Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Sell, Ethel (O 1996.30) |
| Interviewee | Ethel Sell (ES) |
| Interviewer | Jean Riddell (JR) |
| Date | 27/08/1996 |
| Transcriber by | Jean Riddell |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O 1996 .30
Interviewee: Ethel Sell (ES)
Date: Tuesday August 27th, l996
Venue: 1 Portland Place, Hertford Heath
Interviewer: Jean Riddell (JR)
Transcriber: Jean Riddell
italics editor’s notes
JR: It's and this is Jean Riddell again, and this morning I'm at the home of Miss Ethel Sell. Ethel's mother was a Dye and she lived in Railway Street, Hertford and Bircherley Green, Hertford as a child. Now, Ethel, were you born in that area?
ES: I was born at the County Hospital.
JR: And your parents were living in.....?
ES: Thornton Street, The Folly.
JR: So you actually were born - not born at The Folly, but that's where you went home to. And did you move from there into Bircherley Green?
ES: My mother was....I had a sister and she was burned to death.
JR: Was she?
ES: Oh, yes, she died in the hospital in Queens Road. In...half way up, there used to be a hospital.
JR: In Queens Road? Oh, I didn't realise that.
ES: Oh, yes, it's a lodge there now and you come out from Hagsdell and that's in the corner.
JR: Yes, I know the corner you mean....was that a hospital....so, what actually happened then?
ES: Well, my mother, she was a manageress at the laundry at Hertford - steam laundry - she worked very hard and I think that really brought on the illness that she had. She went to the County Hospital and she died there and my sister died the year before. They were ever so upset about it.
JR: Was there a fire there then?
ES: Oh, that was my Aunt Mal....we used to call her ...her name was Malvina Phillips down at Spencer Street. I lived with my grandmother, my mother was working and she looked after me and my Aunt Mal lived down Spencer Street and she used to have Cis....she used to look after her all day and she always used to go up to the town every morning and do her shopping and Aunt Mal was going up shopping and she said "Come on, Cis, get ready" - no, she's not going, she was playing down the garden with the children next door. So, she said, "no, you'd better come, there's nobody to look after you", So the woman next door said "Oh, she can stay with us, they're playing out there, they'll be all right". So she condescended to go and while they were out, the person (a big dog come in, panting) went out somewhere and left the children there. They got tired of playing in the garden, they went upstairs - those houses there, were three flights - and they started playing with matches in there and men were coming out from work from the old Parlophone....used to make gramophone records down there .....and they come out and Mr. Brittain...he said he found her....you know. They rushed in there and he got her out and they took her up to this hospital...I can remember her being there.
JR: So, she was so badly burned, was she.....
ES: Oh, yes.
JR: From matches, she caught alight?
ES: Yes.
JR: Oh, dear, how old was she?
ES: Oh, not very old, about three or something.
JR: What was her name?
ES: Cis...Cissie.
JR: Right. Oh, that was a bad thing, what a shock.
ES: I think that upset mum and what with working so hard you know, like during the war time....
JR: Yes, this was the first world war.
ES: Yes.
JR: When were you born then?
ES: l9l0. Christmas before, 22nd December.
JR: You've got some memories. You remember a little bit about the war do you?
ES: Oh, yes, I can remember something of it. You remember silly little things really..... remember watching the Zeppelins go over...used to go out in the street and watch 'em.
JR: One bomb came down on Bull Plain, didn't it...do you remember anything about that?
ES: I know one came down...oh....
JR: One came down at Cuffley, that was the famous one. So your mum was a Dye and Joan Neal's dad was a Dye and they were brother and sister, your mum and Joan's dad?
ES: They were the two youngest and they were very fond of one another. I've got a photograph of us that Joan's dad carried with him all through the war.....my Cis and I and my mum's written on the back 'Dear Uncle, we've come to see you'...I said I'd take it down and show it to Joan!
JR: So you lived at....did you stay living on Folly Island?
ES: No, when my dad died, I was 5.
