Interviewed by Peter Ruffles (PAR) and Frances Green (FGG)
Date: 15/02/2024
Transcribed by Mark Green (using Otter.AI for initial transcript)
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording No: 2024.3
Interviewees: Ben Crystall (BC)
Date: 15th February 2024
Venue: 62 Hertingfordbury Road
Interviewers: Peter Ruffles (PAR) and Frances Green (FGG)
Transcriber: Mark Green (using Otter.AI for initial transcript)
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
PAR: Well, this is Peter Ruffles in the company of Frances Green.
FGG: Yes, hello.
PAR: And it is the 16th of February 2024. And we are at 62 Hertingfordbury Road in the more illustrious company, of the leader of the District Council, East Hertfordshire District Council, Councillor Ben Crystall, and then you're not just the leader of the District Council, but you are a member of the Hertford Town Council. And you have this distinctive position of being the only Green Party member of Hertfordshire County Council. So there's stuff to talk about.
We ought to just say, Frances, that this is part of a series of talks, Ben's the final one. But it's distinct, isn't it? Because we recorded Andrew Porrer, Josh Dean, Bob Deering, before the highly significant May elections in 2023. So almost a year has gone by. And then we left Ben alone, he just happened to be the fourth one in our list, because we knew that he was then embedded in deep, deep and involving new things, and a kind of personal change of life.
Should I just say, because we're thinking of people listening to us talking in years to come that electorally East Herts differs from some other authorities nationally, because it's not a Council where one third retire every year, and there's an election every year. And then County Council election comes in the fourth year. It's a Council which chose to retire the whole Council simultaneously, every four years. So it’s a nice arrangement in a way, because you're not on doorsteps all the time, throughout the whole year. But it does mean that there can be a very, very big change. And not a, an evolved change, party politically, and that's just what happened in May. How was it for you, Ben?
BC: [Laughs] It was, you know, it was it was it was brilliant. It was lovely to see. And it was after, after the huge amount of work that that all of the… the campaigners and volunteers have been doing. It was, you know, your heart… heart just exploded with joy for them, because they've worked so hard. But it was awful. It was, you know, we had not for one second, planned on taking the Council. We hadn't, we'd thought maybe we would get ten seats um. Realistically, that was our hope. And so, so to get the number that we did, it there was a gradual dawning on us over the election, that kind of count through that night when because there was…, one of the counts was delayed till the following day, because it was so close in Castle, I think, which came out by one vote in the end. So that going overnight, we had that sort of extended period in which to think, oh, goodness, this is perhaps not what we'd not what we'd intended. Whether we'd ever even thought about it, I don't think we've ever realistically thought that we will be in a position of that to… to take joint control. Yeah, so it was it was real mixed real mixed feelings. Terror. I think is what it...
PAR: It had been a Conservative Council, sometimes there was a period when it was a hung council. So almost, the Tories had a majority of one vote. So it's it's it wasn't like that secure stronghold, like some former Labour, for example, in Ebbw Vale, where you might expect it there was an element of...
BC: Yes, I think and I think but I think that, that's, that's, that's something that you recognise the people who had lived in the town a very long time. I think you've got to remember that for us we weren't, most of us have never been Councillors before most of us had never been involved in politics. Many of us were new to the town. I'd only been there for 18, 19 years, at that point, 19 years at that point. And so, so we hadn't …everything we'd always known, a stable conservative run town, District, County. And so for us, it was almost kind of unthinkable that things could, that things would, change in that manner. Which, so that's your abs... I take your point.
PAR: I mean, it's it's fair to say that the Conservatives were also surprised I think...
BC: Yeah, I'm sure.
PAR: ...but not altogether surprised. Because you… I ought to explain that Ben and Sally Newton and I were the three elected members for Bengeo Ward. So Ben was a colleague, and we worked closely together.
BC: I think it was brilliant. And it was a real example of where you don't have to be the same party, you can still get things done and work together and pass things on to each other. That was a… that was a real pleasure.
PAR: Yes, yeah. That that worked. But we were well aware that your, the Green Party's, reputation in Bengeo was enhancing. And therefore for us, not a surprise that Bengeo and you said, you estimated in possibly 10 seats, the other half of town that makes up the County? It's called Kingsmead Ward and that has traditionally had a good liberal vote, non conservative vote, I would say. And then the other, the other half of the town currently here. Or no longer here, because I'm now in Bengeo Ward, because they changed the boundary. But traditionally this has been Castle Ward with Sele Ward, and Sele has been traditionally a Labour seat, although a lot of Conservatives have been elected and Liberals, there, so it's, it's a kind of thinking electorate? I would, I would say. And I think that's quite important to get from Ben if we can, today, an idea of how he thinks the community is. What kind of community it is we represent, because it's not the same as let's blacken, Ebbw Vale, which I love, because [laughs] because it's got has wonderful railway systems and things like that, in that quarter. But but their elections have been predictable, as have some in other parts of the country. And so we're a different society here. But how do you see, possibly historically, but how do you see the Hertford electors now do, do you, for example, in the Green Party campaign differently in different parts of the town? Or do you…?
