Interviewed by Jean Riddell (JR)
Date: 28/06/2005
Transcribed by Susie Hunt
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O 2005.6
Interviewee: VALERIE COLE (VC), formerly of Christine’s Cafe
Date: 28th June 2005
Venue: 2a Fore Street (part of which is over the former cafe, now Shah-en-shah) property of Frances Luck, friend of Christine.
Interviewers: Jean Riddell (JR)
Transcriber: Susie Hunt
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s note
JR: I could sit there or here even. The microphone’s here now so we’re recording hopefully. Looks like it. The red light is on so we shouldn’t have any problem. So I think if I start by asking you what it was (door bell sounds, laughter). It was the fact that you didn’t want to bring up a family in Ilford (?) is that right?
VC: Well, where we were living there we had a flat above a cafe and a back yard which was fronted or backed onto by other shops, backs of other shops, and we knew a little bit about schooling in the area so if we were going to have a family it wasn’t the place we wanted to bring our children up. However we did like catering so the logical thing was to look for another business in an area we thought would be nice to bring up a family and that was Hertford.
JR: Yes. (laughter). How did you see the advert for instance or did you come and have a look round?
VC: Ooh, I’m trying to remember. We must, they were obviously advertised in a trade paper I imagine and because we were working (*****) and my husband coming over to have a look at it said, hmm, I think you should go as well, so we came. We came on a Sunday. When it was advertised erm, it was advertised as a five and a half day week but whilst it was on the market the then owner decided that he would see what Sunday trade was like so we actually came over here on a Sunday when we were closed and they were doing a roaring trade on a Sunday.
JR: Oh, good.
VC: We rather inherited a six and a half day trade, which we maintained for quite a few years. We probably maintained for about 10 years. We probably bought the freehold eventually doing that.
JR: So which was the half day you had?
VC: Thursday.
JR: Thursday afternoon?
VC: It wasn’t a full half day. We were closed at quarter to two, so when the business lunches were done, we would close then, and that was our afternoon off. I would go shopping to places like Luton, which, we didn’t have all the new towns, they weren’t as developed then but er..
JR: Yes. So everything else was closed as well, then was it?
VC: Hertford was closed completely on a Thursday. The early closing days were, you know, quite strongly observed then, you would probably remember.
JR: Yes, I do. Where I lived it was Wednesday and then it was Thursday earlier on. I was used to both days and didn’t remember sometimes which day it was!
VC: We needed that day off
JR: Yeah. So you decided to come here and carry on the same trade, really?
VC: Well, we.. it was a slightly different trade because at the rear of what most people would just see, the restaurant, behind the restaurant were the kitchens and at the rear behind the kitchens we had a bakery.
JR: Oh.
VC: And we had a very old bakery oven in there, erm, it would be an antique if it was still around I think and the bakery oven consists of, erm, four pull down doors one above the other. It was lit in the bottom. The top oven is the highest temperature. You gradually work your way down the lowest...the low oven, the lowest oven 4000 is the lowest temperature, so they weren’t all the same temperature. You could cook a range of different cakes, and at that time we did quite a trade in cakes as well. We not only served the home made cakes in the restaurant we sold them out (door slams)... the window was there. You would remember this obviously?
JR: Yeah. I, vaguely..
VC: The window was there -we had cakes in the window which we sold out and we used to make birthday cakes for the Christ’s Hospital girls and for Haileybury, erm, which I had to***We did inherit a pastry cook, a young girl, who was very, very good but I had to learn to do it alongside her. I’d always been a keen cook so, that was fun. Erm..
JR: So when you decided you would come here erm, it was a thriving business ******* selling it with good will and all the rest of it.
VC: Yes, and we..I can’t remember what we paid for it in those days. I know the rates were appalling you know so ridiculously low compared with today’s prices. It was sold to us with all the fixtures and fittings and goodwill which is a bit nebulous as far as catering is concerned I have to say because you are only as good as your last meal. Erm, I’ve dried up!
JR: Who was the person you bought it from? Or the people you bought it from? Do you remember their names?
VC: They were...I can’t
JR: They weren’t Tukes were they?
