherley Green, right?
JM: We never said Bircherley we used to say “The Green” …you had a road going in to it.
JR: Yes yes, what about, you mentioned several times on your tape, Mrs Bulley, was she a particular friend?
DD: Mrs Bulley, I knew her and I knew George Bulley..
JM: Ted.
DD: Ted yes ************
JM: One of them worked at Allenburys ********* I think that was Ted I think, I know it was one of them.
Talking together
JM: I know over at Allenburys one worked there he died he did…….that’s when it was Allenburys. Its Glaxo now cause the two brothers worked there.
DD: That’s right, yes.
JM: Yes one with a club foot, married, um, what’s her name, her comes round **** with a little trolley..
DD: Yes I know who you mean.
JM: Flo……….used to work with her brother………Flo
DD: Does she live in the almshouses?
JM: Yes in the Almshouses up near All Saints. Flo something?
JR: What about Maudie Adams - was she a particular character or just a friend or…?
Talking together
JM: She had a little truck……
JR: No Maudie Mead.this was Maudie Adams you mentioned.
DD: Jack Adams you mean? It was Jack Adams used to live down the Green.
JR: OK.
DD: Do you remember the Adams they moved to Chelmsford Road?
JM: I was familiar with the Claydons and all them.
DD: Then there was the Colemans.
JR: I might be wrong but I thought you said….
JM: There was a ton of people down there and of course we associated with them all down there. Just the odd one stood out. Same as when we was talking about these two persons what lived in the barn, kept themselves to themselves.
DD: They did yes.
JM: Probably there was only me what knew them cause I did the shopping for them.
DD: Was her name Bond, that woman you was talking about?
JR: Bond?
DD: Yes Sherry Bond’s mother.
JM: Oh what that? ……Bond - yes that’s it.
Talk together
DD: You know my son, he has got him to manage his pub cause Reggie had an accident didn’t he.
JM: Yeah he ain’t got it now though Bond has he he’s finished with the pub.
DD: Oh yes but he helped.
Talk together
JM: He’s doing a bit of lorry driving, he’s got something wrong with his eyes. Bond that is .. (talk together ) ********* he stung his mum for everything money, cause when he died he left money.
Very confused section of who they are talking about over one another may be talking about Maudie Adams or someone else.
JR: Was she a very particular character or not?
DD: Not really, not in Hertford no.
JM: Maudie worked at the brewery for a little while, she worked down the brewery for a little while Maudie did.
ES: Did she?
JM: Yes while I was down there.
JR: Maudie Adams?
DD: No Maudie Mead, Jim means…
JR: Oh right.
JM: Maudie Mead.
DD: There are so many Maud’s…
JR: Yes we got totally confused there between …
JM: She had the biggest truck, cor did she have a big *********** used to push it around in all directions.
DD: She used to push that, here comes Maudie.
JM: Used to push it, big old wire wheels on it, Maudie Mead.
ES: When you say in this transcript, um, we are talking about Jim, Jim Morris oh that’s right they did move down Gashouse Lane way?
DD: Yes.
JM: We did move down there.
ES: Gashouse Lane?
JM: Yeah Mead Lane.
DD: Mead Lane.
ES: When was that in your …
JM: I was about…..
ES: After you left the Angel?
JM: Oh yes after all that.
ES: Was it before Bull Plain?
JM: I was courting then.
ES: So …
JM: cause I used to take the wife down there to tea.
ES: So this is obviously before Russell Court then because you moved there when you married didn’t you? You moved to Russell Court when you were married? Did you Jim?
JM: Russell Court where was …oh yeah I remember Russell Court yes that’s it.
ES: That was…
JM: I got married there,.
ES: That’s right married at Russell Court, so where were you before you went to Russell Court?
JM: Er..yes Hornsmill, with granny, we went to the new houses,
ES: Right Hornsmill with your Granny.
JM: Every Sunday Uncle George, Uncle Webb used to go up there and used to play cards.
