Interviewed by Peter Ruffles (PR)
Date: 21/02/2002
Transcribed by Peter Ruffles
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording No: O2002.9
Interviewee: Catherine Taylor (Cath) (CT)
Date: 21st February 2002
Venue: 95 Queens Road Hertford
Interviewer: Peter Ruffles (PR)
Transcriber: Peter Ruffles
Typed by: Freda Joshua
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
PR: This is Peter Ruffles on a Thursday morning, just been to Bengeo Church, at home now in scullery, phone’s ringing, clocks ticking before going off to Queens Road to see Cath Taylor who’s going to talk to us as part of our little experiment to see what value there may be in speaking to people younger than most of the people that we speak to in our Oral History Group
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PR: So, I’d better say ‘This is Peter Ruffles at 95 Queens Road. Today with Catherine Taylor’ .... so, where were you born?
CT: I was born at the QEII at Welwyn Garden City on the 13 September 1983.
PR: And where were people living then?
CT: We were living in Valeside, Hertford and we moved here when I was nearly 3. Been here a long time.
PR: So you don’t remember Valeside much?
CT: No. The only thing, I think is my first memory, is driving away in the car and looking back at the house and there were all jam jars in the car’s back shelf. That’s all I remember. I don’t remember inside the house
PR: So then, what happened to your life? When you were about 4 or 5, did you start education?
CT: Yes. Nursery and then I started school just before I was 5. I can remember starting school, and I can remember when I was in nursery, a Teddy Bears Picnic, and I can remember the Teddy that I took. I’ve no idea where it was that we went.
PR: What happened to the Teddy?
CT: I’ve still got it, it’s upstairs.
PR: Where was the nursery?
CT: Hertingfordbury School at Birch Green.
PR: That school building (Hertingfordbury Cowper), most of it is a very old building.
CT: Mm. They built a new bit just before I left the school, but most of it is still the old bit.
PR: Do you have warm feelings for that school?
CT: Yeah. I really did enjoy primary school .... because it’s quite a small school and everybody knew everybody else and the classes were two years together in a class.
PR: But you didn’t walk to school. Presumably ...
CT: Yes. And Mum was always late picking me up. I was the last one standing outside school. She used to really annoy me.
PR: Where did your friends at that school come from then?
CT: A few did live in the village, in Hertingfordbury and Birch Green and around there.
PR: Did they get some priority – wasn’t it really their school?
CT: They did get a bit of a priority – but then someone in my class lived in Potters Bar and .... I think most people were from around here.
PR: It’s a very popular school ... a big pull. But it would be really serious if the village children didn’t get there.
CT: I think there was a lot of competition to get into the school
PR: There’s a big board up in the hall of all the headmasters which goes back into the last century.
So then what happened? You didn’t do an 11+ exam?
CT: No, but we were the first year to do the SATs exam. We just went into school one day and they said, ‘We’re just doing a test’. Because nowadays they all revise for it. We didn’t, we just went in.
PR: That’s what it was meant to be. Just taking it in your stride. Then it changed – but I expect, because you were the first they did what it was meant to be. A year or two later you’d have been coached for it. But then .... Simon Balle. Was that your choice?
CT: Well, because Claire was there before me I always sort of assumed. I did look round the other schools, but then it was my favourite, my first choice – and we lived so close to it as well.
PR: .... and you’ve regretted it ever since because it’s a bit of a rubbish school .... (tongue in cheek!)
CT: (Indignant) No! It’s a good school. I enjoyed it there. It’s great. My friend across the road, Rhiannon, we used to play out in the street (top end of Queens Road) before we went there, and we’ve always been good friends, all through school. She was, like, my best friend in years 7 and 8.
PR: So where would you have played, here, in the street?
CT: The grassy bank just across the road. We played, like ‘stuck in the mud’ and all that kind of stuff.
PR: Well, that’s interesting. You tend to think kids don’t do much of that, perhaps because neighbourhood doesn’t let them, or other things take over.
CT: It’s only because it’s a cul-de-sac up there – a pretty quiet road (Balsams Close) so it’s pretty safe.
PR: What’s her name?
CR: Rhiannon Spellman.
PR: Was it her mum who stood against me in an election?
CT: (Laughing) I think it was! Yes!
PR: I thought the name was familiar. I beat her, I think, by about 12 votes. And so, has that friendship continued?
