Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Tomlin, Jackie and Ron (O1994.23) |
| Interviewee | Peggy Hardwick (nee Tomlin) (PH); Jackie (nee Fisher) Tomlin (JT |
| Interviewer | Eve Sangster (ES) |
| Date | 07/09/1994 |
| Transcriber by | Marilyn Taylor (from previous notes by unknown) |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O 1994.23
Interviewees: Peggy Hardwick (nee Tomlin) (PH); Jackie (nee Fisher) Tomlin (JT); Ron Tomlin (RT)
Date: 7th September, 1994
Venue: Uplyme, Balfour Street
Interviewer: Eve Sangster (ES)
Transcriber: Marilyn Taylor (from previous notes by unknown)
Typed by: Marilyn Taylor
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
Transcribers Note: Jackie and Ron lived at 76, North Road. Jack (born 1911 and now in Cumbria), Peggy (born 22.9.1912), Ron (born 31.5.1914) and absent brother Phil were born at 65, Cromwell Road, Hertford. They often talk over one another so exact transcription is very difficult
ES: Wednesday 7th September 1994 I am at Uplyme, Balfour Street. At the home of Bill and Peggy Hardwicke. Peggy and Ron who is also here with his wife Jackie and an absent brother Phil they are all siblings. Brothers and sisters., and there is another brother John living…..
PH: in Cumbria
ES: Can we start with you Peggy, who is the oldest?
PH: Jack in Cumbria
ES: Right how old is he?
Unclear conversation about his age
ES: When were you born Peggy?
PH: 1912 the actual date is September 22nd
ES: and what about you Ron?
RT: I was born on 31st May 1914
ES: and where were you born?
RT: 65 Cromwell Road
Unclear conversation seems to be about how to pronounce Hertford
PH: I thought we were being lazy so I looked it up in my Oxford Dictionary and its says “pronounced harford” silly isn’t it cause it’s a Hart
ES: Peter said that the family home was 76 North Road
RT: No that’s me and Jackie’s house. Me and Jackie live there.
ES: Oh I see, were your parents Hertford people?
RT: No Dad was Hampshire/Surrey sort of spread around; mother was Kent
Transcribers Note: 1911 census says father Joseph Gilbert Tomlin was born in Ascot, Berkshire in 1881 and mother Louisa Mary was born in Charing Kent. They were then at 65 Cromwell Road and had been married under 1 year having married in Kent. Joseph had served in the Royal Navy and then the RAF during WW1.
ES: Do you know when they came to Hertford then?
RT: 1910
ES: They came in 1910
RT: Dad had been an estate carpenter until he came to Hertford and he took a job at Morris’s the furnishers. Carpenter, cabinet maker doing what have you.
Transcribers Note: he seems to have worked at Anningsley Park, Chertsey
PH: Could he make coffins?
RT: Well no he didn’t then Mum came along and they were married and came to Cromwell Road and as a new house in 1910.
PH: I think it was the first house that was made in that road wasn’t it?
RT: 2nd actually in that one! Laundry at the end of the road.
ES: And what were the occupations of your grandparents?
RT: Mothers father was in farming but not in any big way he was a farm labourer.
PH: Dad’s father was a gardener at where? He was a judge at was it the horticultural show or
ES: When you say at Ware……..
RT: No she don’t mean Ware here…..she was questioning me I think
ES: Oh, I see, right
RT: He was in Surrey and Hampshire
Transcribers note: Mr Joseph Tomlin snr. Their grandfather was a gardener at Anninsgley Park.
Unclear conversation between brother and sister about their grandfather and who should answer!
RT: I can’t say too much about that I don’t know.
PH: I only vaguely remember him.
ES: No alright. It is possible we might have to do this again. I mean I might think of more questions when I know more about you I shall know what to ask. I don’t know anything! So where did you go to school?
RT: I went to Cowper School, well yes All Saints Infants school then I went to Cowper School and I left there at 14, and started a seven year apprenticeship at Stephen Austin's, the printers in Fore Street. I also joined the Territorial Army when I was 14 as a band boy. Went to camp with them that year 1928 went back to school, afterwards until I started when I was in my apprenticeship.
ES: and obviously you joined up when you were conscripted in the second world war.
RT: That’s right yes in the territorials so I was called up on the first day I was working on the Friday and the bugler, stood on the War Memorial and played the Regimental Call and the Fall-In. Then I didn’t do any more work for three years. Just a 6-month break.
Tape seems to stop and restart
ES: Where did you go to school Peggy?
PH: All Saints Infants School when I was about 8 because I was ill.
ES: Which building was that in?
PH: That’s now now a school isn’t it, its opposite St Johns Hall
ES: Abel Smiths
PH: Is that what it’s called?