JR: Oh, your dad died when you were 5.
ES: I went to school when I was 3. A young person - Mum paid them or used to give them sweets and that, they used to take me to school and look after me....come and pick me up and all that sort of thing. Grandmother and Grandfather....Grandfather was chimney sweeping but Gran, she didn't want too much to do.
JR: So who did you live with then when your mother died?
ES: Well, Dad was in the army in the war, I never saw him. I went with Grandmother and Grandfather and that's that.
JR: Where did they live then?
ES: In 19 Green Street, two doors away from Joan.
JR: Was that the house with the railings and the cherry tree?
ES: No, that's Joan's house....this is 2 houses down.
JR: We have a picture of that other one, with the railings. And you lived there for quite a long time.
ES: Oh, yes, until they pulled the houses down. My grandmother died, Grandfather died in l94l, ten years before my grandfather died.
JR: l93l, yes.
ES: We moved from there into Castle Street, a little cottage there - they pulled that down now. I looked after my grandmother and grandfather. I used to work perhaps for a year or so and then I had to give it up 'cos my gran wasn't well. Then she fell and broke her ankle and that's what upset her and I was home for a long time, but Joan was a little girl then and I used to take her to school. She didn't like school, not to go, her mum used to take her.
JR: Where did she go?
ES: Abel Smith, and Aunt Clara said to me, "would you mind taking her to school, 'cos she upsets her mum?" So I used to go up the alley and walk all the way round the churchyard and as soon as she heard that school bell she'd start crying.
JR: So, what difference is there between you and Joan.....you were a bit older, were you?
E. I don't know, I don't know how old Joan is!
JR: When you were taking her at that time.....how old were you then?
ES: Well, I'd left school at l4.
JR: So it must have been something like 8 or 9 years, was it?
ES: Oh, yes, perhaps more than that - might be l0. I don't know how old Joan is....I shall be 86 in December.
JR: So you were almost like a big sister to Joan?
ES: Yes, we are. Then when my grandfather died in '4l I went and lived with Joan's mum and dad and we lived together for some while. I was working for Mr. Young then, the baker.
JR: Yes, tell us about that. That was in the Wash, wasn't it?
ES: Yes, in the Wash. He bought the premises down in Railway Street and he opened a shop. He had all the oven done and baked the bread down there and he had the shop open while the bread was being done in the mornings.
JR: That was near the Warren pub, wasn't it?
ES: Yes, next door. No, the blacksmith and then the shop. Then the Lion's Head, the pub next to it.
JR: So, between the blacksmith's and the Lion's Head.
ES: Yes, the Lion's Head, then the fish shop, then a yard going up to the old people's place.
Then came Dodsons the fish shop, 2 fish shops together! Then you went round the corner and there was another shop - that was pulled down.
JR: Between the 2 fish shops, was there a workhouse....not a workhouse, a lodging house?
ES: Yes, the opening to the lodging house.
JR: I heard about that - it was quite well-known, wasn't it?
ES: Yes, it was ever such a big house.
JR: Yes, what was it before then?
ES: I don't know what it was, it's always been a lodging house.
JR: 'Cos I think I've seen on a map, it could be almhouses, but I'm not quite sure.
ES: Oh, no, I don't think so. It was a tremendously big house. 3 storeys or so. (The White House)
JR: I need to investigate that then I think. And you were saying that in Youngs, you had some benches?
(A tiny bit missing when the tapes goes on and off)
ES: The shop had a seat along there.
JR: This is when Hopkins had it?
ES: Miss Hopkins, she used to have a dog. Her pet died and she had it stuffed and that used to sit on the side there! I can see that brown dog now!
JR: Who used to come and eat this food?
ES: The old men from the lodging house!
JR: Yes, I thought.
ES: It was only for them.
JR: So, was it just for men, the lodging house?
ES: Yes.
JR: No women? (no)....and it was run by the Hopkins?
ES: I don't know who it was run by, it wasn't run by Hopkins. (slight confusion here!)