BC: That, that's a good question. Um. I don't, I don't think we're that sophisticated in looking at looking at different wards, different divisions and identifying a very, I suppose, one of the ways that sort of, you know, a campaigning group say, say you should think is, you know, you create these, these characters that are for particular voters.
And, you know, you might have a particular kind of, you know, kind of elderly profile, a middle-aged profile and a young profile. And we don't have that we don't think like that locally. I think we're very much focused on the different the different issues in each of the wards. And so that's where we look, we focus on that, I think. The it's, I think, even in, you know, I was elected in 2019. First, so not, not very long at all ago, which came as a surprise to me, I must say, I didn't, I was a paper candidate, and I had no intention of being elected. That was, as far as I was concerned, that was a mistake. Um, and it was a big shock. But I think even since then, it feels like the residents certainly in Bengeo, where I think I know most, which I know best. I think the people there have changed even in the last three or four years. I think there's been been a… been a regular, obviously people, you know, people move on sell homes and new people come in, but in knocking on doors, and I'm sure you've probably experienced this as well, Peter, you see so many people I've seen so many young families coming in from London.
So it feels if, it felt like to me when we were knocking in in 2022, that there were a lot of new people never been no, no, no one had ever knocked on their door, um, and they were surprised that there were Greens locally. I think perhaps their backgrounds from London, they probably more Labour or may more Lib Dem, perhaps. But I think because we, we were the strongest, I, I feel we were the strongest campaigning group. I think they felt that, yeah, we'll give them a go. So there was a big… a big transfer of people who are new. I hadn't I had always kind of imagined living in Bengeo that actually people people didn't move on much and that there was a stable population because people love it. And but actually, I felt there was a lot more, new incoming people, perhaps from London. house prices, perhaps, kind of kids … the reasons that we moved out of London, you know, those kinds of things was was maybe accelerating. So perhaps there's been a faster turnover in people p'haps perhaps which is part of the reason for the change in in politics. I don't know.
PAR: That's fascinating really. Sele is the, the ward with the largest former council house tenant population, but that of course has been added to incrementally by private developments around the edge of the ward itself, Campfield Road estates along here, traditionally Labour, but changing and so the 2020s era is not the same as it was in 2000, for example, or and certainly not when I was first elected in the 70s before the sale of the council houses to a Housing Association, and before Mrs. Thatcher's, the impact of Mrs. Thatcher's ‘buy your own home’ thing came in. So yeah, an interesting thing. I'll deviate and Frances will be cross, um. So you came here about 20 years ago and you said just now house prices were of interest in part of that move. So what what's your own personal background where you where were you born, were you...?
BC: So I was born I'm an Essex boy, I was born in Leigh, Leigh-on-Sea down by the by the by the um, by the river, the Thames. So I grew up there went to school Westcliff which, which, and I'm coming to Hertford, it was fantastic to see Richard Hale because it's an almost identical architectural model as Westcliff High School where I went, and so they, they are kind of, two peas in a pod. So I grew up in Southend, I went to college and moved to London to do a PhD. And so I spent 10, perhaps 10 years in London, no more, probably '87, '97, 2007 20 years, 20 years, 25 years in London. Kind, kind of met my partner and we were living together had a dog in London. And we just spent everyday driving to go, go and walk the dog at Hampstead Heath or something. And we were saying what are we doing this for? Why are we spending all our time driving to a nice park away for I think we were by Shoreditch Park and which was quite ropey at that time. So we started looking around around London, we drove right round through through the south, and we came through Ware one day and then we were just passing through Hertford one day and we go this is this is this is really nice. And we drove up Port Hill, and I was thinking okay, so it's a bit of a distance. And I don't like the hill. And at the top of the hill on the right there was a house with a with a for sale sign, The Lodge to Warren Field, the pair of houses. And there was The Lodge was for sale...
PAR: The Shiptons are in there now.
BC: That's right, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so we ended up moving there. But it was just kind of coming through somewhere and where you go, this is really nice. So pure chance. lovely countryside. You know, we've been to Broxbourne Woods, we've been to various places around and so we had that kind of …community kind of looked good. So we moved there anyway. So we were there in twenty-two, December 2002. And the first person we moved in and the first person to come past was was a lady from across the road, Russell. Mrs. I can't even remember her name I'm afraid.
PAR: Craig,
FGG: Russ Craig?
BC: Carol, Carol. Carol Craig came and knocked on the door. And she's and she said she kept she she came in and we had a lovely chat. She said, look, I've got memory problems, but I just wanted to come and say hello, welcome. And it was just such a wonderful experience to meet someone on the first your first day, you have a chat. And she came and introduced herself and welcomed us and it was really lovely.