RT: There isn’t a school there now, well it is, it’s built up, the school we went to was down the bottom right opposite the entrance to the Grammar school. You know the old Grammar school?
ES: Yes yes
RT: Well that building is not there now, it’s all built up
Transcribers Note: All saints Infants is now Abel Smith JMI but Abel Smith was originally in the kindergarten building and was a girls school
Ron and Peggy have discussion about the school, unclear
ES: Anyway
PH: I went from All Saints Girls school on to Ware Grammar School. I left when I was 17.
ES: Did you work when you left school?
PH: I went to work at Stephen Austin, as a costing and then a wages clerk.
RT: Dad died and it was 1929 you started
ES: So were you on the administrative side of Stephen Austin or where you actually printing?
RT: Well we weren’t printers, there were so many trades in the printing industry I was connected with the keyboards and lining it up and setting the metal into linotype and I finished up as overseer until I retired in 1979.
ES: So how did you meet Jackie? Where did you meet her?
RT: She joined the tennis club Grove Lawn Tennis Club (in Mangrove Road). We were members and I had known Jackie for many years before we joined up. I remember her with ************ now. ****************** that was 28 years ago.
ES: What about you Peggy? Where did you meet Bill?
PH: Rather funny really, mother and I were watching the television play and there was a bang on the door. She said you go and I said no you go cause she was ******** and when I went to the door there was a chap from my office and Bill they said I came to ask you out for a drink So I went out for a drink and Bill kept coming to see me regularly, Bill was in print.
ES: How old were you?
PH: 39. My mother was old and I didn’t fancy settling down, had a lot of boyfriends but…
ES: I suppose you in a sense there wasn’t quite the pressure I mean you had got your brothers I expect you had a very good social life.
PH: Didn’t have much time I worked 20 miles away *******
ES: Yes where did you work, where were you working then?
PH: At ************* Station *************
Transcribers Note this is unclear but must be the War Office.
RT: You haven’t mentioned you were in the Civil Service
ES: No how did you come to be in the Civil Srevice
PH: Not allowed to say, turn that off and I can tell you. It’s not a personal interest it’s just…
PH: My boss was a conscientious objector he said if there had been no TA fellows to help fill the Army we would not have been at war with the Germans. Having got three brothers in the Territorials I walked out.
ES: Out of principle, and you went to the War Office?
PH: I went 6 months to motor licences with the Naval Air Corps and then went in to the Civil Service, but you couldn’t go into the Civil Service then till about 1947 I think it was when thousands took it. So I was temporary till then.
ES: So you were going up to London were you during the blitz?
PH: Their office was then where the fire station is in a building owned by, Eddie Williams. Local people owned those buildings
ES: Where about was that
PH: Near the fire station,
ES: In London Road?
PH: Yes It was part of the old barracks and then it was 47 I think it was. I went to Enfield then I was posted to Whetstone north London where I stayed until I retired..One thing my mother was very old then and another thing I thought working was bad so I stayed until 1967 when I was about what 55 then I think, this is the sort of thing you forget over time..
ES: We never know what we want till we want it. Also surprising how interesting it is. But Peter was saying that you lived at Old Cross.
PH: We did yes we went to 25 Old Cross
ES: 25 he said something about the Daily Mail I couldn’t really read his writing.
PH: That was a competition I suppose in the Daily Mail I don’t really know, I don’t remember. I won something
ES: Oh well he has got notoriously bad writing!
PH: I think it was The Mercury. Yes it was some competition or something. I had to go up to town and I didn’t drink in those days they was so surprised because it was all free for us you see.
ES: That was next to Pharoah's sweet shop. What was the town like in those days. I know it’s not that long ago but
PH: I didn’t see that much of it apart from the mad dog early mornings when we went to get our car which we kept in Barber's Yard, I used to put the car and mother would save the meat for me to throw because if not the dog used to run out of the door you see.
ES: To placate it, was that security?
PH: Barbers big yard yes it was a half breed Alsatian or something., I have still got the scars, so I started out, one morning the dog got out and knocked a man off his bike ************ after that. ***********
RT: In those days it was considerably quieter in Hertford. Never had a window bashed in or anything like that. Walking was fine you could in those days.
PH: Everybody knew each other then I think every other person you used to meet everyone you knew in those days now you are lucky if it’s one in five or one in ten.
RT: ************
ES: Well of course it still really is a tiny place, its only 26,000 isn’t it. You lived and worked in the town then.
PH: Different things were though we used to do things to enjoy.
RT: You could in those days walk across the fields
PH: Myra Fowler and her concerts she had along Ware Road before the houses were built in a place enclosed by hawthorn bushes. She did concerts in there you wouldn’t do that these days
ES: Where was that then?
