Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Crane, Rosie (O1994.7) |
| Interviewee | Rosie Crane (RC), Flo Gibbins (FG) (maiden name Everett) |
| Interviewer | Peter Ruffles (PR) |
| Date | 18/02/1994 |
| Transcriber by | Tape 1 Len Bowyer Tape 2 Jean Riddell updated Marilyn Taylor 2016 |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O 1994.7
Interviewee: Rosie Crane (RC), Flo Gibbins (FG) (maiden name Everett)
Interviewed at the home of Mrs. Rose Crane, 2 Hutton Close, Sele Farm, Hertford. Mrs. Gibbins lives nearby at no. 8.
Date: 18th Feb 1994
Interviewers: Peter Ruffles (PR)
Transcriber: Tape 1 Len Bowyer Tape 2 Jean Riddell updated Marilyn Taylor 2016
This recording was started on the end of another tape and then continued on a whole tape which caused some confusion thinking it was two recordings. It was in fact one recording which starts with a discussion about a new carpet not transcribed. Also not transcribed are all the times the ladies say yes to agree with one another!
PR: The museum started this Oral History, spoken bits and pieces, to get a bit of colour to what you find in the history books, odd little stories, dates don't matter, hard facts don't matter; till it in and make it a little bit as people. There's a thing for you to tick at the end to say what we can use it for - that depends what you talk about 'Cos if you give me too much murkie stuff You might say not the bit about ....
RC: Rub that bit out
PR: You know a few bits of personal bits about date of birth stuff and where you lived as a child - and that sort of thing. And then what they do is to listen to natter and then they pull out a sort of summary of bits. Perhaps we might mention St. Andrew Street. They'll say "Talked about shops in St. Andrew Street or might mentioned The Folly or something like that. And then later - anyone say fifty years later, anyone wanting to know what St. Andrew St. was like. It's all there.
FG: Yer! That the photo I wanted to show yer. That's in Coleman's Yard. See the cobble stones and there was houses both sides.
PR: I wonder what event that was? With all their hats on?
FG: It was our wedding. That was my mother -and my father
PR: I was looking at all the hats
FG: and all the aunts and uncles - And that was in Coleman's Yard. Well Oaker's Buildings as they called it afterwards.
RC: It's marvellous isn't it.
PR: We'll come on to that. What I'll do is get the tape under way - I'll just have to say a little bit about where we are. - an introduction, I think I must borrow your mic. and say my little piece into the microphone.
FG: Yer, I've got a snap of me mum but haven't any big photos.
PR: It's still Friday 18th February 1994, night has fallen and I'm in the home of Miss Rosie Crane. No 2 Hutton Close; sitting with her neighbour I always call Mrs. Flo Gibbins at No.8 who have known each other all their lives. And lived quite close to each other once or twice and now live next door.
RC: Right next door
PR: What we've come to do is. First of all we were originally hoping to talk to Rosie about – don't mind me calling you Rosie do you?
RC: No of course not.
PR: We were going to talk about St Andrew's School earlier, but what I think we might do is to touch on a bit of St Andrew's School but we are interested very much in the Crane family that have been in Hertford for quite a few years and well spread all over. So we will talk about that sort of thing. We are actually coming down the age range this evening because today I've been talking to two people who were born in City Street, before you were born, Mrs Ruby Henry up in Campfield Road. Then Violet Miles who lived in St. Andrew's Street. They are in their nineties both born in City Street.
RC: I've never heard of City Street.
PR: That was right in the Bircherley Green
RC: Oh, Yes
PR: There was a pub there called the City Arms . That's where they were both born, more or less the same time. Mrs Henry first and Violet a bit later. So we are doing people that have known the town for a nice long time. Now I'm going to clip up Rosie again as I had taken the mic to do the introduction. Not many people know this but every six weeks I sleep in Flo's bed. That's a well kept secret.
FG: Laughter It's not mine but came out of my house. You didn't know that Rosie.
PR: Because I've got three beds at home, and I do a fortnight in each and so every six weeks I -
FG: How come?
PR: When all the others moved away and I was left in an empty house. I found you had one and came and fetched it. That's in the little bed room, just over the front door.
FG: He gave me a beautiful bouquet
PR: I used to do things properly in the old days.
FG: I was going to leave it in the house anyway. I hadn't got room going into a one bedroomed flat.
PR: Now this is the first lady we've interviewed whose bed I sleep in on a regular basis.
(laughter)
PR: Now. Shall we go through where you were each born? Let's have FG start. Where were you born then FG?
FG: In Coleman's Yard. In St Andrew Street --which was later Oaker's Buildings.
PR: I knew that but I had to get you to say it. Now let us look at your family - Where did you fit into the family situation
FG: I was the first one The eldest of three.
PR: And after you was, who came next?
FG: Ellie - and then Dorothy
PR: Did they stay in Hertford?
FG: Yes they are still in Hertford. There were four years between each of us.
PR: That was good family planning!
FG: Dot was 72 in January, Edie would have been 77. No, Dot is 73 in January, Ede will be 77 in March and I shall be 81 in April
RC: I thought your birthday was tomorrow-I've got 20th on the brain-must be somebody else.
PR: Your Ma and Pa Were they Hertford people?
FG: Yes They were Hertford people. My mother was a Hubber from Ware. Well her father lived at Ware but she lived down the old Green with her Gran. She had a step mother that she didn't get on with and so she made a home with in old granny Carpenter in the Green. We used to call it down the Green. Now Bircherley Court. My father, I don't know where he lived before - I suppose he must have lived in Coleman's Yard. He was born in Hertford.
PR: He was born there probably.
FG: Yes!
PR: Your mum - what would have been the name of the person that she lived with – the surname? Not Haggar??
FG: No, Granny Carpenter.
PR: We could look her up on the census.
FG: She lived down by the river
PR: River Street I think was down there.
FG: Nearly opposite old er - what was the man - The Ragged School - Sunday School
RC: Dixon
PR: That's interesting, Ruby Henry said that she used to go to the Salvation Army over Copping's – where Coppin's or the Coop shop, where Ilott's is now; and then I think her mother took her away from the Sally Army and sent her to Dixon's. She didn't like that at all. No tambourines.
FG: They called that the Ragged School
PR: Was that where the Salvation Army went to?
FG: I don't think it was Salvation Army - it was Mr. Dixon that ran that (Salvation Army moved there after Dixon)
PR: Because the Salvation Army moved into the Green
FG: Yes I suppose it could be - it was over near where Bircherley Court is now
PR: I couldn't sort of grasp it when Mrs. Henry was telling me. So this was a well known chap called Dixon. (Town Mission?)
FG: Sunday School they used to call it.
PR: Did she tell you any stories about the Green - what it was like?
FG: No she just used to say that this step mother never liked her - so she made a home with her Gran in the Green. She always used to say that Gran said "Put yer stall out in the sun, one silly bugger gone, another one will come." She was in service-they were all in service then.
PR: It got very rough down there with all the -
FG: Oh yer! Well there was a murder in the Diamond Yard. A pub called the Diamond (sc. T-Mobile, 2012), opposite Wren's the bakers (sc. corner opp. Barclays Bank)
PR: What really happen - what kind of murder was that? (Mercie Nicholls, 1899)
FG: I don't really know. It might have been a stabbing - must have been a fight
RC: There were always fights on down there. During the war there was always fights down there.
