Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Crocker, Katie (O1996.8) |
| Interviewee | Malcolm Kerr (MK)and Katie Crocker (KC) |
| Interviewer | Peter Ruffles (PR) |
| Date | 09/04/1996 |
| Transcriber by | Jean Purkis (Riddell)) |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no O 1996.8
Interviewee: Malcolm Kerr (MK)and Katie Crocker (KC)
Date: 9th April 1996
Venue: 17, Sele Road
Interviewers: Peter Ruffles (PR)
Transcriber: Jean Purkis (Riddell))
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
KC: Well, Bowen Wells said to me always, “Have you seen Peter?”. I said, “No, he's very busy.”
MK: I think they think that M.B.E. means you can perform miracles. I'm not quite sure.
PR: Well, no.
MK: I mean, you ever thought of sort of saying well, enough's enough, I'm not going to do it no more?
PR: I do quite often. But then you want to keep trying don't you, and see what you can do?
MK: Yes, I understand that, mate. I do understand that. That's what's known as television without sound.
PR: Oh, right, er.
KC: 'Cos he doesn't have a lot to do with it, Bowen Wells don't.
PR: Not really, no.
KC: No, he's told me, but he said, I am going to do something about you.
PR: Yes, he can write letters and try and persuade the officers just the same as councillors can do.
MK: Yeah, yeah. Some people tend to think, like Bowen Wells, I was saying to Katie, “But he can't perform miracles no more than”
PR: Right, now.
KC: I mean, he said to me, “You're going separate.” I found this all out. He said, “I don't know when you're going but you're going.” So, I mean, he's found all that out.
PR: I probably told him that. Now, I'll tell you what this is, and then we'll start talking. I think I've got the little cribber thing saying I've got it about right for sound.
MK: Ha, ha, ha!
PR: Now, the museum has been asking some people to collect memories from people that know Hertford quite well and have done over the years. Little bits and pieces that have happened about their own lives and about the town and odd changes. And then we do a quick recording, about 20 minutes or half an hour that goes into the museum.
KC: Yeah!
PR: And they keep it there but someone, it sometimes takes about a year, types up bits of what we say. They might do the whole thing or might do just little bits so someone could read it and then forty or fifty years' time they can say, well that is really what the history of Hertford was like, not what the history books say. 'Cos for real people and I've been talking to, well, George and Kit Capel and I was going to record them and er, George, I think, was quite keen really, but em, I dunno whether you might like to hold…?
KC: Hold that, Peter, like that, yeah.
PR: So long as you don't wriggle it too much.
KC: No, that's right
PR: It's a bit of a nuisance. A tiddly thing to hold.
KC: Don't forget your tea, Peter, on here look, give him a drink 'cos it's
PR: So, George's going to tell us bits and Kit, course, time and pressure and never getting, so, er, now It hink what the. We've been to all sorts of people including Dorothy Abel-Smith at Woodhall Park, so we do the whole of the community. Now, that's a bit out of town, but we don't just go to the working people, though lots of people are like Ruby Henry, who, because they tended to stay in the town longer and knew what really hard times were like. Yesterday I was talking to somebody down, well, Mrs. Slight up the top of the hill here, born in Hattam's Yard, one of the yards in St. Andrew Street, and all fascinating in the hard…
KC: In the hard times. It was when we was there, nine of us in a two bedroom at Water Lane.
PR: Now, that's what George said, Water Lane.
KC: Oh, it was, it was terrible.
PR: I could start rolling on that, couldn't I? I'll just say a little bit. I'm sitting at number. What number?
MK: 17.
PR: 17, Sele Road. It's just after Easter, 1996 and I'm with someone that I call Katie Crocker, Malcolm calls Auntie Glad, and we're in Malcolm's house and we are just gonna, to have a few little memories, Katie, and one or two that Malcolm might chip on in himself, about Hertford life and some difficulties really, of the past as you just said you were…
KC: Lived at Water Lane
PR: Lived at Water Lane. Now, when were you born, Katie?
KC: When? I was born 4th August, 1924.
PR: And have you lived in Hertford nearly all your…?
KC: Yes, except going to Harlow for (44 years) 'cos I got married at 27 and I went to build Harlow new town. And I said to Bowen Wells, “I married a Sibthorpe.” And he said, “Well we had a Sibthorpe, the County Planning Officer.” “Well,” I said, “I married his nephew.”
PR: Oh, did you?
KC: Yeah, yeah.
PR: So time away in Harlow but you got childhood memories.
KC: But I come back in, I worked for the British Railway, but I come back every day to look after my people at Sele Road and Malcolm was there. I was 27 when I went to Harlow. Actually I should have brought the negatives to show Peter. I've brought you on there, Kevin, on there and all of them. You want to see it, lovely.
PR: Now, your family is a very old Hertford family, because there were lots of Hart family.
KC: You may not believe it Peter, but my mother come from London. She come from Islington, Chapel Street. They had two greengrocers business and she had servants, right, nanny did.
MK: She did.