PH: On the way to halfway house, we call it that, it’s where Claude had a house built, that was it there was like an alley.
RT: Up Ware Road there were no houses when we were kids do you remember the big red brick building that was the workhouse when we were young then it was Kings Mead School for Retarded Children, now it’s the police headquarters
ES: Yes
RT: Kings Mead School when it was demolished the clock went in to All Saints Church. That was our playground cause they have built on that now ************** entertainment was very sparse. I remember Mum walking and she had got bad legs from where we were right up to Pearsons with the pram and kids hanging on to an 'open day' up there. Brickendonbury A punt on the lake and ice cream, and then the long walk home again. I reckon the drive must be a mile long and another thing we used to do just down the bottom here (Port Vale) they used to have Gordon somebody’s concert parties in the garden with a wall round it they had a marquee and they had a show came in to Hertford once a year I suppose. **********
ES: Yes somebody else mentioned it who was it
RT: Pianist settled in Hertford lived in Queens Road he was one of the party (Billy Evans)
Talking over on another again
ES: Was this an annual concert party that came?
RT: Most you had to do yourself. Entertainment all the time Then of course we had the cinema that was nice on a Saturday afternoon have we got…………..
PH: Mrs. Bridle Lake she had a beautiful voice and she used to sing in the interval. Mr. Carpenter's Castle Cinema of course privately owned.
ES: Did she play anything?
PH: No she sung
RT: ************************ tuppence on a Saturdav afternoon Mr. Graves was the commissionaire. He had every key in his fist you know oh dear you used to hear him coming along. The like an explosion Orchestra wise Mr Farrow, Pecker Farrow, the drummer ************ Mrs Duff on the cello she was always drunk she would stagger up the aisle in the interval and Mr. Carpenter playing clarinet.
ES: Was that the Mr Carpenter that owned it?
RT: No no no it was Ron (Carpenter) in the band.
ES: I didn’t realise there was a band there
RT: Orchestra
ES: Yes I know that I just thought **********
RT: *********** everyone loved old Pecker Farrar
ES: How old were you then?
RT: Oh I was very young in the silent days.
PH: I remember the Orchestra tours
RT: Then the Regal Cinema came next to that down Market Street, I don’t know how many years before, I just read about that. The Gaff, they called that The Gaff because they had Vaudeville sort of theatre. I played in the military band at the opening of the County Cinema .
Transcribers Note: The Regent Cinema opened in 1910 as the Premier Palace Peerless Peoples Theatre
ES: You did?
RT: Yes with the military band I should think that was about 1933.
ES: What instrument did you play?
RT: Clarinet in the military band you we played at the opening of it then saw all the films and stuff like that.
PH: Who was the manager who used to stand outside in evening dress?
RT: Oh I don’t know his name
ES: Did you play anywhere the clarinet anywhere else apart from the military band?
RT: Not really no
PH: Didn’t you?
RT: Well no at that time I didn’t.
ES: At any stage?
RT: Later I played in brass bands a lot
ES: Yes
RT: :***********
ES: when did you learn to play?
RT: That’s a long story. Most families were poor and I was mad on music, We could not afford instruments. I think the first thing I had was a flageolet a tin whistle, you would say. One day when I was about 13, the bandmaster of the Hertfordshire Regiment came to the school for the annual prize giving and concert to see if any boy was interested in learning a musical instrument. If so come along and see them on Friday. Three of us went I think. **************** obviously I hadn’t got my own clarinet so we had loans for a week and didn’t think about the army in any sense. I was 14 on the 31st of May and on the 2nd June they produced this form for me to sign to say I was in the Territorial Army for 4 years. That’s how I started playing.
ES: That was a bonus
RT: Well it was to me and of course later on I was able to buy, once I started work ********** that camp had to go to Colchester with the Army for about 3 months then I started my apprenticeship.
ES: So who did you play with in Hertford?
RT: Several brass bands I have got to think now L Sawyer who had a band and one time
ES: Alec Sawyer
RT: I don’t know whether his name was Eric Sawyer and then I played with Curly Bone and another band I can’t think of at the moment. No I forget now. We used to play regularly every week or two. Was I still playing when we was married?
JT: Not in the band
RT: Must have packed up the.
ES: I wanted to just ask you going back to this business of your Ma pushing the baby in the pram and others holding on to Brickendonbury
RT: Pearson’s lived there then
ES: Yes what did they have an annual fete?
RT: Nothing much a couple of stalls and a row on the lake that sort of thing. It was an outing, that’s a long walk from where we were. ***** Dad died at 49 and she was a widow until she died 40 years after that.
ES: What did your father die of?
PH: Cerebral Haemorrhage
RT: Just laid in bed….