PR: People keep mentioning this murder in the Diamond but don't seem to know much about it - you can't remember the story?
FG: No!
PR: There were lots of pubs - there were four pubs on the Green itself. This one called the City Arms, another one called the Leather Bottle. They were all before your time.
FG: Don't remember that
PR: One called the Butcher's Arms, Butchery Green. That was well back. Your mother would - gone by the time you were on the scene. That would have been Victorian times. But they all talk about the fighting in Railway Street.
FG: I can remember that. On Saturday nights it used to be awful down there; they reckoned that as soon as the pubs turned out they started fighting In Railway Street. ..Then it was a fist to fist fight, you never had knifes - I suppose you must have had with the Diamond if one went down the one left standing up was the winner.
PR: And came back next week to continue
FG: Probably, I mean we were only children then wasn't we. We more or less learnt them from our mother and father.
PR: Yes the stories are told. So Rosie - tell us about the way you began and the Crane Family then.
RC: I was born in Hartham Lane where the railway
FG: Whereabouts in Hartham Lane? 'Cos I moved to Hartham Lane
RC: Well you were near the pub next door to the pub (PR- The Unicorn). Then there was a row of houses and then Biltons lived on the comer -- They were right the way round and the railway runs across -- that's where we used to get into Hartham. We were born there. Then there was Bilton's, Granny Newell and then Bush's, Bradshaw's and Wright's. Then there were the Cranes on the comer - that's were we lived. That was before we moved up into Hertingfordbury Road, and that is where we went to Cowbridge School from there. Nora said she don't remember that but I said she must have come to Cowbridge School and then we moved up to Hertingtordbury Road and ended up at St. Andrew's School.
FG: I was was sent to St. Andrew's School with Cowbridge just up the road.
PR: You went to St. Andrew's School?
RC: Did you go to St. Andrew's School?
FG: Yes I started at St Andrew's School. I think what happen there was Kit and Effie Dearman used to live down that yard, Victoria (Place). They all went there - and we just followed on them. They used to come and fetch me and take me to school and when Dot was eleven the new rule had come in that she had to go to a girl's school; the boys to Cowper's School. It was mixed when we went and boys and girls.
PR: She caught the change. Nothing stays in education the same. So let's have the order of the Crane family then, Rose -
FG: Nine of you wasn't there?
RC: I've got to go through ten people - Arthur was the eldest, Albert came next, he was the butcher at Earl's all those years. It's his wife that lives above me (Aggie). Albert and then came Florrie she was next and then came Bill, Fred, then Mabel; then me then Sid; and Nora and Winn. There's three of us living, there's me, Nora and Winn.
PR: So you are quite well down the line really?
RC: Yes well I'm 83, Nora will be 80 in November and Winn is 77 now. So I've lived the longest. Me mum was 81.
PR: I thought she had got to 80?
RC: She was coming into her 82nd birthday when she died in March; 1958 I think that was.
PR: After bringing up that big family she still made very old bones. In those days people didn't live as long as people do now.
RC: We had good old days really - she was a good old mum.
PR: She used to work at her husband's, the butcher?
RC: She would go out to work ,she wanted to get out as well as looking after us kids. Of course we all had to look after each other and as a baby was born we had to help push him in the pram because she would get down in the cellar making the sausages down there and scrubbing the steps down there 'till Albert went in one day and he said "You're not doing this any more mum." He got her away in the end. She just loved going down there , Husband thought the world of her and -
PR: She was going down there when she was quite old?
RC: You could not stop her. She just wanted to keep on working and working. It was hard work for our mums - those days. At Hertingfordbury Road we had the cellar downstairs. And there was the old mangle outside - turning the old mangle, no washing machines. All on the kitchen table; no bath rooms. Half a bar of soap. We were all kept clean. I can remember having a bath, in a tin bath, every Friday night. In those times to give you medicine, I can always remember it, we always had a dose of brimstone treacle it was called to keep your tummy going. All had a spoon of that every Friday. We were all kept clean - it was really nice.
PR: Even things like heating wouldn’t be a problem.
FG: Coal fire and an oven. Everything was done in the oven, all the saucepans were on top. No gas there, it was all the fire. Fires in the bedroom if you weren't well. I can remember when three of us had mumps and we were all upstairs in the bedroom sitting by the fire -
PR: What I've got to do is to keep watching the tape. We have to keep thinking of the people who are going to listen to this not realising what it is like here today. This will be historic in time. So let's just think what's the tidiest way of doing it. Let's stick with the Crane's; Hartham Lane just round the comer to the Unicorn. All of you born there or did some of you ?
RC: Oh Yes, we must all have been born there.
PR: How big was that house then? The Hartham Lane one?
RC: Well I'd call it a cottage.
FG: Two up and two down?
RC: We were very crammed. I should say we had a kitchen and a front room and perhaps three bedrooms, that's all
FG: If you lived there you would have had a bedroom over the passage. 'Cos Wrights lived in there. Wrights were the only house that had the passage.
PR: So you had a little bit of extra room.
RC: It's hard to remember really. What I can remember, I liked Hartham Lane
PR: Very near the town centre
RC: And we were near the school
PR: You must have all fitted in top to tail. How did you sleep'?
RC: I don't remember about that one. I remember how we slept at Hertingfordbury Road.
PR: Hertingfordbury Road was number ---
RC: We were number 42.
PR: That was a much bigger house.
RC: Oh yes, we had four bedrooms, a cellar and quite a nice front room; a kitchen and quite a big back yard, but the loo was at the top of the yard. No loo inside.
PR: Three story wasn't it?
RC: The Cellar had two rooms. Me mum's copper was in the corner, in one of them. So we went up and down doing the washing down there; and the old coal fire.
PR: She could have gone up into the first - the ground floor and then two above that.
RC: Yes, two flights of stairs
PR: You could spread out a bit
RC: Yes there was us girls. There were two beds in that room-so perhaps four of us were sleeping in that room, that's how we had to do it. There were five girls and five boys then. We managed
PR: All that preparing of food
RC: Yer! And yet our mums made all the old suet puddings and everything; we were really well fed; she was a good old mum; all the old fashioned food, not that they buy now.
PR: No fish fingers!
RC: Didn't know them. Didn't know anything about that. All home made stuff.
PR: Was there a sort of routine - what to expect on a Monday and on a Tuesday?
RC: No, we took what comes. We couldn't choose what we wanted. Mother just cooked. If you didn't want it you'd go without. I know when my brother Albert – I remember he wore the gaiters and the boots at his butchers and he would come home for breakfast and us girls had to clean his boots and his gaiters while he had his breakfast and went back to work again. I used to tell Aggie that. She said your mother spoilt him. I said, "My mother spoilt all her sons. More than she did her girls." It was us girls that had to wait on the boys.
PR: Marvellous!
RC: I thought that it was a bit of a cheek but we had to do it.
PR: After – I remember your ma living in Sele Road. I remember the houses
RC: Number 34, Sele Road.
PR: Right down the end
RC: The hospital was at the bottom. We were at the top first, Peter.
PR: I didn’t know that
RC: We moved up into 34 and it led down to the hospital and then me brother Fred was taken in to hospital and we thought he was getting on fine unfortunately he died at 30 and me mum didn’t fancy… she could see him at the hospital.