KC: And they died when she was 5years old. There you are! She had servants.
PR: So, how did she? I can remember her because she looked after you (Malcolm) a lot, didn't she?
KC: Yes.
PR: Probably when your mum was working, was it?
MK: When my dad left. I was about 10 years of age. We lived at 19, Hawthorne Close, Sele Farm, and my dad separated from my mum, and I went to live with my grandparents and I stayed with them
KC: Up Sele Road
PR: That's when I first remember you.
MK: Most of my life, I stayed with them, you know, because they brought me up Peter, and I'd like to say, in the right manner and I didn't feel I needed to go anywhere else.
PR: What was her Christian name, you grandmother?
KC: Kate! That's why I
PR: That's how you
MK: That's why her name's Katie, but I've always known her as
KC: Glad, see, but my name's Katie.
MK: But her name is Katie
PR: So we'd better try and keep the order clear. It's always a job. But it's tidied up in my mind when I used to see her bringing you down to St. Andrew's School and you would have been about 9 then
MK: I used to go shopping with her to Hugmans.
KC: She worked at Dr. Mortis's. She did Dr. Medlock's, Dr. Bevan, everywhere and that's why Dr. Mortis, my brother, I went to look after at Brickendon Lane. He wanted it kept in Hart family. So he did his garden for him, wasn't it?
Trancribers’ note: We think he means his brother did Dr Mortis’s garden
PR: That's when he was living up at Morgans.
KC: Yes, that's right.
PR: But your ma would have worked for him.
KC: Down North Road
PR: So, why did she come to Hertford from Islington?
KC: Well, because her parents died and she went to Waterford and that's where they brought her up, see and that's where she met my pa.
PR: So, did she, I know it's a quiz this, go to Waterford to a family?
KC: Yes, she did she went to a pub.
PR: People she knew?
KC: Yes, people she knew and then she came back to Hertford.
PR: She met your dad in Hertford, I suppose?
KC: Yes, yes.
PR: You don't know how she met him? How she ran into him?
KC: No, I don't really know that Peter, I don't. We never talked about it.
PR: And his family were a Hertford family then, were they?
KC: No, he came from Waterford. He come from Waterford, granddad did see and that's where she went to stay with some people.
PR: That's Malcolm's granddad?
MK: Yeah, that's it, yeah.
PR: And then how did they get to be in Water Lane then?
KC: Well, em, what it was, I think they got married and that place was empty, see. There it was just two bedrooms up there was, oh, it was terrible, nine of us in that, wasn't it, nine of…
PR: I can remember the house but it was empty by the time I got there. That's when I was a kid. Presumably 'cos she'd come to live in Sele Road.
KC: That's right, yes.
PR: Did anybody go into it after them. They probably just left it, did they?
KC: Just left it, and it, pulled it down, yes.
PR: In the end, yes. And it was on the right hand side of Castle Alleys as you go from St. Andrew's Church towards Castle Street, with a door right down on the pavement with a little
KC: That's right, door right down. That's right.
PR: And were there two cottages next door to each other?
KC: Yes, it was just Mrs. Moore used to live next door to us, just husband and wife and then all us lot born down there. Nine, terrible isn't it?
PR: So where do you come in the order then?
KC: My sister, there was no room there for us, she had to live, she had to sleep over with my sister-in-law across the way.
PR: Ah, was that Eve and Pat's?
KC: Yes.
PR: Tony's wife?
KC: That's right! That's where my sister had to stay, in there.
PR: Right. Now let's get the order of your brothers and sisters. Where are you? Not number one or number two?
KC: No, I'm the one but last, because my sister down the Folly, she was the youngest. She was born after me, Nan was, Malcolm wasn't she?
MK: Yeah.
PR: Where was she living? At 24 The Folly?
KC: That's right, yes.
PR: Called Mrs
KC: Mrs. Bentley.
PR: I delivered her papers.
KC: Yes, she told me.
MK: Her husband Bill looked very much like Clark Gable.
KC: Oh, he's a nice-looking man, yes, and the son
PR: He died, didn't he, quite early?
KC: Fifty-two! Oh, he used to pull my leg, didn't he? Oh, he was a lovely man.
PR: So she was the baby of the family?
KC: She was.
PR: But she moved from there round into
KC: Round the front there, Frampton, that's right.
PR: And one up from that is you.
KC: Me, yes, then there's his mother.
PR: Margaret. Let's get the names right. Yes. Then how did we go?
KC: Now from there is Cyril
MK: Lives on the Isle of Man now
PR: He's the quite wealthy one, isn't he?
MK: He's quite well off. He did have two boarding houses. Now he's just got the one. Now, as we speak he's in America visiting relations. To be truthful he went out there with nothing, and they had nothing, so to be fair to him, he's grafted, earned it.
