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Transcript Title	Swallow, Rosemary (O1995.16)
Interviewee	Rosemary Swallow (RS)
Interviewer	Peter Ruffles (PR)
Date	12/08/1995
Transcriber by	Unknown

Transcript

Hertford Oral History Group

Recording no O 1995.16

Interviewee: Rosemary Swallow (RS)

Date: 12th August, 1995

Venue: Bengeo Wick

Interviewers: Peter Ruffles (PR)

Transcriber: ?

************** unclear recording

[discussion] untranscribed material

italics editor’s notes

It is 12 August 1995, and Councillor Peter Ruffles, MBE, is interviewing Rosemary Swallow, MBE, at her home, Bengeo Wick.

PR: Rosemary Swallow is Hertford's probably best known person, one way or another aren't you. I should think?

RS: Could be, one way and another, yes.

PR: One way or another, and has been here a long time, and has been central to things a lot, especially in recent years. MBE last year for services to the people of Hertford, was it?

RS: That's right, voluntary services in the town of Hertford, very exciting.

PR: Most of our customers for the museum are elderly. Rosemary's not elderly, but she does have a past in the town. She can tell us all about!

RS: Getting a bit elderly now!

PR: And what I think our listeners are most interested in are your early years in Hertford. How you lived with a family, and first impressions, I suppose. But I wonder if you could, Rosemary, take us in bunny hops or leap frogs from Rosemary aged five, where was she, where was she born; Rosemary – fifteen; Rosemary in love; Rosemary - young mum; and then we'll get into

RS: Granny Rosemary!

PR: And then Granny Rosemary! Haven't you been Granny Rosemary all day today?

RS: Granny Rosemary quite a lot at the moment!

PR: So, where were you born Rosemary?

RS: Born in Edinburgh.

PR: And...was that into an Edinburgh family ,or did you just happen to emerge in Edinburgh?

RS: No, because my mother was DE Stevenson, the writer, and comes, or came, from a very, very famous Stevenson family of engineers in Edinburgh, who built all the lighthouses all around the country. My father was in the Highland Light Infantry, so we moved about a bit, to places like Grennock, because he was in the army. We went to a place called – it'll make you laugh! – Bearsden, which is near Glasgow, and this is the place I remember most, I think. I was there for about ten years, from the age of four, till we moved to a place called Moffat, in Dumfriesshire. I went to school at St. Bennett's and St. Andrew's, which is quite a famous school, which I actually hated! Went to boarding school. Hated it! Went at thirteen. Wasn't very studious. Loved games and music. And didn't do an awful lot of work, until it came to things like exams, when it wasn't quite so funny. And then I had to take the school certificate again. And I was actually at school when the war was declared. I remember my years going to a little school in Bearsden, called Drewsteigngon, which was a lovely little preparatory school, PNEU, Parents' National Educational Union I don't know whether you've ever heard of it? No homework! Marvellous, great! No homework at all!

PR: Well, who was at home then? Father obviously not all the time, I mean, was he with you?

RS: He was a major in the army

PR: Living at home, you saw him a lot?

RS: Living at home, saw him quite a lot, and he used to go off on army camps quite a lot, which he used to love. We had various dogs. I remember my mother writing books, lying on the sofa, which I think she probably shouldn't've done, because then she got arthritis and had to have a hip done, which wasn't successful. And I put it down to her perhaps not taking enough exercise.

PR: Were you the only child?

RS: No. I actually had a sister. When I was five I was very sad, because I had a sister of eleven, called Patsy, and she had a very bad go of measles, and then got a mastoid, which was terrible. She was in a nursing home in Glasgow. My parents were told would they please go and fetch her. When they got there, she had died. And I was five, and I remember this awful drama, and in those days, nobody told you anything. Nobody got me in a little corner, sat me down quietly, and said, "Now, Rosemary, your sister has died." She just disappeared. Anyway, it was frightful. But I was five, so I suppose, in a way, you could say you were a bit young then. But I've got a brother, who's seven years younger than me, John the farmer. Robin is the one in the army. He's regular army, so I was sort of one in the middle.

