Watkins, Ted & Rita (02003.6)

A conversation with Ted Watkins (TW) Rita Watkins (RW)

Interviewed by Eddie Roche (ER) and Peter Ruffles (PR)
Date: 01/01/2003
Transcribed by Jane Page

Hertford Oral History Group

Recording no: 0 2003.6

Interviewee: Ted Watkins (TW) Rita Watkins (RW)

Date: 2003

Venue: 22 Pepper Hill, Ware

Interviewer: Eddie Roche (ER) Peter Ruffles (PR)

Transcriber: Jane Page

Typed by: Jane Page

************** unclear recording

[discussion] untranscribed material

italics editor’s notes

TW: ls this what you two do for a hobby, is it, or what?

ER: You see the thing is Ted, you're a local fellow, born in Hertford, and if we don't talk to people like you, in years to come, if people want to know something about what was happening on the Folly.

RW: That's true.

ER: Up Sele Farm

TW: Yes, yes.

ER: They won't know.

TW: Oh, I see.

ER: But if we can talk to people like yourselves, and it's a very pleasant way of spending a couple of hours away from the wife.

TW: That's nice.

RW: I'll stay here.

ER: Anyway, it's Tuesday afternoon.

RW: No I'll go and do a bit of gardening.

ER: And we're in the nice house of Ted and Rita Watkins, and the sun's not shining, but Ted's looking at me to see if the recorder is on. I think it is, actually Ted.

TW: Oh, yes.

ER: It's only waiting for Peter Ruffles, actually. Peter's sitting in the corner waiting to champ at the bit. Ted I've known for many, many years, from the Folly. Folly Island, for which this year, 2003, we hope through the Oral History and Jean Riddell to mount an exhibition in the museum, as a follow up to the exhibition that was successful of Sele Farm. And Ted, who was born on the Island, as we said many, many years ago. How old are you Ted, if I might ask?

TW: 71, 72 this year.

ER: So you were born on the Folly, at number 28.

TW: 28 The Folly, 1931.

ER: 1931. And your mum lived in that house.

TW: For 78 years.

ER: Before then, I checked it on the old street directories. Floss Clarke.

TW: Yes. Floss Clarke, yes.

ER: And so really Ted, your memories from when you were a little lad.

TW: Yes.

ER: On the Folly, what can you remember as a young lad?

TW: Well everything really, in respect of growing up. Fun, running errands, close to the shops, close to the rivers, close to Hartham, thoroughly enjoying myself. 8 years old when war broke out, and that brought a lot to the town and the Folly, in respect of army movements, and building the bridge on the bottom end of Thornton Street joining Hartham Lane, in case of an emergency of Mill Bridge getting bombed they had a diversion for the traffic, which happened when the doodlebug dropped anyway. But, since then, it's all fell through. The army used Hartham as a base for movements right through. Plus all the army used to come through on the old trains. Through the Folly, Hertford North and Hertingfordbury lines, and through that way.

ER: That was the old lo op line that connected the North to the East.

TW: The old loop line. That's right. I always remember you know, the troops in the town being the 51st Highland Division and the Yanks of course, plenty of fights, plenty of scraps, plenty of gum, and cheap fags. Lively old town. yes, and as I s ay, the Folly kids, we had the Folly gang, and nowhere was private as such to anybody then. Everybody roamed everywhere. We walked from Panshanger to Ware Park, and everywhere, thoroughly enjoying ourselves not in mischief, just in fun, you know.

ER: But, you were one of a large family, weren't you Ted?

TW: Five children, yes Mum had four boys and one girl. Yes, four boys and one girl.

ER: Alf,

TW: Doug, Daphne, me and Peter. Peter was the youngest. Yes.

ER: And they all lived in that little cottage on the corner.

TW: On the corner, 28 The Folly.

ER: Yes, but times weren't easy, were they Ted?

TW: No, no, times weren't easy at all. No, I mean, times were hard, as I say. Plus, the war years when everything was short, but everybody was in the same boat. Not in respect you know, there were such big families, or some were hard up more than others, but we all sort of grew up with it, and you try and improve yourself. You run errands, and we got little jobs after school: delivering papers, Ernie Wren's and the old bakehouse, and running about with the bread vans, and things like that. Tuppences and thruppences. Fetching coal from McMullen's old yard and running errands generally. A couple of coppers here, a couple of coppers there.