KC: What happened was, he fell through the building and had to have a steel plate in his leg. He's got a steel plate. He was doing this place and he fell through the building. There's lot of people been out there and they said they'd been made very welcome. Now there's a man down Bircherley Court, he's just moved in there. I was mad when he went in the place but there you are. And he took me in there yesterday and he said, “Would you like a cup of coffee, Katie” I said, “Oh, no, you come in my place and have a cup of coffee. Told Malcolm. He took me in there. He made me welcome. He said, “What do you think of it.” I said, “It's very very nice.” “Well,” he said, “I like it because it's near the town and I've had two heart attacks. And I know I've been away fifty odd years in Brighton,” he said, “but I asked for it and I got it. My doctor got it because I'd had two heart attacks.”
PR: That's Geoff Hart.
KC: Yes, took me in there yesterday.
PR: Yeah, worked on the Pullman carriages at Brighton Works.
KC: 'Cos he said to me, “You know a lot about the railway, don't you?” I said, “Yes.”
KC: Eh?
PR: Is he a relation of yours?
KC: No. Everybody asks me that because when they see me coming out Bircherley Court, two ladies said to me this morning, “Is Geoff any relation to you?.” “No!” I said, “We're a different Hart, we are.”
PR: 'Cos he was born in Ivy Passage, West St.
KC: That's right, yes.
PR: Right, so we're goin' up the
KC: We goin' up the ladder now. Cyril, he was the next one.
MK: And just to butt in a bit, he used to work as a plasterer, used to have a whole gang of people including my father and Jim Wilson and loads of them.
KC: Yes, loads of them
MK: Years ago, when I was 14, 15 he used to have his own you know. I suppose, if you like, quite big.
KC: He's a wonderful footballer. He got the cup from Hertford. Oh, yes! Yes, he's a wonderful footballer.
PR: So, right, Cyril. What
KC: After Cyril, comes my brother Ted. He died at 27 up Sele Road. He had TB. You would have loved him, Peter.
PR: Did he die with his parents?
KC: Died with us, yes. When the war was on. He was loved by everybody, he was. He was lovely. He should've been on the stage. He was a proper comedian. He used to make my Ton's wife, oh, she used to curl up, didn't she? Yes, he was. Well, he was next. Oh, I mustn't forget Tony. Oh, think Tony comes next, then Ted.
PR: Tony?
KC: He was a milkman. Oh, they all loved him.
PR: But he also used to stoke the church, St. Andrew's Church
KC: Yes, used to do the church, yes.
PR: Go in the stoke hole in the cokey days. And he lived in the Castle Alleys, opposite where he was born then.
KC: That's right.
PR: About number ten?
KC: That's right, opposite, us, yes.
PR: But then, 'is wife, she was at Sele Farm, wasn't she, but wasn't that after Tony had died? It probably was, wasn't it?
KC: No, he, em, they was at Sele Farm when he got off the bus and dropped down dead.
PR: Oh!
KC: Yes.
MK: And that was Tudor Way, wasn't it, because I used to go out with Tony and help him, only being a young lad, at time, and he used to take me with him and they was living in Tudor Way, as you say. And then got off the bus and he dropped down dead. Then, Yvonne, Eva, moved over to Windsor Drive.
PR: She was quite short and stocky?
KC: Short and stocky, always laughing.
MK: Always laughing, yes.
KC: Everybody loved her.
MK: Used to crack me up when I used to go out with him, you know, it was
PR: Did he just have those two daughters, Pat and Eve?
KC: Pat and Eve, yes that's all he had. No, he had, Pat, Eve, and Jean. Jean died with leukaemia at forty odd. She could play the piano beautiful.
MK: She was another character.
KC: She was another one. Everybody loved her, didn't they? It's terrible.
PR: So, that's Tony and we've had Cyril, going well up the line, now!
MK: We've gone past Ted we must be going up towards
KC: Now, there's George.
MK: Yeah, George.
PR: Was he the eldest?
KC: No, my brother I looked after at Brickendon Lane, when he died. I kept him going until he was 89.
PR: Ah!
MK: Les.
KC: Les. He left school at 14.
PR: Oh, did he?
KC: Yes, he said he had to leave school because he said there was nine of us and we were so poor.
PR: What would he have done then? How did he get money, when he left school?
KC: Well, what he did, he went around asking anybody want jobs done to get money 'cos we were so poor. Yes, 12 years old, used to do anything. He's worked hard in his life.
PR: Did he marry then?
KC: Yes, he married. Yes, and he had five children of his own. He had John, who worked up the Police Station here. Then he had Barbara who had the pub in Hertford up Port Vale, Millstream, yes. And then he had Beryl who had the central heating business in Hertford, didn't she? And as I say we got Bill down the Folly, who's the decorator, Bentleys. Oh, yes, they all done well and my brother I looked after at Brickendon Lane, he said he was proud of his children, and his daughter's also got a business down Mead Lane. That does all the doctors' cars. Cathy at Bramfield, yes. I know Dr. Bench has his done. Dr. Robinson has his done.
PR: A hard working…
KC: Family.
PR: Now, he wasn't called Skim, was he?
KC: No, it's my brother at the Isle o' Man's called Skim.
