Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Phipps, Nora (O1994.21) |
| Interviewee | Mrs. Nora Phipps (NP) |
| Interviewer | Jean Riddell Purkis (JR) |
| Date | 24/02/1994 |
| Transcriber by | Jean Riddell (Purkis) with additions by Susan Hitch |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O 1994.21
Interviewee: Mrs. Nora Phipps (NP)
Date: 24th February, 1994
Venue: 99 Willowmead, Hertford
Interviewer: Jean Riddell (JR)
Transcriber: Jean Riddell with additions by Mrs Susan Hitch 2017
Typed by: Jean Riddell and Susan Hitch
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
Nora came from the well-known Hertford Crane family. This family first lived in Hartham Lane and later moved to Hertingfordbury Rd, where Nora thought she was born.
JR: This is J R speaking from 99 Willowmead on Thursday 24th February 1994 with pr- interview nerves before going up to 33 Sele Road to talk to Mrs Nora Phipps
………..
JR: here we are at 33 Sele Road with Mrs Nora Phipps and she is going to tell us about her maiden name
NP: My maiden name…
JR: Yes was it Miss Crane?
NP: Yes Miss Crane yes
JR: and I understand you come from a Hertford family?
NP: Yes
JR: and they were living first of all in Hartham Lane?
NP: Hartham Lane that’s right then in Hertingfordbury Road, yes
JR: When you came upon the scene they were living in Hertingfordbury Road?
NP: Hertingfordbury Road yes
JR: Can you tell us a bit about the family and the house please
Transcribers note: This terrace of houses was known as the 'step' houses and were on the corner of Hertingfordbury Rd. and Cross Lane. nos. 36A- 48. now demolished)
NP: Well it was a big house (no 40) we had 2,4,6,8 rooms. 2 cellars, mother used to do her washing down in one cellar and she had the copper and the mangle there. In the other cellar we played games and we had a swing then we all had our chores to do, the boys bought the coal up, chopped the wood and us girls had to do on the domestic side. The coal was shot through a window in one of the cellars. Upstairs we had a front room which was used only on Sunday. Then we had a kitchen with an old fashioned fireplace (range) one side heating the water and the other housing was an oven. Mum had to cook with the hob and the kettle to hot the water then the stairs were in the kitchen also. The first two rooms my parents slept in one and my two brothers had the other room. Then up another flight of stairs which was the biggest rooms of all and in the big room we had two double beds and three of us girls slept in one bed and two in the other bed and all we had was candles and a lamp downstairs on the kitchen table to eat our meals and that with. The toilet was outside and we shared a tap between two neighbours.
JR: There were quite a lot of children in the family weren’t there?
NP: Yes, there was ten of us, five girls and five boys. But we lost one brother when he was 34, and erm…what else…oh, we had to carry the water to wash with, we had a washstand with a jug and basin in each bedroom, and we had to carry the water right from downstairs to the top of the house to wash with when we got out of bed, and we used to take a bucket up and empty it. And erm..we just had plain meals, and the only luxury we had at Christmas was a chicken and that was only once a year, but my mother was a lovely cook, she baked all our own bread and cake, because she came from Yorkshire where they did that. My dad was a builder at McMullen’s, and I had a brother and a sister that worked there, and I myself worked at Simpson’s the printer’s in erm…opposite the memorial in Fore Street like. My brother and my younger sister and myself worked there. And my other sister, she was a bus conductress, one of them Mabel, the other one was in service, the other sister, and my brothers – one was a postman – no, I tell a lie, sorry, he worked at the glove factory at Horns Mill, and the other brother, he was a butcher, he worked for Earles’ the butchers all his life, until then…that’s all about the house…
JR: Yes, I’m interested also in, as you had such a big family, who they all married. I mean, some of them must have married into quite well-known Hertford families
NP: Yes, my brother the butcher, he married into the Mills family, her mother kept a second-hand shop up Railway Street. Perhaps people will know the Mills’s ever so well, possibly, yes. But I think that’s about the only one, because my youngest sister, she married a… he was a Dr. Barnado boy. He was an electrician.
JR: Yes. What was his name?
NP: Temple. But he wasn’t a Hertford boy. Neither was my husband, my husband came from Woolwich. His father was an army man, and he ended up at Woolwich Arsenal, had his own office and people under him, and it was very nice. And two of my – my sister, the one next to me, she never married at all. She worked at – she was
JR: Is that Rose?
NP: Rosie, yes. She never married so she lived with my auntie and uncle, they lived – they had a café down Mead Lane, on the corner café, and then of course when my auntie died she went and worked at Briden’s shop in Port Vale and she was there until she retired. My other brother worked with us at Simpson’s, and my eldest brother, he was (pause)… I think he was a builder, Arthur.
JR: What was the age difference when you were born?
NP: About eighteen months. Between all of us!
JR: When you were born?
