Interviewed by Peter Ruffles (PR)
Date: 03/08/2009
Transcribed by Susie Hunt
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O2009.2
Interviewee: John Cutler (JC)
Date: 3rd August, 2009
Venue: No2, St Andrews, Penfold Lane, Beesby, Lincs
Interviewer: Peter Ruffles (PR)
Transcriber: Susie Hunt
Typed by: Susie Hunt
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
This is Peter Ruffles recording on the 2nd August 2009 in preparation for a trip to Beesby tomorrow, a rather hazardous trip which may not be achievable, but I’m going to give it a whirl.
It’s John and Marion Cutler that I’m going to try and visit. Trish was coming too and was driving us to Beesby in Lincolnshire, as she enjoys that sort of thing but unfortunately she is having an general anaesthetic to remove a needle, darning needle I think, from her toe which she unfortunately trod on and the end of last week so I will see if I can do the journey by public transport which will involve here to Peterborough, Peterborough to Skegness by rail and then some buses, including a bus on the way back which I’ve had to book, a special visit to Beesby, and it’s going to be at the telephone kiosk in Penfold Lane at half past three.
[discussion]
PR: This is Peter Ruffles recording from the wilds of Lincolnshire not quite the wolds of Lincolnshire, is it nearly...
JC: No, wilds!
PR: Not far away and I’m at the home of John and Marion Cutler. It’s the 3rd August 2009 and I’ve come by various routes because of Trish’s surprise incapacitation. I’ll tell her how I came, John, I think, in a moment or two. Ten past eight from Hertford North, Stevenage, for the Peterborough train to Sleaford, Sleaford to Skegness, then on to a bus to Alford, and then on to a little link bus to the end of the road that leads down into Beesby here and here I am at No 2 St Andrews, Penfold Lane, Beesby, talking to John Cutler. I think you may say why are you talking to a Lincolnshire man? Well, John hasn’t been here all that long.
JC: No, I’m very much a Hertford man, yeah.
PR: How did it come about that you came here then, John.
JC: Well, we decided to look for pastures new. After living for some years in the same place, thought perhaps we’ll go off somewhere else, and er we thought of Norfolk first and then the properties down there were a bit beyond our reach, as you might say, so um we then looked in Lincolnshire. We had one or two friends here who had previously lived in Hertford Heath, and they told us about it. So we came up here and started looking around. We ended up in Lincolnshire in 1995, fourteen years ago. First at Mablethorpe and spent about four years there, and then we arrived here ten years ago. So this is where we are, now. No, it’s just that some people think they would like to see pastures new and that is what we did.
PR: Yes, and you’re here in.. it’s a large house, isn’t it?
JC: Yes, it’s got three bedrooms, and, um, sitting room, large kitchen and utility room out the back, so it is an ex-council, built by the council in the early 50s. A block of four and erm, we didn’t purchase it from the council it had already been previously bought by someone else who then sold it to us. So it is an ex-council house. The other three are still owned by the council, well its now a housing association. There’s a lot of housing associations now, arn’t there. So, um you know, we’ve been here.. the time seems to have flown, it’s been ten years.
PR: I suppose because there is much more space around you they could build bigger houses than they would’ve.....
JC: They don’t these days do they, I mean lucky if you get a garden now.
PR: You’ve got open fields.
JC: Oh, all round, yeah, very much so.
PR: And there’s a garden as well.
JC: Yes, very large garden.
PR: Obviously, yes, can’t see the end of it
JC: No, no, as I say, as all the trees are in leaf at the moment, so you can’t see the top. No it is quite large. We’ve got a vegetable patch and flower beds. We do our best to keep it looking good.
PR: Now, we come obviously to talk about your memories of I suppose, Hertford. Does absence make the heart grow fonder would you say or are you forgetting Hertford quite well?
JC: No, not at all. I keep very much in touch, you know, it’s still very much part of our life for many years, the Hertford area and er I always enjoy coming back when I get the opportunity to have a look round, visit relatives and friends. It’s about four and a half years since I last came but I shall be coming again sometime and I always look forward to that.
PR: Yes.
JC: And keep in touch with people like yourself, erm, you know, what’s going on down there and so on.
PR: Well, you’re a famous letter writer!
JC: Yes, well, I try and do my best, (little laugh).
PR: Your handwriting - I think the postmen in Hertford recognise it!
JC: Probably so (laugh), yes I wouldn’t be at all surprised. but, no, erm, it’s funny talk about letter writing being recognised, some people recognise my voice quite readily. I spoke to David Poole on the phone a couple of weeks ago. He’s now Mayor of Hertford as you know, and an old school pal. Oh, thanks dear...