PR: Yes. So, schooldays passed

RS: Schooldays passed, and then of course at the end of the schooldays came the war. And first of all, before that, I thought I'd like to do PE. I loved lacrosse and tennis, and I thought, "That's what I want to do, teach games." I was thinking of going to Bedford, and then I thought, "Oh gosh, I don't think I could do that." So I got my school certificate, had to go back to school and take it again, second time, during the war - got it! Five credits, because everybody in those days had to have five credits.

So, I thought I'd like to drive an ambulance in France. This is what I really wanted to do. It seemed very exciting. So I got my driving licence, which was good. I'm glad I did that. I got that in Glasgow at the age of seventeen and a half. Then of course, never used it all during the war! I think I passed the test in my mother's car, a little car, but in Glasgow, which was a ghastly place to take it! Anyway, this was because I wanted to be a thing called a FANY - First Aid Nursing Yeomanry. And then saw a great friend of my mother's, resplendent in Wren officer's uniform, and I thought, "Gosh! That's what I want to be!" Then, before I was eighteen, I had an interview to join the Wrens, and I went to Rosyth and said, "I would like to join the Wrens, please." And they said, "Well, you have to be eighteen." And I said, "Well, as soon as I'm eighteen, I'd like to join the Wrens, please."

So, I was called up in September 1940, joined up as a Wren Coder at Rosyth, and did night duties and day duties, and I went underground, and it was really quite exciting at Rosyth. Then I got absolutely, heartily sick of it! Then I became a leading Wren, Petty Officer Wren, because I couldn't be an officer, because I wasn't old enough. And they kept saying I had to be twenty-five, and I thought, "Gosh, that's ancient!" Anyway, then I wanted to change my category, and I became Admin. I went and got my commission at the Painted Hall, the most beautiful place, down in Greenwich, which was where the Wrens went to get their commission. We had all our meals there. Then I went from Greenwich to Mill Hill, where the people were coming in to be made into Wrens, and I became a Divisional Officer, and I used to lecture to them. And tell them all about ranks and badges, the Navy, the Army, the Air Force, what would happen to them when they were Wrens. And that was very interesting. I was there for about a year. From there, I went to Machrihanish, you probably haven't heard of it, which is right down on the Mull of Kintyre, and I got the choice of that, or right up in the north of Scotland. So, I chose Machrihanish, and there I met Carus, who was a doctor at Machrihanish, which was a Royal Navy air station.

Met him, got to know him, and then, instead of being 3rd Officer Peploe, I married him, and became 3rd Officer Bevan! He had been on the Russian Convoys. Each air station would have a naval officer. He wasn't regular Navy. He'd become an officer, got his MRCSLRCP, and then he volunteered to go into the Navy and there he was, at Machrihanish, which was lovely, because I could meet him. And we used to go to dances on the site, long walks, get to know him, and all this sort of thing. It was lovely. Before that, I'd got to know people, but unfortunately, most of them had been killed as soon as I got to know them.

I was just at that age, eighteen, when you got to know the young boys. And it was quite a normal thing. You saw them one day, the next day, you said, "Where are they?" For instance, do you remember HMS Hood? Well, you wouldn't, because you're too young. But HMS Hood went down with practically all hands. Well when I was at Rosyth, we used to go indoor skating, and we little Wrens used to meet all the people from HMS Hood. And one day, they were there, and the next night, nobody was there. And we said, "What's happened to all these people?" And they said, "Oh, HMS Hood has gone down with practically all hands." But somehow, when you were young, you could take it. And I was glad that I wasn't married with children during the war. I would've been very worried for my children. I wouldn't have liked to have sent them to Canada or America. I would've been worried for their safety.

But you know where I was extremely lucky, because all my youth was spent in the Wrens. I was in the Wrens for six years, and I really had quite a good time. I worked quite hard, and, I mean, it was a time when you didn't have Saturday and Sundays off. I mean, when I was a Divisional Officer, I worked harder at the weekend than during the week.

PR: So, the Bevan family were where?