VC: No. The original name Christine was from Christine Tuke who was a Quaker lady who I had met, who I did meet at one time. I met her when we were talking about purchasing the freehold, and she was then living in Hatfield, with her brother, She subsequently went north back to her roots in Yorkshire where I think she died. She was a Quaker. She was very interested in the building because it was used as a Quaker meeting place at one time (when it was once part of an inn).
JR: Oh, right.
VC: Now you’ll get this from....oh...there was a teacher at Ware school, Vi somebody
JR: Vi Rowe
Transcription note: Dr Violet Rowe was history teacher at Presdales School in Ware
VC: Vi Rowe. She researched this and she’s actually been over, when she was alive. I don’t think she is with us any more.
JR: No, she’s not.
VC: She actually came over and she was interested to set foot in there because, you know, the Quakers met in there at one time. That was Mrs Tuke.
JR: That was in Christine’s time, that the early Quakers met there?
VC: No, no, I’m talking about the early days, not in Christine Tuke’s time.
JR: Ok. Oh..
VC: Going back in history, Vi Rowe’s written on this I think
JR: Well, she’s certainly written a book about the Quakers. I know that when it was an Inn it was certainly owned by Quakers at one time. The Fairmans so that’s who I assume she is talking about. We’re now talking about I think 17th century before they built the meeting house.
VC: Yes, they met in all kinds of odd places apparently.
JR: Yes, they had to go where they could.
VC: Christine Tuke bought the business at some time before the second world war. and erm, at that time she erm, it was quite erm well appointed. She had antique furniture and furnishings in there. Come the war, so I’m told there were lots of servicemen stationed around here and she saw a good trading opportunity, so she took a lot of her good stuff out and opened her doors to the servicemen. Now, she sold her business at some time after the second world war and it went through two or three hands before it finally came to us. We bought -it was always called Christine’s -after Christine Tuke. We bought the business from a family, from a couple called Robinson. They weren’t there very long. They were only there about 18 months. We subsequently met and got to know another couple who had been there for far longer, called the Bettmeads. Harry Bettmead and can’t remember the wife for the moment. They, I think they sold to the Robinsons, they had a son (John Bettmead (single ‘t?’), tall and blond) who was well known locally sports wise and Harry Bettmead himself was a professional footballer. They finished up in old Welwyn..they started a new business there, catering business called The Buttery. Don’t know what happened to them now. We actually bought from this couple called the Robinsons and er, when we bought the fixtures and fittings there were lots of the old circular pedestal tables, they were all, they hadn’t been looked after, they were all rickety and so on. They had lots of different chairs none in fours, there were lots of different chairs, and generally it was a little bit sad. Erm, but that was the way the ladies of the town liked it. We would have the ladies of the town come there to have coffee in the morning. and we’d only been there about a week. My head waitress came to me and she said, There’s a lady I’m not going to mention names, next door and she would like to speak to you as she hasn’t been introduced to you yet. So I was wheeled up to this lady like a little girl before the headmistress and erm, We haven’t had -you haven’t introduced yourself to us yet. I am, she was a lady who lived in Highfield Road or one of the roads back there and her husband was something big at County Hall. and I sort of came under the scrutiny of all these ladies. It was a different age actually because I remember when we were introduced to our staff this same lady whom my head waitress, she actually bobbed a curtsey to me and hoped she would be of good service to me. So it was a different age.
JR: Yes, it was.
VC: We’d been there about three years, two or three years, and we decided that, erm, this furniture really wasn’t very suitable. so we had a word with erm, Beckwiths and they came and took it all away, and they said they could make for each four tables they could probably make one. They took it all away and we had reproduction furniture put in there and the ladies of the town were not very happy about it. because they had been used to the way it was for many years. We preferred it. I was clean, it was, the chairs were not going to collapse the tables were stable which the others weren’t and we took up the dirty carpets. They were full of dust on the open wooden floor and we laid flooring down and that didn’t go down so well with some people, but it meant we could mop the floor and it would be clean, which we thought was more important as far as food was concerned.
JR: Probably would be now as well. So, what did you actually serve to eat?