[Marion enters - indistinct discussion]
No anyway, David’s an old school classmate of mine at school and erm we exchanged letters once or twice and one evening he phoned up and said good lord your voice sound the same as it did when we were at school! So I said that’s about the only thing about me that hasn’t aged then!
PR: That’s the old Cowper school then?
JC: The old Cowper school, yes. So a lot of the old Cowper boys’ve gone on to do well. David’s one of them. Reg Creasy’s another. Remember Reg Creasy? Not in my time of course but he was a pupil there and er a lot of ex-pupils have done well but as I say David and Reg Creasy I do know of and erm it was quite a good school, and you know I had a good time there and learned a lot from it.
PR: Who was head in your day?
JC: Mr Stalley, Cyril Stalley.
PR: The famous Mr Stalley!
JC: Yes, he was quite well known. I think he’d been at the school as deputy head or something before he took over as head master. I believe there was a Mr Strubell, you might have heard of, who was the head master way back. I think Mr Stalley took over from him, so he must have done about 30 or 40 years there until he finally retired, Mr Stalley. No he was quite a nice chap. He lived in the school house next to the school. They’ve all gone now, of course, they’ve been demolished and erm of course Len Green er who you’ve heard of a lot, he was deputy head, really and erm he was the our.. form teacher in the fourth year, our final year at school because we left at 15 then. So he taught the fourth year class and of course I met him many times after leaving school, very often bumped into him in the town. It was always good to see him. And of course, he also, erm, after his, I think before and after his retirement he was active in a lot of organisations in the town.
PR: Yes.
JC: And of course he, well like you and Eddie Roche now do he used to go round with his slides doing talks to people, didn’t he?
PR: Yes, we got some of those Mr Stalley slides that Len Green had.********copies to the erm ten or twelve which we quite often show. Baden Brown has got the big collection. He’s the custodian.
JC: Yeah, I’m with you.
PR: But John, we’d better go back to the beginning, find out where you were born and... ?
JC: Well, er, I say I lived on Hertford Heath all my life, well until I moved up here, so I was about...so I’ve lived on Hertford Heath about 55 years really. I was actually born in the County hospital but I say I’ve lived on Hertford Heath and erm my earliest recollections are the last two or three years of World War II. Erm, when we used to have to scurry out of the house and to erm a shelter somewhere. Anderson shelters, you’ve probably heard of and er, try and find shelter or just stay put where we were otherwise.
PR: So when you say “we” were you the only.. ?
JC: My mother and er my step dad. We lived in a little cottage along the London Road and my grandparents lived just across the road. You know all families lived quite close in those days. So yes a case of erm..
PR: What number was your cottage, was it on the main road itself then?
JC: Yeah, we lived in a cottage, I don’t know if you remember where the post office used to be?
PR: Georges or?
JC: Yeah, well er there’s three little cottages right next door to it.
PR: Between the post office and the garage?
JC: Yes that’s right. One of them. I remember one night erm I was having a bath. You know, the old tin bath people used to use? Erm, in front of the fire, and erm, a doodle bug dropped in a field behind not far from our house and one effect that had, apart from the usual damage, it sent soot down the chimney, and having just been washed, I got covered in soot and had to be done all over again!
PR: (Laughs)
JC: So that’s one of my early memories of the war. And erm seeing various damaged buildings in the village, you know, one of them a bit further down the London Road was burned down as the result of bombing and other houses were damaged so erm obviously being a young kid I didn’t probably appreciate the seriousness of it all but er, I can remember say when I was very young my mother carrying me somewhere for safety. I can just about remember that!
One thing I don’t remember erm when I was maybe only a few months old, cos I was born just two months before the war started, July ‘39, and one night erm I think my mother had taken me to my grandparents house across the road, and put me in a cot upstairs. A land mine dropped not far away brought the ceiling down and all the debris fell on my cot and everyone had to rush upstairs and uncover me. So I managed to survive that one thanks to them. (laugh). So that’s the sort of things people had... well. We were one of the lucky ones, I mean, some people got killed in these raids, didn’t they? Unfortunately.
PR: Yes, yes.
JC: All our family survived and also some relatives who were serving in World War II, three or four of them all came back so our family were relatively unscathed from that lot.
PR: Were you the only child?
JC: No, I’ve got three more sisters, one lives in Stansted Abbotts, one in Suffolk and one in the north of Scotland.
PR: Older or younger?
JC: All younger, yeah, I’m the oldest one. Er, we keep in touch, (cough) excuse me, by telephone and letter but of course as we’re scattered we don’t see each other a lot. That’s the way it goes doesn’t it?
PR: Yes, that’s the way life unfolds.
JC: It does, yes, so, erm...
PR: My mum had an uncle living opposite you at that time.