ER: So, you say McMullen's old yard, where would that have been then, Ted?

TW: McMullen's coal yard, on the bottom of Hartham Lane, below the brewery.

ER: Behind the brewery, where the sidings were?

TW: Yes, that's right, and McMullens had a little old hut there, and you could go round there and get your half hundredweight of coal, for 213d, or whatever it was, and deliver it round the Folly. People used to say "get us half a hundred weight of coal". Or you could go to Jewson's and get a barrowload of chopping wood, you know, threepence or a tanner. Old Mr. Hemsley was down there and he used to, you know, watch you through, and see you off. A bit of sawdust for the old rabbits, all had rabbits.

ER: But, everybody had a truck, didn't they?

TW: Everybody had trucks, yes , all the kids had trucks , and we used to go up to the old market, Bull Plain and Railway Street, on a Saturday, collect the old orange boxes , and apple boxes and things like that, for burning wood, plus we used to make sure there was a bit of fruit in most of them. Ha, ha, ha. Yes.

ER: So, where did you actually go to school as a youngster?

TW: I started school at Cowbridge. Yes, started there at five, and that was sort of coming on through to the war years and, at that time, the Jewish Orphanage came down from East London and stayed in the town. They were all billeted into the town. Plus the Battersea Grammar School, they came down into the town as well, and it did mean, some of the schools had air raid shelters and some didn't, so what we had to do was go mornings one week and afternoons the next, in conjunction with the Jewish Orphanage. We used to go to St Andrew's School at one time, then they built air raid shelters down at Port Vale, so we went to Port Vale School. And then at eleven I went up to Cowper School, well they had air raid shelters beyond them, so they was all right.

ER: So, did that mean that you spent a certain amount of time at Cowbridge School? This is the school.

TW: Yes, five years, from 5 to I I.

ER: For people who wouldn't know, would be in Dimsdale Street.

TW: Dimsdale Street, yes, it's still there.

ER: But in the afternoons you would go to another school?

TW: Well, mornings one week and afternoons the next. We only worked half days. We only went to school half days.

ER: Yes, I see.

TW: In ‘junction with that, you see, because the schools weren't covered, and they wouldn't let you use one...Cowbridge hadn't got an air raid shelter, you see, so we had to go to St Andrew's School.

PR: Did St. Andrew's have an air raid shelter?

TW: Supposed to have had one at the back somewhere.

PR: Oh, I was trying to think, 'cause there wasn't much room, was there?

TW: Then we went to Port Vale.

ER: I can never remember an air raid shelter at St. Andrew's.

TW: No, I don't know as I do remember an air raid shelter at St Andrew's. I think we was just pushed up there because there were so many kids to go to school, and then we ended up down Port Vale, because they had an air raid shelter down there.

ER: Yes, I see.

TW: It was built behind the school, sort of on that bit of McMullen's land.

PR: Where was the Cowper School shelter, as you say, up beyond it?

TW: As though you were coming down towards Able Smiths, All Saints, you know, by the allotments over that way, yes, over there.

PR: Oh. Because they had that famous underground classroom at Cowper School, didn't they, more or less.

TW: Well. yes, you went down steps, didn't you, yes.

PR: Down into the dungeons.

TW: That's right, yes, yes. Did you ever go to the Cowper School?

PR: No, but I used to go in there for various things.

TW: Marvelous old school, yes.

PR: My brother went there for a bit.

TW: Yes , old Mr Stalley and all the rest of them.

ER: So, you would remember Mr Stalley and Mr Green, and..

TW: Well, Len Green was not there, he was in the army when we was there. His wife was a teacher there, there was Stalley, little old Charlie Booker, Marks from up Ware Road, Budgen, and there was Mrs (came from Bengeo) Johnson, Mrs Johnson, lived halfway down New Road, opposite the Warren.

PR: Her husband was a teacher as well, wasn't he?

TW: Was he, yes, he wasn't at the Cowper School, she was, and, yes, that was the time we was there. Then, sort of after the war, Len Green came back, didn't he? He was a Captain in the army. But, otherwise, as Isay, then, 'cause we used to go down the old British Restaurant for our dinner. Down the old alleyways, which was Hertford Motor Company, wasn't it, then, now it's Iceland isn't it?