NP: My mother pushed four of us in the pram. Three in the pram and one walking beside her. She used to tell us stories about it. There was only about eighteen months, two years between all of us.
JR: How old was the eldest when you were born, would you say? About fourteen?
NP: He would have been…there was eight after me, so he’d have been – five before so he’d have been two , four, six, eight – about sixteen
JR: It’s quite an age range
NR: Oh yes, yes. My mother used to sit up – I’ve known her sit up till twelve, two in the morning, cutting clothes down for one to fit the other. But she always sent us to school lovely and clean. We always used to wear white pinnies, and black stockings and high boots that buttoned up. We did it with a button-hook, they went up to your knees. But before went to school we had to…when I was old enough, we had to run errands for other people to get some pocket money and give it to my Ma, and then dinner-time, my job was, when I come home from school, I had to take my Dad’s dinner down to McMullen’s, tied up in one of those red and white spotted handkerchiefs. That was before I had my own dinner, then I had to rush back to school. Then at four o’clock in the afternoon, when we come home from school, we just had to help my mother, doing things that she wanted us to do.
JR: What sort of jobs did you do? What errands did you run, what kind of thing?
NP: Oh, neighbours across the road…
JR: Shopping?
NP: Shopping, yes. We used to get threepence, I used to get threepence. I used to have to give my mum that. And then my mum, she used to – beside bringing us up, she used to go across the road – there used to be a pub called the Oak, May Storey ran it then, and my mum used to go and help her, and then when May Storey retired my mum went to work for a pork shop at Old Cross called Hugmans – Peter would know it- and she worked there right up till she was eighty-two.
JR: She was well known…
NP: Yes, oh yes, my mum was. Yes, she worked there till she was eighty-two.
JR: She must have been a very busy woman.
NP: She was! My Dad died when he was fifty-seven, left her to bring us all up, that’s why she had to go out to work.
JR: And she had to cope with domestic side…
NP: Side of it, yes...
JR: And there was no electricity…
NP: No. We had gas, afterwards, a long, long while afterwards, when gas first came out, when they fixed the gas on
JR: That was after you went into the house…
NP: Oh yes, a long while after – oh no, we had candles, we had candles all around, mm. But we got along, we were happy. I mean, we never had any toys at Christmas, we used to hang our stockings up, and all we had in it was an apple, an orange, a few sweets, and something to wear. I never possessed a doll in my life, neither did my young sister. We always had something to wear for Christmas. My mother just couldn’t afford it. But we were happy. I mean, as children we had a hoop and a stick, a whip and a top, and, you know, we used to play hopscotch in the lane, and there was quite a few children in the four, six houses, and we all used to get together in the lane, and play the games skipping and all that sort of thing.
JR: Was it a busy road in those days?
NP: Oh no,no. No traffic was allowed through that lane when we lived there.
JR: When was it opened up to traffic?
NP: Oh, years after, yeah.
JR: You could only walk through there
NP: You could walk though there, you could walk right through there, and that house that stands in the lane, on the corner there, that was there then. And in between where that opening is now, down the lane, you know, on the right, just down the lane, by a bit of green, that used to be where the houses had their washing lines, all along there. , and that was our back entrances to the house, all along there, and that’s where we used to play.
JR: The house faced the Hertingfordbury Road, didn’t it?
NP: Pardon?
JR: Did the house face Hertingfordbury Road?
NP: Oh yes, they all did, and we all had the little gardens by the road, xxxxx chair, in the sun. We had the steps leading down, on to the path
JR: Was that a busy road to Hertingfordbury was?
NP: No no, it wasn’t in those days, no, very little traffic.
JR: It was actually the main road from Hertford to Hatfield wasn’t it…?
NP: That’s right, yes.
JR: What went along there, then, was it horse-drawn?
NP: Oh, horse and carts – oh there was a lot of those around when I was a child. Yes, horse and carts, and one or two cars, but no buses ever went along there, no. There used to be a big wall on the other side of the road, and there used to be allotments on the other side of that wall, no you could cross – there were cars, like, went along there, but I don’t think there was any heavy traffic went along there, it wasn’t like the present traffic, went along there.
JR: xxxxxx
NP: Oh, yes, mmm.
JR: Were those houses actually attached to the present row of houses there?
NP: Yes, those cottages were there
JR: Were they joined together?
NP: Yes, they was all joined together, except where the first one is there used to be an alleyway that led in to the house where Mrs. Whittaker lives - used to live, and then there was four big houses, and in the corner there was two
JR: Yes. You had one of the big houses?
NP: We had one of the big ones.
JR: That’s all good. I’m interested to know what life was actually like in that house.