CT: Hmm .... We’re not such great friends now, but we are still friends
PR: Let’s deal with Dude (Laughs from Cath). Tell people where she is and what she is.
CT: Well she’s (Claire) my older sister by 2 years and at the moment she’s at Leicester de Montfort University. We’re very close really. Mum and Dad kept books – like – when we were little - you know, little diary entries. I admired her. I used to sit and watch her playing, and look at her toys, but then I became scared of her, you know, hard cuddles. But we’ve always been very close. I can remember copying her with my haircuts and clothes and I can remember my grandma telling me not to copy Claire anymore and that really hurt.
PR: What age were you at that point?
CT: I was probably about 6 – 7? We were in John Lewis and Claire was getting some shoes and I wanted some the same as her, and Grandma said I couldn’t. So she went to Hertingfordbury as well, and Simon Balle.
PR: And how? .... I mean you are different, aren’t you, although you’re close. How do you mark the differences?
CT: Claire’s more easy going and takes life as it is. She always used to do everything that Mum and Dad asked her to do – and I used to rebel against it. If they told her to go to bed, Claire would go. I would rebel. She’s more musical whereas I’m more ‘academic’. I am quite musical but she’s much better at things like ballet and music. We get on really well.
PR: Life’s troughs and peaks and things .... what years have you enjoyed living most? I know you’re going to say, all of it, but ... What have been good years?
CT: I think the last year of primary school when you’re at the top of the school – school trips – really good. So sad leaving ... all my friends there. I think the last couple of years I’ve had my independence much more. I can drive now, and get around. I’ve got a job, and I’ve got more money to do what I like.
PR: Any trough years. Any times when you were not coming to terms with life quite as readily – or finding challenges.
CT: I think the first years of secondary school. It took me quite a long time to settle in and get a nice group of friends. I used to spend hours doing homework and that was quite different from primary school because we never had any homework. I still quite enjoyed it all, though, but I’d enjoyed primary school so very much. It was such a change for me.
PR: You’d better sup your coffee ... but what about your upbringing as it were. How do you compare it with some of your contemporaries? What kind of a home life have you had?
CT; We’re all very close. I don’t know. We have fun together and laugh together. No financial hardships. We go on holiday together every year.
PR: What about eating? How do you eat?
CT: Usually it’s just me and Mum eating with evenings. Claire’s at university and Dad doesn’t get home from work until about 7.00 – half-past – or 8. He works very long hours (Partner at Longmores, solicitors in Hertford). At weekends we eat together – except in the morning it’s whenever we get up. Just grab a bit of breakfast.
PR: What about things like Sunday lunch?
CT: Yes, we do have lunch on Sundays.
PR: And everyone who can eats then?
CT: I love Sunday lunch. I wouldn’t give that up!
PR: Why does your Pop work so long (Richard, mother is Shirley).
CT: Well, he’s a solicitor and works at Longmores. He’s a partner there and it’s just the amount of work he has. And he does a lot of work, like in the church as well (St Andrews). He was churchwarden for a couple of years. He still does a bit of work with Hertingfordbury (school) the Trust. He’s still a trustee there, and he’s on other charity bodies locally.
PR: So, what will he have been actually doing until 7 or 8 each night? Sitting in his office with papers.
CT: I think it’s in his office, when it’s quiet, on his own.
PR: And what’s his background been? Has he come from a family that have done some sort of professional work?
CT: Yes, his father was, I think, a solicitor. I think he actually wanted to go into architecture but his father, and his mum, made him go into soliciting, and his brother’s a solicitor too.
PR: Do you think he regrets that?
CT: I think he does enjoy soliciting now, but I think he would like to have done architecture or something like that. He does drawings on holidays and stuff. He’s very good at that. But I think he does quite enjoy what he does.
PR: What about Shirley? Do you know how they met?
CT: It was through Scouts. They were both cub leaders/scout leaders when they were 18 – 20 – something like that. Then they got married when I think Mum was 21 (laughs) ... which is quite scary because Claire’s 20 now ... so next year! (Laughs)
PR: Shirley works, now, as well (as Richard) ...
CT: Yes. She works at Richard Hale, just down the road and she’s assistant bursar. She works part time, 9 ‘til 1.30. She quite enjoys that.
PR: You’ve been in the church choir for quite a long time (St Andrews). Do you know when that started?
CT: I think I’ve been in it about 10 years now, nearly.