PR: Yes......
RC: at the hospital so we decided to move further down into the cul-de-sac and thas when we moved after Fred died.
PR: Why did you move out of the big house in Hertingfordbury Road?
RC: Well because there was more covienience , thebathroom and all that you see.
PR: Yes more modern
RC: Which we had never had you see so we moved..
PR: So you had gone to a smaller “Squashed up a bit” suppose some had left home by then
RC: Well in Sele Road it was a nice house, it had a sitting room which was a nice big room
END OF TAPE ONE
TAPE TWO
This tape continues the interview from the previous one, there seems to have been a gap before it was realised the first tape had run out so the conversation is not continuous. This starts with talk about Mrs Ruby Henry
.
SIDE ONE
PR: Before she married, she married when she was 17 and she was, you may remember her mother cause I remember her mother Mrs Watts.
FG: Oh used to have the fish shop?
PR: Yes
FG: Yes that’s right, dirty old fish shop, down Railway Street next to…
RC: Yes oh my goodness
PR: Where was it then?
RC: By the Diamond on the right had side there was like a yard, and there was all these houses up that little old yard.
FG: Yes Watts
PR: I still can’t think
All talk at once
PR: On the corner, on the actual corner into ….
FG and RC: Yes yes
PR: take me by the hand and walk me to this chip shop cause I can’t picture where it can be then, did you turn into the Green a bit? Or…
RC: No you I don’t think you turned into The Green.
PR: The Diamond on one corner and Wrens on the other
FG: Wrens was on the other side but the yard we are talking about is on the same side as the pub is now on that side.
PR: What The Duncombe?
FG: You know where the Quakers is
PR: Yes
FG: Well it was on that side. That’s where it is.
PR: Ah I was thinking much nearer The Diamond, down beyond Molly Warners
FG: That’s right yes thats right that’s where the yard was, it was filthy, I wouldn't go there for fish and chips. Dodson's was there that was a good fish and chip shop.
PR: You said they had two at one time, two fish and chip shops,
RC: Yes that one and Tovells' wasn’t it
FG: Tovells that’s right they were Salvationists weren’t they
PR: Oh were they? Yes, Watts that’s where they, that’s where she started then she got married and she was 17 then went on to have four children and only one is alive still of the four children. George Henry died in the summer.
FG: Oh yes he married that um
PR: Nellie Roberts
FG: That’s it George Henry, well my granddaughter married the son of him
PR: Oh
FG: They live at Bengeo, Henry that’s my granddaughter, no not my granddaughter my niece Jack Gibbins’ girl
PR: yes George had a happy kind of smile right that’s something cleared up, this fish shop, yes Watts and the her mother came to live on the Campfield Road estate
FG: That’s right yes
PR: Mrs Watts and Leslie Wildman at school that was her grandson. So we have got you up in Sele Road, who was living in Sele Road? How long did you stay at home?
RC: Well actually I didn’t live at home very long with me Mum, I went to work for my cousin who had the café in Mead Lane, that was my dads brother you see, I had to go and live with them because of opening up the shop.
PR: Right
RC: Early you see, which, they had the shop at the house first, they had the downstairs room as a shop, then the shop round the corner, the café, they had it from, the took over the pub at Railway Street, and then they died and my uncle bought the shop. So you see I had to go and work round the shop so therefore I lived with my cousins for 26 years. But of course I was backwards and forwards to me Mum you see.
PR: Yes yes based at the other….
RC: Yes that’s right. By then you see most of them were getting married. So there weren’t many left down the cul de sac.
FC: But Rose didn’t you move up Sele Road, wasn’t you up the cul de sac? Cause I moved to no 30
RC: Yes that’s were we are, we are talking about
FG: you were up the cul de sac
RC: We were no 34 first and then we moved down into the cul de sac
FG: That right yes cause I moved up there, I was in no 30. Old Mrs. Wright lived next door to me, she is at Hornsmill now.
PR: Yes she still walks all the way to Hornsmill
FG: I know she does yes.
RC: I was trying to think of the name of the other people that lived the other side of us, very nice family they were, I can’t think of their name now, not Harrison no
PR: Hayter’s, the Hayter’s no they weren’t next to you.
RC: No the Hayter’s were further up
PR: The Hayter’s the Wench’s Mrs ….
RC: I am trying to think of that, the people who lived next door to us, very nice family they were. One was schoolteacher, I believe he was a policeman, retired policeman, can’t remember.
PR: I can’t think now, I remember the Read’s came
RC: Read yes
PR: Towards the end of your ….
RC: They’re in the house now that I am talking about, I can’t think of his name now,
FG: cause there was the Bailey’s up there wasn’t there, The Bailey’s lived next door to me, Hills, the Hill’s
PR: very nice road Sele Road really
RC: Oh it was
FG: Well that was sort of high class when that was built
RC: Oh yes it was
FG: You know it was posh to us
PR: Privet hedges and…
RC: It’s a lot different now though
PR: Its still better than a lot of places
FG: It was nice, I liked it up there, it was quite nice.
PR: I think it was better when they kept the privet hedges and trees
FG: We wasn’t allowed to touch those hedges, when I was up there, we wasn’t allowed to touch the hedges
PR: No
FG: Wasn’t allowed to take the hedges down
RC: No no
FG: Had to keep them up too.
RC: they were quite strict weren’t they
FG: yes they were
PR: Professional people up there Stan Day on the corner,
RC: yes that’s right
PR: Mr Ilotts
RC: Ilotts yes
PR: worked for Harry Harry the watch shop and Hayters and Wenches and oh the Dartons were…
Both ladies : On the corner yes
FG: and then there was the Wheatcrofts’s was up there at one time
RC: Mrs Wheatcroft lived next door to us at no 34
FG: Did I go in Wheatcroft’s house? No 30? Was she number 30
RC: either next door or the next door but one.
FG: Yes I think we went in Wheatcroft’s house, ah Mrs ………yes but there was another family in there since Mrs Wheatcroft left.
PR: Right so that’s Sele Road
FG: So we followed each other really Rose, both down Hartham Lane, both in Sele Road
RC: Yes
FC: both up here, strange init!
PR: Yes so now we had better get on to school hadn’t we…lets do Cowbridge first.
FG: Can’t remember much about Cowbridge at all.
PR: Well that would have been straight up the lane to you and across the road into Dimsdale Street
FG: Dimsdale Street that’s right yes
PR: That was an all age school or only……. How long would you have stayed if you had stayed longer?
FG: I just cannot remember
RC: 14 was the time I left
FG: That’s was a mixed school wasn’t it or was it only a girls school.
RC: That was only a girls school no it wasn’t a mixed school
PR: They are about to pull that down they are going to…… or some of it and put some houses there, there is a planning application. You can see, on the bricks at Cowbridge School at round about children’s height where all the slate pencils have been sharpened ..
RC: Oh can you
PR: Grooves in the bricks where pencils for writing on the slates (were sharpened) that must have been Victorian times. Then you went to St. Andrew's School after you moved to Hertingfordbury Road.
RC: Yes when I was 14.
PR: Who was the head at the time you were there?
RC: Miss Rutter, Polly Rutter.
FG: She wasn’t the head she was a teacher.
RC: No she might not have been the head,
FG: Miss Miller was above her, we had Miss Miller, Miss Hornby, don’t you remember Miss Miller?