DD: That’s right yes on a Sunday
ES: With Granny. OK.
JM: Yes
ES: I am trying to fit in Gashouse Lane, when would that have been. After Bull Plain with Granny, Hartham Lane.
JM: After that yeah.
ES: After Hartham Lane. So let’s put that in.
JM: Would have been about a year before I married cause I took my wife down there to tea, and Ron was down there with his girlfriend.
Transcribers Note: Jim was married in 1935. In 1939 his mother, stepfather and sister Ada were at 17 Spencer Street. Charles Watson his stepfather was a bottler at the brewery.
ES: So did the whole, did the rest of the family live there then? Your stepfather and …..
JM: Me stepfather and …
ES: …and your Ma
JM: I didn’t stop down there long.
ES: No.
JM: Didn’t stop down there long, they got itchy feet I think.
DD: They died there didn’t they Jim?
JM: Yes she went in that home, that hospital up Gallows Hill. Yes I think they did. He died an all…
DD: He died yes.
Transcribers Note: Jim’s mother died in 1971, his stepfather in 1956.
ES: When did they move the people down to Hornsmill? What year was it?
JM: Yes 1935.
JR: Quite late then, cause Sele Road was the first.
JM: Yes cause I got one of the houses after it was 2 years old 1937 (12 Pearsons Avenue)
JR: 1935 the move……
JM: Cause the house I moved in to at Russell Court, they condemned it, cause it was condemned they had to find me a place, yet they are still there in 1995. I will tell you who lived next door there, Bobby Sage.
DD: Yeah Bobby Sage.
JM: Serves in The Ram now he does Bobby Sage.
DD: Does he?
JM: Yeah he helps in there, take the houses there now (Russell Court), well what it was the waters outside, toilets were outside just bring them indoors and the house is alright again. They belonged to the landlord of the Bell and Crown (Cowbridge) I used to go in the pub there and I had me **** on me back and asked if he had got an empty cottage, cause a lot of landlords had houses they rented out, ten shillings a week, I remember the little house 7s 3d rent 7shillings and pence a week including rates. Seven and thruppence 1937 I have got the rent book at home.
JR: But did you miss, living out there, did you miss not living in the town, living right out there, Did you miss the town?
JM: No it was more healthier, you went to the woods and all that business.
JR: You liked gardening?
JM: Yeah we had a garden, you couldn’t stick a fork in Bircherley Green!
ES: Did you actually move to the house you are in now?
JM: Yes.
ES: It’s a very nice house isn’t it, they are ….
JM: I have been in there about 60 odd years now. Seven and thruppence rent.
ES: I am not surprised.
DD: Was it really?
ES: Its so spacious and the garden…
Talk together
ES: Oh you have never been there?
DD: No never been there.
ES: When you say about and then there was Godfreys and then there was the milk shop and up the yard there they used to shoe all the horses, but presumably, that isn’t the same blacksmith as this one is it?
JM: Would that be the blacksmith at the top of the brewery, Gunners?
DD: Oh yes I know ********** that part you know the Lions Head.
JM: Norman.
ES: Is that the blacksmiths you mean when you say then there was the milk shop because I thought the milk shop…..
DD: That’s in Railway Street yes
ES: Because I thought the blacksmith was there and then up the yard where they used to……
JM: The milk shop was Smiths.
DD: Then there was a yard.
JM: That’s right up that yard
DD: Then there was Baileys then up that yard ……
JM: Then there was Colemans next to it.
DD: Colemans, yes that’s right.
ES: Which one’s that?
JR: The directory.
ES: Oh yes yes, so…
JM: There was Smiths the milkman….
ES: Then there was a yard.
JM: Smith had the yard, the yard belonged to Smiths,
ES: Where was the horse-shoeing taking place?
DD: Right at the end.
JM: Right up the top yes.
ES: So actually you could have had your horses shod either there or there (looking at map)?
JM: Wide enough you could get a horse and cart up that yard, see cause Smith had a cart and that you could put a curn on it.