PR: Yes. Almost as soon as you could read!
CT: Yes.
PR: It probably helped your reading.
CT: It probably did, yeah. I’ve really enjoyed that. Worked the way through the choir and I’m in the adults. You get all the ribbons – now the dark blue. And I’ve got the Bishop’s Award as well.
PR: Do you support that ribbons thing ...?
CT: I think so. It gives you something to aim for as you go through the choir. It has helped me. Mrs Raven (choir mistress) has really helped me with my music, my singing. I wouldn’t be anywhere near .... well, if I am good ... (laughs) as I am now. But I do really enjoy it. It’s good fun. And we have our choir party – that’s a good laugh.
PR: I’ve wondered about this myself, whether I might re-join. Whether I’d just be dragged along to parties and things – but you do actually enjoy it.
CT: I do, yes.
PR: Is it partly because there are others of your age – comparables – or ...
CT: Yeah. It’s partly, yeah, Emma and Faye (Hardy) but all the adults are really nice, friendly. It’s kind of like a family, because I’ve got grown up in the church all my life – so they’re second family in a way – and I enjoy singing lots of music as well – all the anthems and I really enjoy that a lot
PR: What about your instrument?
CT: Yes, well I play a flute – and piano. I started piano lessons when I was about 7 and my piano teacher was terrifying. I really hated piano lessons.
PR: Now we need to have names here. This is important. Who is this terrifying teacher?
CT: Bridget Marshall. Well she was nice, but she was a bit unpredictable - how she was going to react when you played your piece. And she always used to make us do these concerts and play without music. I got so nervous playing in front of people and I really didn’t enjoy it that much. I got to Grade 7 though and I gave up a couple of years ago.
PR: Would you give her credit for that? Was the edge that she put on everything ....
CT: Yeah! It did help. She pushed you through. She was always pushing you to do your best. I think that was partly why I got so far in it. But I think she pushed me a bit too far at the end because I was trying to do Grade 8 pieces with her – and she put me in for festivals and competitions and I just really didn’t enjoy playing in front of people.
PR: We’d better give Bridget a mark up. Where did your piano lessons take place? At her home or ...
CT: Um! First of all it was in West Street, I think, and then it was in Presdales (school, Ware) and then it was at her home at Ware.
PR: Now, we’d better get back to focusing on you, personally. Your choices and preferences. What are .... about colours. Don’t look at what I may be wearing today ... because I’m not a colour co-ordinator – but –
CT: Well my favourite colour has always been purple. Apparently it was the first colour I learnt to say. All my clothes are quite colourful, I’m not the sort of person that wears black or anything.
PR: Is that like that with Dude? She doesn’t wear black either, does she?
CT: We’re both quite similar in what we wear.
PR: What about tidiness and manners of operating. Are you ...
CT: I’m a very tidy person. Well, quite tidy. My ..... I tidy my room, it does get messy, but it’s quite tidy at the moment, but I do like everything to be organised, you know. All my schoolwork and files well organised. Claire’s a bit messy. She’s very conscientious about ......in her house in Leicester. She likes ..... she’s the one who makes her friends do the washing up and she keeps the place tidy and they all call her Mum because she bosses them about, which I’m really surprised about, but her room is really quite messy.
[Cuckoo Clock]
PR: Do you think she’d rather her room weren’t (sic) messy?
CT: She is quite organised. I think that when she comes back to stay, just for the weekend, she can’t be bothered to .... she just dumps her things. She’s quite organised because Mum’s an organised person. Dad isn’t so much! (laughs!).
PR: What about things in the world that you don’t care for? What would you campaign against, or not like in people or in institutions or in society?
CT: I really don’t know. What kind of things?
PR: Well, The Women’s Libby Stuff’, Political Correctness’, an over emphasis, perhaps, on safeguarding procedures, child protection. Society is affected by all these current campaigns. I taught kids in school not to speak to other people, strangers, and I loathed doing it because I think they should but the curriculum said, ‘You must watch out for this person, watch out for that person’. I think you should be free to say speak to anybody you pass in the street, fearlessly. But I’d wondered whether you had things in society which annoy you or which you disregard?
CT: Well the one thing would be the environment. I’ve got someone in school, she lives about 5 minutes away from school. She drives into town to pick up her friends and then parks in school, and then at the end of the day she drives home. That does really annoy me, because I think, you know – it’s disregarding the environment. I think we should do more re-cycling.