RC: Who?
FG: We used to call her Dusty Miller
RC: No I can’t
FG: Miss Turnball was under Miller to start
RC: I remember Polly Rutter and Miss Hornby
FG: She was a teacher Miss Rutter wasn’t she
RC: and Miss Smith
FG: She was a very strict but she was a good teacher (Miss Rutter). You couldn’t get no higher than her class. I was in Pollys class. Miss Hornby
RC: She was nice Miss Hornby
PR: Miss Turnball was…
FG: She is a relation to you isn’t she?
PR: No everyone thinks she is, but like you two, they lived next door, they had lived next door to my grandad over the road, then when our houses were being built, grandad bought the first one and the Turnbull’s bought the second. They all moved over together but no relation.
FG: I see, she used to have Eczema on her hands.
PR: She had TB when she was 9, they sent her off to Margate on a convalesce to see if it would go and it didn’t then she had her fingersamputated.
FG: Did she oh lor.
PR: Leaving only the thumb on that hand. That was Tuberculosis
FG: Good lor, cause sometimes she used to have it done up and another time it would be open.
PR: A lot of parents used to think she shouldn’t be teaching
FG: No I think I remeber my mother saying that yes
PR: Because of the infection. She was made head of the infants in 1899
FG: Was she
PR: She stayed and then later she was headmistress they called or 'governess' until 1940. So she would have been there when you were there but she may not have actually taught that class. Miss Miller was head of the whole school before Miss Turnball.
RC: Yes I remember Miss Miller
PR: lets………you can remember Miss Hornby
Both ladies: She was nice, she was ever so nice
FG: Now she lived further along Hertingfordbury Road.
RC: Somewhere near Warehams Lane
FG: What is Warehams Lane?
RC: No further along, you know where the garage is now
FG: Yes
RC: Along there you went down a little alleyway
FG: Yes that’s right there were 4 houses down there
RC: She invited me up there one day, it was nice
PR: Frogs Hall Cottages. Used to be called Frogs Hall.
RC: Very nice down there
FG: St. Andrew's School we always used to go in the hayfields, didn’t we. We always used to have a watsname in the hayfields. Was that Scales’? Scales field was it?
RC: Don’t know, can’t remember that.
FG: We all used to go down there for a afternoons. Remember at St Andrews School every Wednesday through Lent we went down St Andrews Church.
RC: Pipe down, pipe down, pipe down
FG: Every Wednesday for six weeks, I can remember that, and the last day of church, we used to go round the church and they gave us a palm in the shape of a cross.
RC: That’s right yes.
PR: Stronger links with the church than there are now.
Both ladies: Very much oh yes
PR: Edie Hornby would have had a pretty big class then.
RC: I think she had a pretty big infants class yes I am sure she did.
FG: Then Miss Roe was the next, Miss Roe she used to shout, used to frigheten the life out of us!
PR: Did you learn on a slate or pen and paper.
Both ladies No, no slateswe had a book.
RC: Pens or pencils or whatever they may be, ink pot weren’t it and a pen.
FG: and the only script, when I left school we had only just begun to join the letters up into writing. We used to print.
RC: Yes there was a lot of printing. Used to call it script.
FG: I still think of it now when I am writing.
Both ladies talk at once about writing
FG: I think a lot of people write letters like that now
PR: It really came in properly after the war. Marion Richardson's unless learned Italic style. When I went there after the war we had Miss Hornby just in her last few months I think. But we started off on slates because there was a shortage of paper. You had a better start than we did. Coal fires, you didn’t have any milk I suppose?
RC: Nothing like that no , we didn’t have any school dinners, it was home and then back again wasn’t it. Perhaps around 12 and back at 2 wasn’t it
FG: That’s right yes
PR: No homework, you didn’t have homework
Ladies NO!!
FG: Had to stay in at playtime and do a sort of, what do you call it, sort of essay “I must not do this, I must not do that” lines, that’s right
RC: You had to stop in at playtimes and sometimes after school. I remember Kit Dearman’s mother going up after Miss Roe, about Kit in school, after school, she told Miss Roe that she would pull her nose
PR: One of the things I have prevailed upon my mother was to give old Mrs Dearman a couple of oil lamps we had in the cellar. Beacause that Victorian lady, she still had oil lamps no gas or electricity. They were all wrapped up in brown paper but I knew they were in our celler, they were my grandmothers, I remember going home and actually saying Mrs Dearman could actually use them. Also it was only a few years later I thought Oh I shouldn’t have done that cause they were so light, but once you have given them away you can’t ask for them back!.
FG: She is on here
PR: Oh is she
FG: Aunt Lizzie
Flo produced a photograph,
PR: Desmond Chappell he was married to …………
FG: Yes that’s aunt Lizzie that one
PR: Oh that one, yes I can….that face is familiar.
FG: Aunt Lizzie she was in service with Squires’ you know the three brothers the Squires’ used to have a little haberdashery shop in St. Andrew St. She was housekeeper there Aunt Lizzie was … (No 6)
PR: Mrs Dearman, I mean she looked very much like that when she was getting……
FG: Yes that’s her husband Uncle Jack we used to call him. Remember that one old Sid Taylor used to come here with muffins and winkles
RC: Yes winkles
FG: He was my godfather
PR: Yes there is a lot of long faces.
FG: Yes all long faces, I couldn’t make out who this one was but we have come to the conclusion that must have been old Granny Carpenter that my mother made her home with.
PR: Oh Rosie this is a treat
RC: yes its lovely
PR: Yes he was, was it Noah or Amos, one of those two names
RC: It could have been Amos I imagine yes
PR: I believe it was now, Amos, yes Amos I am sure
Transcribers note: Possibly Noah John Amos Dearman born 1879 died 1955.
PR: Yes that’s an oil lamp there
FG: Oh yes, they were lovely houses down there.
PR: Yes
FG: Ever so roomy
PR: Yes well that’s still there, but that was a barn, it wasn’t built as a house it was built as a barn.
FG: Was it?
PR: Covereted into ……..
FG: Oh yes
PR: An ancient barn, the last one of the old ones left in St Andrew Street.
Transcribers Note: Victoria Place now alongside the entrance to the car park
FG: I used to spend a lot of time down there always went down Colemans yard when I went to St Andrews School, cause I went to school the Burtons and the Clarks and. remember old Joe Clark and the Burtons old Bert and the Fosters I used to go back down there a lot and play with them.
The phone rings and Rosie goes to answer it.
FG: Tell them you are recording so you can’t stop long.
Rosie on phone in background
PR: That will be lovely to get a copy done, have you had a copy made?
FG: No my daughter wanted to take it back to hastings….er no Parkstone with her she has just come from Australia my daughter, they couldn’t settle out there so they have come back. She said there is somebody that processes there in there………….
PR: The place I will take it is Ware, in Ware High Street.
FG: You are welcome to take it if you want it
PR: Shall I take it home then?
FG: Yes um, I will pay for it.
PR: Well no we can do that on the strength of you know, this recording and then you could, tell you what, I will get one for you and then get another one done we can put in with this recording
FG: Yes um
PR: and then you ca………….
FG: These are my cousin’s, the Bennets heres the Dearmans, the others are Bulleys from Hertford Heath. The last one died, she was buried last Wednesday week. Lizzie Bulley
PR: Mrs.Miles was a Bulley
FG: That’s right yes she was a Bulley I don’t know………..