JC: Oh, Mr Childs. Yes, I remember your book Peter, you mention Mr Jim Childs. Yes, he lived in a cottage near enough opposite where the post office used to be, Georges shop, you know. He lived there with Mrs Edie Childs was his wife. She well remembers the local post lady, Edie, and er…
PR: Yes, Aunt Edie I used to call her!
JC: Yes, I suppose so, well of course, the other thing she used to play the squeeze box thing whatever it’s called. I well remember when they had concerts in the village hall. She often got on the stage and did a performance or sometimes in people’s homes when the air raids were on I think she did her best to cheer everybody up by playing that. I can just about remember seeing her with it and hearing it. I expect older people in the village might well remember Mrs Childs doing that.
PR: Yes, they had some daughters, but erm I would have seen them in my childhood...
JC: Yes, there was erm Poppy, Betty, Amy and Molly, I think. I don’t think there were any sons, just the four girls. ( a great deal of rustling of something loud) I don’t know whether any of them are still around, of course they all moved away. Molly stayed in the village got married and I know she died a long time ago, but the other three I don’t know, but erm, I knew them all quite well and er, erm, your uncle he erm, he had one of the allotments used to be at the back of those houses in London Road. There used to be all allotments behind there, and er he erm, along with my grandparents and others they had these plots you know for vegetables, well some had chickens on them, ducks and geese and one man he even had a pig sty. There was quite a mixture of stuff there. Mr Childs used to have some nice raspberry bushes next to my granddad’s plot and I sometimes used to go up there and nick a few when he wasn’t looking.
PR: Yeah, ha!
JC: (Laughs) It is the sort of thing kids do, I mean. It is what we used to do as kids, go scrumping in the orchard. There was a large house along the London Road called Heathfield, and first it was privately owned then it became an old peoples’ home, Heathfield, I don’t know if you remember it? It was there as an old peoples’ home. Anyway, it had a very large orchard out the back and myself and my friends used to go camping erm over the common land, off we’d go with tents and have a few days up there during the summer holidays from school, and erm get up in the morning and make our way to this orchard and see what we could get hold of then we’d creep back to the tent to you know see what loot we’d managed to pick up.
PR: Ah! Good years!
JC: Yes, they certainly were.
PR: Aunt Edie was one of the Webb family.
JC: Yeah, I believe she was, Peter, yes. I seem to remember there was a very large Webb family in the village at one time and she was related to them. The other large families in the village were the Childs family to which you are connected. My grandmother was also a Childs and then the Camp family, another big family, the Phypers family and erm in days gone by you could say those families near enough formed the population of the village. *****************very much at all, and if you’re talking about anybody you had to be careful what you said. (laughter)
PR: Well...presumably you went to the village school, John?
JC: Yes, Hertford Heath School. The old school which used to be along Mount Pleasant and was converted into flats well after the new school was built. The old school in Mount Pleasant as I say, the old building is still there, looks still very much like a school, sort of left it looking like it was.
PR: Yes.
JC: And, erm, yeah in those days, I don’t know about the school, the new school, it used to accommodate about 90 pupils. And when I started school in 1944 the war was still on so we sometimes used to be sent home early if it was thought a bombing raid was coming, and also my first year or two at school erm, pupils up to 14 used to be there, you know, the secondary education had not been introduced then, so, of course, you left school at 14, so there were children aged between 5 and 14 in the same school, and I think the Education Act after 1944 came into being in about 1946 and then of course the school just looked after pupils aged between 5 and 11.
Yeah, I remember a lot about the school. I remember we use to have a large hall there where we had assembly and sometimes indoor games . There was a playground at the back and right at the end of the playground were the toilets, I mean the school toilets, they often used to be outside in the old schools (laugh) so that was round the back and a bit further beyond there was a piece of ground which had a sort of small playing field, to play football and so on and very early on I can remember the older pupils, like 13 or 14 year olds that were there then had little vegetable plots. They were encouraged to things in them. So I remember that quite well.
And, erm, the Headmaster was Mr Williams at that time erm he was rather strict and you know, he could easily lose his cool, he wouldn’t stand for any nonsense. He was a good...I wouldn’t say he was a bad man, he was ok, it was just that he was very strict in the classroom. If somebody talked out of turn well they knew all about it. That’s how he was. But then in about 1948/49 he died suddenly. Whether it was a heart attack or not I can’t remember now. He died. So we went to school one morning and heard about this and er, the school had to close. Mrs Williams, his wife, she was also a teacher and she was left with two relatively young children and erm, anyway they got one or two temporary teachers in and eventually, er, Mrs Williams was made head of the school and erm, we had a Miss Knight there who used to take the juniors, she was a lovely lady.