JR: Was there another lodging house in another part of Bircherly Green?
ES: Not that I can remember....there used to be maltings down there.
JR: There was nothing down Green Street?
ES: No.
JR: Would you think the lodging house was used by itinerant workers - the people that came just for a little while - on the railway....?
ES: No.
JR: It was just a convenient home for people who hadn't got a home?
ES: That's right....they lived there for years, some of them.
JR: Did they work, these men?
ES: Don't think so, no.
JR: There must have been some form of charity to keep them.
ES: I should think so.
JR: No, what about the area as far as people that you remember goes....who do you remember particularly living in that area?
ES: Down in Green Street?
JR: Yes, and round there.
ES: Well, down the bottom there used to be a family named Raw. A mother and two sons or three sons. They were always fighting.
JR: Was the mother known as Granny Raw?
ES: I don't know...always called her Mrs. Raw.
JR: I think we've heard of Granny Raw...I assume it's the same person.
ES: Where they lived was two houses joined. One facing up towards Railway Street and the other was into Green Street and the one who lived there had to go up steps to get into it. But the other side was Mrs Claydon (or Clayton). Raws went round buying things up and selling them.
JR: Second hand dealers, were they?
ES: Yes, only small things....clothes and stuff. Then there was Dunnage....Mr. and Mrs. Dunnage. they had a daughter Jane and she couldn't do anything.....they used to sit her on the step and everybody went by and stopped to chat to herand she'd try and talk to you, but she couldn't talk, she'd say hello, and a lovely smile at you....I always remember that. Next door to that was a Mr. and Mrs. Phypers. He was a gardener/Handyman at Bayfordbury. He used to bring me a little baby rabbit over sometimes....it was dead, and he'd say, that's for you.
JR: Oh, did you want it?
ES: No! (laughs)
JR: You were telling me earlier that your mother, who was a Dye, her mother lived in the Angel as a child. And we think that was when it was a going concern...a proper pub. They were quite dismayed to see it looking so dilapidated.
ES: Oh, she was, 'cos the children used to go in, the fence was broke down, used to go in there and play.
JR: Yes, and that was in the back way. But after that you remember the Morris family and the Chambers family living there.
ES: Yes the Chambers family were a big family. Mr Chambers had his arm off - I don't know what happened. He had one arm. A very tall man.
JR: I think there's a Chambers....I think he lives in Hoddesdon.....that would be one of the children.
ES: Yes, well one of the sons of the Chambers I'm talking about, eldest boy......he had a daughter older.... he worked for Mr. Young part-time greasing tins and going out on the round.
JR: I think the best thing is to mention on the tape now is that your mother's mother's maiden name was Trundell.
ES: Grandmother's name.
JR: Yes. I think I've heard of that name several times before....fairly well known in the town, that name.
ES: Neices and nephews used to live at Ware. They had a greengrocers shop Amwell End where the cinema is, that way.
JR: So your father, was he a regular soldier?
ES: No.
JR: What did he do then?
ES: He was a rover, he worked at the brick fields at Hertingfordbury....he used to go down to the football ground and go along there. But he was a Royston man - wasn't a local man. At the end of his life I saw him but before that I never saw him for years and years. He'd married another woman and they came down - I didn't know anything about it. My mum, she used to save and that, she worked hard and she had a little bit of money, not a lot and when she died my gran and grandad, they had it turned over to me so I could have it when I came to a certain age. Well, I never heard anything, neither did my grandmother, for years and years. He took all the home away, my mother's home....my gran wouldn't let him take the sewing machine....mother used to make our clothes and all that..... she said no, she had that long before she knew you....and because they knew he was carrying on with this other woman.
He married her and they had one son. They came up to live in Hertford...lived in Protestants' Alley?...no, something yard not far from Joan.
JR: Oh, yes, I know - Providence Court.
ES: They came there and lived with the son and she used to come and meet me from school. I never told my gran....and they had all the money at the bank...I signed it. And when I did tell my gran she didn't half tell me off.