RC: That’s not very good news, Carol’s son has been rushed to hospital, was taken ill last night, had pains in his tummy today and the got the ambulance there and they don’t know what it is, they have no idea. Could be Gall stones, could be appendix but he is on a drip.
PR: Well they’ll, he is only young so……………..
RC: She will ring me in the morning
FG: Yes you are more than welcome to…
PR: I am going to get a copy of that photo, that will be lovely
RC: Yes
PR: Mrs. Dearman I can’t get over how similar she looked when she was in her…………your age sort of thing
FG: Yes yes Aunt Emmie that’s Mrs Cotman they lived up George Street , Aunt Ginnie she married old Harry MardIe after… she was married to this one but he died it was sad, and Aunt Edna where’s Aunt Lizzie……….Aunt Lizzie who worked for Squires and this is another Bulley.
PR: Are you related to the Mrs Miles Bulley family?
FG: I wouldn’t say so I don’t know, I shouldn’t think so
PR: No because they didn’t have the same kind of family tree…
FG: No
PR: Now I was talking to Eddie Roche this afternoon
FG: He went to school with Alan
PR: Yes because Ethel worked in Roche’s for years didn’t she Ethel Harrar
FG Ether Dearman that’s right yes
PR: who became Haggar
FG: Yes she did she married my mothers half brother
PR: Oh Jack
FG: Jack yes he got burnt, yes he fell on the fire
PR: Was that after she died, it was wasn’t it?
FG: Yes
PR: I think Ethel had died first
FG: Yes that’s right
PR: She used to run beetle drives and things for church
FG: Oh yes they were church and she used to play the piano
PR: and take us up to the bluebell woods Desmond and I, one year we came up here to Panshanger
FG: Oh yes
PR: Tom and Desmond and Colin Chappell & Margaret running through the woods one of us stepped into a wasps' nest and those following behind ran through all the wasps…
FG: OOOOOOOOOHHHHH
PR: She had to bring us all home covered in stings.
FG: They were a very good living family the Dearmans, they were very, what can I say, they didn’t mix a lot you know they were good.
PR: Davies Street, Mrs Chappell
FG: Yes Kit that right
PR: Then 9 Cecil Rd. He her husband had died now?
FG: No he’s up the Dell, he lives up the Dell.
PR: Oh his is up there now is he?
FG: I saw him at the Mayors tea party
PR: Oh Yes
FG: Yes he was at the Mayor’s tea party.
PR: Whats his name?
FG: Arthur.
PR: Arthur that’s right I haven’t seen him for a couple of years.
FG: I was their bridesmaid, there was five of us, three Chappells and Ethel and me.
PR: Right well we have covered a lot fo ground haven’t we!
Ladies: How far have we got.
PR: We have got into school haven’t we, I think we are probably done with St Andrew’s school aren’t we
RC: I think going to St Andrew School can’t tell you any more about that.
FG: Ethel Dearman used to run Scales the butchers. There was Miss Martha, Miss Mariah and Miss Fanny. Three of them and Mr Norris worked in the………Henry Norris worked in the butchers he was a nephew. When Ethel left school at 14 Kit took it on. She used to call in every day, she used to go to Westropes' and Bates' and all the posh shops for 8d per week that was good money, we used to think that was good money then. When Kit left school, I took it, when I left school Ede took it but when Ede left school that was like a different generation.
PR: Yes
FG: She was at the girls school and no she wouldn’t take it on and by that time there was only Miss Fanny left.
PR: Yes she was an aunt
FG: Yes Miss Fanny and there used to be, in the desk, Miss Arkwell I think her name was she was in the desk..
PR: Yes cause all the butchers had that desk in the corner
FG: Yes yes
PR: Bonsers' on Old Cross had one. You got your meat and you paid for it ………..
FG: at the desk. I was talking to this lady……………..oh no that was when there was two brothers took it, what was their name, Allingham?
PR: Yes
FG: I was talking to her at the Mayors tea party, no the Christmas dinner. She was in a wheel chair. She was the Ethel Donaldson, married a Rist from the Folly.
PR: Yes I can’t remember
FG: All them years we were the errand girls for them.
PR: Yes what about the other shops? You said there were high class ones but you had a choice all over the town for everything didn’t you. There was a choice of grocers……..
Both ladies: Small and Burgess was very high class, they had a shop at the top of Fore Street.
FG: What was that one round where Cecil Copper is? Chittendens – ErnieCrane used to deliver
RC: That was my cousin it was about the only job he had. He used to deliver things on his bike.
PR: Where was that shop?
FG: Cecil Coopers, where East Herts Electrical sho is now in Honey Lane. That was a lovely high class shop there. Then ……
PR: What………..?
Ladies: Clothes .then Howard Roberts
PR: Yes but Howard Roberts was nearer to………
RC: In my younger days I went to work for………his name was Mr. Fortt he was the manager there, I went as a nursemaid there, to thier two children and didand do the housework there before I started working…………..then I went to work for Mrs. Deadman Ekins they had 2 sons, cause I left there to go and work for my cousins down in Mead Lane and that’s …………when I left there I went to Bridens. When they gave up the shop and I ended up at Bridens.
FG: Remember old Grattans' the shoe shop?
RC: Grattans shoe shop yes
FG: All the shoes hanging outside
PR: Where was that?
RC: In Maidenhead Street
FG: That was where Fine Fare used to be or just a bit further along
Transcribers note new Post Office 2016
All talk together
FG: You used to go up 4 steps to it didn’t you, very old fashioned shop it was. Old Mr. Joyce was the manager and. you could get a pair of shoes for 4/11d a good shoes for 4/11d.
PR: Was Woolworths was there at that time?
Trancribers note: F W Woolworth was there by 1936
RC: No we had Worlds stores that was a nice grocers shop. International on the other side, Home and Colonial further up where they used to pack the old butter. Pearks….
FG: they used to use the two boards (for the butter)
RC: There was Pearks further up on the corner….
FG: and the Co –Op
PR: Drury’s was there
FG: Drurys yes they were there a long time that was a lovely shopping street that one.
RC: Boots was on the corner where the jewellers shop is now (Hinds)
FG: Co-Op on the corner wasn’t there
RC: Pratts had it before the Co-Op most beautiful dolls prams and all that in there we used to go and look at them you know (Kings in 2016 corner of The Wash)
PR: Yes yes
FG: Lovely shop wasn’t it Pratts
RC: Oh yes
FG: Gorgeous
PR: There were little grocers shops all round the edge of the town as well.
Ladies Oh yes
PR: I mean on the The Folly there was…..
FG: The little stores on the corner there
PR: Port Val there were several
FG: Stood back, a little shop that stood back amongst the houses you know by Bridens, then there was one the up Byde Street on the corner there Cox’s
PR: Another up Elton Road
FG: Elton Road yes that right
Transcribers Note: Corner of Fanshawe Street now a private house
PR: The choice today its just Tesco and Waitrose.
FG: Yes it all the big stores now
RC: Another on Old Cross that was Bryant’s that was nice.
PR: You mentioned Bates being ………
Ladies High class that was oh yes.