I remember her very well and there was a Mr Procter, and a Miss Cox, or and we also had later on a Mr Windybank, he was a retired army officer and of course, he had that sort of bearing. Anyway we got on all right with him and he started organising the cricket and football at school, so instead of mucking about in this little playing field at the top he started organising teams to play other schools and anyway, so that’s what I remember most about Hertford Heath School.
PR: Mr Williams, you sayhad got a short temper, but...he had to...
JC: He pounced on anybody who misbehaved in the class.
PR: Was he overweight or anything like that when....any suggestion he was going to keel over?
JC: No, not that I remember, Peter though as I say it’s a long time ago now, no, er he was rather shortish and er, I wouldn’t say he was overweight at all.
PR: So did you as a family rely on the shops in Hertford Heath?
JC: Yes, well we used to go into Hertford only they had lots of little shops in Hertford Heath in those days. But, er, we used to go to Hertford on the bus and er, you know mum used to go sometimes in the company of my grandma. She always used to go on a Monday morning. You know, people used to do certain things on certain days then, didn’t they? Her shopping day was Monday and erm I used to go and help her sometimes, ******some nice tasty buns from Harry Young’s bakery. The bakery was at The Wash. There’s a row of shops roughly opposite the Castle Hall. Now he was the last one as you are proceeding up The Wash towards Old Cross, the last one on the right of this row of shops.
Down the side of it was a little lane which erm ********* and erm Harry Young’s shop was there so gran used to go in there so I’d have my treat there for helping out with the shopping, and erm, but no, sometimes I’d be taken to Foster’s Menswear in Fore Street if I needed any new school clothes.
PR: That was in the wide bit of........
JC: Yeah, in the wide bit of Fore Street.
PR: Near the Shire Hall.
JC: Yes that’s right, it was there for years. I used to get taken there sometimes to get fitted up with clothes, and erm anyway Grandma, her shopping, a lot of her shopping would be at a shop called Walkers Stores in Maidenhead Street. Some older people might remember that. It was somewhere near Woolworths, somewhere just there for groceries and so on. Of course everything was weighed in front of you then, no packaging of stuff. It was all done on the spot. I remember it was a very spacious shop.
PR: Was it called Walker’s World Stores?
JC: It may have been, Peter, I know it was Walkers, but she used to do any shopping outside the village she used to mainly get it there. That was Walkers and then a little bit further up sometimes she’d go in the International Stores. That was on the same side, again close to Woolworths and erm...
PR: Did she choose those because she was a known customer, as it were, and got served because she was regular or, it wasn’t because it was cheaper or...
JC: I think erm, maybe it was a bit cheaper, but, you know I think it was just it was the shops she was used to going into for many years, before my time you know, so mainly used those two along Maidenhead Street.
PR: We’d better give her a position in the family. Was she your mothers mother... did she live to be quite elderly then?
JC: She was 85. Yes she’s buried at Hertford Heath churchyard, with grandfather and other members of the family.
PR: And that name would have been - she was Mrs ?
JC: Yes, her name was Mrs Cutler and that was my mother’s maiden name, and I adopted my mother’s maiden name, that’s why I’ve got that same surname.
PR: Right, yes, so that might confuse the listeners if you....
JC: No, no I adopted my mother’s maiden name for various reasons, so that’s er, say, that erm, see, she married my step father in, Sid, in 1942, Sid Jackson, so of course she became Mrs Jackson then and erm I say, they had three daughters my step sisters but we all, we were all one family, so we kept together, always have been and erm. I say, Sid was a very good step father I was very fortunate because you know in some families it doesn’t always work out well does it, you know, but I was very lucky, he was a very good chap.
PR: In one of your letters, you painted a really nice picture of, in detail, of Woolworths.
JC: Yes, yes, my first job on leaving school. I had worked there on Saturdays while I was still at school erm yes some of the other pupils, mostly the girls. You see, the Longmore school near All Saints was the girls’ section of Hertford secondary in those days and the boys were at the Cowper school. While a lot of the girls used to serve in the shop on a Saturday and I remember they wanted a stockroom hand, you know, for Saturdays so I went along there and presented myself to Mr Marsh the manager and erm he also was an ex-military man but obviously he realised he wasn’t dealing with soldiers any more, he was managing young women in the shop, a different kettle of fish, and I think he adapted quite well.
PR: Yes I do remember him. He had a son........
JC: Yes, I remember the son, he used to come in the shop, perhaps out of school and wait for his dad to finish to take him home wherever they lived.
PR: Fordwich…
JC: Oh, is that. I think he was manager there for quite some years because my mother had also worked there you know, doing very well and in fact he thought a lot of her. Often after **********she had to give up, when she went shopping in there he always used to ask when was she coming back, and he thought very highly of her.