ER: Is that where you had a school dinner in there?

TW: Yes, the school went down there, yes, school dinner, yes.

ER: And that was from the Cowbridge School?

TW: The British Restaurant was in the front, but the garage at the back was all school kids.

ER: Yes, oh I know, I remember.

TW: The workshops at the back was long tab les, and everybody went there for school dinners.

PR: Before it was a British Restaurant, was it sort of requisitioned to be a British ... , in the war effort as it were?

TW: I can't imagine it not being, but I would have thought it was always a garage before then. Hertford Motor Company were there.

ER: It was a garage 'cause, Hertford Motor Company moved there from Parliament Square.

TW: Something like that.

ER: 'Cause there were petrol pumps. I can remember, as a boy, petrol pumps where that Cafe Rouge is now, and they'd swing them out across the pavement.

PR: And you can see, above it, you've got the windows where they used to display things.

TW: Yes.

ER: And then they went down to where the British Restaurant, and then, of course, after the war, they reclaimed it, and had it as a car showroom, didn't they.

TW: I think they did, that's right, yes. Course next door to that, where the alleyway went up to Abel Smith's, All Saints, the big house there, that was the Yanks were in there. They had the black Yanks.

ER: Oh, is that where they were billeted?

TW: Yes, they had a big house there, a big three-story house, and they had the old Sextons and half -tracks and that out the back, but they were about the first black people we really saw. And it seemed as though then, the Yanks were keeping the blacks together. They were sort of a division of their own, you know. Hard, but more or less on their own. And then, of course, you had the row of the shops there, Elliot’s old music shop, up to the Plough comer, and Neal’s were on that corner. Then you had London Road with the old poultry market, the Plough on the corner the Greencoat School halfway up, with your barracks on the left, Hertford Barracks. And then coming on to Stalley's house and the Cowper School up on the right-hand side, with the forked roads, Mangrove or Hertford Heath.

ER: Course some of that is still vaguely in place now, isn’t it?

TW: One little bit of the flint wall, there’s about three sections of the flint wall on your right going up, or if you come out the alley by the telephone exchange now, it’s on your left.

ER: Yes.

TW: But there’s just a little. Course the outside toilets used to be at the top of the playground and we were dared to slide down there in bad weather, if you had a skid, you know down there,

Old Stalley’d be waiting for you.

ER: But wasn’t that flint wall, Peter, made listed?

PR: Yes it’s a listed wall, part of the playground.

TW: About three sections of it down on the left hand side.

PR: Knapped flint.

TW: Yes that’s right, with a brick section between them you know. Cause we always used to say, well, we still say, that’s the only bit of Cowper School left, you know, ha ha, yes.

ER: But, from what I can remember of the Folly, which is a lot later than you, Ted, I can remember your mum, Floss Clarke as everybody called her.

TW: Floss Clarke, everybody knew her as Floss.

ER: Mrs Fox, always called Floss Clarke and she was one of these people.

PR: You’ll need to spell her name out Eddie for the….

TW: F.L.O. double S

ER: Floss Clarke, Clarke with an E.

TW: Clarke with an E. We were the gypsies they said, yes, Clarke with an E.

ER; And I can always remember Floss Clarke as one of these people, you could knock on the door if you’d got…

TW: Any problem, yes.

ER: A problem and she was there for you.

TW: Yes.

ER: And she was well situated in this corner house.

TW: Right on the corner, yes.

ER: I mean, my Dad told me about Floss Clarke.

TW: Well, you see…

ER: She was a legend on Folly Island.

TW: That’s right.

ER: As a person who would look after you. I mean I can remember her looking after my grandmother and grandma.

TW: Ned and Nance were just our old neighbours all those years, your grandparents.

ER: But she was one of those people that was needed in every community.

TW: Yes, yes, that’s it. Yes. Baby trouble, anybody died. But down the Folly, we didn’t have one Mum, we had every mum. Don’t matter whose house you was in, you was with your mum, and if you went round there you either got a bit of cake, or a bit of something, jam sandwich or something or a cuddle even you know. Our mothers were at home, we never had to go looking for our mums. We came home from school, yes, we’re alright, we’re off.