FG: Coffee, they was always gridning coffee in there
PR: That was in Fore Street, keep forgetting to say where it is
Trancriber’s note: Bates was in the Egyptian house now a restaurant
Ladies: Fore Street that’s right
FG: Westrope’s was where Halifax is now, Westrope’s was, Lines…….
PR: Now where’s the Halifax…..
FG: In Market Place near Cecil Coopers as you turn in the corner there
RC: That was Westropes
PR: Howard Roberts…….
FG: That right yes
RC: Lovely old town wasn’t it, really lovely old town. It was a joy to go and get…….oh I’ll tell you what was in Maidenhead Street there was a shop that sold faggotts and pease pudding, you could go and take a basin at night and buy what you wanted, two or three penn'orth of pease pudding and some faggots.
FG: wasn’t that on Old Cross?
RC: No Maidenhead Street
FG: there was one on Old Cross the ***** shop went in after that.
RC: No I think this one was in Maidenhead Street
FG: Near the bridge, the pub that used to be The Bridge didn’t it
RC: Yes that’s right
FG: Before the war
RC: It was great going down there
FG: then they changed it to The Bridge Inn
PR: Yes ………..
FG: then The woolpack again
PR: All sorts of clothing
RC: Youngs the bakers
FG: Oh their buns!
End.of side A
Side B
RC: ………..Mum’s meat, I used to have tuppence and when the old bakers shop was at Old Cross, Mr Tyser used to have it, he lived in the villa’s didn’t he?
PR: Oh he was a baker was he?
RC: Yes he had the shop at Old Cross, I used to buy a penny shortbread there make my way to Botsfords and have a ha’penny licorice and a ha’penny nut ring and I used to think that was great……….continues to speak about what they could get for tuppence but Flo speaks over her
FG: they were quite nice them two … so was the two Miss Cuurrells……one was Miss Honey wasn’t she
PR: Flo Bunyan was……
RC: Yes Dimsdale Street
PR: So what did you just say when I was turning the tape over, where were we on Old Cross I think Tysers …
RC: Tysers yes
PR: so I always thought he was a gentleman of private means
RC: I am sure it was Tysers I am sure it was him yes Tyser the bakers trying to think who took over from them but I can’t remember.
Transcribers Note: It was taken over by Mr Arthur Saggers and later became WJ Dunn and finally Bridens.
FG: There was Ibbert's the milkshop at the top of Hartham Lane Ibberts.
RC: Yes yes
FG: then there was the Harts used to live up by the brewery, up by the library I keep saying brewery…..
RC: Harts yes they used to come round with the milk in a pail,
FG: Also Patemen’s in Hertingfordbury Road up that yard there, the Osmotherley’s lived up there.
RC: The Haydens, that’s where I used to go down take your jug for milk, it came out of the churn.
FG: Old Freddie Wackett he is still about, saw him on a bike the other day
RC: Fed Wackett yes they live down Port Vale now don’t they.
PR: Gladys yes
FG: She died
PR: We’ve covered the ground!
FG: There was old Archers' the second hand shop.
RC: That’s right yes
PR: Who else was living in your block where no 40 is.
RC: In Hertingfordbury Road?
PR: Hertingfordbury Road yes
FG: Ada Race then Warehams, Thomasons round the corner Walkers
PR: Right
RC: A little gateway Whittakers
PR: Oh Yeah, between the cottages and…….
RC: That’s right and then the first cottage was the Wacketts, old Mrs Wackett.
PR: My Grandad was born in no. 26 where Evelyn Walls lives now that’s where he was born in 1870
FG: Is she all right, don’t see much of her now. She used to come to the Evergreen but she don’t come now.
RC: No, she had one hip done and er she is wating to see a specialist now, cause Nora still goes down there She is really letting herself go, well what shall I say she’s lazy, she’s being lazy.
Nora was Roses sister
FG: She has never done any work, she has always had someone do her work
RC: She wants waiting on all………she has had a couple of husbands who se absolutely ruined her she just won’t do anything. She won’t get up till 11, she goes and sits up the hospital, she walks round there for about an hour.
FG: Does she …yes.
RC: But I don’t think she can….she is waiting to see the specialist
FG: At school I was in the same class as Sid your Sid. (Crane Rose’s brother)
RC: My Sid
FG: Your Sid, Cyril WaIls, George Thompson, Ernie Walker, Albie Ginn, all in the same class
RC: That’s right yes
PR: That must have been……..
FG: Doll Morris, and Alice Dolley.
PR: Some of those names are ones I heard my mother mention, I can’t think how old my Mum would be.
FG: She would be younger than me I think
Both Ladies: No I don’t think she was as old as us.
PR: Born in……..
FG: Cause she was Gwynneth George wasn’t she?
PR: Yes
FG: No I can’t remember Gwynneth George at school she must have been in…..
PR: Been younger
FG: I think she must have been about my Ian’s age 76, 77
PR: Yes she was 65 when she died.
FG: Old Les Bilton he was another one in my class
PR: You don’t remember, you wouldn’t remember my grandfather he died when my mum was 13 he worked at the Post Office I don’t suppose you remember him? Don’t know anyone that remembers grandad now he died in 1930.
FG: Oh 1930
PR: He was quite young and Mum was just over 12 and then my Grandma lived on until 1952 and died in that house they moved in there when they were married, soon after 1900. Who do you remember living in our row of villas then the Tysers who else among…
FG: The Wacketts, Stella & Doris.
PR: Yes they were……. the NSPC Inspector was along there
FG: Oh yes yes
PR: Nora Turnbull and Will Dye.
FG: What was that name on the corner
RC: Oh yes Thorn’s, Thorn and er Olive and ……mother and two daughters yes Thorn’s
FG: No I don’t remember them this was a driving instructor
PR: Bob Harding
FG: That’s it Bob Harding that’s right yes
PR: They pulled down Thorn’s house didn’t they
FG: That’s right yes Hardings was next that’s right
PR: I must talk to Bob because he would be good to talk to like this because in the end he was the driving test inspector
Both ladies: That’s right yes
FG: he gave me a lift once when I used to go to Ware Park and he picked me up, he was trying a car out or testing it, you know
PR: Oh yes
FG: he said I might as well test it I will take you up there, he took me in Ware Par, you know, sanatorium we used to call it.
PR: Yes yes
FG: When Bob got married Mabel lived in Bengeo, I can’t remember the name of that road now.
RC: Elton Road?
FG: No not Elton Road the next road to that.
PR: Eleanor?
FG: Eleanor Road that’s it she lived in Eleanor Road when she got married. When Bob got married they hadn’t got anywhere to live so they had rooms with Mabel.
PR: Oh
FG: That’s where Helen was born Eleanor Road
PR: Oh Eleanor Road
FG: Yes that was Mabel’s baby, right until Mable died, came to her funeral. She always said my Helen.
PR: Yes I remember Mabel living up there, I had forgotten that.
FG: Eleanor Road yes
PR: Bob’s mother was my grandmothers bridesmaid
Ladies: Oh yes
PR: 1900 She was only four then. She kept her bridesmaids dress into her late 80s.
Ladies: Oh yes
PR: They were all Hertingfordbury Road as well.
Ladies: That’s right, that’s it yes
PR: Down near grandad
FG: There was Jeffries's the sweet shop in St Andrew Street wasn’t there, Jeffries the sweet shop
RC: Jeffries, yes
FG: Hattam's the cake shop.