ES: When you were young what organisations did you belong to? You said about the Tennis club what was the first club you joined? I assume there weren’t youth clubs as we know them.
RT: There were attached to the church
PH: Yes that was in the 30’s, late 30’s I mean
RT: Nothing early no nothing much in the early days nothing much just YMCA
ES: Where was that?
RT: Do you know where the fishmonger is in Hertford?
ES: Claydons?
RT: Yes was just a little way from the square somewhere there (Salisbury Square) Mr and Mrs Langer lived there Charlie their son is still around the town 83 now.
ES: What did you do there?
RT: No drinking of course nothing like that, we had tea I think. A full sized billiard table, darts, things like that.
PH: It was single a sex organisation
ES: Right and then when you had finished with that or simultaneously? What did you join was there anything else?
RT: Don’t remember much at all, with my music I was always practising, I had an older brother used to take me to Toc H and I used to take me to some of those dos
PH: and you used to play the Xylophone
RT: Well that’s nothing to do with it. I have got some programmes here going back 1932 and 1933
ES: Right I would like to look at those. So what about you Peggy where did you… what was the first youth organisation you belonged to? Thinking along the same lines. Not so much organising things but actually going to.
PH: There was not much we actually went to when I was young, we used to do ******
ES: Who organised those
PH: Neighbours
RT: ************ you were safe as houses we did we made our own fun, camped on the meads, made pop guns all that sort of thing, you could in those days
PH: My friend was at Crittal in those days my friend said there was nothing to do to interest her , so I said we would start a club and invite the American soldiers so we started that and every Wednesday went there right through the war, a lot of them are still alive, and when the soldiers came in they would provide the drink and we would provide the food because were too young to buy the drink. 'mock wedding deceptions' they used to it. You had the banquet you see and we followed it with dancing just like a wedding. It was in St Nicholas Hall in those days.
ES: So you were involved in the war in entertaining American soldiers somebody was telling me something, I think it was Thora, was saying about the women being bussed to an American camp.
PH: Oh yes we did, I remember going to one at Hunsdon, I suppose it was American I can’t really remember.
RT: Somewhere towards Buntingford I think.
PH: I think that was a party from my office had been invited because there were quite a lot of Americans stationed round here. One of my jobs was to look after the latrine buckets and coffins We lost a coffin once, it had gone on a (cake walk) or whatever you call it we could not locate this coffin.
ES: Was it in a sidings?
PH: Yes
ES: How could you possibly be in charge of the latrines?
PH: It was my particular job in the office, in the army office you see.
ES: I see
PH: I was on contacts you see I had to find the contractors.
ES: I see
PH: *********** but it’s surprising what you learned from those though because of the contractors said to me this isn’t possible I know the capacity of this pit and he said yes it is the other assistant came over and she said you know what it is the nurses come along and drop their sanitary towels in there and it blocks it and then it overflows. Anyway that was how the got to capacity with that you see. Hatfield House that was another ******** that got to capacity there was another there and they didn’t realise it was joined on to several others you see going to so they got out more than……..
ES: This is obviously a detailed subject!
PH: ************* dinner parties and dances during the war we did a holiday campaign for anyone who wanted to make some money for something or other I have got a list somewhere. I organised a Water Gala at Hertford Lock and that was because one of the soldiers that came spoke to his sister in Hertford and said I don’t know what to call you lot but I will call you the blackout club. Because of the blackout you see.
ES: Yes
PH: It was the only water gala we had in Hertford which was a pity because all this water around.
ES: It’s sad isn’t it ?
RT: No one had holidays too much during the war you see.
ES: No
PH: You see you couldn’t charge the people but I think that week we made about £65 ……that why I collected ********** we could have made more if we had had more collecting boxes but she let us have all she could.
ES: Who was she?
PH: Oh she was a big noise in the town wasn’t she Mrs Blackett-Ord
RT: ********* she was a big noise ********* and she was a real old battleaxe ********* ***************** we haven’t mentioned the Church Fellowship. I was in the doctors yesterday and chatting to Cliff Camp I didn’t think he would remember you but he referred to you as Peggy, oh yes he said I remember her way back when I was in the Church Fellowship.
PH: ************************* Church Fellowship I was the leader you see
ES: Were you running it?
PH: I did, they were all young you see I was probably 6 or 7 years older than them I was between them and the vicar you see. We had our special day at church during the week we had our own special seat and if you weren’t there no one else would sit in it. I remember one of the boys tolled the bell and played the organ and did a lot really. Mr Townsend-Ducker he was a very good minister really.
ES: Are these all double-barrelled names?