PR: How did that come about, that name?
KC: Well, it was a nickname, you know. George, he was called Geppy.
MK: Geppy Hart, not George, like she's always been Glad to me.
KC: Yes, but my name's Katie, after my mother.
MK: Always called her Glad. Geppy Hart, Skim! Now I don't know this for a fact, but I reckon, I'm only sort of surmising here, how he got his name. He was a plasterer and he had lots and lots people worked under him. Well, when you finish off plastering, like at first you put the bottom coat on, and the top coat, they call it a skim, you skim over and I wonder if that skim over and him being a plasterer. I think that's how he got the name, you know.
KC: His mother, I think, called Margaret, they called her Maggie. And my young sister that died of the cancer, didn't call her Dorothy, Nan. We all had a nickname.
MK: If we never called anyone by their proper name, Peter.
KC: All had nicknames them days.
PR: But Skim has been mentioned several times in other people's tapes as being a character around town.
KC: Well, he was, he, did you see it in the paper? I got a bit there, cut out, where he cleared the mines. And he went to London to get his medals.
PR: Ah.
KC: Yeah, was in the Mercury, 'cos his daughter put it in.
PR: I may have seen it and then
KC: Well, I got that bit at home where he went to get his medals for clearing the minesweepers during the war.
PR: Mmm. Now, have we done all nine?
KC: No, my brother, him up there, he's nearly 88, Reg.
PR: Where does he live now?
KC: He lives at Warren Terrace. He's not too bad, but he's not all that good. I go round there to him every day.
PR: Do you?
KC: Oh, yes, got to, yes.
PR: You are the trouper, Glad, aren't you!
KC: Well, got to, isn't, I mean.
MK: She comes here most days, to see me.
KC: And this is why the doctor's put me on tablets because I collapsed and he said the trouble I've got where I live is disgusting. Well, Bowen Wells said it's a disgusting household you live in. Well, it is, it tells on you. I'm nearly 72, be 72 in August. It does tell on you, yes.
MK: I can always remember Reg. Now, Reg, I always used to think of him as rather a sergeant major. He's a bit like me, although with the illness I just potter about. He was always striding, wasn't he, always had an umbrella.
KC: Poshed up, ooh, you'd thinks he's, ooh. Gentleman Jim, we used to call him. Oh, yes.
MK: He never used to amble anywhere. He was never in a hurry to get anywhere. It was just the way he walked.
KC: And his shoes! Oh, immaculate, had to go out immaculate.
MK: Always remember him saying one thing that stuck with me, 'Shoes maketh the man.' And that's true. Somebody can have a £500 suit but if their shoes are not clean it doesn't and that's the thing I've always remembered, shoes must be clean and tidy.
KC: As I say, I have to go in there every day Peter, because you never know. He's getting on and I'm his next of kin and it's
PR: What did he do then? When he was working?
KC: I'll tell you what he used to do. He used to do a lot of work for Mrs. Paddick. Decorator, he's a lovely painter and decorator. Oh, yes, yes.
PR: Where was she operating then?
KC: She's down what's name, isn't she, down the town. She's got two businesses, hasn't she? Two florists.
PR: So did she employ him all the time then? Or was that
KC: Yes, she did. Then, some of the time he went with Cyril, didn't he?
MK: He went with Skim. He'd turn his hand at anything.
KC: He could do anything, oh yes.
MK: That's one thing I'll say about them all, they're never afraid of getting their hands dirty. They didn't sort of say I'll only hang wallpaper and decorate, can't go and dig a hole or I can't do this. They didn't mind. You needed to earn a living, you know, and they had to go out and earn it. But they always had time. I always remember about Joe and Katie. They always had time for everyone, no matter what and the door was always open.
KC: Oh, the lady next door, Iris, she lost her husband and she got six children, next door to my mum, up Sele Road, Mrs. Haniver. She's Catholic.
PR: Haniver
KC: Haniver Oh, she thought my mum and dad was lovely. And I used to say, to say to her, “Well, I'm going back to Harlow now, now everything is all right and I'll see them in the morning.” And she said, “Don't worry. Look, I'll see if they're all right tonight. Yes? She did! Oh, we treated her well, didn't we?
MK: I always remember them having two lodgers as well.
KC: Oh yes, three lodgers.
MK: But two at one time. There was Mick and Michael, wasn't there? They was either Czechs or Yugoslavs.
KC: Yes, they come over during the war.
PR: Who was giving them lodging?
KC: My mother and father.
MK: They was either Yugoslavs or Czechs. And I'll tell you what, one always used to say to me 'cowboy', didn't he, lovely old boy. Well he didn't say 'cow', he pronounced it with an aitch, like 'howboy.'
KC: Oh, they were lovely.
MK: 'Cos we were always playing cowboys.
KC: And then we had Les, and er, Derek. They were Hertfordshire Wheelers. They lived with my mum.
MK: And then we had, what was his name, Tom Medhurst?
KC: Yes, her brother, he would, he come from South Africa.