RC: That was a nice little shop at the top of the yard wasn’t it
FG: Yes
RC: Then the Allen’s they lived down the yard they won all that money that time. They won, I know it was…… it was about £l35,000 they shared it between them. They shared it between the family didn’t they.
PR: Yes, Well Philip Turnball, I went to see (Reverend) Philip Turnbull who was the parson on Tuesday he is in a nursing home in …down on the south coast I went down to see him. He said, I had forgotten that story, that Mrs. AlIen fainted or nearly fainted at the end of the yard with the shock of this big win
RC: Yes I think she did yes, I think it was a shock to them.
FG: She was a big woman, Mrs. AlIen oh a poor lady yes
RC: That’s right the girlsl were as well weren’t they.
FG: Yes, I saw Winnie Allen in a chair. Her daughter had got her in a chair the other day.
PR: So she… were they regular putting a few bob on………
Ladies: NO it was the Irish Sweepstake
PR: Oh
Ladies: What we have now is the Lottery……..lucky ticket you see.
PR: Oh it wasn’t ………….
Ladies No oh No it was the Irish Sweepstake,
FG: Luck of the draw
RC: £135,000 I think they got
FG: At that time I was in service at Barnet when I saw it in the paper, cause there was no television, I counted up from 15a St Andrew Street that was Dearmans, right the way up, all the houses I put down, you know past the church and all that, and it was either the AlIen’s or the Dolley’s. But it was the Allen’s, yes. Remember old Polly Betts? (There were lots of giggles).
RC: Oh yes
FG: I often think of her now, because we did used to knock her door and run away. They talk about the kids today
PR: Where was she living then?
Ladies: In St Andrew Street by the church. Going to the hall, down by St Nicholas Hall wasn’t it. There were two houses
FG: Violet Grey lived in one didn’t she, then her mother married Mr. Kent and, old Polly Betts.
RC: that’s right Polly Betts she was a 'funny geyser' wasn’t she.
FG: Yes
RC: The kids did used to play her up though poor old thing
PR: So knocking on the door…
Ladies and running away yes
FG: She used to come out and we used to run down Colemans yard so she didn’t see us.
RC: She was well funny, she used to wear old knitted boots and things and used to go about, well not in rags but funny you know, she used to dress funny
FG: You're not getting her muddled up with Palmers are you?
RC: No
FG: She used to dress like that, now she had knitted boots didn’t she
RC: She was another funny one
FG: She used to put adverts in the window, it used to be Palmers the sweet shop.
PR: Whereabouts was that?
FG: Next to I think it’s a joke shop now. In St Andrew Street
PR: Oh yes one of those little ones with the overhanging….
Ladies: That’s right yes
FG: Miss Oates, was her name Miss Oates?
RC: Miss Oates yes
FG: That’s it she used to put adverts in the window she wanted a man.
(Lots of laughter). We had some laughs really. It was a laugh really when you look back on it. I mean there was no crime or anything like that.
PR: One of the Allen blokes went to prison didn’t he?
RC: Yes he killed a girl Cook.
FG: He killed a child along the Ware Road, girl Cook, you know old Cook the rag and bone man used to come round, his daughter.
PR: Went to Australia didn’t he Cook?
FG: He did yes, but he killed…………it was after he won that money wasn’t it.
RC: Yes
FG: Lovely little girl, he had a car and speeding he was.
PR: Oh
FG: Reggie AlIen
PR: Philip had mentioned that but I couldn’t ……..he has had a stroke Philip Turnball
FG: Has he, yes
PR: Yes and he gets his words muddled. It was pancake day I went there he was saying he was going to have pancakes in the evening
FG: OHH
PR: But he could only say “patcans” instead of pancakes. He is alright for a bit and then he gets ………
FG: I saw him one day, oh it must be a long time ago, and he'd looked at me and I sort of recognised him but I think he did recognise me, but he always had a flawless skin didn’t he, it was like a girls skin.
PR: Yes well mum always called him 'Blossom'
Ladies: Oh yes that’s right
PR: He could be a bit “old womany”
FG: Oh yes and Anthony, had died didn’t he
PR: Yes
FG: and then there was a girl wasn’t there?
PR: Not in that family
FG: Oh in your family I am thinking of
PR: yes that might be mother, just two boys in the Turnballs
FG: Yes Anthony and um………. Cause my name was Everett
PR: Right yes
FG: Before I got married
PR: That’s not related to Margaret Everett at Hornsmill that married Charles, don’t think she was a Hertford person
FG: No no
PR: She was a Saville lived in………..
FG: Oh I know her yes. I have seen her at the St. Andrew's lunches. She used to live in the Castle Bridges didn’t she?
PR: Yes that’s right her dad was a postman along there next to Mr. Geeves.
FG: Oh, yes, Albie Geeves.
PR: Got him tomorrow morning
FG: Have you? Oh, ask him if he remembers me, Florrie Everett.
PR: I expect he will.
FG: I expect he does Flo Everett
PR: I booked him up, that’s the last of my talks I enjoy doing it but I have got to get on with his school work.
FG: Where does he live then?
PR: Well he keeps moving, he was in Glebe Road in Bengeo then when they modernised he went to Manor Close. His dad went to Manor Close from Water Lane after his mum died.
FG: Oh yes
PR: That’s the door I have been knocking on all this week and he hadn’t answered then eventually someone answered and it wasn't him or Mrs. Geeves. She said well he moved a week ago. And she didn’t know where so I asked in Farnham's the newsagent on Old Cross and they gave me the new address.
FG: Oh lovely yes yes
PR: So I have booked Albert up for a……
FG: Cause he would be my age wouldn’t he? Well they would all be my age all them…..Ernie North died young, in his sixties. Nice man he was.
PR: Alfie Mansfield was a bit younger you isn’t he
FG: Oh, Alfie Mansfield, if you meet him you can't get rid of him, can you.
PR: I don’t think I am going to try…….
FG: He's dreadful, but he's a nice old boy!
PR: He’s younger is he?
FG: Oh yes he’s Ede’s age.
PR: I think he must have been……
FG: The other one was my age, the one what married little Louie Godfrey, remember little Louie Godfrey?
PR: Yes
FG: He’d be my age but not Alfie, Ernie Mansfield was it? Ni I don’t think it was Alfie Mansfield.
Transcribers Not: It was Charles Mansfield that married Louie Godfrey
PR: Alfie was the one, I remember mum saying when she was in St. Andrew's playground there was a hush because a message came through that Alfie Mansfield had died. All the children you know were very sober in school but the next day it was a mistake he was just very ill. and he's still alive now.
Ladies: Yes
RC: He was in church last week for Rene's funeral. Rene Crane well we always call her Rene Crane but Rene Stagg. Alfie came in on his own
PR: Oh did he
RC: Yes he sat in front of us always moaning about his neighbours if you meet him…..
PR: he has got ne neighbours now, hes moved up to Pinehurst.
RC: Oh has he?
FG: His wife's sweet shes a lovely girl.
PR: yes, where do the Hopkins family come in? I mean I know it’s another generationbut there are lots of Hopkins
RC: The Hopkins, well one of the works over the shop here now, she was a Hopkins wasn’t she, Shirley, well then Mrs Hopkins she…
FG: Well yes but you are taking about………
RC: Mrs. Hopkins she lived in a bungalow opposite Carol before she died.