PH: His is and so was Blackett-Ord
ES: but Pecker Farrow is that just
RT: **** that was just a name yes
ES: Just a nickname Pecker
RT: Yes he had a carriers business from the Hertford East Station ***********
End of side 1
Side 2
ES: What church did you attend?
RT: The parson in those days it was the Reverend Landolph Smith who is buried by the by the church, he confirmed all four of us didn’t he?
PH: Oh yes we were christened there ……….
RT: Yes we were baptised or christened there, Cyril was the only one married there that wasn’t he?
PH: Yes
RT: Yes Cyril was the only one married there. Dad was the sides man at All Saints right up until the time he died. I wasn’t a regular church goer, I ought to have been in the choir but I wasn’t. Many many times I didn’t make it through ……. Didn’t really report that I could sing but then if you want to know about the church, have you got anything to say on that?
PH: The church……
RT: I don’t remember much….
PH: …….I remember three of us dressed as sailors it was the fashion for the youngsters to be dressed as sailors. Phil would just have been a baby then if he was even born. our father was the sidesman. You see and he took us to church in the morning while he got on with the work I suppose.
ES: Apart from your father being a sideman it didn’t loom very large in your life then?
PH: Oh yes he was a very God-fearing man wasn’t he?
RT: Oh yes singing and all that.
PH: *******
RT: …a lay preacher at All Saints said did I remember the other parson so Mr Chapman-Wood who was editor of the Mercury and left probably two months before I started. His daughter married Frank Addis you know the brush people. Landolph Smith I don’t know about the parsons that followed on from that, other would know more about it ….
ES: So where your were family Socialist or …
RT: I don’t know
ES: You don’t about that
PH: Father was a Conservative
RT: We didn’t talk about politics. It was never prominent, but he always voted Conservative and I always followed him.
ES: When you were young did you… I assume you had to help your parents do odd jobs and things
PH: Oh yes we all did
RT: You didn’t get pocket money if you didn’t, we always did though didn’t we?
ES: Did you have any money making schemes of your own to get ….
ES: To get a bit of pocket money
RT: No not even a paper round
PH: No I would collect jam jars and **********
Lots of indistinct speech over one another
RT: ********** got a little windmill or something I don’t remember any model making in our family ***********************
Peggy shows her Civil Defence arm band
ES: Oh I see let’s have a look, Civil defence, Yes I joined that briefly, if they dropped a bomb you had to get in to a brown paper sack **********
Lots of indistinct speech over one another
PH: I don’t think we really had time for it because we had to work 7 days a week, you were lucky if we got half a day off. When we were at the barracks that was
ES: You were saying the family was hard up
RT: Well no
PH: Those were the times
ES: Well yes but
RT: Up to the war there was no help It was £3 8s 6d ******** a counter hand at Bates brothers in Fore Street £2 18s
ES: Yes
RT: If they were union members they got £3 and a shilling: It sounds silly now earning £10 a week. Town Clerk he was getting about £10 a week which is £500 and something a year. Harry Bentley ****** and ******** before him.
PH: He was the one that wouldn’t let me have the water gala in the Castle Grounds so I thought I won’t be out done I will walk all round the water in Hertford with a long pole and I had got some ***** on Hartham I forget their names now and a man came out and touched me on the shoulder, I was afraid. It was a man with a dog and he said “Don’t do it miss” he said ………….
All laugh
PH: Anyway I landed up at the Hertford Lock.
ES: What is your earliest memory?
PH: Oh well father took up the floorboards in the pantry, we had a walk-in pantry. He took them up to put his potatoes down there in the winter and I suppose and I walked in and down this hole. Didn’t hurt myself but he was very very worried about it.
ES: How old were you then? Three or four
PH: Well I could read.
ES: yes
PH: Yes I suppose, we could all read early we could all read when we went to school at 5 cause father was a great reader. There was a headmaster at one time at Cowper School wasn’t he? (Phil Read)
RT: Yes Longmore school
PH: He played badminton and we were sitting out and he said “you know pity your father died so young” he said “he was one of the best-read men in Hertford”
ES: Um
RT: Haven’t heard that one before, don’t disbelieve it but I haven’t heard it before
PH: **************** but it was so he could talk on any subject he was such a reader.
ES: What’s your earliest memory?
RT: My earliest memory is two doors from where we lived there was a cellar in the house and they used to call Mum in there when there was a raid on. I couldn’t have been more than three if that when the big raids were on. Apart from the memory of the concern of the parents, the adults, I don’t remember the raids
Talk over one another again
RT: They always used to say they laid across Bengeo from where we were you see *************** the other thing I remember I couldn’t have been much older is laying on the sofa. Everyone had a sofa or a couch in those days clutching a penny and a horse and cab drove up and they carried mi into the horse and cab I suppose I was thrilled at seeing the horse and cab I don’t know and I woke up in the evening on the couch still clutching this penny and I had my tonsils out at Hertford County Hospital. All in one day.