NP: Oh, it was lovely! We used to sit - my dad taught us to play cards, and my dad used to have a mandolin, one of my sisters has got it at the moment, he used to play it beautifully, and on a Sunday morning, when we’d come back from Sunday School, he used to sit on the – we had one of those old-fashioned wooden settees then – playing, and we used to have a little sing-song, you know – of course we were never allowed out at night. Then Sunday evening we all used to gather in the sitting-room and we had one of those old-fashioned gramophones with a big horn, and my dad used to play his records, you know, put the old-fashioned records on, and he taught us to play cards, play crib, and rummy, and all that sort of thing. It was quite good, I enjoyed my childhood.
JR: Tell me again about Sunday, what did you do on Sunday?
NP: We used to get up in the morning, and we used to have our breakfast, we used to help my mum wash up. Saturday nights when we’d had our bath, she used to curl our hair up in rags, ready for going to Sunday School Sunday morning, and then she used to get us ready, and off we used to go to Sunday School, my dad used to give us a penny, that was for collection. And then we used to come home, and we used to have to change, take our best clothes off, and put the others on, and then we spent the rest of the day, if we didn’t go to Sunday School in the afternoon or chess at night - we weren’t allowed out.
JR: But if you were going back to Sunday School or chess would you have had to change back into your good clothes, or did you not get changed back into your…?
NP: We had to change when we came back in the afternoon. We had our dinner, and we put a pinny on, like, and then take the pinny off, and my mum used to get us washed again, and off we used to go again, to Church, Sunday school, yes. But we enjoyed it, I mean I think we were better off in those days than what the children are today, because we had to make our own…sport, like, not like the children today. I mean, no telly, no wireless, or nothing we didn’t have…
JR: Did you ever have any birthday parties there?
NP: No, no, we didn’t, no. My mother just couldn’t afford it, not to bring all of us up…
JR: What about bath night? Was that a big event?
NP: Saturday night. Yes, Saturday night was our bath night. The youngest ones’ bath night was Saturday night, and the bigger ones used to have them… when we were small, until we – oh until I was about seven, I was in bed every night seven o’clock. My mother was always very strict about bedtimes, yes, yes seven o’clock we was always in bed. Even when I was engaged to be married I always had to be in by half-past ten, and if I wasn’t my mother was at the gate waiting for us. She did that with all of us. Very strict about time.
JR: When you had – to go back to bath night, when you had this bath on Saturdays, did all the water have to be scooped out of the boiler?
NP: Yes, from the fire to the bath, yes, and then hotted up for the next xxx. My young sister and I were the two that used to bath on a Saturday night, the two youngest, ready for Sunday School, like. Mother used to send the boys into the front room, you know, let them play in there, because we had a door, there, that led into the hall, into the front room, so that they couldn’t come into the kitchen while we were having a bath. Yes… we quite enjoyed it.
JR: Hard work for your mother, wasn’t it…?
NP: Oh yes, she did work hard. But she lived till she was 84! Yes, she did…
JR: And washing day, that was equally…?
NP: Oh, that was Monday – all day Monday was spent washing. Washing Monday, and then until we moved up here – my mum had one of the first of these houses up here, at the top of the hill, number 42 I think it was – but going back to Hertingfordbury Road, on a Monday, when my older sisters and brothers came home from school they used to, if the washing was dry, one had to do the folding, and the other one, when it was time, my mother used to mangle before she ironed. It used to be taken down into the cellar in a big basket to the mangle. One of the boys had to turn the mangle, while one of the girls put the washing through the mangle and then folded it back up into the basket, then every Tuesday afternoon my mum used to spend ironing. Then when we were older we used to have to share the work with the older ones. When we came up here we had to.
JR: When did you come up here to Sele Road then?
NP: Oh I must – I was about – I’d started work
JR: Oh, so you were…
NP: I’d started work, I must have been about – it was after my dad died, because I was 14 in the November, and I started work after Christmas, and my dad died on the 31st of January that same year, so my other sister, like, was still at school. And I was working when we came up here, I must have been about 16 I should imagine, when we first moved up here. And then my brother was taken in to hospital, and they put him in a room where we could walk down the garden and wave to him, and then when he died, it upset my mother so much to look at that window, that they let her come round and we lived down at number 19. We moved down to number 19.
JR: What did he die of, xxxx a long time?
NP: Well, no he had something the matter with himself down below, and he had an operation and it didn’t work. He was only in there ten days and then he died. He was only thirty-four. And then we moved down there, and erm… getting back to the school days, Miss Hornby taught us when I went to school when I was five, then I moved up into Miss…
JR: Can I just interrupt you to say – you were actually born in 1914, weren’t you? Right at the beginning of the first world war
NP: The world war, yes
JR: You would have gone to St. Andrew’s School in, what, 1919?
NP: Yes, I was five.
JR: So your first teacher was Miss Hornby?
NP: Hornby, and then we had Miss Rowe, and then we moved up and I had Miss Smith, she came from St. Albans, and then I had Miss Turnbull, then I had Miss Rutter, oh she was a devil she was. Yes, but erm…
JR: Who was your favourite?