PR: Yes Ashley Road
FG: The first one was nice wasn’t she old Doll Ives who married an Akers.
RC: That’s right
FG: She lost her husband and married Hopkins & had all these children. She had two or three by Akers, didn’t she, she was 'old Doll Ives'.
PR: She was a matriarchal figure always at the baptisms of all her grandchildren. Oh that was her second marriage was it?
Ladies: Yes
PR: She was a Hertford person?
Ladies Oh yes
FG: Lived down the Green the Ives’ did. You know Clliff North well he married an Ives, her sister, Trenchie Ives we used to call her, Esther wasn’t it? We always called her Trenchie Ives
PR: Old Whisperer Cliff.
FG: But he always speaks to you.
PR: Oh smashing I gave him a picture, I took it in to Gravesons and they made a joke of it I was round the town with a camera in the summer and he came you know old Cliff with his cravat and I took a picture and I took it into Graveson's the other day and of course they made a bit of a fuss. Showing it around, then of course when I next saw him in the street he’s half a mile off in the air. He does a good job for Graveson's taking the cardboard boxes and things.
FG: He always says to me I remember old Daubie “ I remember old Daubie” that was my husband.
PR: Yes
FG: Not many old ones left now is their really. Do you remember Laurence the grocers shop? That was Hardings in laws.
PR: In laws yes
FG: Then there was another little shop is it the girl you go about with? The little shop….
RC: Westons yes, Way she was the girl Way
FG: Well they had a grocers shop there funny little shop wasn’t it, he was a cheeky man Mr way, oh he was, they were Gospel Hall people.
PR: Was that Crosses grocers shop then or another one?:
FG: Another one
PR: I remember Crosses
FG: No this was another one you went up a step, you know where the fish shop, Huggins, used to have a fish shop?
PR: Yes
FG: Well Ways, Huggins this fish shop stood back didn’t it? Well Ways was sort of forward on that corner there.
Transcribers Note Huggins was 11 Hertingfordbury Road in 1936 and no 9 was a wireless shop so this must be where they are referring to.
PR: I remember that was a wireless shop when I was a boy.
FG: Oh no a long time before that.
All talk over one another
FG: Well that was Ways the Westwood
Talk over one another again
FG: ………Talbot Street.
PR: That’s where my Dad lodged when he came to Hertford
FG: That’s right yes, she said he did and her brother, her brother died, and I go away with her.
PR: Well they will be pleased with us
FG: Do you want a cup of coffee
PR: No thanks
FG: Are you sure?
PR: No I am going to go and help and old chap into his pyjamas in Hoddesdon. He used to be the deputy head in the school in Broxbourne when I first went there, his son was at Grammar school with me, and then he retires and I used to call in on the way home from school. He is a widower, his wife died. He has got emphysema, he’s got a Zimmer frame and he walks with this but today he has had a visit from the matron of a home for the elderly in Watford, near where this son is, he thinks in June it is going to be ready and he is going to go there. At the moment I have to go and get him up in the mornings and put him to bed at night.
FG: You know you told me my photo was in the Castle.
PR: Yes
FG: You know you said to me was you in Chambers Street in the floods.
PR: Yes
FG: I went up and had a look in that big book, I told my Maurice, I don’t want to see that he said, who wants to see that! That was him what answered the phone to you.
PR: Yes yes. It is you, isn’t it?
FG: down Chambers Street, I walked in the Castle, all these years I have lived ion Hertford and I had never been in the Castle. Well I don’t know much about it but they have just opened this place and Peter said to me “thers a picture of you down Chambers Street in the floods” I said yes there’s a photo, he knew it was somebody that……….and when I went upstairs and looked it was me with Maurice in my arms.
RC: Talking going back to Rita my cousin, her brother was a schoolmaster. I think he sort of semi-retired about 2 years ago, early they are going up to his school about twice a week, he likes to keep in touch with the boys.
PR: Yes yes
RC: He is a nice boy Harry, that was in Bethnal Green or somewhere.
PR: All teachers retire early if they get a chance!
RC: I think he had had enough of travelling all that way you know.
PR: It’s a lovely job but it is ……
RC: he really loved it
PR: What he’s doing is perfect
RC: Yes .
PR: Keeping in touch but not going up every day
RC: No he goes up twice a week and he really loves it, I think he goes up…we were supposed to be going out to a lunch together and then I wasn’t well and keep putting it off and putting it off but I think we will meet one day! He is a nice boy couple of old gossips now……..
PR: They will love it …….
RC: Going back to , in that corner there, see that scroll I just want you to have a look at it, it when all my people worked at McMullens and Terry had just had this printed for me……roll it back a bit. This is very interesting.
Transcribers Note: Terry Crane her nephew
PR: Unroll then roll the other way
RC: I was going to try and show you some of the Cranes names on here except for Florrie
FG: OH yes!
RC: You see it was here for their golden wedding, Terry wanted to get the family tree of the Cranes and so the names on there except heres. You see my father worked there, Arthur and Bill worked there, Uncle Charlie from Bengeo.
FG: I always remember your Bill when I was courting, we used to be in old Grippers doorway, the house was empty then, old Bill Crane used to come across and warn us he was coming he used to have a great big rind of keys he used to rattle really hard. It was really funny cause he used to have to go in there because it belonged to McMullens then you see!
PR: Look at these names! 1913
FG: That’s the year I was born
RC: There was a golden wedding
PR: People didn’t have golden wedding then did they, they didn’t live that long!
FG: That’s marvellous
PR: That appears to be a McMullen and they were living at Westfield
RC: Yes Bengeo that’s out in the country isn’t it
PR: No that Westfield in West Street. That’s the last house in West Street because Mrs Miles sister Kit Bulley, do you remember Kit? Violets Miles had a sister Kit, used to live with them in St Andrew Street, but she used to do for……
FG: Oh a little short woman, yes you do, two sisters always about together
RC: Oh yes both ladies talk over one another
PR: She used to work, Kit Bulley, for Miss McMullen at Westfield in West Street. The last house in West Street.
Ladies: Oh yes
FG: I remember than now,
PR: She always used to talk about Miss McMullen this and Miss McMullen that so that must have been, I am sure that’s where these …………… unless they named it after, I think that probably right because Westfield Road wouldn’t have been…
All talk together
PR: These are all Hertford names Bangs, Boyes, Burton, Dickins of various kinds Ben Dearman now I wonder…
Ladies: Dearman, no wouldn’t be our Dearman
PR: Fred Cranes, Cannons and Carters, Fentiman, Graves, that’s very good
FG: That’s lovely Rose
RC: Is nice isn’t it
PR: Wacketts and Wheatcrofts yes they are all typical names that have been here for ever aren’t they
Ladies: That’s right yes
PR: Mills and Milsoms, Littleton, Haggar,
FG: Did you say Haggar just then?
PR: Yes Haggar
FG: You know that name I have been trying to think of Inspector Hadder, lived next door to us.
PR: Oh
FG: Just thought of that now, do you remember him?
RC: No I don’t
FG: They had two daughters
RC: What was he an inspector in?
FG: In the police
RC: Oh in the police no
FG: Hadder, had two girls, big girls,
RC: Oh yes I remember the girls
FG: Molly Hadder …..
All talk over one another again
FG: The name came to my mind just then, nice family
Tape ends abruptly