PH: Keith had his done on the kitchen table didn’t he?
RT: he had his tooth out …..
PH: Oh his teeth was it?
RT: The entrance to the County Hospital was very narrow, just enough to take the ambulance. We only had one Ambulance in Hertford then, ting a ling a ling was all you could hear. Mr Barker was the driver
PH: This was a horse drawn ambulance of course
RT: he could just get through in to the County and I remember after that, in about 1919 or 1920,
Sitting on dad’s shoulders opposite the hospital when the Prince of Wales came to open a wing at the County. So that I could see something over the top, another thing I remember I sat on his shoulders for the opening of the War Memorial so I was, well I was born in 14 so I was 6 or 7 then.
ES: When you say the Prince of Wales do you mean…?
RT: The Prince of Wales
ES: That married Mrs Simpson
RT: That’s right yes
************
PH: I played hookey from school to see him. Then silly fool went back again afterwards. If I had stayed away and said I was ill it would have been alright……….I remember something else I remember when Phil was born you were very upset, you cried, because he had always been the one ******
RT: I came home from school at lunchtime Mrs Paul was the lady that answered the door and she said “Come upstairs you have got a new baby brother” I remember that plainly.
Talking together about if he was jealous or not!
ES: Obviously this is a very close family the way you two bicker (all laugh) Do you come from a big family?
JT: No only the two of us my sister and I
RT: You father was …
JT: Oh my father was one of about I don’t know 9 or 10
PH: Mother was one of 13 wasn’t she
ES: Were your family Hertford people?
JT: Yes my fathers was, my grandparents were Hertford people but my mother wasn’t she came from Biggleswade
ES: What bought her to Hertford?
JT: Well she came here to……. She worked at Arnold Thomas’ in Fore Street as a milliner and eventually got to head milliner. They were dressmakers as well **** and everything. They used to live in. So when she came down to Hertford that’s how she met my father because he was from a Hertford family.
ES: where did your father live? Where was the home?
JT: well they used to live…. At one time the used to live opposite St Andrews Church somewhere I think and then they used to live in Crescent House in North Road. (Now Crescent Lodge)
ES: Oh yes
RT: didn’t they also live in a pub
JT: Yes well I think that was when they were in St Andrew Street wasn’t it?
ES: Which one is Crescent House? Theres ********* that’s North Road House I think.
JT: Oh well you know where Dr Anderson is? well Crescent House is almost next door
ES: Yes yes
(discuss the detatched house but all talk over one another)
ES: and there is a little house next door isn’t there
JT: Yes The Lodge well then this Crescent House is the one next door to that. (Now called Crescent Lodge)
PH: I think next door is its flats now
ES: Was it called North Road Crescent then?
JT: Yes I think it was..
RT: I am not too familiar with that part….
JT: Yes I think it was North Road Crescent
All talk over one another discussing this
JT: I know Crescent came in to it……
ES: North Crescent I think people called it. Somebody we were speaking to said they used to go for first aid, it was a sort of clinic, where the garage, Waters Garage is now. Do you remember that?
Transcribers Note During WW2 this was an Auxiliary fire station
PH: No I don’t
RT: Don’t remember that, I remember what was her name………..
ES: Mrs Medlock
RT: No, Sessions it was Sessions Garage but they lived over the top.
ES: Oh
RT: Before it was taken over by these people
ES: Was it
RT: Mr Medlock he was the surgeon at the county, well at that time he ran a panel he was my doctor and he lived in North Road House. North House in those days and he had that little cottage built on the back.
ES: Yes sort of surgery
RT: That’s where old Burnett-Smith lived until the end and the next door he had that house built where the lady doctor is now he had that built in his time as a panel doctor.
Transcriber’s Note: Now a children’s nursery
JT: Yes. There was a clinic down St Andrew Street I think because when I was at St Andrews school we used to go down to the clinic there because they used to take your teeth out there. On St Andrews Church side, along there I think it was if I remember right.
ES: So where were you born Peggy?
JT: I was born in Sele Road
ES: Jackie sorry……….. Yes yes I must get it right for posterity
JT: I was born in Sele Road because my parents lived in Sele Road but when they were first married they had rooms in Tamworth Road and then they moved to Sele Road and I was born in Sele Road. When I was I suppose about 11 we moved up to 76 North Road and we are still there.
ES: Where is that just to …..I mean obviously I can find out but where is it? This side….
RT: No the first house beyond the north station. There is a bungalow and a bungalow and then the two houses.
JT: we are the first house on the right
ES: I ought to know because that were I dropped you that night.