ER: Do you think it was a warmer community?

TW: Oh definitely.

ER: Doors were open.

TW: Yes definitely.

ER: People helped each other.

TW: Course.

ER: I mean I have heard tales recently.

TW: We never locked doors.

ER: People who played on the Folly Island, and people, children drowning on the Folly Island and how people rallied round and it was very close knit….

TW: I don’t know of anybody actually drowning on the Folly Island, as Folly people. Only people who fell in the river, different accidents as such.

ER: Further down.

TW: On the Barge side, on the wide waters as we called them. But there was three I remember, different people they got out the river. But at that time, as you remember, all the barges came up to Jewsons, Garratts, Adams, and they dredge it every year. And with the barges and dredgers, I mean, it was a novelty, it was exciting time, but we used to thoroughly enjoy ourselves. We used to play on the barges but we never fell in.

ER: And that was before the war Ted?

TW: Well during the war as well.

ER: Coming up to the war and during the war.

TW: Coming up to the war, yes yes. And they used to come up to Adams and old Barbers yard at the top end there. And, as I say, they dredged it all and at that time, the back water from Adam’s Wharf down through the old waterfall at the bottom end of Thornton Street, down through the Folly and into Hartham, and the old waterfall there they used to flush through every Saturday morning at twelve o’clock, they used to lift the gates and flush it right through.

PR: Oh did they, yes, yes.

TW: And that used to take it right down past the Dicker Mill and out on to the thing. Because at that time there was a big old house on the bridge. Old Day lived this side with the Medcalfs, but there was an old Miss Harding used to live the other side where the water works was. There was a big, old, wooden, black house stood there.

PR: Oh let’s just get that verbal picture. So you went across the footbridge, over the sluice gate.

TW: This is The Folly end yes, yes, and immediately on your left, at the end of the bridge, was a big old house that stood there.

PR: Near the, next to the waterworks.

TW: Next to the waterworks.

ER: On that site, where the waterworks is now, on its own.

TW: There’s a big old tank.

ER: Yes.

PR: Yes, yes.

TW: They used to open that waterworks and there used to be a big fat fellow, used to live on Port Hill, can’t think of his name. (Mr Rushton?). They used to flush that through, because, as you went down in to Hartham, you got the little tunnel underneath, there used to be a big paddle under there and that used to flush the water through. Because we had the big river, which we called from the waterfall, and then the little river, which has all been filled in now, it used to go under the tunnel didn’t it?

PR: They used to call it the Paper Mill Ditch.

TW: That's right. It used to run into the old swimming pool.

PR: Yes, so there was a wheel under, what under the bridge.

TW: Under that road where you come onto the Folly if you can imagine coming through that little backwater, under the pump house, and then under the pump house, the road where it leads over to the bridge, there's a water mill under there, a paddle.

PR: Yes.

TW: And that used to paddle the old water through, because we used to sometimes venture in there, because you get some good fishing there, and we thought that was blooming brave getting in there, you know.

PR: Yes.

TW: And we'd been dared anyway, going under there.

ER: Yes.

TW: Dared, but we used to, you know, get in there and come out.;

ER: So, do you know anything of the history of why the bridge wasn't put across from Hartham side, a proper bridge, onto Folly Island.

TW: Well, the army built, when you say.. ..

ER: I know they put a Bailey Bridge across there, but there was never a bridge across from that side onto Folly Island, was there? There was only the little footbridge where the sluice was, wasn't there?

TW: That's right. Well, there was always allotments there when we were kids. And there was allotments either side of the river, there, and then when they built the bridge there, the pontoon bridge, as you call it, because it had a wooden top on it.

ER: Yes, that's right.

TW: As I say, that was for the relief bridge, in case Mill Bridge got bombed, or got out of action. And I understand, well afterwards they put a more stable bridge on top of that, didn't they, replacing the pontoon bridge, it was something to do with the landowner this side. He couldn't agree, or they couldn't agree and he wouldn't give them permission to open it up this side and use the bridge, as such.

ER: Wasn't there a gap.

TW: There was something to do with that.