RS: Well, the Bevan family now. His parents lived at Lee-on-Solent. And, for my sins, I played cricket for the Wrens. And they said a cricket match was going to be held down at Lee-on-Solent. So Carus said, "Well, you'd better go and see my mother and father, because they live down there." So, I flew down. I went to see them. I was a bit nervous, because these might've been my future in-laws, you see, they hadn't met me before! Anyway, I met them, and it seemed to go all right. But they came from Lee-on-Solent, lovely place. And what was so funny, and rather interesting, Carus's relations are all round here! I mean, his grandfather built the church at Hertford Heath, and was the first rector there.

PR: Is that Barclay?

RS: David Barclay Bevan! I can show you pictures and photographs of him!

PR: Yes. I hadn't realised there was that connection. And there's a writer, of course, in that family as well, yours and his, Yes!

RS: Also do you know AlIen and Hanburys? Well, it used to be Bevan and Allen, and it used to be called the Plough Court Pharmacy, and Timothy Bevan started it, originally in Wales. Then they came up to London. Then they came out to Ware. And Bevan had a chap called Allen helping him. And then, no Bevan's went on with it, and Allen took on Hanbury, and that's how it became Allen and Hanbury. But it was originally the Plough Court Pharmacy, and started by the Bevans.

So, all round here, which was most extraordinary, which we didn't know when we came here at all! We came here to do the locum for Dr. Mortis. We were married in December 1945. We were both demobbed from the Navy about the same time and we came here in August 1946. Carus just wanted a job. It was before the National Health Service started in 1948. So, Carus thought, "Well, I'd better see what the practices are like." Because they knew how to buy your way in. You had to buy your way in to the practice.

And so, we came here to do the locum in August, because Carus saw it in the BMJ, and he said to me, "What about going to Hertford?" not even knowing that all his relations were round here. And so, we came in August 1946, just to do the locum. We liked it so much that we said to Dr Mortis, "We simply love Hertford," and he said, "I'm looking for an assistant with a view to partnership" And he wrote to Carus and said, "Would you like to be an assistant?" And Carus said, "Yes, please!" and we came here 1st of October, 1946, and we've been here ever since! That's a long time ago, but, you know, it doesn't really seem a long time ago.

PR: Where were you living? Presumably, did you live in the Mortis' house?

RS: When we came to do the locum, we lived in Cecil House. Absolutely fell in love with it. It's a gorgeous, big, Georgian house. We'd never been in a house. We'd been in a funny little flat in Campbelltown, which is right down Machrihanish, because we were both working when we were first married in the Navy. We had a little flat, a scruffy little flat. But we'd never been in such a gorgeous house as Cecil House. and we absolutely fell in love with it, in St. Andrew Street.

And then we went to Frost the butcher, who was there, who isn't, of course, there now. At the end of Cawthorne he was. And we went to Symmond's the grocer, Florence the hat lady. Then, St. Andrew's Street was humming, lovely little street, and a lot of shops, which is rather sad. A lot of the shops have gone. And also, when we first came, opposite Cecil House were a whole lot of shops and houses, which, of course, have now gone, because while we were there, they did that roundabout. Awful mess they made. When we lived here at first, we lived in 19 Westfield Road, in Bengeo. And we had three children. We had David in a carry cot in the bath. And then we moved to Runton Lodge, in Bengeo Street. And, of course, in those days, there were none of these houses all up here, heaps and heaps of houses, Molewood, the Avenue, etc. etc. So Bengeo Street was, in fact, quite a quiet street. Not nearly so much building as there is now in Bengeo. But we always loved Bengeo. We loved the air up here, because it's just up out of the town. And we always wanted to get back to Bengeo, really. We were ten years at Cecil House, '55to '65, and loved it!

PR: But Carus's mother was living next door

RS: First of all, his mother lived up in Bengeo. And then I discovered we had to go, because there was an agreement we had to go. Dr Mortis left Cecil House. We had to go down and live in the practice house. In those days, doctors lived at their practices. Nowadays they don't nearly so much. But there was an agreement that we had to, so down we went. I was slightly worried about the children and the traffic and the dust and stuff like that, but we loved it. We loved living in Cecil House, but slightly hankered to get back to Bengeo and Granny Bevan. First of all, both of them came, Grandpa and Granny Bevan, and they lived up in Bengeo in that little cottage next door to Beninghoe Rectory. Now shortly after that, unfortunately, Grandpa Bevan died, and she was left alone there. We moved down to Cecil House, and she was a bit lonely, because we moved them here. She was quite old, and old people don't make friends quite so quickly when they're moved. She'd got a lot of her friends at Lee-on-Solent and we moved her here. Anyway, so then I discovered that the house next to us was going to be sold, 54 St. Andrew Street, someone like the Black.