ES: Then Baileys, what did Bayleys do?
DD: They were a sweet shop.
ES: Oh that was the sweet shop I was just going to say to you..
JM: That just goes to show the size of our yard we was. Next, there was the Welcome, our yard went all the way up there we used to have a football team in there, cricket and everything.
ES: Then Colemans?
JM: Coleman, then Godfreys,
ES: What was Godfreys?
JM: Tailors.
ES: Tailors, right.
JM: They used to make the Oxford bags (Type of trousers). Then Chitty Wren.
ES: Wrens the……..
JM: Bakers on the corner
DD: Wasn’t there a shoe place there?
ES: Colemans yes we did say Colemans, have you found it Jean?
JM: Some relation to the one on Millbridge?
DD: Millbridge yes.
JR: It’s alright we are not near the end of this side just yet. I just wanted to have a look and see if there were any gaps at all. This is a street directory.
DD: Is it?
JR: I’ll just check the streets... Right Railway Street, lets check them shall we?
DD: Cause you knew I lost my daughter didn’t you?
JM: I’m not sure whether Lil…yes I think Lil did tell me. How old was she?
DD: 54.
JM: Oh dear, I think Lil did tell me yeah …so who you got at home with you now?
DD: Only Reggie till he’s really better with his foot.
ES: You say here about Jim Morris’ sister Joan?
JM: That ain’t me sister Joan ain’t, that’s Nobby Clark’s sister.
JR: Oh I see.
JM: Ada was me sister.
DD: Yes Joan is….
JM: You should go and see her, she’s up Sele Farm.
DD: Yes she’d tell you a bit more.
ES: Who is this?
JM: Joan, daughter of Rose.
DD: Yes what is her surname?
JM: Wallis (Wallace)
DD: That’s right you got it.
ES: Joan Wallis (Wallace). Now where does she live?
JM: Sele Road.
DD: Anyone would tell you up there.
JM: Up behind the hospital, Joan yeah that’s it, saw her the other day in Iceland’s
DD: Yes with her bike and…
JM: Oh got pains all over and all that….(laughs) …. I did get away from her... cor dear, I saw her the other day and I said “I can’t stop I am going swimming” I said …..
DD: That’s right Joan **********
Talk together
JM: One, two, three, Nobby, Joe, Joes in the background.
DD: Joe he had a stroke.
JM: I saw him the other day in Tesco, even Nobby ain’t that great he’s been cut open, ha ha.
DD: But Joe he never drinks or …
JM: No it’s funny ain’t it?
DD: And he’s suffered more than the others.
JM: Makes you wonder don’t it.
ES: Did you take sugar?
JM: Yes.
ES: You do that’s right, I’ve got….. just to make sure
JM: Just shows you.
DD: There’s no justice is there.
JM: Don’t drink or anything, smoking, all that lot then you get another one just booze and smoke, weren’t me!
DD: Then Roby, yes, she lost her husband early.
JM: Roby, yes she ‘s still up Horns Mill.
DD: She lost her husband.
JM: I think her children left home unless she’s got one at home.
DD: She’s got one son.
JM: Is there one at home?
DD: Not sure.
JM: She lost her husband early. Fred.
DD: Yes yes she did.
JM: Yes Roby used to like her.
DD: How long has your wife been gone?
JM: Just under, be three years come February, yeah.
DD: My husband’s been gone 19 years. Reg, you know.
JM: ********* used to go with him to Port Vale School
DD: That’s right….long time isn’t it?
ES: Is that still on Jean?
JR: We have got a little bit more. Do you want to go to the end of this side?
ES: Well yes. You ask what other questions you have got. I wanted also to show the one showing the yards so well.
JR: Yes.
JM: See in those days there were lots of yards weren’t there?
DD: Yards yes, no cars like now, there was hardly any was there?
ES: Have you got it, the one we have been looking at?
JR: I had it in the car, did I bring it in?
ES: Is it in the hall?