MK: He come from South Africa.
PR: So how did they find the lodgers then? Was it just word of mouth? They didn't put adverts in
KC: Yes!
MK: They just sort of come up and said we've heard from people that you might be interested in taking, and they never refused anyone. I can never remember
KC: No, they wouldn't refuse anybody, would they?
MK: But I was so amazed, being a young lad, seeing foreign people.
KC: Oh, they were lovely, weren't they?
MK: As I say, I was always playing cowboys like boys do, in the back garden and he always used to say when he used to come in, "Hallo howboy" and he always used to pronounce it with an aitch rather than a 'c·. I always found, it's funny as we've been talking about the family, with different names, you know, not their proper names, but like nicknames.
I can always remember Dr. Mortis, he used to come, didn't he, doctor, and he always called me Clifford. I still don't know to this day why he called me Clifford. I wish I did know because he used to say. "How are you Clifford? " I used to think, my name's Malcolm, not Clifford, you know and he always called me Clifford. I don't know why, but
PR: He's made a recording, Dr. Mortis.
MK: Oh, he was a lovely man!
PR: We talked to him!
KC: Yes! Oh, I cleaned his car for him when I was looking after my brother at Brickendon Lane.
PR: He was driving that 'till he was about over 90, wasn't he?
KC: He was! He used to ring up. "Is that Mr. Hart's sister?" I said "Speaking!" He said, “Now I'm going to ask you something.” He said, “I know you're a very busy woman,” he said, “and you're always out there working in that lovely garden.” I was praised up for the garden by Dr. Bench and everybody, Dr. Robinson.
PR: I remember that at Brickendon Lane.
KC: They said, oh, it's beautiful, everywhere. When they come up from East Herts the lady she said, “Oh, it's immaculate. Every where's beautiful.
PR: So, old Dr. Mortis wanted you
KC: To clean his car. Used to say to me, “Miss Hart.” I said, “Yes, now what do you want now.” He said, “Would you come and clean my car?” So I said, “Oh, I suppose so.” “l'll get the tools out,” he said, “So you can do inside. And then he used to give me an envelope, £10!
PR: Oh!
KC: Yes, and course his family used to say, “Well who's done that car?” “Ah, Miss Hart.”
“Oh,” they said , don't you do it beautiful. they said, “You'd get a job cleaning cars!”
PR: That was not long ago, really.
KC: No, it wasn't, that was three years ago, three years ago.
PR: Oh, as recently as that!
KC: And that was up Brickendon Lane, yes.
PR: And I suppose we'd better, just bring, see how I'm doing for tape.
Quite a long interval here while checking goes on.
PR: What about the present situation? You're hoping for a move, because after looking after your brother in Brickendon Lane, you went up to Bengeo and they put you in a …
KC: Two bedroom house.
PR: With a very steep.
KC: Oh, it's terrible, 'Tis steep, it goes up like a ladder.
PR: Stairway?
MK: Well, even my son said he wouldn't like to live there.
KC: It's not meant for people my age. It's just meant for one parent families.
PR: And so what, will you ideally move again?
KC: We're going separate. I'm glad 'cos I've not had my proper food for three years I haven't!
PR: That's sharing with a sister
KC: And she don't pay no Council Tax.
PR: Different lifestyle, really.
MK: She don't like onions being cooked, Peter, all things like that you mustn't. I think Glad's got to a situation now where she's fed up with the, you know, keep arguing and rowing over it.
KC: That's why I pay it. Oh, here's our, er, Elaine
(Lots of laughter)
PR: Just gettin' a bit of history.
MK: Oh, are you? Just gettin' a bit of history. Sorting out that ****'s face.
KC: Oh, you can't help laughing at her.
MK: She's far better at doing it than me. I must be honest with you, just sort of tend to say, yeah, well
KC: As I say, Peter, I got to pay it, otherwise I'll be in clink.
PR: Yes.
KC: Yes, but it's not fair on me, is it?
MK: Oh, no, no, I must say.
KC: I love having a stew. I daren't make a stew. I daren't do anything. That's why a lot of people say, “Haven't you gone thin?”
PR: Yeah.
KC: I said, “Yes, I miss my food.”
MK: You're having a bit of trouble with one...(mic)
PR: Yes, I am. It's a good thing we've got two on the go, isn't it? 'Cos, em, not to worry. What about? Let's go back to when you were a kid, Water Lane. How you got on for normal living and sleeping and working.
KC: Well, had to rough it, we did.
PR: How did you all? I know you mentioned Tony
KC: Margaret had to go and sleep over there.
PR: Margaret went across to Tony's because by then he'd got a place of his own and married opposite
KC: And then we was all us in one room, all us girls with my mother and father and the boys in the other room altogether. And we had to have an old boiler put on so we could have a wash and a bath. Oh, it was terrible. It was
PR: So, you all slept in what, in one bed or beds line up.
KC: No, we all had different beds and, but we did manage and some of the boys had to sleep together in the beds. It was awful. It was.