PR: Blackfords, Mrs Blackford, the spaniel dog in the basket of her bicycle.

RS: That's right! The Blackfords emptied it, and I wondered if Granny Bevan would like to come down and be next door. And she said, “Yes, she would be delighted.” So, she came and lived next door to us. And then I discovered that Margot Longmore was thinking of selling Bengeo Wick. At a party, somebody said, "Well, you know, of course, the Longmores are moving." You see. Pricked up my ears. I thought, "Gosh, I wonder if we could afford that house. It's a gorgeous house." And we thought about it. We thought, "Well, I don't know, we might be able to. Now, what shall we do about Cecil House?" So, we thought, "If we sell Cecil House, we can move the surgery next door to 54, St. Andrew Street. We can move Granny Bevan along to North Road," So we said to Granny Bevan, "Could you stand the idea of living in North Road?" She said, "I don't mind living in North Road." So, I discovered there was quite a nice house going, 100 North Road, and we moved her there. First of all, we said things like, "Would you like to have a nice little flat made to live in above the surgery?" No, she didn't want to do that. She liked to have her own little front door. So, we moved her along to 100, North Road. We sold Cecil House, and we moved the practice, lock, stock, and barrel, across, so it wasn't too bad for people who'd been going to Cecil House, they just went next door. And that enabled us to come up here. We sold Cecil House. So, that was quite exciting when we came back here.

PR: Yes, what a lovely, lovely place to have spent all this time.

RS: We do love it. I love it very much. But unfortunately, the most dreadful thing happened, and 1969, Carus died. Dreadful! And that was a most ghastly blow to the whole family. It was like the whole head had gone. And I was left with five children, which was lovely. It was lovely to have them, but I just wasn't in the mood, really! It was a ghastly time.

PR: Were they away at school?

RS: Yes, you see, Jen, the eldest, was married with a little baby. She was living away from home. She was the only one. Wendy was at Cambridge, Dave was at Haileybury, Penny was at Wycombe Abbey, Emmie was up here. She was eight when Carus died. And so, really, the children could've gone. They could've gone to drugs. They could've gone haywire. But they were absolutely marvellous. They were wonderful, much better, really, than I was.

PR: But he wasn't ill for long, was he?

RS: No, he always had slight trouble with his inside, and he did have a pain. Being a doctor, I think he suspected it could be cancer. But you can imagine if you're a doctor, you're seeing people with cancer, you get this pain, you think to yourself, "Don't be silly, it couldn't be me." I mean, great big upstanding person, wasn't he? You wouldn't imagine he would have cancer. And he got this most frightful pain. And Donald Bedford operated, apparently operated on the wrong side. Well, that didn't actually matter, because he'd got the most frightful cancer. But I remember sitting in the County Hospital with Wendy, who was my mainstay really. She was the one at Cambridge. And she was there with me. And he came down and he said, "Carus has got cancer, I'm afraid." And, of course, you know, you just could've died! And I said, "Will he be all right?" And he said, "Well, it's a very bad cancer." I never knew, you know, when you experience these things, you just think, "Cancer is cancer." But there's all sorts of cancers you can get. He had a thing called cancer of the colon. You can have a piece of colon taken out, and you can be perfectly all right. But his, unfortunately, had got into his glands. It's a bit of history, actually. And he was so well known. And he had got a most lovely practice. He was very well loved, and it was a most frightful blow.

And then, of course, was the time when I might've gone up to Scotland. And my mother was keen for me to go up to Moffat, but I got lovely friends down here. And all my children were at what I call English schools and if I'd gone up to Moffat, I don't think I could've kept so close. And so, I decided then not to, and hang on if I possibly could here, which I did. And I'm glad I did.

PR: Yes, because out of that has come your civic public years.