JR: What happened....you signed.....
ES: Because it was in my name, I had to go and sign to get the money out and they used to have it.
JR: Oh, I see.
ES: It went on and on for a long time.
JR: So you gave your money away, really.
ES: Oh, yes!
JR: Sorry, I didn't.....oh dear, no wonder your gran was cross.
ES: She was. So anyhow, in later years I didn't have anything to do with them, never wrote to them or anything so his sister at Royston, Aunt Nell...I always used to write......she used to write to me. I used to go over there, and stay and she wrote and said that dad was very ill and his wife had died and he wasn't being treated very well by her son. I never wrote to him. Then she wrote and told me he was coming up to live with her at Royston, so 'course then we got friendly, then we became friends.....perfectly all right until he died.
JR: Yes, but it was a long gap, wasn't it. But the son they had, it was his son as well, wasn't it?
ES: No, he had one son, Geoffrey ....he was a nice boy.... he lived.....and he met this girl and decided to get married.....Biggleswade, that was it, but I'd never met her, Aunt Nell had met her and Aunt Nell thought she was a bit doolali and I said what do you mean. She never speaks to anybody, she's ever so quiet, so I said well how do they get on, because he was full of life. Anyhow, they did. They got on, and she'd got a sister living in Leicester and he got on up there and my aunt and I went up to witness at his wedding. He died about 8 years ago. His wife died 3 years ago. That was Geoffrey, so the other son was just her son, so she was married before.
JR: Oh, it's complicated, isn't it really, getting it all worked out!
ES: Yes. (laughs)
JR: So, going back to Hertford....you worked at Youngs the bakers?
ES: I worked at the laundry at Gallows Hill.
JR: Right, so which did you do first, Youngs first?
ES: No, Youngs last, that's why I'm here.
JR: Right, so let's say, let's go up to the laundry.
ES: I went to the laundry and then my gran, she was ill......no, I worked at Addis's first and that's when Gran broke her ankle and Uncle Ernie came and fetched me from Addis's, so I left there and looked after Gran for a long time when she was ill. Then a friend said why don't you come up there, they want some workers at the laundry.
JR: Now, where was this laundry?
ES: In Gallows Hill. (Reliance Laundry)
JR: Well, the present day Gallows Hill....where would it be, about?
ES: You go up Gallows Hill and just a little way up on the right there's a turning. Well, that building there.
JR: Oh I know, yes, leads round to Foxholes Avenue.
ES: Yes, you can get there.
JR: What did you do there then?
ES: I was in the drying room. Certain things had to be dried in the drier. There was two of us working there.
JR: Was there any drying facility outside....lines?
ES: No. And then somebody said, you don't want to work there, why don't you get a job in service...so I went up to Bengeo Warren Park Road, to Rogersons, a young couple and I was there for a while.
JR: A big house?
ES: Yes.
JR: Yes, Harringtons lived there for a while, the maltsters, after Rogersons went. Aunt Mal again, she was in the Wash Bakery and Mrs. Young was saying about she wanted somebody to work there so she said we can't get anybody so Aunt Mal said,oh my Ethel's down there, she'll come. So she said tell her to come down and see me. So I did and I worked in the house for a time and then after a while I went in the shop.
JR: What's there now, where Youngs' Bakery was, is it now where that newsagents is?
ES: You know McMullens, that yard there....the one on the corner....is it a sweet shop there?
JR: Yes, yes, oh, that was it then, the bakehouse was at the back of the shop.
ES: That's how I looked after Mr. and Mrs. Young. He was ill and he went in hospital, he was in there for a long time, then he had to give up the shop because he couldn't work any more. He sold that and he was having this house built and I forget the year we moved up here - we wasn't living at the Wash, we lived here for some time and Daisy the other girl that worked in the bakehouse....he made the top bedroom and a smaller bedroom and a bathroom....made it into a flat so she lived there. That's how Michael came on the scene....that's the little boy over there, and people thought it was my baby 'cos he was always with me, he wasn't with anybody else, he was always with me.