FGG: Nice connections, yes, yes.
PAR: Classic, classic Carol
FGG: Russ Craig is a.. he was a choir singer in Hertford Choral Society.
BC: OK. Yes. And he was yes, we got to meet him and he was really lovely. And, and then we got to know our neighbours, Colin and Jane Hadley who were again really, really wonderful.
FGG: What was your work focus while you were in London?
BC: So, so I was. So, I was trained as a scientist and I did scientific research. I was at Imperial for, I think to '97 And then I, '96 and then I got a bit tired of not really, you know, writing stuff that no one understands and and had to be twisted in a passive awful way of writing so that it's completely impersonal. And I was no good at raising money, which is what you have to start doing at a certain level. So and so I did a did a course at Birkbeck on science communication. So, and I then got an internship at IPC magazines, which was part of which had New Scientist Magazine, Amateur Photographer, and I got an internship there. And so I started there.
FGG: What, um, biomedical science?
BC: So, it was well, it was, I was a trainee journalist really, but it was just a journalism, actually. And then I did six months on Amateur Photographer and, and their sort of photography magazines. And then I did six months on New Scientist. And at the end of that, they said, ok, what you want to do, and I said, I want to go to New Scientist, and I started there and became a Features Editor. I spent 18, 19 years editing, commissioning ideas, just looking for what was interesting. That it was a lovely job, because you would, if you could find something that was interesting, and really made you go, wow, then the hope is that you can turn that into something that readers will go wow about.
So that was … and so I was really free, lovely, lovely job. Lovely to begin with, because it had its own library. And it was just, it was a lovely place to work really, really lovely. Sorry, I diverged. And when I… I left in, I resigned in 2015. It was quite stressful. But we, we looked at the new house to move to 18b on Bengeo Street, which is the cottage of the pair one of the pair of cottages set back which needed a lot of work doing. So, at that point, it was a good opportunity to go to go freelance as a journalist and spend the time renovating the house. Sorry, that was a long answer to a simple question.
FGG: It's the context, though. Were you involved in politics when you were in London?
BC: No, no, I've, I've never been interested in politics at all. I mean, my dad was a polit... was he was a local politician in Southend. He was a Lib Dem and I grew up seeing him disappear off to Council meetings and, you know, talking about conservation for the old town in Leigh. And I never I never, I was never really, and um, you know, poster boards and leafleting and all of those things. So, I grew up with that, but I was never at all interested in it. And yeah,
PAR: You wrote to me as a citizen when I was your Councillor.
BC: Did I? Well I hope I was polite.
PAR: Oh of course you were.
BC: I probably voted for you.
PAR: You were an active. I mean, you were aware of community. I think the issue was [chuckles] a perennial one which was safety on Byde Street. Was your son at Mill Mead at all?
BC: He was, yes. Of course, that's, right. So we lived in Byde Street for a while when the house was renovated. And yeah, he would we'd push him out the door each morning, he walked, walked to school. And part of that was Balfour, a walk down Balfour Street where there's obviously no pavement. And when, when there was a queue on Nelson Street, everyone would come along Balfour it became really rushed, and it's still happening.
PAR: It's still happening. I wonder whether it will be in 50 years time, I suspect that possibly...
BC: Still happening.
PAR: Oh, we will all be in flying cars by then, surely, jetpacks.
Now, um, mindful of the clock ticking. I wonder whether we could just separate the three authorities very briefly and talk about your attitude to each one. I mean, in Hertford, and again, this isn't across the country, a national pattern. We have three tiers of local government, which as we've said, Ben is part of each one of them. And the the root, the lowest one on the tier is the Hertford Town Council interested only in Hertford itself. And you've you're a newly elected member to that, possibly from what you said earlier, a little bit by surprise, but there you are. How do you see the role of the Town Council into the future?
BC: It's, it's, it's lovely that I think that the wonderful thing about the Town Council is that is this connection with the community and the fact that you're that it's that it's doing things, it's active, and it's doing events for the community. And it's so focused, and it does a fantastic job. And I think it's always done a fantastic job. You know, whoever whoever was in charge, I think it's been really successful. You know, how, how, it's lovely, it's lovely being part of that Council and the historic part is really is really fantastic and something that's a real, lovely experience, and probably, and I think probably you don't get that elsewhere.
The role I mean, the role in the future. I suppose there's, there's an element of kind of you know, what's the political changes that the the government? I know we're moving towards perhaps devolution sort of changes to the way that the structures work together. So so there could be changes there, but I don't know what they will be. You probably know more about that than me, Peter. But in terms of the community, it just seems like that it's got to it's got to do more with the community. I think at the moment. It I mean, I'm not I'm not saying it's not doing enough now. But I think I think doing more is a really positive thing. Obviously, financial challenges aside, seeing seeing the success of the sort of the events, those single events, it's very clear that they worked really well. But it kind of feels, it feels like those of those of those could expand in some way to make them run throughout the year, throughout the town, sort of expanding in there the way that they work to be more kind of kind of always there.