VC: We had, erm, I will try and find a menu for you. There is a menu. In those days we didn’t have a licence. That came many years later. Erm, we served morning coffees, afternoon teas, business lunches. Afternoon teas and grills and business lunches. So we would open at 9.15 and we would close at 5.30. On Saturday we would close at 6.00 and on Thursday at quarter to two. Erm, people in the morning, the trade would normally be home made scones. We made scones fresh daily every day in the bakery oven and they would come out of the oven warm. They would be served with butter and jam and occasionally cream, if people wanted a cream tea. Erm, some people would rather have toasted tea cake for instance or just plain buttered toast, and if they wanted to have a late breakfast they could have anything on toast. They could have anything on toast from kidneys and baked beans to poached eggs and welsh rarebits, so that full range. Kidneys were popular actually in the afternoon.
JR: Hmm.
VC: Sardines, erm, then during the morning the preparations would be going on for lunch and we kept a grill menu which was constant. Each day we would have about three, possibly four, special items which would usually be a roast, beef, lamb, pork. Erm, something like cottage pie, erm, liver, braised liver, erm, sausage toad-in-the-hole was quite popular, sausage toad-in-the hole. Erm, but from the grill menu they could always have fish, erm, sausages, ham, the normal grill menus. Burgers even, there weren’t many burger places, but if children came in they liked burgers.
JR: They were starting to come in weren’t they?
VC: And lunch time would go through to two o’clock then what was left the staff would have. We had a fairly large staff. We had three waitresses. Each day they would rotate. Three waitresses each day. On a Saturday we would employ extra youngsters. We had two washer-ups and two or three in the kitchen and one pastry cook. Erm, and we would sort of fit in. With a large number of staff, there was always somebody who was going to be away ill or they would be on holiday or something. We would fit in. So..
JR: Did George cook?
VC: Yes. George would usually not allow his staff to cook certain things. He never let them cut and cook cabbage for instance because they didn’t do it properly.
JR: Cabbage? Oh right. (laughter)
VC: Cabbage. So if hey had Savoy cabbage on for instance it had to be done in a certain way and erm, he would always do that and I used to say, what have you got staff for? (laughter) they don’t do it right! So it had to be done correctly. Yes he would, he could, he was, erm, an imaginative cook, erm, couldn’t pastry cook. He would want to add a bit and taste and you can’t do that with pastry cooking, not with cakes and so on, so, but yes he was a good cook.
JR: Yeah.
VC: We would, two of us, would do everything from waiting, from taking money to the till to washing up if we hadn’t got a washer up. On Saturday we would be much busier. and, er, the buses then would bring the people in which they didn’t subsequently but in those days, the early days, the buses would bring the people in from all the villages over to where the old car park was then, you remember, and people would alight from the buses and come in straight away and have a tea or a coffee before they did their shopping. They might come back for lunch later, erm, that all changed eventually with buses taking people to the new towns from Hertford instead of from the villages to the new towns, rather than into Hertford. At that time was more the ************ as far as the buses were concerned.
JR: In term time did you have a lot of visiting parents from Christ’s Hospital for instance with..
VC: When they had their long Saturdays. They had what they called each term, they would have a long Saturday that meant the girls were allowed out all day Parents would come down then and they would take the girls out for the day and yes they would all come in for lunch and they would be queuing up for tables. I’m afraid some of them thought because they were Christ’s Hospital they should have a privileged place but we always felt they should take their turn, I mean we had people who came in every Saturday and they were, you know, valued customers that came in every week. Erm, the same with Haileybury, though Haileybury parents tended on the whole to be much more polite. When they had something at Haileybury we’d get the Haileybury boys in, they were usually quite delightful for people to serve. Most of the Christ’s Hospital were. Erm the Christ’s Hospital Saturdays were always enlivened by the fact that at the end of the day the chain was missing from the loo. We had one of those overhead cisterns and the chain went.....the first time it happened I thought whatever’s happened? Then it happened again on another Christ’s Hospital Saturday. When it happened a third time we started to investigate and apparently it was just
one of those things there. It became erm, de rigueur to nick the toilet chain from Christine’s and whichever Ward......