JR: Might be
JM: Don’t you take sugar then or are you afraid of it?
JR: I do actually.
ES: Now this isn’t the one we really wanted, the one …
JR: Most of them I have got out here. There we are I was writing these down here because it might be useful for me.
JM: I haven’t got me glasses.
ES: You’re a fine one.
JM: I tend to see alright.
ES: This is …. This actually is 1881 but still…This is the Angel public house.
DD: Yes yes.
ES: The Angel and there’s a sort of an alley. There, this is the front, this is Railway Street.
JM: So the front must be here then?
ES: This is the front here.
JM: That’s it yes, got ya, I was wondering what this was…
ES: That alley bit ..what there…
DD: ***********
JM: Big gate there …there was… you could go up between the Angel and..
ES: There a building over it was there?
JM: The barn.
ES: No I thought there was a building over here?
DD: Where I am thinking of , I may be wrong, but that’s the Angel and the…
JM: There was a big gate next to it.
DD: There was a big gate..
ES: What, on that side?
JM: On the same side as the Angel DD: as you were coming in to the Angel.
ES: On the left hand side then if you were looking in to Railway Street
DD: Yes.
ES: So you reckon there was a gate here?
JM: Yeah you could sit on that front ****
ES: There was the gate.
JM: Big old wooden gate.
ES: Now this looks like a barn. Then it ran all the way down.
JM: Yes yes that’s where you know what we was taking about …the smithy.
ES: So you see 40 years before you lived there this big yard next door was called the Angel Barn Yard, or Marrowbone…no it wasn’t Marrowbone was it
Talk together
ES: Was it a big space like that?
DD: Yes it was a big space wasn’t it.
ES: You say you used to go from here to the Green?
DD: Into the Green yes
ES: Well how did you go, what down here and then what through there or somewhere? How did you get ….
DD: No I come from where the Welcome is that path used to go straight along to….
ES: Oh I see.
End of tape 2 side 1
Tape 2 side 2
DD: .. Wrennies cant you.. you know
JM: … else you don’t get no sleep if you went… that’s another street.
DD: Was it called the City?
JM: All over the place it was. You went in here all through there and came out the other end.
DD: Yes you could.
JM: And all the cottages were all higgledy-piggledy - the Claydons, the Lyons…..I always remember old mother Claydon she used to have all them old rags and bones all in the yard.
ES: Oops sorry…you won’t be able to see this then Jim, I mean that was, yes you’re right that’s Fore Street, this is Railway Street. That’s the Angel there….
DD: That’s the Angel is it …yes.
ES: You see this is… this is Salisbury Square. This is 1922 this map.
Talk together
ES: The yard that was called Angel Yard or Marrowbone Park would have been sort of built in by then. I mean this is Wren’s.
DD: Wrens, yes.
ES: And that was whatever, that looks like Coleman’s does it?
DD: Colemans, Humphries, the milk shop and then there were the archway it went to where Baileys yard was and the milk place and then up that yard was you know….doing the horses.
JM: The yard at the back of The Angel was enormous wasn’t it?
DD: Oh yes.
JM: Cos they had the barn, they had wash houses, stables.
DD: How about, across the road there was Mrs Mills wasn’t there?
JM: I just said that yes, the second hand shop, her son is still alive, he lives at Bramfield.
DD: Ron. Yes he lives at Bramfield
ES: That’s where your stepfather…
JM: Used to mend the shoes
DD: Yes.
JM: Before I got there used to ******** (laughs) Mrs Mills second hand shoes.
DD: Yes we all used to go to Mrs Mills.
JM: How many times used to call on Dye, what’s his name, front place with the glass roof, where George used to play cards on a Sunday with the…that’s big old roaring fire there was trap doors there was, chimneys on fire, cause the chimney went up like that went along like that then went up used to catch light so they put a trap door in there see. Yeah, cause couldn’t afford the sweep it, Mr Webb.
DD: Used to catch it alight didn’t it?