FGG: Just for posterity. What's an example of that?
BC: An example of what… what they do at the moment?
FGG: Yeah, that could be expanded.
BC: Okay. Oh, well, I think I mean, things like, you know, Cars at the Castle, Rock at the Castle, the film, the film thing, the film nights, those those kinds of things, which are kind of one-off events, and are brilliant. And there are other things like walks as well. And I think they're, they're, they're kind of one of the examples where I think they work really well, where those things are going on throughout the year are regular events, and they're brilliant. But I think, I think, and these are, these aren't, these probably aren't new ideas, but it's the kind of thing where you can create, um, a legacy across the town, you know, blue plaques sort of thing. Again, like, how do you extend that? How do we link that to the history of Hertford? So, you know, we've got all this fantastic technology coming along. Augmented reality, everyone, almost everyone has smartphones, internet is everywhere. So how do we start to use those to to mean that you're you can tap into the town's history, the town's culture, wherever you are in the town. There's why why the Museum is obviously critical, isn't it? But how can we bring the Museum out to to? I think, Bob, Bob Deering, or what it was one of your, one of your colleagues have talked about when the Theatre, we were talking about the Theatre several years ago about how you how you help people park in in a carpark that's a bit of a distance away? How do you then bring them into a town on to the town centre on a trail while creating trails of culture of history.
FGG: ah, walking posts?
BC: Of walking posts. You know, but, but they but they, you know, are they virtual? Are they really there? Are they just just ones that exist in, in the virtual world, but but you can tap into them with your phone? I think there's all kinds of things that then we can explore
PAR: So, those things would… do I take it in your opinion, would be best done by a Town Council? And not by the District?
BC: I think so, think yeah, I think the District I mean, the District. Yeah, I think the Town Council, I mean, perhaps in partnership, but I think the Town Council has the tie, that has the ties with with the Museum has the ties with the history. I think that's and, and the culture and the I mean, obviously with the Theatre, there's there's an element of overlap with …the District. But yeah, absolutely. Why not? They should be this should be done in partnership. But I think, I think to me, like the Town Council is where it should start. Yeah, I think so.
PAR: So, let's park the District Council, the middle tier, for a moment because that will need a little bit of description. I'm sure it will change as, as an authority in its nature. More perhaps, than the other two are unlikely to I don't know that. I'm sure it's going to be changed one way or another because it's a very difficult authority to run. So we'll put that on one side. Your 'Lone Ranger' role at the County if I can say so. My happiest years in local government were my 16 years at County. I enjoyed it a lot. But I was part of a group and it was always in my time there the controlling group it. When I was elected by surprise. First, the Conservatives didn't expect a Tory from Sele Farm had been Labour for 28 years the ward and so I was a surprise bonus but not only that, I gave them a majority of one with a Councillor who's still a Councillor although she had a gap in between from Hemel Hempstead that he will remember so. So again, the party stuff, but I was I was in the fold of the Conservative Group and I enjoyed those people as company of like minds, and there was, for me very good relations with, particularly the Labour Group throughout that time. But you're on your own? How does it work? Do you feel you can be effective?
BC: In a word - that's a challenge? Yeah, I think I think that's a really a really good question being effective is difficult on your own. So why don't I just …just to put in context, I, we… When I was elected, there was an independent Jack Madden from Hemel. So, so we, we agreed to join as an independent Green group. So, we formed a group, and obviously doing that gave us a group of two, the smallest group that we can be. And so having a group of two enabled one of us that whoever the leader of the group of two was, and I said, I don't mind doing it for the first year, if you do with the second, it just just means that you're then part of the conversations that I had had at with the Chief Exec and the other leaders. And it just gives you that extra opportunity to have that input. And so that was, so although being on my own as a Green means that I can have, you know, I'm just really there to wave my hand in the air and say, Don't forget this issue or that issue. That would that's all the impact I can possibly have. I can help residents, I can do all the things you would hope as a as a County Councillor, but really, it's about moving the Overton Window is what the this the term, isn't it where you've just tried to just shift, shift the discussion slightly towards things that that are important to you. And I think that's, that's really as at much as I can hope to achieve on my own at County. Yeah.