RS: Yes. You see, as a doctor's wife, I would never have stood for the council. We used to have meetings and things, and I remember them saying, "We do need a district councillor for Bengeo," I suppose this is somewhere about 1976. And I said, "Do you need a degree?", because I really didn't know, and you know, people don't! People don't know what you need to be a councillor! They fell about laughing, and said, "A degree? No, you don't need a degree!" Well, I just wanted to know whether I'd be any good! And I did stand. And I did get in. And I enjoyed it. That was the District Council first of all, and then what I did rather love was being Chairman of Community Services, which was really rather exciting.

PR: That was a big money spend committee to chair across 200 square miles.

RS: I know. It was really quite exciting, and it used to make the hair stand straight on end with fright. But what I did do were several good things, as you well know, the lid on the swimming pool, which was fairly controversial at the time, may I say! One or two letters saying things like, "How disgraceful that you even think of covering the pool!" I admit it was the most glorious outside pool, it was. The summers, of course, were not like this particular summer now. If it'd been this one, of course, I'd' have been, sort of, you know, hung, drawn, and quartered! And in actual fact, the summer when they were putting the top on was a lovely summer.

PR: Quite a good summer, yes! But it's proved itself, hasn't it?

RS: It's well used, it's well loved, and it's a great thing.

PR: And all the year round.

RS: And all the year round, and children are learning swimming, and, I think it's a great thing for Hertford. And I'm glad we had it done.

PR: So you served as a district councillor

RS: A district councillor first of all, yes, and then I stood for the town as well. So then I was Town and District four years later

PR: Sometimes here in Bengeo.

RS: Sometimes in King's Mead.

PR: Which was a much, much chancier thing

RS: Well, I really quite fancied the challenge of King's Mead, quite honestly. It's a lovely, little place, lovely people there. Of course, I love Bengeo

PR: Well, yes, that's home, and easy, on the doorstep

RS: Exactly. And people know me round here. But I enjoyed my time as a King's Mead councillor very much indeed. And we're now resuscitating the branch, of course, again, which is lovely.

PR: Bringing up the family in the town as you were, I mean, let's talk housewifing. We mentioned Frost the butcher, and Symmonds the grocer down the road

RS: Yes, and Spencer also was a great chap in the town, Spencer the butcher. Of course, when I came, there was rationing, really. When I say 'rationing', you had a tiny piece of meat, and then you had another baby, and they slightly increased the meat. And then you had another baby, and you got a piece a tiny weeny bit bigger, quite difficult to feed children, except I used to go to Spencer the butcher, and he used to give me some liver and stuff like that, sort of under the counter. And we had hens. We had chickens, and we loved eggs and things like that, so we didn't do too badly. Being in the Wrens, you see, I wasn't used to cooking at all. You got everything cooked for you, which was marvellous. But then, of course, a housewife, yes, you had to start cooking!

PR: But nowadays, you cater for large parties with other people in the kitchen, their sleeves rolled up. lots of things happen at the Wick, don't they?!

RS: We have barbecues up here. We've had Talking Newspapers party. We've had Friends of Evron up here. We've had the Conservatives up here. We haven't had Friends of Wildeshausen. I don't think, have we? I've had the Friends of Evron staying here and all that sort of exciting stuff. A lot of these things that are held here. I just give the house. And I'm very lucky indeed, because there's usually little groups of people cooking and things like that, band we have a lovely party without having any of the bother of the cooking, great!

PR: That has skated along the Hertford things. We've done it very well, because I haven't needed to steer you in any way, but, I mean, what about characters, people in the town? Where are the ones that used to say, "Oh gosh, do you remember so and so?" I suppose I could almost start by saying Oscar Cuneen, couldn't we, as the town clerk.

RS: Yes, now you've been, of course, on the town council longer than me, haven't you? You were on the District, and were you on the town council as well?

PR: Yes. I started both together, '76

RS: So you were a bit longer than me.

PR: I had Jack Eddington first of all

RS: Ah yes. I knew him, you see, because as well as doing council and stuff like that, for years and years and years, I've done the Red Cross flag days for Hertford, and of course, had rather a lot of money to bank, and once or twice or three times, I used to go to the town council long before I was a councillor. And I asked if I could put the money in their safe, from the Flag Day. So of course, I got to know them through another area, you see, Red Cross flag days. Done for yonks. And WRVS meals on wheels, I mean, I've done it since it was 7p a meal and since there was something like 45 meals. There are now 120! And the meals are a pound, but they're jolly good value even so

PR: I remember your battles on Community Services to keep the subsidy.