NP: Well, I liked Miss Smith and Miss Hornby. All the children loved Miss Hornby. She was a lovely teacher, so was Miss Smith, they all liked Miss Smith.
JR: Did she come back to be Head later on?
NP: Yes, I think she did, yes. Oh, she was nice. But I mean – we did lessons all the time. I mean, we never had PE or anything like that. We was at lessons and then we had play, and back in school to do lessons until dinner-time, and home for half an hour for dinner, because, I mean, it was only up the road, so we could come home. And then school till half past four, we used to stay at school, and then back home. The only sport we had was netball, in the playground, and then once a week we used to go down the field and play schholball, or rounders, or something like that, but that’s the only two sports we had, and then when it was Mayday our mums used to come down into the playground and we used to dance round the maypole, we had a maypole, and then we had the rest of the day off. And then when it was All Saints day we went to church. Every All Saints day we went down to St.Andrew’s church, and then we had the rest of the day off. And we only had a fortnight off, a fortnight for summer holidays, and only a day off on Whit Monday, Good Friday and Easter Monday, we just had those two days off, but the rest of it was taken up in lessons, and Friday mornings we used to have the Vicar come, and we used to have a Scripture lesson, we used to assemble in one room, all the bigger classes, and he used to be there an hour and take a Scripture lesson…
JR: Was that the Reverend Gardner?
NP: Yes, yeah, mmm. Nat we used to call him.
JR: Did you call him Natty?
NP: Yes. You know, he used to come every Friday morning for a Scripture lesson. And we had one afternoon a week – we had erm…the boys used to go down to St, Nicholas Hall, we had that, the girls went down , we went down on a Tuesday morning, we had a cookery lesson, and the boys had woodwork…
JR: Where was that at, St. Nicholas Hall?
NP: Yes, and we used to go down in the little room, not in the main hall, there used to be a little room right the way down, and we used to have that for our cookery lesson, and the boys used to go down there for their woodwork on their day. And erm…
JR: Did the teachers from St. Andrew’s school go with you?
NP: Oh yes, yes. We went in a group, and we brought home what we made, like, they let us bring home what we made, and erm, then erm… apart from that, erm, I mean, it was all lessons.
JR: Did the boys have any chance to play football? The girls were playing netball.
NP: Netball, yes. They had football. They used to go down the field, yes. But we had a separate line in the play… We had a great big playground, and ours was concrete and the boys’ was asphalt. And there was a line, right across the middle. And the boys had to keep down that end, and the girls this end. They weren’t allowed – if the teachers saw anybody mix, the boys go on our line or we went on their line, we were sent in the school and given a lesson. And erm… it was pretty good. And I mean, we had a bell in the morning at nine o’clock, teachers used to ring and we all used to have to line up and march into our separate classes and say a prayer before we sat down in there, but erm… yes, it was all lessons and that’s the only games we played. But we enjoyed it. Our gymslips, when we played netball, because I mean none of us could possess a gymslip and blouse, they used to borrow from Christ’s Hospital, and then they used to be sent back. Yes erm ( Nora considers what to say next) But when we got into the big class, in Miss Rutter’s class, she was very, very strict. I remember when we had a reading lesson, we used to sit – we was a mixed school, like, and we used to sit two in a desk, and you used to get your reading books out from under your locker, like, and she had eyes like a hawk, and she told you where you’d got to start, and she used to pick on somebody – “Stand up, you begin.” And she used to keep her eyes roving round the room, and if she saw nobody paying attention she used to say “Finish – you start” and of course he didn’t know where to start. He would go up and have the ruler across his knuckles, or stood up in the corner. Yes, yes, she was very very strict. Because I was second to top in the school when I left. The only thing I really wasn’t good at was drawing. We had a drawing lesson, you know. Cecil(y) Bilton, the boy that – he’s died now – but he lived down in one of the cottages down Hertingfordbury Road, we all went to school with all the Biltons, and he came top of the school when we all left, and I was second – I was the top girl in the school… ( Pause) And then we had – when we was at school we…when we was in Miss Turnbull’s class, she used to have a big cupboard and one – we used to call them monitors – she chose one each week, and you had to lay the books out on the desks ready to start the lesson, keep the cupboard tidy, pack them all back when it was all finished at the end of the day, and keep it tidy. And there used to be a big notice on – something about “everything should be in its place” or something like that – “kept in its place” or some such…
JR: “A place for everything and everything in its place”
NP: “Everything in its place”, yes…and then we had a needlework class, once a week. Needlework and knitting it was, and Miss Smith used to take that, but because I was left-handed I wasn’t allowed to do needlework, and I used to have to sit and knit all the socks. (Laughs)
JR: I bet that was boring though
NP: Oh, it was boring, I used to hate it, but erm…of course I mean she used to start this end and I wanted to start this end, and she got fed up with me and she said “Oh I think I’ll put you on knitting” and she said “ you can knit the socks.” That was when the boys used to go down their woodwork class, we had our knitting and needlework class. Yes…it was quite good, I enjoyed it.