Talk over one another again
ES: I expect you did I remember thinking it was probably more trouble that it’s worth for you but still. Where did you go to school?
JT: I went to St Andrews school first until I was 11 and then I went to Port Vale Snr Girls School which is now Millmead. It’s a junior school now isn’t it. Because it was all girls schools in my day until I was 14.
ES: Then went to work?
JT: Yes I went to work, I worked at D Wickham and co Engineers of Ware, I was a shorthand typist for two years.
ES: Where did you learn shorthand typing?
JT: I used to go to evening classes at Longmore School and took shorthand typing and English and then when I was 16 I left and went in to the post office. Worked on the telephone exchange, I started at Ware did my training at Ware then I went to Stanstead Abbotts. I used to go there in the mornings. I did Stanstead Abbotts in the mornings and Ware in the afternoons then I got appointments and then I was fulltime at ware for about a year or so and then I transferred to Hertford. Then I stayed at Hertford. I was in the Post Office nearly 8 years.
ES: Did Peter say your father was in the Post Office?
JT: Yes yes he finished up as assistant postmaster when he retired.
ES: Did you say you were one of two?
JT: Yes my sister she is older than me. That’s Joan *** now.
RT: Your father died young didn’t he?
JT: He was only 61 when he died, my Dad. We got married in 1966 din’t we, we got married in 1966.
ES: and you met at the tennis club?
Talk over one another again
ES: How did your paths first cross then? Do you remember the first time you saw him?
RT: At the tennis club other than that we just paired up with everybody else
ES: Yes yes
JT: I think I knew Peggy before I knew you didn’t I?
ES: is it only Phil that’s been connected with the Dramatic and Operatic Society….I mean I am surprised with your musical talent that…
RT: I did belong for a year
ES: Oh yes
RT: I belonged for two years, they used to form their own orchestra in those days, course now they don’t they bring in a complete orchestra so after that there was nothing only ushering and I got a bit cheesed off with that on their …..what’s the big thing they have their, something every night…..
ES: Oh Theatre week
RT: Yes I was redundant really everybody knew where they were going they knew their seats,
ES: Its only a bit of windows dressing really isn’t it?
RT: I was only in for the musical side of it
ES: Yes
RT: enjoyed it but I will always **************** charity work and so on.
ES: Yes, I was going to ask about the beautiful Sarah Jane
All: Mary Jane!
ES: Mary Jane, he did say Sarah but never mind….
RT: **************** people do that. *********** You would be better of talking to her. That’s Phil’s daughter.
ES: yes she acts with the dramatic society
RT: Oh yes when she is in town visiting etc.
PH: She is in the little group ….yes she is in this thing that is coming up shortly but she couldn’t take on anything bigger than that.
Talk together again.
RT: ******** you see his voice had gone, Sally she still does the make up, she is wonderful what she does to cover for Phil (Phil’s wife Mary Janes mother)
ES: were you related to the Tomlin of Gravesons?
RT: No no local relations at all. Used to be a solicitor in Hertford called Tomlin, several others, a man at Hornsmill but no relation to us.
ES: It’s not a usual name is it?
PH: No I don’t think it’s a Hertford name at all I think we are all imports.
Look at something?
PH: Going to collect things
ES: Oh I see so a scavenger hunt
RT: where was that to
ES: oh did you do this for……you arranged this did you for an organisation?
PH: It would either have to have been, I haven’t put on there, either the All Saints Youth Club or the Blackout Club. This is the Blackout club this is a mock wedding deception, you were invited to one, why I have got your invite I don’t know.
RT: Me ??
ES: Yes this is ………of course it is true……….I remember now I used to organise treasure hunts and things of that nature
PH: That was a mock wedding deception we got someone to print that off. That’s Zillah Driver is it?
PH: Yes …
RT: 1941 why was I invited I was abroad, no I wasn’t abroad I wasn’t England but I wasn’t home.
Talk over one another
ES: What I was also going to say, sorry to interrupt, about you speaking on the BBC on the programme.
PH: 'Gibraltar Calling',
ES: Yes so how did that happen?
JT: Ron was in Gibraltar during the second world war,
PH: I can’t remember whether the BBC announced they wanted people….
RT: What was the ladies name
PH: I don’t know
RT: I think I have got a slip of that somewhere they gave me.
PH: No I can’t remember at all……… what did surprise me was one of the cousins on the, what do you all it, the torpedo, what do you call it, with water
ES: Submarine?
PH: Yes submarine, he was about 6ft 3 and he got a job like that on a submarine! And he heard me which surprised me at the time because I hadn’t thought ….
ES: was it a programme something like say “forces favourites” ? if you had got somebody overseas you could apply..