PR: Lots of families like it, though.
KC: There is, there is.
PR: Because before the council started building, that's where everybody operated from.
KC: Yes. Then of course Mr. Carter, in the end we went to Horns Mill, made us go to Horns Mill.
PR: Oh, did, he? Yes.
KC: Yes, you know, from Water Lane.
MK: Was born up the prefabs, I can remember that, up the old prefabs.
PR: But what about meals and things? How did you do cooking?
KC: Well, we had an old range there, coal range, and we all had to sit separately, about four of us at a time, yes, it was terr…
PR: And your mum would do all the cooking, or would anybody…?
KC: No, we always used to help her. We had a range and she used to do the cooking. We used to help her. Then we used to sit down there four at a time, separate, weren't enough room.
PR: That's smashing. What about lighting?
KC: Oh, we had candles!
(Laughs)
KC: candles, terrible.
PR: No gas in there then?
KC: No, no.
PR: Was there, by the time you moved?
KC: No, there was still candles.
PR: Oh, blimey, not, no oil, you didn't have an oil lamp or something?
KC: No, no, we just had the range.
PR: Cor, isn't that great. It's another world. That's what people don't realise!
KC: And we didn't have no tablecloths. We had paper.
MK: This is the thing, though, you was happy.
KC: Oh, we was. I used to go down the bottom of Water Lane and go in the water cray-fishing crabs. We all did, but we was very happy, yes.
PR: What did you say about bathing? When you washed, how did you wash?
KC: Oh well, the boys went out while my mother used to bath the girls and then they had their bath the next night, that's how we used to do it., terrible.
PR: That was common though, wasn't it? People don't realise it.
MK: I'll tell you something even later, obviously going on a bit now to when I went to live with them at Sele Road at 34, tell you what, she could cook.
KC: Who, Nanny?
MK: I'll tell you what, mate
KC: My gran, yeah, my mum
MK: I mean people talk about making stews today and they get all these diced up bits of meat out of frozen but she used to do a neck of mutton stew that er, oh, used to water in. It fell apart, didn't it, as you ate it and er, I'm not sure what bread and bu
KC: Bread and butter pudding, yes.
MK: Brilliant and Yorkshire puddings, all made, not these you whip up in 5 minutes from a supermarket.
KC: No, made, home made.
MK: Good wholesome food, that's what they lived on. I mean we had a stew every week, didn't we?
KC: Well, Dad had allotment, up Hertingfordbury
MK: Up Hertingfordbury, used to take us down there every weekend with him. I loved him.
KC: Yes, we had all fresh vegetables.
MK: That's where I got my love of gardening from, him.
PR: Cooking on a stove was a particularly skilled thing, not like
KC: Not like a gas cooker, the real fire beautiful, lovely and the meat, always was lovely, weren't it?
MK: Nothing was too much trouble, not for anyone or anything
PR: What about toilets then, where were?
KC: The toilet was up the garden, old shed.
PR: Down towards the river, or…?
KC: No it was in the back garden.
PR: Towards Nicholls?
KC: It was cut off, with a door.
PR: And there was the Black Swan, wasn't there?
KC: Yes, up the top, yes. We used to go up there, used to dance round the maypole, all of us!
MK: To be honest, I mean, I know I'm sort of, if you like a little bit later in time
KC: We had a grand time
MK: Yeah, and I can never remember them not working at something or another. I mean I can always remember like, Katie, your mum going to the Girls' Guide hut
KC: Oh, yes, she used to look after that.
MK: She used to clean that and look after that.
KC: And then she used to go down to Dr. Mortis's. They had people come. I used to go down and help her at night.
PR: She was working then 'till she was?
KC: She was working then 'till she was 81. Now, Mrs, what's that Dr. Bevan's wife, what's her name now?
PR: Swallow?
KC: Mrs. Swallow. Now whenever she sees me she says to me, “Ah, you're Mrs. Hart's daughter.” See, 'cos she remembers me helping her down North Road, Mrs. Swallow, because she said to me when the election was, she said to me - I said, “I voted for you.” She said, “Oh, good.” She said, “If I get in,” she said, “You just come and see me,” she said. She said, “I'll get you out that flippin' rut there what's going on.” That's what she said, yes, but she didn't get in. No, see this is the words she said
PR: So, we've got the Black Swan, the Girl Guides' hut, all of West Street and we're up and down Water Lane here
(Laughter)
MK: There's lots of things, I mean, there's lots of things you can remember, well I can remember, anyway. I mean its lots of things.
PR: Everyone knows everybody else
MK: I mean, how old was Joe when he died about 90?
KC: 91! He had a prostate gland at 88. Dr. Mortis come home in his white coat. Dr. Bedford come over in his white coat and his white boots on and said to me, “Now, if your father doesn't come within 48 hours you'll have no father.” He said, “I beg you to talk to him.”
I said, “All right, I'll talk to him.” So when they went, I said, “Oh Dad, go for me will you.”