PR: Do you walk from here, then, into school?
CT: Yes. It’s only about 10 minutes’ walk.
PR: Down Lovers’ Lane?
CT: Yup!
PR: Do you do that alone or do you pick anybody up?
CT: My friend, Emmie (?) who lives at Mandeville, she knocks on my door each morning. I walk with her.
PR: You’ve got someone to yak to as you go up this steep slope. It’s quite a pull up there.
CT: Yes! (laughing). It is! With a heavy school bag.
PR: How do you feel about ‘political correctness’?
CT: I’m not really a great campaigner person. I’m not really interested that much.
PR: Like you say, ‘Call me Catherine, call me Cath’ I’m not bothered. You’re easy, easy. Any embarrassing times? Can you recall? You didn’t read the wrong lesson in church last Sunday.
CT: No, I don’t think so, I’m trying to think of any ....apparently on the first day at school I got locked in the loo, with Victoria Bettridge, but I can’t remember that at all. I’m just trying .....
PR: It’s possibly because you’re not easily embarrassed.
CT: I don’t think it’s that – it’s that I’ve a bad memory!
PR: I had to get a girl out from under the loo door one day. She’d gone in to have a tinkle just before a GCSE exam and got stuck – the bolt wouldn’t unbolt. She’d tried to squeeze out under the door – there was a 12” gap and got half out but her belly got jammed. In the end we got her half back inside and the caretaker climbed in with her over the top of the dividing partition and had to somehow get the door off its hinges, and release her properly. So I know if I’d asked her about an embarrassing experience, she’d know what to say.
At St Andrews there’s quite a debate going on at the moment about children and their upbringing in the church, what they’re taught (by the church). You presumably missed a lot of Sunday School because of the choir, did you – or did you get it?
CT: No, we always got it. We went out.
PR: I didn’t know whether you started there early enough to get the full lesson?
CT: Yeah. It was only the last couple of years that we stayed in.
PR: Because the choir used not to go out. But it’s not only that, it seems that currently a lot of people are concerned about parents not instilling in their offspring ..... they are not sending their children out – and then letting them run up and down the aisles instead. (Not instilling appropriate behaviour in a church service I think I was meaning).
CT: Yes, I know some people don’t like them running about. I think they should control them more. I don’t think they should be running about the church when people are trying to pray or worship.
PR: I don’t know. I don’t mind a bit of noise in church with children enjoying themselves in church. I think that’s important. I don’t think they should think of it as a boring place where they’ve got to sit still for hours. I suppose, from what you’re saying, it depends what they’re used to at home. A stark contrast?
CT: I think you should discipline your children, though. I can’t stand undisciplined children and my children are going to be well behaved.
PR: What are you going to settle for then? A couple of girls?
CT: Girls would be nice. They’re a lot easier than boys. Less trouble. But .....whatever .....
PR: I think they (girls) are more interesting, but .... boys are so straightforward. You just knock them into place. So possibly a couple of .....
CT: Yes, but not an odd number of children.
PR: Are you still talking to Duncan? Is he still in your orbit?
CR: Yes.
PR: How long has that happened?
CT: Just over 2 years. 2 years on the 12th February. I can’t believe that!
PR: Right, now let’s look at the tape and see whether we can launch on ‘How I met Duncan’ – or whether it’s…
CT: Right, well I met Duncan at East Herts Concert Band which we have every Monday – and I play the flute and he plays the trumpet. He’d been playing in it years before me. Claire was there before me. So I kind of vaguely knew him through that – then my friend had a millennium party, and he was playing in a band with – it was Rhiannon’s brother – he played at that party and we got to know each other better – and on our first date we went to the cinema – and saw a film – yeah! It’s gone from there. He’s very musical – he wants to do music at university, we’ve got a lot in common there – and he’s kind of all-rounder – he does all sport and drama and everything. He’s a Christian and goes to church in Great Amwell where he lives.
Side B
Begins with mother, Shirley. I’m just going down to Tescos but your um ....
ST: I’ve got two projectors out there. One you turn it on, the motor works, the other one doesn’t work, but you may want to take some parts off it. There’s a whole box of empty cartridges.
PR: Smashing. Is this the ‘organised Shirley’ we’ve been hearing about (Laughter from both).
ST: It’s not your father is it?