PR: Of course, David Poole’s wife Joyce worked.....
JC: So David was saying. Well, that’d be after my time there. Erm I remember saw David a few times after we left school and er as I say I worked there for quite a while and er, yes it was very different in those days, don’t know if you can remember it as it used to be, before it was sort of modernised it had these very large electric lamps, wooden floor and these very large counters with one or two shop assistants behind each one. Each different section, er. These large counters each selling a different kind of goods, you know. I think when you went in on the right hand side there was a sweet stall first so and then further up you’d find like the other departments as it were and the electrical department at the back. I remember that one. Of course, erm, the stock room was up the top.
You used to get up there by lift and erm when we had a delivery they used to come down this lane by Harry Young’s shop, and the lorries used to pull up and I’d help to unload and then get the stuff in the lift and go upstairs with it and er store it. It was a very large stock room. Had all these big shelves and erm used to have to put the stuff on these shelves and then also take things down to the shop when the counters needed re-stocking. That was mostly what I did and the other thing was to sweep the floor after closing time. Erm, that was mainly what I did there you know, help in the stock room.
PR: Of course they had a tea bar down there at one time didn’t they?
JC: I do remember it! And that was right at the far end where the ******had his electrical stall. Right at the far end cos I remember as a young child being taken there and yes that was there.
PR: It seemed, I don’t know whether it did, it seemed to have a higher counter.
JC: Yes, this tea bar was quite high cos I remember I was a youngster and people used to sit on stools by the tea bar. Even then, being quite young used to have a job to reach over the top (laugh). Yeah I remember that very well.
PR: The other thing I remember they kept in Woolworths longer than most shops were the gas lights, erm...
JC: Yes, erm, they were still there certainly at the time I worked there. About... I can’t remember when they were removed but probably before the modernisation which I think took place about 1970s or perhaps a bit before, you know when they had it all altered then.
PR: They used to have a sort of wide mesh net round the bowl, so that if one did break it would catch most of the glass.
JC: Yes I remember that quite well. Yes that was how it was!
PR: The weighing machine?
JC: The very large one. It was just inside the door. You know, the erm the dial on it was about, cor! two foot in diameter. At least that! Unusally coloured red I think. Yep, and so that’s one thing as a kid, you know, you want to jump on it see how much you weighed. That was quite popular there and if I remember rightly all the Woolworths stores had one like that.
PR: Yes, yes.
JC: You erm, you may have heard of Embassy records, that used to be sold in the Woolworths stores? As far as I can recall they didn’t have a counter selling them in Hertford. I don’t think so. I could stand corrected there but I don’t remember it unless it was before my time.
PR: It was the Woolworths brand label.
JC: Yes, it was, I think, Woolworths own brand, you know, and they may have done at the Hoddesdon store but I don’t think.........
PR: I don’t know where the Hoddesdon one would be.
JC: In those days it was right at the top of the High Street, going up towards Broxbourne.
PR: Ah, near The Golden Lion.
JC: Yeah, right up there, erm that’s where it was at one time. I remember going in there, and at one time Hoddesdon, Mr Cutler, no relation. was the manager, (laugh) in fact his wife Mrs Cutler, worked at the Hertford Store when I was there. Erm, I say it was a long time ago.
PR: Anybody frighten you when you were a kid, or were you never frightened of, I mean there were no people to avoid, no people on street corners you hoped you wouldn’t see?
JC: No, not really, not that I recall.
PR: Not Maudy Mead with her firewood or*********Maudy mead selling her firewood on Boots corner.
JC: I can’t remember that. We used to sometimes erm, what was it now, one or two people in the village, people we were frightened of, well we respected them, was the local policeman.
PR: Yes.
JC: If you saw him coming you had to watch out. He’s come and say - Now what are you boys up to? I know, we went one day, some friends and myself we went down the wood with an old wooden truck on wheels to get some firewood, bits that had fallen off trees and PC Richards who was one of the local constables, he saw us. Ah where you get that box ? And collecting wood on a Sunday, he said. It was a Sunday, that was another thing, he put it in his notebook I think. We didn’t hear any more. (laugh).
PR: I think he came into Hertford a bit didn’t he?
JC: Yes, because we had three police houses in the village, I think there were two basically village policemen who perhaps also did duties elsewhere. One lived in the village but he was also posted elsewhere so I think the actual village policemen there were two of them. One lived in the house in London Road and one at Church Hill, not far from the church. In fact there were two police houses in London Road, one was the Sergeant, Jack Pearman, he was a village policeman who got promoted to Sergeant so he got posted elsewhere, and then near the shop at that end of London Road there was another policehouse where PC McLean used to live.