“Ah, all right, I'll go for you then.” He ummed and ahhed and I said, “Go!” And then I went over there and I said, “he'll come.” They got the ambulance and that was it and they said he was a marvellous patient, for a man of 88.
MK: And he was still doing his allotment at 90.
KC: Yes.
MK: Then a little while after that, I said, “Going down the allotment, today, Joe?” And he said, “No, not going today boy.” And I said to her, “That's funny, he's not going down his allotment. He don't want to seem to do nothing.”
KC: And then he was took ill, wasn't he? Then I took him to the County. George was there when he died 'cos I went back to Harlow see. But then when I rung up they said he's just passed away.
MK: Course, you couldn't keep him away from his garden, you know. He was still working at like 88, doing gardening for people like Medlocks and that. For him not to want to go to do his garden was, well, not heard of.
PR: What happened to his wife then, then? Did she stay on up here?
KC: See. I was taken ill in Harlow. I had a breakdown. And what happened was…
MK: I'd had to go to Sele Farm with my mum, up to 26, The Ridgeway. George took Katie, Joe's wife to Horns Mill with them, didn't he? And the next thing we knew
PR: Oh, George was at Horns Mill was he, before he moved up to Ashley Road?
MK: George was at Horns Mill.
KC: And they took her there but they put her in a room. Your brother saw her. She got no wallpaper on the wall and I think they treated her rotten. And that's why I did not go to the funeral, because I would have been a blasted hypocrite.
MK: It's difficult to say, because nobody sort of knew, but suddenly she was in hospital, wasn't she?
KC: Yes, she was. They took her right to Epping and I was told they treated her rotten in there, 'cos the nurse said to Nan, “Shake her.” She said, “Shake her. I'll shake you.” Yes, they treated her rotten in Epping. Oh, she had a bad end they said. It was a terrible end, all what she'd done, you know
MK: Someone sort of said to, I didn't even know she was in Epping. I didn't know.
KC: Well, I didn't know.
MK: She didn't know; nobody knew. Someone sort of said to me, “Sorry to hear Mrs. Hart's dead.” And I went “WHAT?”
KC: And I never knew 'cos' was ill and the next minute I come over and I said where's Mum and they said they buried her and never even let me know.
PR: Mmm.
KC: I was ill.
PR: And away.
KC: Yes.
MK: I don't think many people, I'rn not sure. There wasn't many of her actual children that did know. We certainly didn't know when I was up at The Ridgeway. We had no…
KC: No, I didn't know in Harlow.
MK: Someone said to me, you know, “Sorry to hear about your gran.” And I went, “Well no, she's up with…” 'Cos I still thought she was up at Horns Mill, and I said “Sorry to hear about, what's wrong with her?” They said, “She's dead. And I said, “Don't be silly.” I thought her being there someone would have automatically said because you know, always being there
KC: But er, you see George's wife, she was Welsh. Funny person to get on with, very funny. There isn't very many people like her.. George, yes, they get on well with George, but not her.
MK: She couldn't be left on her own in Sele Road. I know we had Skim come down as well, didn't we? And everyone was trying to work out. I remember Skim coming up to The Ridgeway to see my mother and saying, “Well you'll have to take Malcolm with you because Mrs. Hart could no longer.” You know, she'd had a fall, hadn't she?
KC: Yes, she had a fall. Well I mean she was getting on.
MK: So I went up to there and the next I heard that George had her
KC: Yes, they took her.
MK: And I didn't really know a lot after that.
KC: See, if I hadn't been ill she wouldn't have gone up there. I would never let her gone up there, no, you see. See 'cos I'd looked after them all those years, even coming backways and forwards to railway.
PR: When were you working on the railway, Katie?
KC: Well, I was working on the railway, I started on the railway in 1953 and I continued backwards and forwards because every time I finished my duty I had to come to Sele Road to look after them.
PR: And where was the actual work? Here in Hertford or away?
KC: No, it was at Hertford, Hertford East and then I got transferred to Broxbourne on tickets there.
MK: And so everyday before she went to work, depending on
KC: What shift I was on
MK: Or she would come after she finished work if she was on 'earlies.'
KC: And then when I see that they're all right and done what I got to do for them, and that I used to say to the lady next door, “Well I'll be going home now to Harlow.” She said, “Well, don't worry. I'll see that they're all right.” But as I say, she had a lovely neighbour. Oh, they did. Now the other side, we had an elderly couple, Catchpoles.
MK: They were lovely people. I remember them.
KC: They were, but he went funny, didn't he, poor old devil.
PR: When you were smaller, did you hear, I should think they'd finished by the time you were older. Did you hear about the fights in Railway Street that people talk about?
KC: The fights?
PR: Yeah, on Saturday nights. It's people older than you.
KC: I never heard anything.
PR: Like Ruby Henry. How they used to get the fire engine down to hose down people after they'd had a set piece fight. So they'd agree one Saturday, there'd be another little battle the next.