PR: That’s also been recorded .... yes!
ST: OK?
PR: It’s been brilliant. We’re just into ‘love life’ now.
ST: See you later.
PR: Is he (Duncan) a caring kind of chap, would you say?
CT: Yes, he is. He’s very friendly, very talkative.
PR: And does it mean you have to do things you otherwise wouldn’t do, like going out standing on touch lines to cheer?
CT: Yes (laughter). Last September he was complaining that I’ve only been to see him play in 2 Rugby games and so I promised I’d go and watch him more. Like .... 9 o’clock Saturday morning .... freezing cold, tipping down with rain, there am I watching him play Rugby, but luckily I quite enjoy watching Rugby, so ....
PR: Do you understand it?
CT: Yeah, I do kind of understand it. Well, he lectures me when we watch Rugby on the telly as well. He tells me all about it. So, yes. And I’ve been in to see him in the House Plays (at school) that he’s been in – and his concerts at school and lots of things.
PR: I mustn’t over-do Duncan – but he’s a local ... at least, his dad was at school with me, wasn’t he?
CT: Yes, he was.
PR: And so his family (Vaughans) is local as well. Right, notes. Ah! I need to know, like, ‘the menu’ for the week, as it were.
CT: What, like a school week?
PR: Yes. What’s the pace of your week? How would a normal day go?
CT: School every day. I leave here at about half-eight which is quite late compared to a lot of people, which is quite nice. I get quite a lot of time .... school starts at 9.00. You have 5 lessons a day. I’m doing ‘A’ levels at the moment.
PR: You’d better tell us about your offer from Warwick.
CT: Um ... Well I’ve got offers from Warwick but I’ve got offers from all 6 universities. I’ve got to decide which .... some of the courses are ‘Business and Law’ and some are just Business. I’ve got to decide if I want to do the Law bit. And I really don’t know!
PR: What sort of grades are they wanting? Are they much the same?
CT: Um... the highest one is AAB. Then ABB. I’ve got to keep working hard.
PR: So the hours in school pass, the lessons. Do you have other extra mural things? How do you do lunch times?
CT: As I’m in the 6th form, at lunch time I can go into town if I want to ... or stay in the canteen or stand outside in the freezing cold. And then after school .... I do quite a lot of stuff out of school. I do the East Herts Concert Band on a Monday evening, and I have ballet lessons still. I started them when I was about 7. I’ve got a different teacher now. A couple of years ago my old teacher retired. It’s a Dancing School, and then I have choir on a Friday night and Sunday mornings. I used to do Brownies and Guides and everything but I’ve stopped that now.
PR: How long do you spend working on school academic work?
CT: Quite a lot of time unfortunately. Especially with ‘A; levels. There’s so much work.
PR: What’s typical?
CT: I do a couple of hours before dinner. But sometimes I talk on the ‘phone with my friends a bit. The time seems to go.
PR: What would you talk about?
CT: School work. What we’re doing at the weekend. We talk about people at school, all the gossip.
PR: In 50 years’ time, that may be strange – and yet now it’s obvious. Would you initiate the call or do you get called? Do you tell people not to ‘phone you because you’ve got to work?
CT: No, I see what happens. I do feel guilty – speaking a lot to Duncan when I should be at work.
PR: He as well, really. It’s so important – to try and keep these things ----
CT: .... in the balance, yeah!
PR: And you’ve got to say, often, that you must talk to that person, quite rightly – it’s a big demand.
Are there people at school who are ‘over-strained’ do you think? By the pressures of modern school life?
CT: I think there are some people. Because we’re the new year that have had A/S’s (Advanced Scholarship level?).
PR: We’d better explain. Tell them what A/S’s are
CT: Um ... A/S’s are half an ‘A’ level. All subjects are modular now, so you take modules at Christmas and in the summer. Last summer I did my A/S’s and I had half an ‘A’ level for each subject I do, and now this is finishing it all off. And I think with all the exams, because we’ve had exams at Christmas and the summer, and re-takes as well (you can only re-take exams once) there’s quite a lot of pressure on people the whole time to do well. You’re always working towards exams. Because I’m doing four subjects, which is what the Government want – four or five subjects – but I think most people did four and a lot of people dropped down to three subjects because there’s just too much work. I am finding a lot of work this year, still doing four.
PR: Dude (Claire) didn’t have it quite the same way, then ...