And, erm, as I say PC Richards lived in Church Hill, so we had actually three policeman living in the village at that time, and so they kept us all on our toes, and if we were sort of frightened of anybody as you might say I suppose it was them, but it wasn’t a bad thing.
PR: No, but after you’d worked in Woolworths straight from school did you, I mean your handwriting, everything is so perfectly done, meticulous script and that sort of thing, did that take you into work at Goldings?
JC: Well, I went to the County Council at County Hall from Woolworths. I was in, what was then the Health Department under Dr Dunlop, the Medical Officer in those days. Again it’s a name some older people might recall. I suppose one of my best subjects was English, and the handwriting, helped me so I was doing, from that time, mainly office work for the rest of my working life really. Writing letters and so on.
Yes, I went to the Health Department and Dr Dunlop was the County Medical Officer, a rather small man and quite approachable. One day I rather sheepishly asked him Are you anything to do with the Dunlop rubber company? He said, well, his answer was, I am related to some of the Dunlop family but I don’t get any money out of it! (laughter). That was the answer he gave.
I had various other jobs in Hertford, and erm, over the years, you know. I did work for the Chaseside Engineering Company. I don’t know if you remember that. It used to be, used to go up by the East Station, past the East Station over the old railway line – I expect that’s gone now
PR: You can see the gate post crossing still in place.
JC: Well, when I went to Chaseside Engineering in the late ‘50s I believe it was still in use to a certain extent. Used to go over there and bear round to the right go along that road, can’t remember the name of that road now, and then turn left into Gashouse lane. There was a lot of industry down there at that time and Chaseside Engineering had its factory down there.
They use to make a lot of things like tractors, fork-lift trucks, dumpers all sorts, but the fork-lift truck was sort of world renowned. They used to export it all over the place, in fact, one of the chaps in the office at Chaseside used to go abroad on sales trips so I worked there for sometime. Several other people from Hertford Heath used to work there too. It was quite a big employer. There was another factory in Church Street, Ware. I can’t remember precisely where it was but ..
PR: There was Chaseside Motors.
JC: That was along where Gascoyne Way is now.
PR: At the bottom of Pegs Lane, near West Street
JC: I can’t remember now if it was the same owners, or just the same name, but Chaseside Engineering Company was owned by the Jackson family Mr Peter Jackson I think it was, Managing Director. You used to see him come in occasionally. He always wore a spotted dickie-bow. He always looked very smart. He did say Hello to you! That was Chaseside Engineering Company. Quite a large staff there.
I worked there about three years or so I suppose and erm, I went from there to Ekins the builders down by the ********* and they used to...I don’t know if the office is still there but you go past the library and turn off to the right like going to McMullens then I think you branch off to the left and Ekins was somewhere there, and the entrance to the office, they had a rather grand entrance
PR: Sort of portico.
JC: That’s it and they had a very large yard out the back with workshops and so on and buildings inside you know were, you had this rather grand entrance but it wasn’t that grand inside. It was like an old house really. We had three directors working there and I worked there for a few years.
PR: Wasn’t Mr Jackson living on the number 6 Hartham Lane I think it was. He worked at Ekins and lived in the house on the left of that long frontage.
JC: Oh yes Mr Jackson. He was rather elderly I think. Yes I do remember him. I can’t remember what he did there. When I was there he used to - as I say he was getting towards retirement - he was a nice old chap, I often used to talk to him, and…
PR: His daughter, Wendy, still lives in Hertford I think. It’s just Wendy I remember.
JC: Yes, Mr Jackson worked there and I think there was a Mr Denman in charge.
[untranscribed matter - discussion]
PR: We must be getting to Goldings in a minute.
JC: Yes, sure. I was there more recently, of course.
PR: It’s a very different place today. I’ve been delivering election leaflets up there twice this year. It’s been bi-elections in June or was it July. My own in the beginning of June ****************
JC: Right, when you’re ready Peter.
PR: You were just about, before we turned over the tape to just give us a quick tour of the fish and chip shops.
JC: Well, when we were at school, during our lunch break often meant going to the fish and chip shops to buy
PR: Did you have no school dinners then?
JC: Oh, yes there were school dinners available and er, I can’t remember where they were served, it wouldn’t have been the Cowper school, cos they didn’t have a room there. I’ve got a feeling it was at the Longmore school. Or it might have been St John’s Hall. I never had school dinners myself so I can’t remember. They used to have school dinners somewhere. Other than that fish and chips. There were two next to each other in Railway Street. There was Mr Tovell, a rather tall man and that was a restaurant as well. You could sit down and have your fish and chips and cups of tea or whatever. Right next door almost was Mr Donahugh’s fish and chip shop. That was just sort of take away. You couldn’t sit down in that one.