JR: Did they take it away with them?
VC: Oh yes,
JR: You didn’t just put it on the floor
VC: No, no, no, they took it away and it was hung up as a trophy in one of the Wards depending whether...it died out eventually but I think we found a way of securing it, you know and it died out, or possibly when we went.... when we redid the toilets and they went on to a low level system.
JR: Yes.
VC: Butter wouldn’t melt in their mouths!
JR: What was the seating capacity then. how many could you seat? When you were really full
VC: At the time we had the erm, after we had, you will appreciate when we had round tables it didn’t have as many but I mean as I say very early on we altered that to erm reproduction refectory type tables with wheel back chairs. We sat then about 98 customers if we were full that’s including the window seat. We got 5 along the window seat. Mm, 98.
JR: Fancy! That seems a lot of people to have to cope with at one
time but...
VC: Well, on a Saturday we would have 4 waitresses out but the Saturday, on Saturday we would have local schoolgirls who would be out waitressing for us. Had some nice, some nice girls through our hands. We had some outside and I’d have a couple in the kitchen usually and er, had one of my staff, weekday staff, sort of supervising. I still get girls come up to me in the street sometimes saying Hello Mrs Cole and I say Oh Hello and I’m floundering for names. As you get older it’s more difficult any- way! Floundering for names -I’m Sandra or I’m Alex -and er, Oh yes of course! I’m still trying to think. You were there with so and so. Surnames wouldn’t mean anything to me. Its christian names I knew. And of course there must have been (pause) over a hundred girls who had gone through at that time. Some, yes,
you do remember very well for various reasons. We had erm, when we were still opening on a Sunday....we would start opening on a Sunday at Easter and finish at the end of September. But at Easter, my husband developed, my husband started taking the children away for a holiday, for a short holiday so he would go on Thursday afternoon, sometime on Thursday, that would be a half-day for me. Friday we would be shut anyway and then we would be open Saturday, Sunday and the Bank Holiday Monday and he would come home on Monday night and er the first year he did it with the girls, he took them down to Bournemouth, not Bournemouth, Sandbanks, that’s Sandbanks, there’s a children’s hotel there. When he got back I said, how was that? He said, oh! it was wonderful. The girls enjoyed it and want to go next year etc etc. I found it a bit difficult, he said, with three little girls when they wanted to go to the loo. So I said, he said everybody else you know they had nannies and au pairs so the following year I was not only open on, closed on the Friday, all these days over the holiday, but he took one of my waitresses away and she was an au pair as well, so of course girls like that you do remember particularly!
JR: Who were your suppliers for, erm, raw materials?
VC: Well, we had....
JR: Local?
VC: Erm, Yes. Some local. In the early days we had a wholesaler but wholesalers gradually went out of business as trade in that area went to cash and carries so eventually we used the cash and carry. Locally we dealt with Dewhurst the butcher and with Claydons for fish and with Ernie Wren who was the predecessor of Pearce’s for our bread, or bread and rolls and so on and the local dairy then was in Castle Street erm...
JR: Water Hall?
VC: Nooo..
JR: After that?
VC: The local dairy was (clock chimes) There was Express Dairies but there was something else as well. We’ll say Express Dairies, and they were very good because they would deliver the milk and if during the very busy Saturday I thought we’re not going to last with milk I’ll just pick up the phone and ring them and say can we have another ten pints? And they would be there straight round. This is how local suppliers were then. We all worked together. Yes. Claydons were very good for fish, as they still are. Dewhurst’s has gone of course and Ernie Wren has gone (laughter).
JR: Vegetables?
VC: Vegetables -Bill Norbury, next door but one. We could go in there and select. He also became a very close friend and his wife and I are still probably bestest friends. Because he was a Londoner and he recognised a fellow, fellow Londoners (loud laughter). When we went there, yeah! And he used to deliver our potatoes as well. He would come there and deliver our potatoes but that was only two doors along. We would go in there and we would see what they had, erm, he also had a market stall. He always had a market stall in the indoor market as it was then, erm, on a Saturday. I know during the summer, if he had lots of strawberries over he’d come and say, got a special deal on strawberries for you, would you like those? We’ve already got a few. But you are open tomorrow; you can get rid of them. I’ll give them you for so and so. I said, it’s not the price that matters, you know, I hate that they are wasted, oh alright bring them in! And he’d wheel in a great big tray of strawberries and we’d have strawberry specials on Sunday. Bill was a dear man!