CT: No she just did three ‘A’ levels. They just took exams at the end of two years in the summer. I think, in a way, this system is better because we get some of the work for the exams out of the way. Most of my subjects now (in February) have only got 35%/40% of the exams left. I’ve already got 65% of it. The pressure’s taken off a bit.
PR: I haven’t heard many people say that they are happy with the present system. They just talk about the relentlessness.
CT: I think I’ve been lucky because I’ve done OK in all my exams. I haven’t had to do any re-takes or anything. There is the danger that you just get so behind that, with so many re-takes plus more exams to do .... you never get on top of it.
PR: What about the town of Hertford? I’m now trying to think where people might compare what you’re saying now to something that other people have said in the past (or might know it in the future). We won’t bother to think now too much about Hertford changes, but it has changed enormously from being a town that stood on its own, that other people all came to, to being a town that people do come to .... at nights .... certain people. But many people go out of Hertford to shop, which wasn’t the case in most of our (HOHG) stories. Do you used Hertford town centre at all? Socially, or for shopping?
CT: I do use it. Because I can go in at lunchtime I can use it for shopping a bit then ... but there isn’t very much at all, compared to other places like Stevenage. That’s where I usually go – Stevenage – or Welwyn – somewhere like that. I do go to the pubs on Friday night.
PR: What are your ....
CT: .... favourite pubs? Um ... The Prince Regent (Bull Plain later Stonehouse, now in 2020 PopWorld, opposite side to the museum). Claire works in the Duncombe Arms. I’ve never been allowed to go in there, because I’ve been under-age and she’d chuck me out if she was there.
PR: There are ‘bouncers’ on the doors of so many places. The Prince Regent .... long queues. Long queues in Fore Street at Baroush.
CT: I’ve never been in there. It’s a bit ‘sophisticated’.
PR: I went to the opening night there ... only because it was free to Councillors. I’ve never been since. I’m going up to the Bengeo Working Men’s Club in a moment – Scotch and a Pie. Baroush does look ... I’d quite like to be in Baroush looking out, but I wouldn’t want .... (probably intended to say ‘pay their prices’).
CT: Business women ...
PR: So what makes the Prince Regent .... when you say you like it?
CT: Um ... it’s nice because you get all the people from school meeting in there. Whenever you go in there you see lots of people you know and they’ve go like a dance floor, so you can have a bit of a dance.
PR: When you say ‘a bit of a dance’ ..... describe the dancing in 2002.
CT: Um .... it’s all kind of ‘garage music’.
PR: What’s ‘garage music’?
CT: Well you’ve got a beat and a bit of a tune on top.
PR: And do you always dance with Duncan?
CT: No. I dance with my friends.
PR: Girlfriends?
CT: Yes, yup.
PR: Would you dance with other bloke friends, or is that not part of ....
CT: Not really. You dance with a group of friends, but not really ....
PR: So that bit of things has stayed the same – war-time dances at the Corn Exchange, you today round the corner in the Prince Regent. And what do you drink?
CT: My favourite drink is Malabou and pineapple, something like that, vodka and coke ... you just have the bottle. They are just like fruit juice – they are quire dangerous because you don’t realise your drinking anything really. All the girls drink that, boys drink lager and…
PR: So, on Friday night, what’s the programme? You come in from school ....
CT: I usually just sit in front of the telly – and then I go to choir – Duncan goes to Ventures (Scouts) – and I usually meet up with him and we go to the pub.
PR: Where do you meet? How to you get together?
CT: They have Ventures usually at the Scout Hut in Ware so I either drive over there and then we either go to a pub in Ware or come to Hertford.
PR: .... and then you queue up.
CT: Yep
PR: Are the bouncers really necessary?
CT: You do get the odd fight. You do need a bit of control then.
PR: Do they control it ‘professionally’ or are they a bit suspect?
CT: I think they control it quite well. I don’t know. Might be a bit dodgy – especially in Ware, it’s a bit rough. We’ve had a few recent fights.
PR: I’m dealing with one at the moment – for Victim Support- whose been stabbed in the neck. He’s my client. Quite a lot from Zero’s. Do you ever go to Zero’s (opposite The Blackbirds in Parliament Square)?
CT: I’ve never been there, It’s never really appealed to me.