KC: No, we never had none of that when we went up the pub, the Black Swan, did we? We used to all go up there and we have a lovely evening and then we'd dance at Christmas round the old maypole there (you) are. We all went up there, had a grand time. We didn't have any fights, we didn't.
PR: You didn't see any?
KC: No, we never see any. There you are. Everybody enjoyed theirself, isn't it?
PR: Well, I think they were enjoying themselves 'avin' their fights 'cos it used to be planned, apparently.
(Laughter).
End of Side A
Side B
MK: I was up Horns Mill, l can't really remember why
PR: Let's unclip that because now I've turned Malcolm's one off 'cos it goes in fits and starts. That's it. We can pass that thing, we can pass that across.
MK: I can't remember why but I was up at Horns Mill, because obviously not a lot of the family lived up there. And I was up there for some reason, I can't say what, but I remember that Reg and Skim had a disagreement. I can't remember what it was about.
KC: Oh, we used to have an old Alsatian dog, oh, it's lovely, wasn't it, Ospey Bum. He was German and everybody up Horns Mill, he used to go that side of the road when I was taking it out. They was frightened of it and I used to say he won't hurt you, no. And then we used to come home from school, he used to sit up the window. My mother used to say, “Here they come,” used to, “Hats off.” This dog would take all our hats off when we come home from school and give them to my mother.
MK: I don't know why Reg and Skim had this disagreement. They did have a, 'cos the next thing I knew was I thought there's me Uncle Reg and there's me Uncle Skim and they was out like on the village green, like at Horns Mill, fists up like old time boxers, as if they was going to have a punch up. And only being a little slip of a lad, I couldn't quite understand.
KC: I didn't hear that.
MK: Yeah, they was up on the green up at Brickendon Lane. There's a green at the end where it, only a small green and some sort of argument. This is when you were living at Harlow. I wasn't that old. I couldn't understand it because obviously I was up there to visit them, to visit people up there. And I thought, “Oh, there's me Uncle Rag and there's me Uncle Skim.” And I can remember me dad was there. And I can remember him saying to me, “Come away,” he said, “They're having an argument.” And I don't know what they was arguing about.
It was all forgot about in about 10 minutes, but for 10 minutes it looked quite as if it could be, you know, nasty. But after a few minutes it was all forgot about and I suppose it was just brothers having a, like you do have, all families do, and that was you know. I still don't know to this day why they was arguing. But I remember seeing them on the green and I thought it very comical you know, thinking of old days when people with their hands up like old time boxers, and I did laugh, you know. My dad said, “Come away.” “Come away,” he said, “They're having an argument.
And I remember saying to him, “Well stop them, stop them, don't want them fighting.”
And well, basically said, you know, “We'll keep out of it. It's nothing to do with us.” So we did.
PR: You saw quite a bit of your dad, did you, after he left your family?
MK: Yeah, my dad worked for Skim. He was a plasterer under Skim, as I say, like Billy Wilson and like a lot of them and they all worked for him. And I see a lot of me dad. And he lived up and worked at the fish shop at Sele Farm for some time and then he move away to Welwyn. In fact I did have him staying with us at 13, Sele Road for some time, 'cos he had nowhere to go. And then he moved on and I haven't seen him since. I hope he's still alive. I mean, you know, but I don't know and I just hope he is, you know. And then the last I saw of him he was doing some work at Digswell for a bloke up there, big property, you know. But then someone said to me, he's living at Welwyn. But I've not heard nothing since, you know.
PR: Oh, so, nearly gone 'Laine?
(Laughter from KC)
Elaine: I can't believe what I just heard.
(More laughter from KC.)
(Something unintelligible from Elaine.
Something about the microphone from PR.
Laughter from KC.
MK: No, I mean Sele Road. I mean, as you say there was Catchpoles, wasn't there. There was Girl Gamer. I only knew her as Girl Gamer. I didn't know her first name. Oh, there was some nice people up there. There was the two old sisters
KC: well, before we had the Irish, we had Mr. and Mrs. Wheatcroft. He worked at County Hall. They were nice people. Yes, they was ever so nice.
MK: Catchpoles were nice. I liked them.
KC: Sele Road was a posh area then when we moved up there.
PR: Yeah, hedges.
KC: Isn't now, well, gone down the hill.
PR: It's very snooty down here.
MK: No, it's funny. It's daft. It was considered a sort of upper class sort of area.
KC: It was. It was a posh area
MK: As I say, old Joe told me that these houses were built by Ekins and they only cost £600 each to build. He was telling me one day up there. I was talking to him.
PR: That was quite a big
MK: Big money in them days, yes, you know, 1920. I think he said they was built about 1920.
PR: Anyway I'm sorry to be in the way. I'm going to shoot off now because I've got to go on
(Then followed a short conversation with Elaine whose contribution cannot be adequately heard, possibly concerning bookies' runners. Elaine's grandmother lived at 21, Bull Plain, with Johnsons next door, number 19. This seemed to result in Peter getting ideas for another recording, talking to Joe about Bull Plain. He was in any case going on to the O'Smotherleys after this recording.)