JR: I think we’re nearly at the end of this half – this side of the tape, so I’ll switch it off I think now and then we’ll start again in a minute and perhaps you’ll tell me the names of some of your classmates, who were in the class with you.
NP: Yes, mmm. END OF SIDE ONE
Side 2
JR: who was in the class?
NP: to start with the children next door went to the school, Annie, Rose and William Wareham and there was Tommy, Bessie and Dolly Thompson they were the next ones Round the corner was Peter Walker and Evelyn Walls, she lived across the road, still lives down Hertingfordbury.
JR: Yes, I know!
NP: Lesley Bilton, Elizabeth Foster, I can’t remember half of the…
JR: It doesn’t matter ……..and people on the other side?
NP: Only Walls.
JR: Was she living on the other side then?
NP: I think she was the only one I knew that lived along there and her brother, can't think of his name. Evelyn and her brother and there was Philip Turnball he came to our school - he’s a bishop now isn’t he?
JR: No! I know him. He's not actually a bishop but he'd be quite flattered to hear you say that I think.
NP: I saw him the last time he came to see Peter (Ruffles).
JR: In fact Peter went down to see him last week
NP: Did he?
JR: He is now in a nursing home
NP: Is he? Oh…
JR: But he’s in quite good shape
NP: Is he? Of course, he must be getting on now, mustn’t he?
JR: Yes, I think he’s – I’m not sure, I think he’s 80 or 81
NP: yes, because I’m 80 this year, and I knew he wasn’t much older than me
JR: He may be 81. He’s living on the South Coast
NP: Oh… Then there was Peter’s younger brother… erm…what was his name? Peter Ruffles’ brother…
JR: Oh, erm… was it Thomas?
NP: Thomas, yes Thomas, and erm, oh, a lot of them, they’ve either died or moved away and I’ve forgotten all their names. Oh, there’s Ada Green, and her brother Ernie, Ernie Race his name is, and Ada. (Long pause while Nora tries to remember) I said Rene Whittaker didn’t I?
JR: These people were mostly neighbours weren’t they?
NP: No, they come – well, the first lot was neighbours, but the others come and lived in the yard down St Andrew’s Street called Pavitts Yard. Oh, there’s Doris Hipkins she lived down that yard, and the Livings, Daisy and Doris Livings, but I think they’ve all passed away now. And, then there was another one, I can’t think of her name, she was supposed to have come to the meetings, but I can’t think of her name. Oh, there was Dulcie Platt, from West Street, erm… then there was Joan Goodland, who was manageress of Sketchleys, she was there, and the other lady who was there, I don’t know her name. There was Georgie Thompson, and that’s about all the boys I can remember. I’ve forgotten all the other names…
JR: You’ve remembered a lot though
NP: Yes, quite a few…
JR: What about things like shopping? I mean, there was quite a number of shops…
NP: Oh yes, oh yes along Hertingfordbury Road we had the school, then there was the bungalow where Mrs Vines lived, then there was two houses that belonged to McMullen’s, then there was the yard, with the houses still at the back there at the moment, and at that front bit there was the fried fish and chip shop, because I know when my hubby and I were courting we used to call in there at night and have fish and chips going along in a newspaper. And then there was a wireless shop, then there was two more little cottages, then there was a little clothes shop, and then there was a grocery shop, then there was a yard, with two houses up the top, and the milkman at the corner, Pateman’s milk
JR: Yes, it was a dairy, wasn’t it?
NP: Yes, and then there was a paper shop, and then Wacketts the cycle shop, and then I think there was another big house next to it, then there was another sweet shop, then there was Pavitts - what we called Pavitts yard, where Mrs. Livings and all them lived, right the way down the bottom, then the corner shop was Hattam’s they had a cake shop, then there was the pub, then there was another house, then the butcher’s, the big butcher’s…
JR: Scales’ was it?
NP: Scales, the butcher’s. Then there was the big house, that belonged to Scales the builder. Oh, there was Scales’s yard, in between the pub and the erm… where the pub was, and then there was Wackett’s), his cycles, he mended cycles and all that, and then there was erm…Scales’s big yard, and his house that he had, and then there was all those other houses, then the yard before you got to the school. Because I remember Peter’s father, Philip, he used to – when he was late for school he used to run down the lane and get in the back way, he used to climb over the fence, although there was a big ditch there, and he used to come in the back way – Peter’d tell you that. And erm… then there was the butcher’s, and then a big house, and then there was the alleyway, and then there was the church.