PR: Why not
CT: Well ... it’s got a bit of a reputation. Everybody has a laugh about Zero’s. A small night club in Hertford – it’s a bit of a joke really. They still charge for people to go in. I don’t know how they get people to go in. It’s always like ..... the really drunk people in Hertford end up in Zero’s. Anybody who’s quite sober doesn’t go in there.
PR: So, the local watering holes for you ..., Zero’s would be put to one side because of ‘tone’ and you know ... Prince Regent, Baroush you may like, - do you ever go to those cafe places?
CT: There are lots of cafes like like Cafe Uno, Cafe Rouge, Pizza Express. A couple of weeks ago we went to Cafe Uno for my friend’s 18th for a meal and then we went out into Hertford to the pub afterwards
PR: Are there any other boozy places that you could go?
CT: The White Hart, The Firkin (Blackbirds) but they are usually quite .... the Firkin is like kind of the pub for Haileybury people – private school!
PR: The White Hart’s probably the most mixed isn’t it, of age groups and types.
CT: It’s very small. There’s never enough room in there.
PR: And the Duncombe? What kind of clients does the Duncombe welcome?
CT: I think they have the older, like 20’s! Late 20’s, early 30’s.
PR: Sloppy Joe’s on Old Cross?
CT: Yes, I’ve been in there a couple of times.
PR: How do you characterise them? What sort of ..... apart from being a very long thin room.
CT: Yes! It’s more my kind of age group (18).
PR: .... and your social type? So you’d fit in there all right?
CT: Mmm.
PR: But you couldn’t dance ...
CT: No, there’s not a lot of room in there.
PR: But the traditional ‘pubby’ places – The Salisbury and The Barge, The Ram, The Sportsman (that used to be the Blue Boy), they’re just drinking places ....
CT: Yeah! Yeah.
PR: .... or middle aged. And I bet you’ve never been in the Bengeo Working Men’s Club.
CT: I haven’t.
PR: I’ll have to take you in there one day. Ladies have to go upstairs at weekends. But you’d be allowed to come in on certain nights. I’ll have to get you and old Duncan there for a Scotch, just so you can say you’ve been.
Let’s just press the pause button. Is there anything else we ....
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CT: (Alone) Peter’s just gone out of the room, loading up the projectors that my Mum was talking about earlier. I’ve just been left here to chat about anything that I can think of ... and just going back to primary school, I really did enjoy primary school, but I can remember .... we had a teacher called Miss Davis that everyone was terrified of and she used to teach about Year 4, Year 5. We were all terrified of her, until I went in her class in Year 5 – and she was a lovely teacher! She seemed to warm to you once she got to know you. But I can remember being so scared when I went into her class, but she was a really lovely teacher. And there was Mrs Norton (?) – Year 5/Year 6 and she was very musical. She did have favourites, and she did like me because I was ... I did music as well. I started flute lessons at primary school in Year 5.
I did that, and then I think about the times I fell over. I remember one time, about Year 2 Year 3, I would have been about 8 or 9 and I was skipping in the playground and I fell over and hurt my knee. I can remember it being very painful. It was in lunchtime that I fell over and it was then in registration I was allowed to sit on a chair, whereas everyone else had to sit on a carpet. And I could hold a cuddly toy as well whilst she was doing the register.
CT: (Still alone) And also, another time when I fell over, it was when my friend Sophie Elliott (from Gardiners Spring, Puckeridge) was at my house to play and we had to rush off and take her home and go somewhere else, I think. And we were all in the car ready to go, and Sophie suddenly remembered she’d left her doll in my house and so she was allowed to run in and get it and I was told to stay in the car, but then I ran in after her and I fell over – and I can remember Mum telling me off – and Dad was kind of trying to hold me, and Mum was trying to wash off all my cuts and bruises and I was screaming and ... it was painful as well, but I remember being told off for doing that.
Mum was always the one I used to have big arguments with. She always used to tell me not to look at her in a certain way and I used to say I could look how I wanted to look at her ... and we used to have big arguments. I used to have tantrums in the middle of the night, as well. Quite embarrassing. I used to get up in the middle of the night and tell Mum and Dad I was leaving home. I was going to walk out. It used to really annoy me because after a while they sort of got used to these and they would lie in bed and say, ‘OK you can go!’ and I’d say, ‘I really am going to go now ...’. I wanted them to get out of bed and stop me from going. Mum always used to make me go next door and apologise to the neighbours in the morning. I always used to find that really embarrassing. I used to argue with Dad a little bit, but he’s not such an arguing person. It was Mum I had the big arguments with. And she used to smack my bottom hard. She believed in smacking. Which I think was good. I’m going to smack my children because I think they need discipline. And I’m glad she did. I think I’m a nicer person now.