RT: That’s right
PH: Yes you applied that’s right
ES: You actually spoke, they didn’t speak on your behalf, did you have to go up to the BBC
PH: Yes we all stood in a line and then they tested us all and those who were accepted…..
RT: ************** don’t forget there were no soaps at the time, about half a dozen words and she finished up with ********
PH: ********** Lawn Tennis club ************ Lord Mayors banquet
RT: 1940…… no it wasn’t
Peggy displays a variety of old programmes of events she helped organise and Ron shows similar ones where he, playing an instrument, is listed. as part of the entertainment.
PH: The Cowbridge winter sports club invites you to their Christmas Party, oh that was at the parish hall, Duncombe Road, dancing and…….. That’s is the mock wedding where there were waiters, were you a waiter?
ES: You have obviously been a great organiser
PH: I always enjoyed organising rather than going to something
ES: Yes yes
PH: So it was with the dances I did the dances for Stephen Austin whilst I was there. Had a red carpet put down at the shire hall for half a crown……
ES: cost more than that now…
RT: Like an aisle you know.
ES: were you going to say something indiscreet?
PH: Mr Harrison you see, Victor Harrison was the boss you know, in those days, I don’t know if it’s like it in the Shire Hall nowadays I don’t think it is. You went in the doors and, how do you call it, instead of being straight across there were two little bits here, what do you call those?
ES: like sentry boxes? That *** you mean
PH: No not really it was a cut-out recess
ES: Oh I see yes
PH: So I had that carpeted and had a special table put out for Mr Harrison his wife and family. That was his second wife you know.
ES: Was he the boss at Stephen Austin?
PH: Yes
RT: he was Stalley, You have heard of Stalley, Stalley have you he was magistrate around Hertford for some years well his father he was a ****** boy really he had his shop he was German descent, well his father was German ***********
PH: You wouldn’t know yourself that he was German descent except that ***
RT: All the machinery you had in those days was German and the German mechanics used to come and erect them.
PH: well I suspected it when that German boy came and it was all so secret he didn’t come there to work and we were told his name was Ernst Hermann, and I suppose he was a lad about 17, he was a Jew you see
ES: Right
PH: This was just before war broke out, the year before. Mr Harrison had got him out I suppose to get him to America and I have often wondered, I wonder if he made it. You wonder about those little things that happened.
ES: Right
JT: Talking about who organised things used to belong to the twenties club at All Saints, All Saints' Twenties Club we used to call it.
PH: Of course that was after my time
Talk together
PH: Did it mean you were restricted to 20 people or ..
JT: No that was the ages we were all in our twenties and of course I used to play tennis, used to belong to the **** tennis club and badminton they used to play
PH: Of course it was prior to that we had the All Saints tennis club because I have got a photograph of it.
ES: Where did that operate?
PH: Wish I could remember, Vernon Hales is on the photograph, Eileen Duckworth..
ES: You used to play at West Street did you once a week?…
RT: *******
PH: That was The Grove though wasn’t it, it moved
JT: They used to play at Balls Park didn’t they before they moved to
RT: ************ various courts we had one at ******** back of Hagsdell and its still in ruins you can see the old iron bars. One at Rickneys Farm, one at Stapleford at different times that was before I joined the ………
ES: Where were the tennis courts in West Street, were they in Miss McMullen’s?
RT: No right beside the football pitch
ES: Oh I see yes yes
RT: It is a football pitch?
PH: Belonged to the Baptist church was it?
JT: No Congregational church Cowbridge was it? That’s what we thought at the time.
PH: You see so many outsiders joined there were more that than the chapel/ church and they wanted to play on Sundays and of course the chapel people didn’t. I am afraid they did some…..they moved ……….do you remember this Ron? They moved all the equipment up to Balls Park and that where they played from then on. But it really belonged to the Baptist was it or the Congregational?
JT: No I don’t remember. I don’t want to…….
PH: Dirty tricks really but it went on for years and years after that. It was because so many outsiders joined.
ES: It was to get rid of the outsiders was it?
PH: No the outsiders wanted to play Sundays you see and the church people didn’t so the outsiders took it all away and put it somewhere else.
ES: Oh I see
PH: There wasn’t any action taken by the church
ES: Right well, is there anything else you want to tell me about?
RT: If you want a full assessment of what I did
ES: I do really
RT: I did the hospital library service for 35 years that’s going round with the trolley and chatting to the patients
ES: Yes
RT: After that I thought I was going to have a break and I was approached by the talking newspaper saying they had been, for about 6 months they had been producing one a fortnight and they wanted to do one a week and they wanted another editor so I did that for about ********* years
All start talking over one another
ES: One form each, they are different forms
The tape ends