PAR: Are people generally friendly towards you as officers…
BC: They, they, they are. The officers are fantastic. I think the officers have been incredibly lovely. Just really, I've just been bowled over by them. The the Lib Dems we've got on, I think they're a little suspicious at first, but when they I think they, they've, I think they kind of are understanding and patient with me. And I've asked questions, and the Labour group have been lovely Judi Billing was was one of them is so sad that she died. But she was the Labour leader then. But and the Conservatives have been really quite have been been very friendly as well. It feels it feels like grown up in a funny sort of way. They're they they're it's it hasn't been so political. It has been a bit a little bit recently, I think with budgets and things. But it doesn't tend to be so political. And that's, that's an incredible pleasure. I think I just I just loath politics. I loathe the politics that we have at the District Council. It just, it's just, I'm not interested in it. And it's just a complete distraction from what we should be doing. And it ruins decisions. It threatens decisions, it means that we're thinking about politics rather than making the right decision. And that's a real a real problem. I think it's I wish we were all independents there, and there was no gathering of parties that’s my personal opinion…
PAR: I had one colleague late lamented, Duncan Peek, who represented Bishop Stortford for County, who always referred to it socially and everywhere else has been, and he was a District Councillor for many years. So he could do the contrast referred to it simply as the House of Lords, because of the the tone, the tone adopted. With exceptions like the one you've highlighted the budget side and then and then there are there are more House of Commons exchanges across the room. But much of the routine work was courteous and civil and respectful. Knowing that whoever has been elected from their place is working for their place as well as for the business of contributing to the business of the authorities. Interesting.
FGG: So, is there anything structural about the middle level of government that makes it more politicised? Or is it a function of the characters that are at that level?
PAR: I think your question is to Ben but if I can just begin the answer as it were. When the County was divided up in the early '70s into Districts and Authorities across the county, were abolished previous ones. So Sawbridgeworth Urban District Council ceased to exist. Bishops Stortford Urban District, half of Borough Council, which had more powers than the others, went. The County was then divided up into 10 Districts or Boroughs are the same thing really. The name applies. If you're a Borough, then you have a Mayor and some Boroughs, some places thought we really need the Mayor symbolically to do traditional things with a robe and all that sort of stuff. And others said, no, that's not the kind of Council we want to be. We want to label ourselves District and have a chairman and have it very much a business rather than and so that division happened but clearly East Herts was a leftover, difficult territory.
Others were much tidier Watford, Stevenage, the Hemel Dacorum Quarter, the Three Rivers is a bit of a leftover. And East Herts is one third of the whole County made up of five historic towns, and 70, parishes, villages, most of which have parish councils, 40 plus parish councils. So East Herts is, within the context of Hertford County, is different. And it's, we've always thought make the best of it. You know, that's your lot. That's your territory and make the best of it. And it's a huge challenge for someone like Ben to lead an authority, which has quite distinct east and west communities, quite distinct town and country communities. And all of that has got to be welded into one business, as it were one set of rates across and delivering services like dust carts up farm, very expensively up long farm drives and that sort of thing. So, so Ben's current position of trying to hold together not only party politically chamber, but geographically people's interests, many of whom are new, very, very few people were returned to the District Council. So, I mean, how… how is it Ben?
BC: Well, no, you have hit the nail on the head there. I think the strik…your question, striking the challenge is why they're different. I think definitely. It's that it's that that sort of real split east and west. And it's been heightened in this particular Council, because we've got very strong Lib Dem representation in in Bishop Stortford out in that, out in the east side and the west side is very strong, Green, and then we've got the rural areas, which are predominantly Conservative. And so we've got those those challenges. But I think I wonder if it's also that the services that we cover, are those services that are particularly controversial? Have you seen accounting where where where the Conservatives and the Lib Dems have really big ding dongs is over highways. And, you know, there's the eternal Phil Bibby versus Stephen Giles-Medhurst sort of arguments over and everyone looks forward to it every meeting. But but at District I suppose we've got waste collection, we've got parking. And … Planning, I've been planning my goodness. I just I just wonder if it's partly that as well. So we've got the geographical divisions, and then the most perhaps controversial, or some of the most controversial, passion filled policy, things to deal with… challenges to services to provide. So perhaps that's why it's, it's it's also...
FGG: I can imagine people come to those meetings pre-loaded with angst and grief from the community...
BC: I think, quite probably, yeah.
FGG: It's tough for you then to...
BC: It's, it's it's not certainly not alone. It's not something I've done before. Yeah, it's it's a challenge. It is a challenge, and it's constantly challenged, but because I think I think there's a majority of Greens who don't like who would prefer not to be to be political, because it, it divides. And it doesn't tend to achieve. So we try not to be we're we're partnered up with the Lib Dems who don't obviously share our politics but we have overlapped lots of overlaps. I think they they are in a different position where they feel actually, they are more traditionally political. I think the Green part perhaps its partly for difficult for us because we're not really a political party when the Greens aren't aren't really political party. We are campaigners. I think we may be changing that way. But we're not really a political party.
FGG: But then, to influence things and to make a change in the direction you would like. You have to be political, so...
BC: You do, yeah. We recognise that. Yes, you're right.
FGG: Is your own philosophy changing as a result of these encounters and experiences?