Going back to Hertford, I’ll talk a bit about the shops we’ve got in Hertford because I could go in there at lunchtime. We’ve got New Look (right-hand side of Green Street) a clothes shop, and we’ve got ... yes, there’s a chain of them all round the country, they’re quite cheap clothes, quite good if you’ve got a party, you can pop in there and find a top in there usually. We’ve also got a shop called ID (Railway Street almost opposite the fountain) which is another clothes shop .... and they’re quite expensive in there. And then you’ve got the stationery and music/videos shops, W H Smiths and Woolworths. They’re quite good, cards and all sorts. Hertford does have a lot of antique shops around the place and there are a lot of ‘giftie’ shops where you can go in and get stuff like photo frames – all those kind of things.
Peter wants me to say whether I was a cold or warm person ... well, generally, I’m always cold. Every time I do the peace in church and shake people’s hands they always say, ‘Oh! You’ve got very cold hands’. And I’m always complaining at home that we don’t have enough heating. I always put the heating up whenever I can.
CT: (Still alone although PR and ST seem now to be in the background) ... and so it’s not good standing out by a Rugby pitch. I’m more of a morning person. I always get very tired at night. I can never stay awake if I’m sitting here watching tele. I can never ‘lie-in’. I can lie-in ‘til about 9, half past, but I can never understand people that can lie-in all day until about 3 o’clock in the afternoon. I get bored in bed, and have to get up. I’m very much a morning person.
I could talk about eating habits, I suppose. When I was little I never used to enjoy food. I used to think of it being a hassle you know, you have to eat to keep alive, not that I enjoyed eating. I remember that Mum used to, when we were eating dinner there’d be Mum and Claire and myself ... and if it started raining, Mum might have to rush out and get the washing in, Claire would eat some of my dinner. If I didn’t want any more I’d give some to my dog, Lucy, and she’d eat a bit, and then Mum would come in and it would all have disappeared. I think she knew, really, but now, I’ve changed a lot. I enjoy food more. I enjoy eating with the family and we sit together and chat about things that we’ve done through the day and we sit about ....
PR returns: .... I’ve just been talking to a friend of yours – the cement mixer man. He thinks you’re wonderful. And he thinks you’re a brilliantly talented person.
CT: Really! (Laughs).
PR: He hears you playing an instrument.
CT: Playing the flute to him.
PR: Do you play it to him out of the window?
CT: No, I’m probably practising in my bedroom ... I was practising on Sunday and Dad was telling me at lunch that people had rung him that morning who were saying about my flute playing. I didn’t realise that ...
PR: Heart sank. He said, ‘You’re Peter Ruffles aren’t you?’. I said, ‘Yeah’ ‘The MP’ ... No, and then he went on a bit about how wonderful you were. He lives in Villiers Street. Ah! There’s a KitKat there
CT: I know, I’m off chocolate for Lent, but I keep .... I have Cocopops every morning for breakfast. Mum says, ‘If you don’t eat those you won’t eat anything’, so I have to keep eating them.
PR: Have you run out of things to say?
CT: Yeah! I’ve been chattering away, but I can’t think of anything more.
PR: What will you do about a wedding? It may or may not be with Duncan, of course. Will you do churchy stuff?
CT: Yes, . I’ll probably get married at St Andrews.
PR: But you’ll probably wait ‘til you’re 31, won’t you?
CT: I don’t want to be too late. I don’t know, 25 – 26?
PR: Well I might hang on then ... eating the right food, not smoking too many gaspers, no scotches in the Working Men’s.
CT: A white wedding.
PR: Mine have dropped off an awful lot in the last two years really. I used to go to school kids weddings – former pupils, I should say. Suddenly gone down. It’s nearly always the bride that invites old teachers. Occasionally we get a groom, about one in ten. It may be because I’m not associated with the school anymore. People used to just think, ‘We’ll have him, he used to teach me and he’s still there’
CT: I think people are leaving it later to get married and have children because they want to do more with their life and careers and things. Claire told me I’m not allowed to get married before her, though. She said she won’t come to my wedding if I get married first.
END OF RECORDING