JR: It’s amazing to me, as a relative newcomer, that all those buildings were squashed into that tiny little…
NP: Yes, yes. I mean, they weren’t very big, but they were there. I mean, the little clothes shop was ever such a tiny little shop, and so was the little grocery shop, but it was nice going in because everybody was so friendly, you know, and they were very polite, and you got what you sort of wanted, sort of thing over the counter; and what my mum used to do, she used to send us down there, and he used to put everything down on a bill, and then my mum used to pay at the end of the week, like, that’s what a lot of people used to do, he used to sort of give them credit. Same as the butcher’s. xxxxx Church was St. Nicholas Hall. And then there was another shop, and then there was a big yard, and there was a lot of houses each side down there, and all the yard was all cobblestones, and that was where the Fosters and the Ansells used to live down there…
JR: Was that where you go in to Hertford to the car park?
NP: The car park, yes, yes. That was a big yard, and then erm, the rest of it was sort of all shops, along…
JR: So that you, you didn’t have to go very far into the town…
NP: No, ‘cause we could just go down the road, you know, we never used to go into the town. And on Bull Plain, there used to be, on the right-hand side, before you get to the Museum, there used to be a great big open space, and we used to have our market down there, and there used to be all shops down there.
JR: On Bull Plain.
NP: On Bull Plain, yes. There used to be a food store at the top, so I always remember I used to have to go there on a Saturday and get my mum’s groceries, greengroceries from there on a Saturday and there used to be big queues, and then up where the Bircherley Court flats and all that was, that was a great big open space, and on a Saturday we used to have a big market there, and they used to sort of – you used to bid for something, say like bananas, he used to hold up a great big bunch, and he used to say, well “Who’ll give me so-and-so for these bananas” and that’s the way you used to buy your fruit. And then there used to be a shop this side of it called the “Welcome”. That was a sweet shop. And then there was a dairy, the Co-op had a dairy next to it, it used to be quite a nice shop, and where my brother’s – my brother’s wife the Mills family lived, was on the opposite side of the road. She had a great big second-hand shop and they lived above the shop, and above the shop she brought up (pause while Nora calculates) six children, she brought up above that shop.
But erm…there used to be erm…up where the erm… where that new jewellery shop is at Maidenhead Street, and the Co-op have got their shop, you know there’s that opening, well my sister’s husband lived down there, there used to be all houses down there, and it used to be called The Green. Yes, my sister’s husband lived down there, and there used to be, oh, a dozen houses down there, on the other side. And they’d only got a little narrow path, no traffic could get down there, ‘cause it was just a little narrow road, like. And that’s where my sister’s husband lived, my brother-in-law lived down there.
And erm… you know Old Cross, where that hairdresser’s is now, the Co-op had a butcher’s, then there used to be that opening that’s still there, and where the furniture shop is now used to be a big pub. My daughter’s friend’s mother owned it, a big pub there called the Ship. And then further down was the antique shop, then there used to be Sadler’s the coal merchant, then on the corner, opposite where the cycle shop is used to be a big house, and there used to be another pub there. It was all pubs. It was about - one, two, three… four pubs in Maidenhead Street, in the olden days. One on the corner of Honey Lane, there used to be, and one called the Diamond at the bottom, just further up; it was all pubs. There were loads of pubs. (Pause while Nora ruminates.)
JR: I was listening to something a lady had recorded recently and she was sure, and she was telling us that erm – Pateman’s the dairy that you mentioned
NP: Yes
JR: Did have a herd of cows
NP: That’s right
JR: Which they drove from Wareham’s Lane
NP: Wareham’s Lane – oh yes, yes. They used to keep them down Wareham’s Lane. And he used to have two big iron gates, and when we were kids he used to let us go and have a look at them, you know, because we used to go down there, we used to go and fetch our milk from there. He had up the side a little door…
JR: This was a shop?
NP: Yes, he had a shop at the front, but if you wanted any milk when he was shut you went up to a little side door at the side, and we used to buy all our milk from him
JR: So where did he actually do his milking?
NP: Down Wareham’s Lane, he had a place down there
JR: Then why did he bring the cows up to… (both talk at once) seems strange doesn’t it?
NP: I don’t know – he couldn’t milk them at the shop because there was two houses up next to his up there. ‘cause the O’Smotherleys – oh, they were another family that went to St. Andrew’s, the O’Smotherleys, and Hayden’s, that lived in the house this side, the artist’s daughter – well, both daughters, they came to our school, St. Andrew’s school, they was another family…
JR: another family, were they?
NP: No…
JR: Wait a minute, I’m getting mixed up now, were they… xxxx
NP: There was two daughters and a boy they had…erm…
JR: I’m getting mixed up, yes
NP: Dorothy, she lives down the Folly. I don’t know her married name
JR: But she was Dorothy Hayden
NP: Dorothy Hayden, mmm. But her eldest sister used to come to our school, ‘cause I know we got friends and we used to all go about together, and erm…that’s where we used to have to go and get our milk, knock on the door, and take your jug or your can or whatever you’d got and get a pint or two pints of milk, and she used to pour it out of a bucket into your jug or your can…
JR: So were there any milk deliveries in those days or not, when you’re talking about…?