BC: It's having to be… yes, it's having to be moderated by it by by reality, you know, it's but it's it really great. And it's really it's not, it goes against the grain it goes against I think the majority of us really just don't enjoy. I've never enjoyed the District, District full District Council meetings. I've never enjoyed them. I think when it was just myself and and James [Fretnall?] he was the previous Green member, we just our heart sank, because the whole experience was, was. It's very, very unpleasant. And I don't, I don't feel that, I don't think it was very respectful. People weren't respectful to each other. That is what we really objected to that there was belittling people. And, and to me that something, I think that's really wrong. You know, there are reasons why. And there's long, long standing rivalries that that I, you know, that don't go back a long way. But I that that was what I really found unpleasant. And I hope we don't, we'd maybe do less of that. I mean, it's great. What's really positive is that we've got more of a balanced, balanced in terms of sizes groups as if there's a good representation from from four parties, which I think the discussions tend to be, there's still the passion there, but I think it gives us a more balanced opportunity for discussion, which is important. I think. So that's good. I think that's good for democracy. It should be good for democracy, I think
PAR: One, one thing. It's not, I don't want to make this sound as if it's central and would cure everything. But one thing that I think helped us in the past and does help County is where members are not seen as being part of a party political group only, but much more as representatives of an identifiable patch. So, you can't carry that too far. But one thing that used to be beneficial at District level was to have a Council and budget, a small amount of money that you could actually spend in your, in your ward.
BC: Was that the District level?
PAR: Yeah. So District. And at County, it does happen. Is it ten, ten grand a year...
BC: It has just been cut to five.
PAR: Oh, right. But so it has been substantial amount of money that you have available too, now I think that was introduced, well, it was introduced by the Conservatives some time back in the in the sure knowledge that you are helping the opposition members to actually gain credit at their base, which part of it, you know, you're giving them ten, thousand to improve their reputation with their own electorate. I think that was probably the thinking. But it somehow made other members in the chamber much more aware of a person's set of causes. If you take Ware for example, the Ware division, Ware wards are quite distinct or where until the boundary changes and in the emphasis that was needed there and a member could affect that. And when somebody spoke, you had a much sharper idea in some past years of where they were rooted, where they were coming from, as it were. That's not the whole job. Representation, but, but it helped and County. That's very, very clear or used to be very clear...
BC: That's a very good point
PAR: ...and also with, with highways. There's a separate budget for members to influence highway development in their division. I think I think that was valuable.
BC: Yeah, and that is a really good point. And I was thinking about that this morning. By chance. I was thinking, why don't we you know, would it even be possible to have a locality budget for wards, and it's interesting that they have had it before. I imagined that it would be - you're right, there's something about knowing knowing that you will share this this common link with your division or ward.
PAR: One, one difficulty with it, of course, is that the, the appetite for funds varies from ward to ward. If I can put it that way, there isn't if you represent Ardeley village and the great acres of territory around Ardeley, it's and you have the same sum of money to spend as someone in an urban ward, for example. Well, you know, there's a difficulty is hard to spend it in Ardeley and big party, yeah.
FGG: One great big spanking village hall...?!
PAR: Yeah, mindful of the need to just keep on I think we've covered a lot of ground but what we might beneficially do, Ben if you're happy is just to talk about Hertford and, and the community of the town we talked about it party politically, but how? Let's do it economically, how, how do you feel the economy of Hertford is looking? I mean, and how will it go in the future?
BC: That I mean, it feels it feels like a town that is generally well off and positive. And, and, and, and, you know, we look we look at the number of people, you know, look at the number of empty shops that we are below the average. Of course, there are too many nail bars or there are too many bars or there are too many hairdressers, but …it feels like that the town itself is doing well. Obviously we've had the years of without Bircherley Green, we've had the years without Waitrose, oh! heavens, that's that's been the gnashing of teeth in Bengeo. But just...
FGG: Not just Bengeo!
BC: So no, no, no, no, sorry, absolutely right, that was my experience. But you're right, gnashing of teeth everywhere. So, on the loss of the bookshop in Bircherley Green in which I remember with and Botsfords, oh, my goodness, don't get me started that, but the… it feels it feels like it is it is it is doing well, it feels like you know, there's changes coming from from Lea Wharf opening, the theatre coming. So it feels like that in terms of footfall, we're going to see an increase and a healthier, healthier town centre, that I think that what you hear as a Councillor is changes that we made to the, to the, to the through routes for cars through Parliament Square by closing Parliament Square to cars during COVID. And by keeping it in place, that we are impacting shops. I'm I kind of I kind of and that that that concerns me, I think, because there's a lot of evidence that says that's maybe not not the case. But we need evidence. So. But with that in mind, I think I think it feels really positive. You know, although there's an element of, of people in shops who say we need cars, we need lots of cars, we need easy parking, I still feel like there's that there's a County Council is clear on the way that they would like town centres to go. And they and they've got good examples of where it can work. And there are good examples around the around the country.