PR: There was a ransom strip, and it was, yes, Thornton Investments, Bill Dale.

TW: Wasn't it Mr Dale's time? Something you know, as I say.

PR: Being awkward. Just going, back, sorry to take you back, Ted. The allotments were behind the odd numbers of Thornton Street, where there's a car park now.

TW: Yes, yes.

PR: And then you say, the other side of the river.

TW: Yes, well, when we were kids, I don't know who had it, whether it was old Mr Dale or Medcalf, but there was a couple of plots either side, right beside the river, which is now just a grass bank.

PR: Yes.

TW: And it was good soil, because at that time, old, well Vic Green lived in there in the end, and number 50, their garden came along the bottom end of Thornton Street, you see, up to where they built the bridge.

ER: Yes.

TW: So in fact, when they built the bridge, they took part of their garden, but, when we were kids, that garden came along there, you see .

ER: Oh yes.

TW: There was a fence there, and it was just a dead end.

ER: Yes, yes.

TW: And if you can imagine taking what, as wide as this room, off the bottom end of their garden, that gave them access to the road and the bridge.

ER: Yes, yes.

TW: Because that was a wartime development, I remember that going up. Well we had some good fun down there, but, as I say, it got used a little bit, but we was always glad it wasn't a through road, and all our mums were, because we could imagine people taking short cuts coming through there. If you can imagine, without it, the Folly was safe. All we saw down there was the tradesmen, baker, coalman and vans to the Folly shop: old Brooke Bond tea van and things like that, 'cause that was all was on the island, you know. Old Meadie's scrap iron yard, you see, well Joe was away, prisoner of war, so they had horse and carts anyway, so it was nice and safe down there. There was no road accidents.

ER: The Meads were there for a lot of years then?

TW: Oh, golly, yes. Well before my time. You come over there, old Joe Mead, who's about now, it was his old brother Ted was down there, and his old dad had it before then. And during the war they had the bottom bit, and what's a garage or workshop now, the y had pigs in there, and there was a chap there, called old Lofty. We used to go in "Can we feed the pigs?" " No" he used to say, "you'll let them out". "No, we won't let them out", of course we did. They'd run round the Folly.

ER: So you were good little boys really.

TW: Yes, poor old Ted, he used to go in the little hut, which was in the yard, and he had an old brown piece of drainpipe as a chimney. Well, we used to whip a bit of slate on top of that, and about twenty minutes, half an hour later, he'd start coughing and spluttering. Well, we knew what he was going to do, he'd get the horse whip and chase us round the Folly, wouldn't he, but we knew the alleys and he…

ER: I was going to say, all the houses had back alleys, didn't they.

TW: Yes, alI had back...

ER: It was intriguing. I mean, I used to go down there visiting. And perhaps my mum would say to me "oh, go and see Jack Bates for ten minutes", and you'd go through all these little back ways.

TW: Oh, every house down there had a back access, everyone, except the one on the corner, perhaps, like us on our corner, Osborn’s on the other corner, and Mrs Charman and the others where old Parker lived, they were on the end house, but otherwise, yes, everything had an access to the backway, oh, golly, yes. And the allotments down the Folly at that time, they were immaculate; there was a lot of stuff there. There was good allotments and good fishing out the river, because all the spillage from the barges. Used to have some lovely fish, and used to be several people down there used to go fishing, BilI Shelford, Harry Wheeler, brother Alf, and all that crowd. And poor old Reynolds, we used to call her Reynolds, not Mrs Reynolds, it was always Reynolds, she used to buy them, give you a couple of coppers for them. And they used to eat them, you know: pike, roach, anything, and there was some good fishing.

PR: Where did she live then?

TW: She lived in Thornton Street, about three from the end, Riverside end. Yes, Jack and Les Reynolds, Kath Reynolds, Mrs Reynolds, old Mr Reynolds, he was a painter at Botsfords or somewhere. Yes, there were so many of them families down the Folly, you know, real good old sorts.

PR: Who have you got then? Give us some names of the society, the families.

TW: Well, we was all one big family. There was the Plums, the Games, Cheshires, Wheelers, oh, the Nulteys down there, old Jim Nunn, old Jim Nunn from round McMullens there. There was the Cheshires, they all went to Australia about 1940..'48, I suppose, just after the war.