Side B
JR: So they had the flat in Railway Street.
ES: Yes, at the end of the war, and his dad Ronald came home, so he got the flat for them, but they lived at the flat at the Wash for a little while. Then they moved to the other one and then I use to be up there in the bakehouse to help the man in the bakehouse first of all. She closed the shop then. Daisy used to bring him down from the top, from the flat, to me and I used to take him up. He was always with me, even when we went out anywhere...it's always, Ethel, carry me!...and Maison Cartons, she come in one day and she said, Mr. Young, Harry, she said, how do you get on, she said, I've got one like you. He said, what do you mean?
She said, your girl in the shop having that baby.....he said, she's never had any baby, she said, well, what about the baby....the little boy you've got here. That's his mother through there, he said. Yes, (laughter) and he was always with me! And then when we moved up here he was always with us at the Wash, Mr. Young bought some ground down the bottom ther and helped Daisy, and they had a bungalow built there, so they lived down the end of the village and he never went home, only weekends. When we moved here, he said no this is my home, I live up here. He used to bike to school and back again and weekends they used to go over to see her mother at Ware and stop until nearly l2 o'clock and they used to come here to pick him up to take him home.
JR: What's his name Michael.....?
ES: Michael Burton.
JR: How old would he be now?
ES: Oh, that's his wife what just come in.
JR: Oh, is it, I see.
ES: Must be about 5l, 52.
JR: Which school did he go to, then, the Grammar School?
ES: No, he went down to Simon Balle. He lives up at the bungalow....Mr. Young had that built for him.
JR: So, Mr. Young had quite a lot of property built, did he?
ES: Yes, he used to do that sort of thing, he used to buy property and that. The house over the way, that belonged to Mr. Young, that's how he got all this ground. That was the house where the woman came to him and asked Mr. Young if he'd like it and some more property a little bit further along and Miss Pamphillon, she lived there and she asked Mr. Young to call there.....would he like to buy the house, but she wanted to live there, so he bought it and she lived there as long as she lived.
JR: So Mr. Young was well-off, wasn't he, by the sound of it.
ES: He wasn't too bad, but he lost all his money, operations and all that, paying for specialists. He didn't have a lot left, anyhow he managed to live all right. I said when he gave up the shop, I said, what am I going to do? He said, well what do you think you're doing, you're coming up there with us. That's how I looked after him, he was ill for such a long time. He was in North Middx Hospital for a long time....used to go up there nearly every night to see him.
JR: What did you think about coming and living up there then after living in the town...did you like it?
ES: Oh, love it, nice and quiet. I go down the town on Friday afternoon, Daisy's husband....Daisy died....he lives down the bungalow still, he takes me down. He comes up about 3 o'clock, we go down the town. I just go into Waitrose or go into the bank and come home. He goes and gets his pension and that. And I call on Joan, stay with her for about quarter of an hour and we're home here by......I go to the paper shop then, to pay for me papers. Then on Saturdays.....'course I made all the bread for Jackie and I used to take some down to Joan on Saturadys, bread and buns.
JR: So, you must buy a lot of flour when you go down, do you?
ES: I did, I don't now. One night upstairs the doctor thought it was a heart attack but it wasn't, it's angina, so I don't do it now, Jackie said don't do it. All I do is just make a couple of loaves for us and Ron and that's all. I don't take anything for Joan now.
JR: Well, it's nice while you could do it, but there's no point in making yourself ill.
ES: Jackie said don't do it, but I just got to do it.
JR: I think breadmaking is nice. I make bread too, and I really like it and the results are usually good. I don't often have a bad one. But cake, I can't make a cake really, at all.
ES: I make a cake every week. I used to go down Saturday afternoon for about an hour, but now I don't go and once a fortnight on a Thursday I go and have me hair done. That's the only times I go out. I like it up here, it's so quiet.