JM: It was handy really.
DD: The chimney.
ES: Oh I see.
JM: It was handy then call Mr Dye out.
DD: Used to put a bit of paper up the chimney to clear it.
JM: Oh yeah they did that, you know when they moved on the the estates I had one like that, they used to clean the chimneys themselves. (Couldn’t afford a chimney sweep)
DD: That’s right.
JM: My neighbour … I said flames coming out the top there.
DD: That’s right.
JM: Cause they had no central heating or nothing.
ES: You were one of seven weren’t you?
DD: Yes.
ES: Is that including the one who died? One of your brothers or sisters died?
DD: Oh June, June my sister June who married Peter Whittaker she died didn’t she.
JM: Are the two boys still alive at Gallows Hill?
DD: Georgie and Charlie yes, no they died.
JM: When I was at the maltings one of them come over there.
ES: I thought one of your brothers and sisters died when you were young.
DD: Oh Lily, yes do you remember Jim her brother underneath the umberella, ********* you know the All Saints one.
ES: With such a big family how did you all manage, how many rooms did you have at the end.
DD: Oh not many…..
JM: Well they didn’t worry about one in a room.
DD: Well we had two at the bottom of the bed and two at the top.
Talking over one another
ES: How many did you sleep with?
DD: I slept with 4 .
ES: What two at the top?
DD: Two at the top and two at the bottom, yes.
ES: So somebody’s feet you were cuddling.
JR: When I was doing that transcript I made a mistake I think I have got you down as one of seven but I have only got six names did we miss one out?
DD: Of Mum’s family you mean?
JR: I will read them out Frank, Ivy, …
DD: Frank, Ivy.
JR: Then you.
DD: Me yes, then there was Georgie, Charlie, Lily, Joyce.
JR: Joyce I didn’t get her down.
DD: June.
JR: Oh two more - so there was more than seven?
DD: June was when we were still on Port Hill.
JM: Your mother was a good midwife wasn’t she?
Talk together
ES: Cause she was an amateur midwife.
DD: No no (training) she was just a natural. It just come to her didn’t it?
JM: I would say she were more efficient than what they are today in a way ************ I’d come home from work and there was ************* she was a hard worker wasn’t she – she was one of them.
ES: Is that still on?
JR: Yes.
ES: You said about her cleaning various shops, I mean I know she cleaned the Premier.
DD: Yes and she cleaned Baileys shop?
JM: Baileys, yes.
DD: The sweet shop.
JM: She was a good old scrubber wasn’t she?
DD: Yes and then there was Hiltons, and then there was the Regent and she used to go charring you know all different places.
ES: A hard life with 8 children.
DD: Oh yes very hard.
JM: You could see by looking at her she was GR you know tough!
ES: Have we got a picture of her? A photo of her Jim?
DD: I must ask Ivy, she will have one.
ES: Yes cause you know while we are about it, getting all this stuff, we might as well have a picture of her mightn’t we.
DD: Yes
JM: Only one thing that stands out for me, not that you would tell anybody, she was “boss eyed” wasn’t she?
DD: Yes, yes she was.
JM: That stood out, her eyes but it didn’t affect her or nothing, you don’t see that now today do you really.
ES: No it’s quite rare.
Talk together
DD: I will ask Ivy for a photo, I know I have got one of my Mum somewhere but it will be up in the loft.
JM: Nobody took no notice of it then you see.
ES: No no.
JR: More common wasn’t it?
JM: Yes, oh yes ... is that the brewery there, yes it is. Don’t know if we were looking at it or looking at something else.
JR: Yes because its funny in this directory...
JM: There’s Uncle Charlie.
JR: Yes all the properties the other side of the Friends Meeting House coming this way were all gone by the time this directory was produced so its no use!
DD: Yes there’s only….
JR: There’s a bit in here, do you know somebody called Nanna Thomas at all?
DD: Nanna? Oh yes.
JR: Oh do you?
DD: Lives in Bengeo.