ER: Ladleys, Ladleys.

TW: Ladleys, poor old Joe Ladley, yes, and Ed and Nance Roche, granddad and grandma, Bentleys, Normans.

PR: Rists and Camps and…

TW: Camps and Fosters.

ER: And over the years, people tended to stay on there.

TW: They're still some. Some of the grandchildren down there now. We're out and they say "oh hello Teddy" and, you know Rita'll say "who's that" and I'll say "well, when I left the Folly, they were about eight" you know, now they've got kids of their own. But then there was several novelties, I mean, during the war, a Mrs Charman came down from London, been bombed out at East Ham, got three daughters, Olive, Iris, Beryl. And of course, they had a sweet shop in London, well, a lot of the sweets were salvaged in jars, and of course, she turned up and she lodged with Mr Parker, opposite us on the other corner. He had little front room, and she had the rest of the house. Well, of course, all the Folly kids were tapping on the door "two pen'oth of sweets, please".

ER: No coupons.

TW: No coupons, lovely, yes.

ER: I bet the people who had the Folly shop weren't too pleased, though.

TW: And they was all in the big glass jars, you know. Who was over there, then? Mrs Fordham, I think was in there, and then Mearse’s come after Fordham’s in the old Folly shop. But there again the Folly shop, you see, I mean, that on its own, marvelous, everything from a galIon of paraffin to half a pound of butter. No hygiene worries or nothing then, you know, sweets and everything.

ER: So people could be reg. . .. They carried enough stock in the Folly shop for you to register there for your groceries.

TW: For your rations. I've got a ration book upstairs, in my collection of all the old things, you know, Allinghams the butchers, Folly shop for your butter, cheese, Allinghams for meat, somewhere else for your... Well, Wrens for bread, you know, and all that sort of thing, although bread was on coupons, you see.

ER: Yes, that's right.

TW: Marvelous.

PR: The Mears were husband and wife, weren't they, but I'd thought they were brother and sister for some reason.

TW: No, John, the son, took it over afterwards.

PR: Ah.

TW: Mr and Mrs Mears, can't think what his name was, big man, ever such a big man. But, him and his wife were there, and then, John, was in the army, and he took it over, and his wife, John married, and David, he's got a son David, now, lives in Ware somewhere, and a daughter, but, as I say....

PR: Always seemed to be a cat or two in the shop, when you went in.

TW: Yes, that's right, yes. And before then, the older Folly people, they used to refer to it as Panell's, so there must have been somebody in there whose name was Panells before Fordhams took it over. Old Mrs Panell. And of course, on the outside, they had a window ledge, about eighteen inches high. Oh, that was an attraction for the Folly kids. That was a lovely seat. So, in the end, what they done, they wooded it off, tongued and grooved it on the side, so you couldn't sit there. And they put a little fence on the other side so you couldn't get round there.

ER: Cor, that was a bit unsporting, wasn't it, eh?

TW: That was a bit unsporting, yes. They used to stick their bundles of chopping wood out there.

That was a laugh. We used to kick one of them down there, and we'd go through the alley, and opposite where old Ted Mead's yard is, we used to l ay it in the road, on a bit of string. And, of course, somebody's mum would come down from the town, shopping, saw the bundle of wood, fell off the lorry, going to the shop. As soon as they put all their shopping down, we used to lug it up the alley, and, oh it was fun. Yes, it was all devilment, but good clean fun.

ER: So they sold bundles of wood in the shop?

TW: Oh, yes, yes, they sold bun .. .. they sold anything in there.

ER: So, would they buy that off you, Folly lads?

TW: No, if we didn't take it home, we give it to mum, perhaps, but..

ER: No, but would they make their bundles of wood up from wood that perhaps they bought off of you, from outside Jewsons?

TW: Oh, no, no, no they used to come delivered tied up in little bundles with string round.

ER: Made up.

TW: Yes, yes, couple or three coppers, then, I suppose what it was.

ER: So you had a bit of competition, you Folly boys, with your truckfuls of..

TW: But we used to go round Jewsons and get whole bin loads, you know.

ER: You could for about sixpence or a shilling, couldn't you?