NP: Oh they had a horse and cart, but erm…I think they did do deliveries, ‘cause I know he finished with ‘cause I know his son lives up – not Sele Farm, up erm – Thieves Lane. He took over when his Dad died and he used to deliver. Georgie.
JR: Did they have to milk in bottles or did you still go out…
NP: We used to go out with a can, and we used to have a cap on the can, and fill it up, like, but he did eventually come to bottles, he did, he came to bottling. He was an only child so he took over father-son business when his Dad died, but he was quite good. Then there was the Walkers, Dave, his Mum moved to across the road there… so they pulled all the houses down. Shame really, I suppose they couldn’t be bothered to modernise them because they were so big, it was simply – simpler to pull them down.
JR: Could they have stayed up, and Cross Lane still be as wide as it is now? Or did they mean to widen it, is that where the problems…
NP: No,no, it was erm…they couldn’t widen it, it was as wide as it is now, because where that bit of green is stood all our houses
JR: They would have got completely on that piece of green
NP: Ground, yes
JR: Oh. It must have been because they were getting dilapidated
NP: I suppose so, yes, mmm. Yes. Well there was no mod cons there you see, it would have cost them thousands…
JR: Still, nowadays they probably would have…
NP: They would have done, yes, they would have done, yes, mmm.
JR: The Rectory, St. Andrew’s Rectory, that’s there now…
NP: That’s got cellars, I’ve been down there
JR: They’ve lost a lot of garden, haven’t they?
NP: Yes, when they widened the road they widened it that side. Yes, yes. ‘Cause I know when Mr. Gardner lived there we used to go there quite a lot when we were kids. He used to have so many of us there, at a time you know
JR: What were you doing there?
NP: Well he used to have a lesson, you know, have a little sort of Scripture lesson, or have a little meeting, and he took us down the cellars, he’d got two cellars underneath that house, I’ve been all over that house.
JR: Just to see them or…
NP: Yes
JR: You didn’t have any lessons down there
NP: (laughs) Oh no,no – no he just, you know, just to explore, and let us see what the house was like.
JR: So what did he keep in his cellars then?
NP: Well, all his things he didn’t need, you know, he used to stack down there, yes, yes…
JR: Because most people who had cellars in those days used to keep their coal in them, didn’t they? It often went down a chute, like you said
NP: Yes, yes, the coal hole, yes
JR: A lot of the boilers and coppers were actually down there as well
NP: Yes, coppers and boilers and mangles, yes. It was ever so dark down there though, you know. (laughs) The only light you got was from the big windows, and the little window in the other copper. It was all right during the day in the summer time.
JR: The rooms upstairs…
NP: Oh they were quite big
JR: Were they heated by coal fires?
NP: No, we never had no fireplaces, no nothing. We had no heating at all. In the winter we used to erm, have a hot brick wrapped in a blanket in our bed, to warm it up before we went to bed, but we never had no erm…all we had was a little fire - fireplace in what we called the front room then
JR: That had a fire in…
NP: That had a fire. But we never had no other heating. I mean, the kitchen was the warmest place, with the kitchen range, you know, and we always used to sit in there in the evenings. I mean as for food – as I say, we only had cake once a week, and that was on a Sunday, and then we only had one, one each. And chicken was a luxury for Christmas, we never had it during the – during the year. I mean, my mother used to – I mean she was a beautiful cook, I mean she used to make lovely stews, and rabbit pies, and spotted dicks and suet puddings we had, I mean we never went hungry.
JR: All those things are quite filling aren’t they?
NP: Yes, yes. And rice pudding – everything she made. She made her own bread and everything. But the only thing, being a Yorkshire woman, when she made a Yorkshire, you had the Yorkshire first, and then your dinner after.
JR: And quite often you had the Yorkshire for pudding as well.
NP: Yes. My mother used to like it cold with butter on it. Yes, she used to love it like that. (pause) I mean, my mother came from Hull, some of my aunties and my relations still live up there. My dad came from Darlington, and I don’t know – I couldn’t tell you how they met, but I know that my dad was out of work, my mum you know, afterwards told us. And that’s how he came to work there, my uncle got him down here and got them a house in Hartham Lane, and that’s how we came to be in Hertford..
JR: But anyway your …
NP: We was all born in Hertford
JR: Yes, but your parents weren’t from there
NP: No, no… (long pause)
JR: What of your - you have told me a little bit about what you brothers and sisters did for their livings, if you like, but how many of your brothers and sisters are still alive?
NP: I’ve only got two sisters, that’s all that’s left in the family…the three youngest now. They’ve all died.
JR: Have they got the – did they all have children apart from Rose who didn’t get married?
NP: My sister Mabel never had a family. Her husband had TB, so he died when he was quite a young fellow, but she never remarried
JR: What was her surname?