JR: Yes.
DD: Oh yes he lives up, opposite the Church, Nanna.
JM: Talking in the background about his knee talk over one another
JM: Now I live up Hornsmill and all I know is the name of me neighbour don’t know all the others at all, when we lived down there …..
DD: We knew everybody.
JM: You could ask me …I don’t know.
ES: But is it because they are a different age to you? I mean are they all much younger?
JM: Well no they are all different ages up there.
ES: I just wonder I mean for instance we….
JM: Well it was one big community.
ES: I know.
JM: I mean it should be a community at Hornsmill. I only know the name of me neighbour.
DD: Do you know I lived in Ware…
JM: I have to call the Mrs so and so…
ES: It’s strange isn’t it?
DD: Since I’ve lived in Bengeo, cause they have altered all the road now, Glebe Road, you know, and all the children down there, all the little ones, you know, like that, it’s the honest truth I hardly ever knew them, they all say “hello Dolly” I say “Hello dear” you know and pass the day with them. It’s lovely you know to think they call me Dolly. One mother said “Oh you mustn’t call that lady Dolly” I said “Its all right dear they all do that” .
ES: Right.
DD: Yeah I think so, yeah.
That’s what I find now people ask me did I know Mrs so and so died…..I was saying only two or three doors away an all.
JR: When you were down in the town you had to share things like loos and water taps didn’t you? You had to share.
JM: Oh yeah. You didn’t lock your door. It was just a shed door on to the yard really.
JR: Well no, but now you have got all your utilities in the house, you don’t need to go anywhere. You have got a big garden to keep you away from the neighbours as well.
JM: Yes that’s a good thing, the gardens.
ES: Because you are a little bit off the beaten track aren’t you, your house?
JM: Well, in a way.
ES: Well Jim has to go up a sort of alley, a path to get to his house.
DD: Yes there’s only two houses though isn’t there?
ES: Yes but what I mean is in regards knowing your neighbours, its not in the front garden with people going past, saying “Hello Jim”.
JM: No no Its like, you know, I’m there then there’s a hedge, this is a private house now, I don’t even know the name of them. They didn’t speak nor nothing.
DD: Cause it’s all different up there now Jim.
JM: I even cut a couple of trees down for the couple that used to live there…didn’t even say thank you.
JR: In a minute at the risk of changing the subject I wonder if I could ask you how you got on in The Angel with cooking and washing up and things like that.
Talk over one another
JM: To this very day I can see it now, the old kitchen range.
DD: That’s right.
ES: Did you just have one and you all had to have a turn at it?
JM: What’s that?
JR: Just have one range?
JM: No no Granny had one in the other room, if you look at that building you will see the chimneys going up.
JR: So you all had your own separate place to do your cooking?
JM: Yeah but you only had the one copper hole up in the yard, the copper hole up there, took it in turns.
JR: So you all used that?
JM: I can still remember going in there on a Friday and the oven there, rock cakes, brawn …..
DD: Oh yes.
JR: Cause there is a lot of cooking ...
JM: Me Mum used to make puddings they was as big as footballs, you know with sultanas and now what woman today would sit down and take the pips out of sultanas.
ES: No one in their right mind….
JM: They did then, they used to sit there… I mean they are done for you now.
ES: Yes I think that is an improvement, Jim. Well it is for the woman.
JR: Where did your Mum store, when she cooked all this food where did she store it?
JM: You didn’t store it you ate it, it lasted the week.
JR: Yes well that was Ok then, it didn’t go off in a week?
JM: No not a plum pudding or anything, you had no fridges,
JR: Was there a larder?
JM: A marble slab
ES: Oh right I see and I suppose the sort of thing that would go off like meat, you didn’t have that much of it I don’t suppose did you?
JM: Oh yes you did every day, but you ate it the day you got it see.
ES: Oh yes but you had it fresh every day
JM: Yes fresh every day, she used to go down the butchers.
DD: Stallabrasses.