Then there was this one at Cowbridge. We used to go to that one when we attended the Cowbridge centre from Cowper school. We used to have metal work, pottery, woodwork classes at the Cowbridge centre and the little chip shop was quite close by. I suppose it’s gone now but that’s er, we used to adjourn there at lunch time. I used to go to Cowbridge about once a week all day as the Cowper school didn’t have its own facilities. This Cowbridge centre was used for that. I suppose when they built the new school at Balls Park they had it all in one.
So, there’s those fish and chip shops, there were others but I can’t place them now, but certainly it’s rather peculiar having two next door to each other in Railway Street. There’s various sweet shops that have now gone. Of course Woolworths sold sweets but there were lots of others there as well. The Cull family had a little shop opposite the Shire Hall. I guess you remember the Culls. I think it was a newsagents as well as confectionery and there’s lots of others in the town.
PR: The newsagents today are not quite sure whether the Culls sold papers.
JC: No, I remember going there to buy sweets, and several other little shops in the town sold sweets then, but things change so much that I think... and cafes, of course, there were lots of them dotted all over the town. You remember the old arcade, well, I remember a lot of the shops up there. There was Mr Cullen who had the radio and tv shop about halfway up there. Radio and television sets, dansette record players, which were available there. Remember those?
My first record player, I mean I remember having an old wind up gramophone but the dansette record player was sort of mass produced I think in the mid-50s and right at the end of the arcade like the bus station end there was a large cafe there which you may remember. Right in the corner.
PR: There was a hairdresser called Minor Brown opposite there… forgotten what it was called.
JC: I think they just called it the Arcade Cafe I often used to go in there. It was quite a popular place and erm they had one right in the corner of the bus station.
PR: Oh yes, in the right hand corner.
JC: That was quite popular for people getting on and off buses, you know, and that eventually went when the bus station was redeveloped.
PR: So, let’s get into Goldings.
JC: Yeah! Well I went up there to work in about 1974 well it was the last place I worked at and I stayed there about 20 years or so. Well, it was originally, as you may know a private house. I can’t remember who owned it but it was a private house when originally built. Then Dr Barnardo’s took it over in I think 1920-21 and erm they moved out I think in the late ‘60s and the County Council then bought it so I think, you know, they were cramped for space at County Hall.
The Highways Department was up there at County Hall, but anyway, they bought the Goldings mansion so the Highways staff was shipped out to there. That was before I was there and they had to make various alterations to it, but a lot of it was left. It’s quite a magnificent building and you know when I first went there the former chapel was still there, though of course no longer used as such. Then they had the orangery out the back. I never did ask whether that meant they grew fruit in there. I don’t know, I never did think to ask! They used that as a storeroom what was known as the orangery, and erm then they had a little canteen and bar up there, and believe it or not in the days of Barnardo’s it had been the sick bay.
(Laughter)
When the County Council put their staff up there they made it into, well, it was like a bar, you know, the staff used to volunteer to serve behind the bar, you know the Goldings sports and social club, various staff volunteered to serve behind the bar, there was an area where you could sit and have a sandwich or something and also in the afternoon there was just out the back there was a large area where they played billiards and darts, because I played darts in there, like a little recreation room at the back of the bar. So that’s what the County Council did with what was once the sick bay and the boy’s school, and erm, then of course they had lovely grounds there and we used to play cricket and that sometimes at lunchtime or after work on the grounds there.
I think, I can’t remember if there was a tennis court there or not. I never played tennis, but I have a feeling there was one up there somewhere. Some of the staff used to partake and erm, so you know it was quite good the sports club they had all sorts of activities organised, amongst the staff, playing various games.
As I say there was tennis, football and cricket used to be played and - I think tennis. A game of rounders sometimes at lunchtime.
PR: Was there any transport for people ...
JC: Yes. When I used, when I first went there to work. I didn’t have a car until not long before I left but in my case I used to catch a bus from Hertford Heath to Hertford and then catch a bus to Stevenage from Hertford Bus Station route 390 to Stevenage. That stopped at Goldings. I used to go mainly to and from the town but then later I think in the same year I started there they started a bus service provided by the County Council to and from the town at lunchtime and at first they used to pick up from Hertford in the morning and take people back at night, but I think the morning and evening ones were abandoned because not many people used them but the lunch time one remained up to the time I left and well, Tom Graves he used to drive the coach, Tom. I believe he’s still around. I saw something in the Mercury the other week. Didn’t he and his wife celebrate their Diamond Wedding?
PR: Yes, yes. He hasn’t changed much.