JR: I like it up here too. I like Hertingfordbury as well. I think I would choose Hertingfordbury to live in if I had the choice. It's just this hill, isn't it, coming up the hill.
Now, going back to what we were talking about earlier on, you said you remember the Morrises living in the Angel. Can you say what members of the family you remember....you remember Jim?
ES: I don't remember any of them......I only know they were all there.
JR: I heard from one of them that somebody fell through the glass front of that room you were talking about, looking out of the window at a procession.
ES: I wouldn't know.
JR: Well, what other characters can you remember in the Green at that time? We mentioned Boncey, didn't we.
ES: He used to work for Dyes.
JR: Did he-
ES: Yes! Didn't Joan tell you about that? Ask Joan about it, I don't know whether she might have photo.
JR: Oh, right, because there were 2, weren't there, a father and a son. Is this the father that worked for.....the one with the white beard?
ES: No, he didn't have a beard, he was cleanshaven.....probably the son. He used to go soot sowing for them.
JR: Soot selling?
ES: Soot sowing.
JR: What does that mean?
ES: Well, they used to save all the soot, used to bag it up, farmers used to buy it.
JR: A kind of fertilizer.
ES: They used to havve a bath, tie a bath in front of them and put the soot all round.
JR: Like scattering seeds.
ES: Grandfather used to do that. It gradually faded away, but he used to do a lot of it. I've got a photograph upstairs of my grandfather, he was a foreman at the gas works but first of all before they went into business...'cos him and Joan's grandfather....well, they are both Joan's grandfathers...her mum's father, their mother and father were chimney sweeps. Well, then Joan's mother's father, he carried on with the business with them but grandfather, he worked at the gas works for a time, he was foreman down there and I got a photograph, one of those old ones, you know, it's faded. It's faded. I've got it wrapped in a .......working at the gas works. Then he finished there and he went to....Daniel, Uncle Daniel we used to call him.
JR: So, Joan's mother's father was a....
ES: No, my grandfather was the chimney sweep, her father carried on when the mother and father died.
JR: Joan's grandfather, not your grandfather...sorry, I'm getting slightly confused here. Oh, dear. So what were their names, they weren't Dyes, were they?
ES: Who?
JR: Joan's mother's...
ES: Yes!
JR: Yes, but the family....I thought you said....
ES: Joan's mother married my mother's brother, two cousins married. (This was in fact Clara Dye, who married her cousin and remained a Dye).
JR: Oh, I see, right. That's where it is, then. Sorry about that, I'm just slightly confused over all these people with the same name.
ES: There's so many in the Dye family!
JR: I realise that now. I've got a copy of a very old map at home and it shows a bit of....it looks as though you go down Green Street and carry on until you get to the river and there's a place on that map called Dyes Dipping Place. What was that?
ES: Well, there used to be the river going along the bottom. There was a malting there and then the River Lea and it had a rail and then between there and the other end of it halfway down it used to go down.
JR: What did they use that for?
ES: They used to put the ....the horses used to go down there to drink. That's all.
JR: Oh, it was just for the horses, a watering place for the horses.
ES: Yes.
JR: Oh, that has cleared up a big question because we wondered what that was.
ES: In latter years my grandmother and grandfather, his horse was known as Minnie and grandfather used to do all the Hoddesdon, Broxbourne, that way, chimney sweeping and when he used to go out in the horse and cart and when he used to come home, before he could get the bridle off, he (she!) used to walk down to our house, scratch on the steps wanting his bread. My granmother had to get bread for him. And do you know, my grandfather was taken ill twice up in Hoddesdon and that horse brought him home....he didn't have anything to do with the journey.
JR: We had somebody on a tape called Nanna Thomas, do you....
ES: Oh, yes, I know him. Is he still alive?
JR: Yes, lives in New Road in Bengeo...he used to help out when he was a boy. He said he used to go to churches at night...we didn't know if he was cleaning the churches or the church chimney...it's possible they were and he remembers going to Cuffley Church....you don't know that?
ES: No.