TW: Yes, I don't think we paid a shilling, no, sixpence I should think. And we used to have a sort out down there, before we come away, and put a few nails in the bottom of the truck, and then put the wood on the top, you know, and we used to get some good bits of wood and put at the bottom. Old Mr Anthony used sort it over and he used to say "well, yes, all right, sixpence or thrupence", sometimes, if it was a bit thin and messy, you know. Yes.

ER: 'Cause there was a sort of, if I remember rightly, Ted, I used to go down to Jewson's get the timber for gran, for people, or for at home, or the workshops, and you went down into a…

TW: Pit, underneath, where the sawdust was.

ER: And it was quite, you know, they wouldn't allow it nowadays, would they? It would be quite dangerous, because the wood just used to drop into this pit, didn't?

TW: That's right, and I always remember that, and there used to be electric cables running around out there, black and red cables, all bare, sort of thing, you know, from the machinery, you' d never get that. Someone could get electrocuted really, but it never caught. well, it did, there was a couple of fires down there when we were kids, you know, where they caught alight. But, no, otherwise, as I say, it was, it was good fun. We used to go, you know, birds nesting then, scrumping, all as a gang. Walk from the Folly up to, up Palmers Lane, as we called it, they call it Watermill Lane, I think now, or something. Across to St John's wood and get all the bluebells. Walk up to Panshanger from the Folly, which was a fair distance.

ER: We're talking about a few miles, though, aren't we, Ted?

TW: We are, yes.

ER: When you say go scrum ping from Folly Island, I was going to say, well where did you go?

TW: Yes, the other side of Bengeo. Old Reverend Davis, we used to give him a look in there, and of course, old Mrs Johnson, she was a school teacher at the Cowper, and she'd, you know, knew we'd been up there , so we used to get a slight whack the next morning. 'cause she .. .

ER: She used to inform on you.

TW: Yes, and if you'd got brown stains on your fingers, where you'd been walnutting up Ware Park, she knew none of us down the Folly had got walnut trees, so we got another wallop, and that wouldn't come off very easy, that old stain.

ER: Bit like nicotine stains .

TW: That was, very much so, yes. Oh, golly, yes, we used to walk to Panshanger and get the chestnuts. Used to get chased out of there, Panshanger Park, up the top there. Those woods were full of chestnuts, there. I always remember that, we used to go up there as a gang, cross over the bridge where the Hertford County Hospital the North station, come out on Sandy Hill. We used to walk to one telegraph pole; run to the next, as kids did then you know.

PR: Every hundred paces.

TW: And that wind used to whistle up there, then, because it was a bit bleak, but we used to do all these daft things, you know. Yes, we all had hoops, and of course, during the war, Hartham was a place where all the waste paper came, was stacked down there, it was pressed and packed. The Council had some old huts there, and they used to stack it outside in bales, cover it up. Well, we used to go down there and have fun underneath the sheets and all over and hide. And then, they had a waste material, they used to have an aluminium week, or something like that, and of course, everything was collected through Hertford dump, down there. Well, all the Folly kids were down there. We used to have a sort out of that, all the mums had new saucepans, new kettles, and we had swords, and everything, old guns.

ER: Can you remember them, when they buried a load of rubbish?

TW: Well, when I was a kid, as I say, it was low, and then they started. They started this side, which is by the Folly Bridge, there now, they went right down as far as the old swimming pool, raising it by about six, probably eight feet.

ER: As much as that?

TW: Yes, right though, right to the bottom end, then they come back the willow side, as we called it. They done one half and come back the other half, and that was all the rubbish. And the trees at that time, there was, you know, a good dip right round each tree.

PR: Yes, I remember that dip, especially over towards the Warren.

TW: Well, that was the height it came up, and I mean, it sunk obviously over the years, but, they raised it as much as that.

ER: So, those modern bridges where you go over from the Folly, from Hartham over onto the Warren, they're a recent addition, because they're a lot higher, aren't they?