FGG: It's a very sort of convivial cafe feel...
BC: Exactly, it's a change. Yes, it's a change and and people don't like change. And and clearly, you know, some people don't like change, which is which is fine. So I think as long as we can be open to to a transformation, slow transformation that brings people with us, I think that those kinds of changes will be positive for the for the economy, and they'll continue to build. I think I'm optimistic about how it's how it's going, how it's working. I think I think there's discussion at the moment about a bid. And I think that's been going for for a few years. We're just continuing the process. So whether a bid would work in Hertford, I don't know. I think there's there's…
PAR: Could you describe a bid system for town centres, Ben.
BC: Oh, well, I so Business Improvement District, I think, is that right, and it's, it's a way of getting businesses to join together and…
PAR: Bishops Stortford is looking more positively at it, isn't it?
BC: Yes. Well, it
PAR: or is it not?
BC: Yeah, I mean, they've got one... They have one I mean, and it, it's operating. I think it gives it maybe gives the businesses I don't know a lot about it. So I can't claim to be an expert. My impression is it gives the businesses a way of having a voice. It costs a little bit of money, but it gives them an opportunity to get things, projects, going that would benefit for their community, business community and help and help the town. I mean, maybe there's other other benefits as well. But I think that that to me, that's the kind of and there are other models, of course. But I think it'd be great to start it's to have that or continue those discussions because that might work.
PAR: Good to have the positive suggestions that you have. It always… it matters about catchment and community, you know what, how close rival towns are of a different kind, and how big they are. And we're, we're pretty small. In the last district plan when we were told we had to provide 18,500 homes within East Herts, most of those didn't come to Hertford, Buntingford doubled in size. Bishops Stortford one thousand, huge, huge numbers, and we've only added less than 10,000
BC: Oh, no. No, no, no less. Less than one less than one thousand.
PAR: 950. And yes, 10,000 went to Gilston. That's where I'm getting that kind of money. But but so Hertford hasn't while other places, most recently within East Herts have grown. And Ware is because there's north of Ware development Hertford actually hasn't grown that much. And therefore supports a town centre with small numbers of people seeing it as their centre. Fascinating. When I was saying what we might possibly talk about, Ben, there was Graham Nixon had a proposal for, it must be the Town Council to consider proportional representation and make advances, if it could towards that. From what you said about inter-party relationships, you're likely to be a supporter, are you of that?
BC: Yes, yes, definitely. I mean, I think I think we had a discussion at District Council about it, a motion, a motion came to District from the Lib Dem group. And, and they pointed out that the Greens would have gone down in size, our group, we'd have gone down in size, and the Conservative group would have gone up. And actually, but… but and that, that is maybe but I think the benefits would be, would be people would feel, would feel that their vote is, is having more of an impact. I think that was goes back to perhaps the the kind of the big change in the 2023, May 23. Talk, going out to talk to people on the on the doorstep, again of this, there's been so much feeling that for people who don't didn't vote Conservative, and obviously for people who did, they will then, you know, they were always successful. I think a lot of people who weren't Conservative, natural Conservative voters, that I think that they often ended up feeling like my vote is wasted. It has no impact. I suppose it creates that it creates that disillusionment in local politics and the value of voting and PR [proportional representation] would perhaps improve that. And I think that's that's got to be a good thing. If there's a chance of improving kind of that, that engagement. I'm all for it. Whether, yeah...
PAR: I think the the last topic from me, Frances may have some others, is whether you could describe the education pattern in the town thinking about 50 years ahead, people where there are nursery schools, primary schools, secondary schools, and were a Hertford oral history so we're really thinking Hertford because education is County. How do you see it today? I mean, what is it today? Is it working today? And how do you see it developing?
BC: Yeah, it's a good question. I you know, I'm, I'm so so there are there's a pattern of nurseries and primaries around the town. How many are there? There's probably seven. You probably know more than better than me, Peter. And, and then three that were that with with with Sele Sele is one secondary Simon Balle and then Richard Hale, obviously, in the centre of the town and then Presdales in Ware have obviously takes a lot of a lot of girls. But the I think so I think overall, that numbers, the numbers of pupils numbers that were the birth rates falling? I think so. So I think we're likely to start I think we're already seeing a contraction. And I think there's been there's been a number of, of small village schools being closed around in Hertfordshire.
PAR: Yes, Tonwell, currently...
BC: Yes, Wareside, Wareside. So there's been a few where which have been closed, which is obviously very unpopular. I I think it's a combination of perhaps… it's all falling falling pupil numbers, there's also costs and as budgets get tighter and tighter, clearly focusing schools on bigger sites that that new new buildings that are much more environmentally sustainable, that that's a, potentially a strategy. We, I think the the challenges in Hertford appear to be probably nothing new but, but what I see… from talking to people is, we can't get our child into the nearest primary school, we have to go to walk from Bengeo down to, I don't know, Abel Smith or up to Morgans. And then that becomes sort of even more challenging at secondary where, where a lot of people want to have a child in in Hertford so they can walk, which is, which is really would be really lovely, but often Presdales and that that's a, there's a choice.