JR: Was there a place in the yard that kept the soot?
ES: Yes, you know the back of Wren's bakehouse?
JR: Yes.
ES: That opened onto what we used to call the sootyard. They used to keep ponies in this end of it and the carts and vans and that and this end there was quite a big shed and they used to keep the soot in there.
JR: Yes, I thought that was right. Well, that's cleared up two things that we were wondering about. Now, can you tell me the names of the Dyes, so I've got it straight. Your grandfather, which Dye was he?
ES: David.
JR: David Dye. We've heard of Daniel Dye.
ES: That's his brother.
JR: (writing)...David Dye was Ethel's grandad and his brother was Dan Dye.
ES: Their brother was killed up the chimney at...........
JR: At Goldings? Oh, was that their other brother? Did you get to know what happened there?
ES: Well, no. I only know that he was cleaning up the chimneys...grandfather said their mother used to go with them and she went with him and he got caught up there and she couldn't get him out.
JR: Yes, I heard about that. I didn't realise he was the brother of these two, David and Daniel. Who else is there in the Dye family then?
ES: What do you mean?
JR: Well, Joan's father - which Dye was he -
ES: David.
JR: Another David.
ES: Yes, no, Babe, we used to call him, his name was David.
JR: Who else was there - any more Dyes - because there's Lydia Dye.
ES: They'll all dead now, don't want to know them, do you?
JR: Well, OK....who else was there?
ES: There's James, Jim.
JR: Now, what was he?
ES: He was a gas worker, took after my grandfather David.
JR: Was he his son?
ES: Yes!....with Babe.
JR: David and Jim were the sons...(dog barking).
ES: They didn't do any sweeping, and Alfred, Dob, used to call him, he died a little while back, he was l00 when he died, not very long ago.
JR: Where did he live then?
ES: Down the Folly. Yes, and he was blind. He was a gas worker and he had to put the lights out at night, night man.
JR: What about Dan Dye, another Dan, was he the mayor?
ES: He was, yes. And what was the other one's name, there was another one.
JR: Another boy?
ES: I can't think of his name now (William)
JR: I think I can probably find out though, quite easily. Which is the one that lived in Hertingforbury Road?
ES: Well, that's the one I can't remember...(laughter).
JR: I can't either.....totally confused now, but there was one that lived in Hertingfordbury Road, so that was his brother.
ES: There's two sons, Clara, Joan's mum, that was his children.
JR: Clara was Joan's mum. One day I'll get all this worked out so I don't have to ask all these questions. What about Lydia Dye, how does whe come into this?
ES: Oh, that was John, the son of Daniel who was blind and he had a son, Jim, that's the one down the Folly, Lydia's husband that was.
JR: Oh, I think I'll give up on this now, (laughter), OK, let's go back to talking about the characters in the Green, if we can remember any more. We were talking about somebody called 'Up the Navy'..can you remember him?
ES: No.
JR: No? I thought we mentioned him earlier on....that was somebody that Dolly Morris said that she knew by sight and somebody else I was talking to yesterday also knew him and that was Les Sullivan. He lived in Haydens Court. Can you remember Cliff North, or Cliff Mead, perhaps?
ES: Cliff Mead, oh yes, I see him very often.
JR: You worked with him, did you?
ES: Oh yes.
JR: Because he said he used to ice the buns.
ES: Yes, all those sort of things.
JR: He's quite a character, isn't he?
ES: Yes, he is.
JR: Is there anyone else that you particularly remember, what about these fights in Railway Street?
ES: Oh, the Raws, two brothers. Johnny Raw, he was the youngest one. They used to drink and drink and come out from the pub and start fighting and Mrs. Raw their mother tried to stop them you know. I remember Nellie Ansell and I, my pal, we went to them and said, why don't you stop it, you're upsetting your mother, she turned on us and said you go away, it's nothing to do with you.
JR: So it wasn't much help, was it.
ES: No.
JR: The blacksmith .....now this is the one next to.....