RS: Yes. They could sort of see it coming, you know. I could see them sitting there, thinking, "Oh gosh," when it came upon the agenda, and they'd say, "I know, Rose is going to say something tonight!" And once, I remember when it went up to something like a pound, I actually thought to myself, "Do you know, a pound really might be easier.” And I gave them all a bit of a shock by putting up my hand, and they thought, "Oh God, here we are!" and lo and behold, I said, "I know what you're expecting. You're expecting me to say I think the meals are too expensive, but actually, I think it's all alright this time." And they all heaved a sigh of relief. Yes, now, thinking of old characters, I used to know people like Dr Buckley. He was a great old thing, great person. Dr Gregson-Williams was a great friend of Carus's. Knew the doctors, of course, fairly well.

PR: Dr Gilmer, was he practising?

RS: Yes. He was a partner of Donnock. He had four daughters, didn't he? And he lived m...

PR: Queen's Road! He was our family doctor.

RS: Yes. They've now made his house into flats, haven't they? And, of course, Dr Hotson's house and Dr Gregson-Williams' house, of course, were ruined by the new road, Gascoyne Way. Gascoyne Way, I'm afraid, ruined, I think, Hertford. I think Gascoyne Way was not a very good idea for Hertford. And I'll tell you another thing that I don't like about Hertford, and that is when they took the bottom from the corn exchange. And when they also took away that lovely little place, where they had china and stuff, in Bull Plain.

PR: The Arcade?

RS: Yes. I went on holiday once, and I came back, and I discovered the Arcade had got the thumbs down, and the covered market had got the thumbs down.

PR: That was in the late seventies

RS: It's funny, you see, isn't it? We don't like change, do we? We don't like change.

PR: But very often, as you say, even years afterwards, you can regret, because the change isn't an improvement.

RS: They must've thought it was going to be an improvement, I suppose, the covered market. You see, let's face it, was only used once a week. So I suppose they'd say, "Yes, it's only used once a week." I remember, of course, thinking of the old people now, there were two fish shops at least, weren't there? Brewster's

PR: In South Street, and Claydon's, which is still there

RS: Claydon's, of course, I'm glad is still going strong now. I think that's great. I think the whole centre of Hertford, which has got the fountain, I do think that has been good for Claydon, because people are walking more, and they're passing his shop.

PR: The person I spoke to yesterday with this machine said, "Oh, yes, Mrs Swallow always used to speak to me in the fish shop. She wouldn't know me, but she always had a little word." So, the immediately preceding tape in the museum that'll get a number before yours will have a reference to you, from Mrs Hilda Wisbey. And that's where you were nice to her, in the fish shop!

RS: How sweet! I'm very glad! And I'll tell you a funny thing. I hope it doesn't matter, mentioning things like Conservatives, but when I went canvassing up here, I knocked on some lady's door. and she said, "Oh, come in, I've been waiting to see you!" And I said, "Oh, have you?" And she said, "Yes! You stopped when I was stuck on a roundabout and asked me if I was all right. And my children were in the car. We were in a frightful state, and I've never forgotten it!" And, do you know, I never remember seeing her before in my life! It's the most extraordinary thing, but I'm awfully glad I did it, because I think she voted for me!

PR: Yes, people do remember these little things!

RS: I think my saving grace has been I do love people. Everybody I love.

PR: Well, you've been in the town, and you were here when the Les Foster, the Bentleys, that sort of vintage councillor, was just giving up their term

RS: I remember Tony Bentley well, lovely man.

PR: Bobby Sandford! Those were the last years of the borough. One or two of them served with us, and others had stopped, but we knew them as town's people.

RS: Bobby Sandford used to live up here. They lived opposite Runton Lodge. And I knew her before she became a councillor. And Joan Coleman, of course, lived next to her.

PR: I didn't realise the Sandfords lived there. I knew Joan Coleman did.