JC: I recognised the face straight away. So from about 1974 at least until the time I left they provided this coach at least to get people to and from the town at lunchtime, if they wanted to go into the town for lunch or do shopping so that was quite useful.
PR: And Alan Greening and you. Did you work close to each other or just somewhere else on the premises as it were?
JC: Oh Alan? Yes, we weren’t in the same department but I used to, you know different sections of the department, had to come into contact on various matters and I think Alan started up there a couple of years after I went there, and I think he was in...I was in the Highways Maintenance Section in the office and I think Alan...was it Development Control you know the Highway side of Development Control? I think he worked in that section.. Well obviously he’ll correct me if you ask him but...so we used different sections to come into contact and you know I got to know him that way I think. Of course he started... I think he was one of the founder members of the History Society was he not, Peter?
PR: Yes, yes he was the founder member.
JC: Of course, apart from talking about work he’d sometimes talk about other matters and of course being interested in local history as I was I suppose I got to know him more that way. He used to give me the History Society’s newsletters, so that’s how I got to know him as I say he was a work colleague and also through local history. I think he’s done a brilliant job, and still involved in some ways I think.
PR: Well, he’s been our Treasurer since we started this.
JC: What, the Oral History Society?
PR: The Oral History, yes. So, John, we’ll put you...you’ll be on our mailing list for as long as we go on. We took a sabbatical couple of years and went into semi-hibernation and we are just beginning to come out by inviting some new people to join and we may say we’ve got a lovely archive and we’ll finish there or we may add one or two from time to time like you. We always send a card out each Christmas and Alan does the newsletter and it goes to a whole mixture of people ‘cos we’ve recorded Mrs Abel Smith for example before she died.
JC: Dorothy is it?
PR: Well, her mother!
JC: Oh her mother. I knew Dorothy and her brother Ralph. I don’t know if they still live at Watton-at-Stone?
PR: Yes, they’re still there. And so we decided we’d get the full mixture of people and not just rely on old people who couldn’t read and write anymore. That’s what often ************But I’ll leave this form with you John and it’s got two sides to it and you’ll be able to just fill in as much as you want to on it. The back side says can we use this for various reasons. Well, most people just say anything yes, it’s not very clear...I’ll leave that for you and you can pop it in the post one day. Now I’m looking at the clock thinking I’ve got to...
JC: You’ve got to go back today, have you? You’re welcome to stay.
PR: No, no, It’s a working day tomorrow.
JC: Council meetings and so on?
PR: Yes, yes. I’m missing one tonight but...mustn’t make a habit of it but.....Anything else we ought to cover because I think we’ve probably covered the ground haven’t we?
JC: Yeah, well the things I could have obviously....I could go on all day...the things I do remember also ..I can write some more down for you sometime.
PR: Yes that would be good.
JC: The old cattle market used to be in Fore Street The Ram. I can remember the cows literally being driven along Fore Street and sort of shooed up this little alley way by The Ram and some of the old boys I think from the lodging house that was in the back of Turbo Fish and Chip shop I think.
PR: Yes, yes, the old Lion’s Head.
JC: Yes there was a little alley way between the two fish and chip shops I think that led to this lodging house. Some of the old boys living in it to earn themselves a bob or two used to help out with driving the cattle up there. I remember that. Another one when we were at school we called them the traffic collectors on duty. There was the Dimsdale which was rather posh in those days. All the big cars used to pull in there and it’d got a rather narrow drive in there hadn’t it, probably still has, and all the posh cars used to go up. And one old boy, he came from there if he saw one of the big cars he used to stand near the entrance to this driveway into the back of the Dim, you see and he’d stand there and he saw a posh car coming and if it, you know, he’d get out his walking stick hold that up, stop the other traffic coming so the posh car could get in, probably get a tip. So we always said the traffic collectors are on duty today!
PR: Yes, look for the main chance! You don’t know his name do you?
JC: I can’t remember. There’s a lot of these old boys used to be around the town. I just know we used to call them traffic collectors. He used to have a cap and a sort of knotted scarf round his neck, that sort of dress. I think a lot of them dressed like that but as far as the lodging house is concerned I believe Danny at one time lived there and…
PR: Oh Danny, yes,
JC: He was quite a character. I think he did at one time live there but I didn’t know the name. There was quite a few but I didn’t know the names of them.
PR: No Danny and his dog, Toby.
JC: Yes, very much part of Hertford wasn’t he. Part of the scenery!
PR: Well, that’s been good. We’ve got some stuff in and I must go and see if this bus comes.
JC: Where’s it taking you to from here Peter?
PR: Oh, Chapel St Leonards.
JC: Are you sure you’ll be all right?
PR: Yes, yes.
END OF RECORDING
JC: If your bus doesn’t turn up, come back here!