ES: ....the one in Railway Street.
JR: Yes, near the Warren.
ES: Wilkinsons. There was 3 sisters and I don't know who the man was, this young man, I mean I only know how talk goes, but one of them's supposed to have had him - I don't know, don't know anything about them, but he went in the name of Wilkinson, anyhow. And the old ladies, I can see them now, walking up Railwat Street with a can of tea for him and sandwiches. We kids used to stand up there,oh, the smell used to be dreadful and we used to go in and help him swing up and down, we used to like that.
JR: The bellows?
ES: Yes.
JR: Did he have a good trade?
ES: Oh, yes, he was always busy.
JR: Did the Dyes go there?
ES: Got one daughter, Joan says, I don't know her.
JR: But the Dye family, did they use him as their blacksmith?
ES: Oh yes, at the beginning they did, they always did.
JR: Was he the only one in Railway Street?
ES: No, in Duncombe Arms they had a shed, where their car park is now and down there was some sheds and there used to be a man there.
JR: It wasn't Wheeler, was it?
ES: Wheeler, I think that was the name. That was the only 2 there. The other one used to be on Old Cross (about no. 27)
JR: Yes, did you ever see any of the blacksmiths actually working....were they hammering the nails into....
ES: Oh, yes, it was nothing to them, cutting their hooves, doing them all.
JR: Was it a very quick process, did it take a short time to do a horse?
ES: They weren't too long....they used to do it outside in the street sometimes... they might have 2 horses in the shed there with them.
JR: Did it while you waited did they? Were there any other shop keepers or businesses in Railway Street that you used to particularly have an interest in or know the people?
ES: Used to be the sweet shop, Joan's told you about that, and the milk shop.
JR: Yes, who owned the milk shop?
ES: I think it's a B and T place now.
JR: Phones.
ES: There's the bakers' shop then there used to be ....Sapsteads first, then Wrens, then there used to be a basket weaving shop, the people lived in Townshend Street....got their place there with all their canes. Then the little yard where the Wilkinsons lived, up there, there were 2 or 3 cottages up there. Then there was the milk shop and 2 Miss Smiths used to live in there.
JR: Was it called Smiths?
ES: Yes, Florrie died, she was the eldest. Their father came there ....he was to do with dogs, used to breed dogs. Mr. Young knew him....used to go (to courses) coursing with him. Mary, it got too much for her, she sold the business then and went and lived up Bengeo.
Her and Joan's mum were pals.
JR: Then the Angel must have been somewhere there as well, was it?
ES: Milkshop, then this yard then the sweet shop then the Angel. Then there was a little cottage with the pub next door - the Cross Keys - and there used to be a little house there - a nice little place and Jane Donoughue lived there. They're the fish people...she lived there, then there was a3 storey house that I think belonged to Barbers.
JR: Yes, on the corner (sc. of Bircherley Street and Railway Street). Well, that sounds right, people have often told us about the sequence of houses and shops. It's amazing how you remember it.
ES: It's a long time, they pulled it down, didn't they.
JR: Other things take their place and you forget exactly where. So, it's all changed now.
ES: Yes, you wouldn't know it.
JR: Except for Joan's little bit.
ES: That's there, yes.
JR: Well, right, thank you.....
ES: And the butchers shop, that's not changed really has it.
JR: The butchers....
ES: Parkinsons.
JR: Parkins, well it's now a pub, they've changed the shop front, but the buildings's the same.
ES: There was a dress shop there, an old couple.....she used to sell snuff and all that....all the old men from the lodging house used to go there.
JR: Did they, snuff? Is that Fieldings?
ES: Fieldings shop.
JR: I didn't know they sold snuff.
ES: Oh, yes, before her (Joan's) time. I can't think of the woman's name but she had a daughter and she married a Ginn ....used to be the manager at Fosters.
JR: Ginn? oh!
ES: Fosters in Fore Street. He was very well known, a nice man.
JR: Was he to do with the builders?
ES: No, oh no, no!