NP: Gull
JR: Gull…
NP: Gull, Mabel Gurrell, and erm…of course he came from Hoddesdon – he contracted TB and he was in hospital in Watford for a long long while, and that was where he died, but she never did remarry. And then of course Rosie, she never ever, she never had a boyfriend, she used to hate men I don’t know why and she remained a spinster, but my eldest brother had four daughters and a son; my brother Bill, he had – his first two were twins, ‘cause my mother brought one – besides having ten of us my mother brought one of his twins up.
JR: Really?
NP: Charlie, yes, he’s a taxi driver. And erm… she – the trouble was, to cut a long story short, she was married and divorced, then she met my brother, she was about ten years older than my brother, and they had twins, and she couldn’t cope. So she kept the daughter, and when the boy was a month old my mum took him, and she adopted him; she had him from a month old. He still calls us brother and sister, you know. He lives at Sele Farm. Yeah, and he had five. My brother Albert the butcher, he only had the one, Terry Crane, I don’t know whether - he works at McMullen’s, lives in Port Vale, I don’t know whether you know him, do you?
JR: No
NP: Terry. He had the one. My brother Fred, he was the one that died, and my brother Sid, he only had the one daughter. His wife lives at Sele Farm – oh, she’s a lovely person, but she lives on half a lung. Mmm, she had TB. She’s ever so sweet. And erm, my sister Mabel never had any, and Rosie wasn’t married, my sister Win, the one that lives at St. Albans, her little boy died when he was four days old, and she wouldn’t have any more, and then I had two, a boy and a girl. And our daughter lives just round the corner. I’ve got three grandsons and one great- granddaughter
JR: There are no more really big families then?
NP: No, they didn’t – none of them had big families, no. They didn’t go – well they‘ve got all these – I mean on the pill now aren’t they, and all that sort of thing
JR: Because that wasn’t – there was nothing in your mother’s day… (both speak at once)
NP: No, it was a thing, wasn’t it, no, they just had to grin and bear it.
JR: I suppose that once they were past child-bearing age that was when they knew they wouldn’t have any more, but they couldn’t be certain
NP: No, they couldn’t, no, no. I mean they – didn’t matter whoever you’d speak to they all had rather large families in those days.
JR: Or if they didn’t they thought there was something wrong
NP: (laughs) Something wrong, yes
JR: But that – I think you mentioned that some of your family had or died of TB…
NP: Not our side of the family (confused passage with both speaking) what I mean is, how many contracted it – my brother met her while he was in the army, she came from the Midlands, and her Dad had TB, and he used to sleep in a tent in the garden, he wasn’t allowed in the house, and they reckoned that when she was born, it seemed – contracted it from him, because she was an only child.
JR: It was a real scourge wasn’t it…
NP: Oh yes, mmm
JR: It was the dreaded thing
NP: Oh it was, yes. Yes, I mean she went into a big hospital in St. Albans, the one near the big memorial right up the top. And I always remember – quite a few years ago, but I was old enough to go and see and understand, and she’d got a scar from there right round to the middle of her back, where she’d had her lungs taken out. We never thought she’d live to the age she is today. No. but she’s wonderful. I mean, you have to listen to her carefully to hear what she’s talking about, you know, because she gets so out of breath, and she can’t venture out, not in the cold weather, she daren’t. The doctor looks after her and goes up to her every time she calls. Sometimes it’s two or three times a week he has to go and see her, but she lives all on her own. She’s got a daughter, but she lives at Stansted, but the neighbours are very good, and my sister lives just round the corner to her, so…
JR: Where’s this?
NP: Up Sele farm. She lives in erm…What’s the Hutton Close, and she lives in…
JR: Farm Close?
NP: Farm Close, down by the shops. We go and see her once a week, you know, have a cup of coffee with her
JR: That’s nice
NP: So she’s not lonely. Her daughter’s ever so good to her. She goes up weekends, and she has a home help, and the nurse goes in, and she’s got all the mod cons that she can have, you know, like everything in the bathroom she needs, and everything in the house she needs. I mean she’s only got to phone, if we can’t go, if it’s in the middle of the night, just phone if she wants anybody, because we can get there quicker than what her daughter can. But she’s always in and out of hospital – she’s nice
JR: well she’s been fortunate in one way – unfortunate to start with, but fortunate in that she’s managed to keep going…(Nora speaks at the same time to agree) Her quality of life hasn’t been too bad
NP: No. She can’t do her own work…
JR: But she could do, couldn’t she, when she was younger
NP: Oh yes, she’s done it up till…
JR: What age then?
NP: Oh, since my brother died. My brother died two years ago, and up till then – like, he used to help her when he could, until he got ill himself, and he couldn’t, and then she had a home help, she’s still got her, she’s good to her, and she’s got a fellow that goes and does all her garden, and she don’t want to move out of her house, you know. So erm…
JR: Right, thank you.