But and I think there's a considerable worry now with, with where to the proposed development that goes around the north of Ware that that will have schools there, the secondary school there, and there's a feeling amongst people, and it may not be very accurate, but there's a feeling a perception that that children from from Hertford or from Bengeo will have to go to there. I think some already go to Chauncey. And again, that's a choice. But it's, I think there's a very strong feeling from parents. And perhaps that's partly because of safety concerns with our children's children going out in and coming home in the dark in the evening. Perhaps there's I think there's an element of people who've certainly spoke to me about the sustainability of having to if there aren't buses, you end up driving and the sort of the impact there. So I think those are those are, for me, seem to be the real challenges. How do we balance the need for new places, against the challenge of the school budget against the challenge of maintaining sustainability so that people, people can walk and you know, we all know how important it is for primary school kids to be able to walk to school, you know, that they walk in the sun to school down down the hill to Mill Mead and some of the happiest memories I've got coming up in the afternoon with him on my back just chatting about rubbish, and you know, anything and everything. That's the loveliest experience, and to have, I think, to have to not be able to have that experience is just, it really breaks my heart. You know, I would say so. So it's obviously important that I think, you know, hopefully people can continue to walk, and I think most people do walk to school with their children. But it's that the idea that maybe that will be hard will become harder?
PAR: Yes. It's, I mean, this is the conservative in me. I, I don't see immediately a way of developing it satisfactorily. And what I do see is something I think is really, really good. Because there's choice, but there are always people that don't quite get the choice they want with our all-age school at Simon Balle, with our single sex schools like Presdales.
BC: No, you're right. And actually, I think I think the figure is like 95%. It's very high 90s that people get where they want to go. I suppose the I suppose the challenge is how do we provide footfall? When the child wants to go to Chauncey from, from Hertford or from Bengeo to Presdales? How do we help them get there in a way that doesn't involve people jumping in cars? The challenge for us...
PAR: a huge...the bottom line is it's being run as it needs to be run as a business... ...and yet yeah, fundamental thing is how what is the best education? Opportunity for an individual child, not not for the whole community? But where does each child fit? Learning processes, developmental stages and all of that something. At the moment, if you live in this town, the chances are you can assess your child, the child can do its own assessment with you and actually find the comfortable.
BC: yeah, and yeah absolutely, no, you're absolutely right. And yeah, I think that the schools themselves are fantastic. And I think that that the the choice is good, you're right. It's about how we balance all of those those. You're right, budgeting I mean, comes down to the budget really doesn't it basically. But er...
PAR: Occasionally I walk to Ware. It's very occasionally, there are various routes. But walking through, I was a bit taken aback on the safety issue. Walking, late afternoon, to Ware through Ware Park, I met large numbers of Chauncey School, pupils, teenagers walking home, and some on their own. And I'm not one to quickly pick up in our rather scornful of those who talk about that safety side of things. But there seems to be a big risk where the teenager wants to walk, because that's what they choose to do, I think and they can see the benefits of doing so when they're 14, 15, 16. And yet doing so it's a very lonely route and wooded and really not not altogether safe. But on the other hand, you know, people who walk across Hartham are at risk because there are social issues there for for young people. So there's always that, let's hope it's resisted. That's a risk that people go in car … bubbled in against all the bad things. Have we finished, Frances?
FGG: I think we pretty much have, yes. I suppose it's just the question about your own life and your time, you know, which must be spread quite thinly at the moment, across these… or do you find that you can easily manage...?
BC: It's getting better. In the first six months it was incredibly difficult. I'm starting to get into the sort of the rhythm of it, which is helping. But yeah, no, it is it's yeah, it's challenging. It's but then that's, that. Can't complain. Can I?
FGG: Well, you could, but...
BC: [laughs] No-one would listen, no-one would have any sympathy. [general laughter] That's that's understandable. But yeah, yeah, it is. It's yeah, it's important.
FGG: Anything you want to add Ben at all for people in 50 or 100 years time… when people say where are all those flying cars you promised?
BC: Yeah, that's what I'd like to know. Yeah. No, I’ll probably think of something on the way home there. That's the way the way it is naturally,
PAR: Which I mean, if there should be anything you think, oh, gosh, I really should have said that more clearly. Or something. A footnote in an email to one of us…
BC: Okay. All right. Yeah
PAR: .. to straighten it up. Or some big topic areas of opportunity we've all missed. Yeah, yeah.
BC: Okay. Yeah. Okay, good. Thank you very much.
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