JM: Our main one was Earls the butchers down Port Vale
JR: So something you got in every day really.
JM: Yes but the main shopping was Friday, went down Maidenhead Street, Walkers stores
DD: Greaves, Walkers stores….
JM: International
JR: Now when it came to washing up, you had to get a bowl and put …
JM: You had the old stone sink,….
ES: Like a butler’s sink?
DD: Not very deep was it.
ES: We have got one outside.
JM: They use them now for gardens for plants.
JR: Did each family have their own sink as well?
DD: Yes
Talk over one another
JR: So you had to share the sink?
JM: More or less yeah.
JR: So where did the hot water come from?
JM: You boiled it..
JR: On the stove?
JM: Yeah a kettle or a saucepan, we had an old iron saucepan.
DD: We used to put a brick in the oven.
Talk over one another
DD: No hot water bottles.
JM: We had this old tin bath, then you had to toss up for it, who was going to be first one in cause the third one still got to get in there …
All Laugh
JM: In the summer don’t bother go down the river.
JR: What about the cleaning up? Was that done with brushes and ….
JM: A broom, just had a broom, no vacuum cleaners, no fitted carpets.
ES: Mats I suppose.
JM: Had a peg rug in front of the fire you made that yourself.
ES: When you say the stairs used to be washed from top to bottom, was that your mother did that? Or did you ever…
JM: I didn’t….
ES: No no I couldn’t quite tell from the tape.
JM: Didn’t get washed all that often, used to get brushed. You knew when you was going to bed plop plop plop plop……
DD: No carpet on the floor.
JR: The floors were wooden were they?
JM: Yeah wooden boards.
JR: Not stone
JM: No no no no all wood.
JR: Well sometimes….. did you have any mice and things like that?
DD: Oh yes.
JM: I think that’s on my tape in it? This was when we was up the top in the attic part there , this is the honest truth, I laid in bed and the houses then were lathe and plaster, there were holes all in the walls, I got one on me hand, I was in bed.
All talk together about mice and bugs
JR: Did you have to keep a lot of cats and things then?
JM: Mum had a cat but it became lame.
ES: Still another mouth to feed though…..
JM: The cat feed itself, used to bring a pigeon home, many a time that one down there used to bring a pigeon home. Yeah you know when you think about it when we were down there we must have lived in filth.
DD: The bugs - I was just saying the bugs.
Talk together
JM: Frank and me used to get these candles and burn them, these were all these smoke marks where we had been burning them. They were about the size of a ladybird.
DD: They were yes.
JM: You know the bed joints were they ….they got in there, you had all marks on you.
OOOOHHH
DD: I don’t think I could do it now.
JM: They moved to the new houses and they took them with them, then they had to fumigate them, they had to fumigate the houses, board the windows up put this gas all in ….
ES: I suppose, you seem a fairly hardy lot, I wonder how much harm it did you?
DD: Not a lot did it really.
Talk together about diseases etc
JM: There is a joke you see about these bugs ----the way you used to cure them, cause they were all in little holes you see, so we used to go down to Walkers Stores the grocery and get these split peas, used to put one in each holes so they would come out and have a pee- laugh
DD: That was the joke!
JM: The other joke is, you like a joke?
ES: I know you do!
JM: You had a whip under, that’s the jerry a whip under so one night me and frank heard “ chuck another board Bill, chuck another board Bill, chuck another board Bill,” I said to Frank what’s that all about, so I went to listen “chuck another board Bill”, it was the Jerry there was these two bugs on the rim trying to get across one was shouting “chuck another board Bill, chuck another board Bill,”
ES: Still it didn’t do you any harm , you have lived to tell the tale.
Talk together
JR: In the new houses presumably, they didn’t have a problem but in the old houses was there any way of getting rid of the bugs.
JM: Keytons powder but who had got the money to buy it? Keytons powder killed the bugs. Do you remember them, Keytons powders?
DD: I wondered what it was.
Talk together
Fill in forms
Tape Ends.