RS: And Joan Coleman lived opposite Runton Lodge. Runton Lodge I liked very much indeed. It was lovely, when the children were small. But I have, in a way, sort of dovetailed in with my sort of voluntary work. I found it was a terrific way of getting to know people, doing something that I hope was worthwhile. And getting them to do something that was actually good for them as well, both people, the people who help and the people who receive voluntary work, you see, because it does you good to do something for somebody else. And that's why I did it when Carus died. Somebody just said to me, I'd only just started doing it when Carus died, "Have you ever thought of meals on wheels, Rosemary?" And I said, "No." I do love the town, which is a great thing. I didn't know how much I was going to enjoy being on the town council. I'll tell you this straight out, I didn't know, I wondered. But as soon as I joined the town council, I enjoyed it. I might've done it the wrong way round, I don't know but as soon as I joined the Town Council, I did enjoy it thoroughly. But my views as a town councillor were rather odd. But I thought I wouldn't enjoy it, a most extraordinary thing. I probably did it the wrong way round.

PR: I think others would've said, I've had the same experience really, you have to do much more work yourself as a town councillor, because there's a lot of offices you can ask to do things for you, and because you do it, you're more involved.

RS: And it's fascinating to do things for the town. And to feel you're doing them for the town. I suppose that's the interesting thing about it, really, whereas a district councillor, it's very much bigger, and there's far more power in district councilling.

PR: This sounds not a very nice thing to say really, but the best thing that happened to me at the district council level was being chairman for two years, and Vice Chairman for a couple. And then, when you've got a job to do, and an authority, as it were, not power, but a reason for being in Benington, other than just going yourself. You go with the authority of the council, and meet people. Then you realise your part in the district is very similar to being a town councillor, where you actually meet the people much more easily.

RS: I would've loved to have been chairman of the district council

PR: Yes. Then I think you get a much greater fulfilment

RS: But I don't think I was important enough. I don't think I stood a chance

PR: Well, you were chairman of the spending committee

RS: I remember that. But did I stand again? I can't remember. Chairman of it for quite a long time, like about four and a half to five years. I was in community services, and then it was lovely, because then it was community services, and not housing joined up. It is now, you see. I wouldn't like it nearly so much now. Housing and community services joined up. I'd rather have community services. I really enjoyed that.

PR: How was that famous bi-election victory though. Because after you stood down from the district council, and said, "Right, I'll just concentrate on the town."

RS: Oh yes, that was extraordinary, wasn't it? I know, well, I thought, "I'm getting too old. I won't stand as a district councillor." And I didn't, you're exactly right. I must admit I did miss it. And when two or three Liberal Democrats all left in a heap in Bengeo, somebody suddenly said what about me standing. And I hadn't actually thought of it. And then I thought, you know, "It'll be a bit of a challenge." But then, it was rather a bad time, because they were closing all the pits, and Michael Heseltine had just said all the pits were closing. And everybody was furious with the Government, and I thought, "Crikey! I shall never get in!" And I went round canvassing and saying things like, "I'm awfully sorry, the pits are nothing to do with me!" And then they voted for me, which was great!

PR: Yes. It wasn't a question of holding onto a seat. You won back a Liberal seat at a time of great criticism of the Government! They were poor attenders, weren't they?

RS: Yes, they were very poor attenders. And they both left the area. They actually moved house, which I don't think you can do when you're a town councillor. I think you must stay in the district, because people can't phone you up or anything, because that's what I liked really. I didn't really like tub thumping very much. I like helping people. And if they were in trouble about their houses, they'd ring up, and I'd go round, and I'd look and say, "Yes, I think so," or "No, I don't think so." And occasionally, you could help them. You really could. I enjoyed that very much, liked that part of it.

PR: Well, the town's benefited greatly from your enthusiasms and energies and when I met you yesterday morning at about 8 o’clock you had already been swimming.

RS: I had, yes I had, not only swimming I had been down, I have got a couple of grandchildren staying I knew that and I thought to myself I must be up and about fairly early and I knew I had got the actual books for the meals on wheels on Friday to move from the office to the kitchen and I actually went down at about 6 I suppose and it was glorious, there was nobody there, and I nipped in and what was I doing? I know trying to get them bacon and eggs for their brekkies.

PR: Yes a good English breakfast!

End of Tape