JR: Did you use tablecloths and serviettes and did you need a laundry?
VC: No, we didn’t we, erm, our towels and tea towels went to be laundered because it is important that things like tea towels are, it’s important that they are properly washed and so on and we had, in those days we had, roller towels, you know in the toilets and so on and they were, erm, can’t remember who did them. There were two or three companies in those days, you know, they just erm, took them away and brought them back fresh each week so you had the same number.
JR: So your tables were polished...
VC: Tables were polished top. They were refectory tables and polished tops*******polyurethane over them so they could be wiped clean. We had large style mats on them; we had large style mats, paper napkins. We didn’t run to linen napkins. We didn’t charge those prices. Erm..
JR: It is 12 and you should go perhaps but I was just going to briefly ask you about the neighbouring businesses and how -you did start to tell me a little bit about it before we started recording, that you weren’t very friendly particularly, erm, with the
jewelling, jewellers.
VC: I wasn’t unfriendly. I just didn’t, I wasn’t in and out the house, though as I say with the, as far as the greengrocers were concerned erm, I was invited to their house at one time and I hit it off with his wife. They lived out at Tewin then, and we became very good friends and we subsequently holidayed together, in fact the friendship lasted so long our 40th wedding anniversary when we went off on a cruise they came on the cruise with us as well. I mean that’s what a strong friendship was built there. The other side of us at that time when we first moved in it belonged
to the National Health Executive, erm. That subsequently closed in (clicking of tongue) the late sixties and a branch of the Trustee Savings Bank was opened there, erm. Bearing in mind how...
JR: Was Millett’s there then?
VC: Millett’s was still there on the corner, yes. This is immediately next door where you’ve got the chinese (mumbling words). Millett’s was here when we first moved in and it is one of the old constants in the town. The people that moved in the Bank Manager moved in next door above, they took the flat above and erm, my husband and I said, oh I think I’ll go and have a word and ask them if they’d like to come in and have a cup of tea or a drink with us ‘cos we know what it’s like when we first moved here. We felt very alone. We would’ve liked someone to put out a hand of friendship. I went round and knocked on the door. This lady came down the stairs -broad Scots, younger than us. I said we’re your next door neighbours, and we wondered if you’d like to come and have a coffee or a drink with us. So she said, oh that’s very nice can I bring my wee dog with me? (laughter). So in they came with the wee dog and he hadn’t got very much hair. To my surprise conversation went on for a while and he was only twenty-nine and probably the youngest TSB manager. Well, we became very close friends with them. I had lunch with them on Sunday (laughter). We had lunch together on Sunday -we became very close friends and yes, we were always in and out of each other’s houses. We had like an enclosed sort of courtyard, not a courtyard exactly ’cos there was a sloping roof there but I could open the door of my little kitchen which was at the back then out on to the roof and walk to the window. The window opened into their premises and instead of going all the way out and round into the back of the premises and have to go through all the security systems which the back had there, that used to be our way in and out to each other (laughter). So, yes I did make some very good friends, as I say, they, the people who were at the bank they subsequently moved to another branch but erm, we met as neighbours and the Norbury’s we met as neighbours and they are still two of our closest friends now. We became active in the Chamber of Commerce and my husband was very active in the Chamber of Commerce and he used to help put up the Christmas lights every year in the days when it was done purely by the Chamber of Commerce. We had a small grant from the council, but it was done.... regularly every year we finished up in the casualty department because he’d been falling off his -get cut hands -and be falling off ladders or something and er, but that was fun. We used to........ but I’m going on too long, I’ll come and talk to you another time.
JR: I think that might be a good idea actually to..
VC: I didn’t know there was so much to talk about!!
JR: We’ll do that, yes, we’ll do that
Jean and Valerie together indistinct chatter...........