TW: Well, we only had a new one, which we called the Willows Bridge, and that was straight across. There was only the one. But, I played bowls down there last year, and I was suprised, because I thought, I'll have a walk round here, and of course there were other bridges there. But, when you went across the bridge at the willows, we had one incident, during the war, there, when Hertford got a pasting with incendiary bombs. There was a lot of them dropped across the town. Well, we went looking for these bombs, didn't we? We was in our glory. And, Eric Game and myself, poor Eric's dead and gone now, but we went over there, and there's a couple in the river, hadn't gone off, by the thing. So, of course, lovely, they was home, down the bottom of the garden. Plus those that were burned out, you got the fin, as they called it, you know, and we had a couple of them. Course the old Folly people, there was Bill Shelf and old Mr Danon and them, they were wardens, and they used to run around, you know, during the air raids. And, we took these home, and in the end we got a bit scary, because, otherwise they might have gone off, you know. And, as soon as our mums found out we'd got them down the bottom end of the garden: "get it out".

ER: You had these live incendiaries in the garden.

TW: Oh, yes, yes, we had them in the shed at the bottom, yes, we took them home.

ER: You'd carried them from ...

TW: From the bottom end of Hartham, yes.

ER: Across Hartham? Two live bombs?

TW: Yes, they was the incendiaries.

ER: And how old were you then, Ted?

TW: Nine, ten.

ER: And so, what happened? Did they call a warden.

TW: No. Well, we turned round and we said like , you know, we'd got these. 'Cause they said "well, there's a lot of these about". Polly Jones had one in her back garden, and that had gone off She was so thrilled to think she'd got this bomb gone off in her garden, she was taking all the kids in, two at a time, to show them. And it was just on the back end there. But, we'd already, you know, we'd got a load of them anyway. And we'd got bits and pieces of them, 'cause all the Folly kids had shrapnel. Old George Lucas, from down the Folly, he was a builder, and he was on this emergency repairs in London, and he used to bring all the Folly kids back, every night, loads of shrapnel, and some of it was big, half inch thick bits of shrapnel, that he picked up. "Can you get us a bit of shrapnel, George?". "Yes". And, you know, he used to bring them back, and all the Folly kids had lovely bits of shrapnel.

ER: I wonder what happened to al I that.

TW: Where did it go?

PR: Yes.

TW: And, of course, when the landmine dropped in Tamworth Road, all the Folly kids were up there getting bits of, you know, aluminium type shrapnel, 'cause we watched that come down. Your granddad was there then, that night, 'cause we came out, and it was in the search lights over, more or less, All Saints' church, from the Folly, looking that way, it was over the top of All Saint's church, Mangrove and it came sailing across. We watched it come over, you know, and we was down there like a shot the next day, getting bits and pieces of that.

ER: Was that the one that fell, and some people were killed?

TW: Yes, the Wright family, were down there.

PR: Tamworth Road, yes.

TW: Mrs Brett, yes, the wife.

PR: I think they said there was a danger or that hitting the cinema, at one time.

TW: That's right, my sister's boyfriend, as he was then, was in the County cinema when it went off, 'cause it was about tennish, half past nine, tennish, one evening, or something, and they reckoned the County pictures really shook, you know. Well, it would do, just across there. And then, I remember one Saturday morning, I was working at Wrens, the bakers, and I'd got the old trades bike out , so it must have been about eight ish, I suppose, coming out and a plane came over. We'd had an air raid, and there was a plane up there, and we watched it, and old Ken Dunn, who lived opposite us at the back, on Riverside, and he said "no, it's not one of ours". And, all of a sudden, bang, bombs came down, and they dropped at St Leonard's church, over Hartham there. There was about three bombs went down there, and, of course, being soft ground they went in well, but there was cattle there, and several cattle killed, and there were some running round with shrapnel in, and they shot them. 'Cause the army were on Hartham all the time, but they said "oh, he just jettisoned his bombs" and some said " well, he was after the gasworks". Well, I mean, at the height he was, that wasn't a bad shot really, because he wasn't far from the gas works.

ER: It was a near miss, wasn't it?

TW: It was a near miss, and, as I say, being so soft, it went down well, into the garden, you know.

PR: So, what happened to your live xxxx, then.

TW: Well, we gave them back. We said to them like, you know, "we've got these, and we found them over Hartham", sort of thing, and that was it then.

ER: So, you handed them into the A.R.P.

TW: The old A.R.P., yes, old Bill Sheldon or old Darton.

PR: So, Molly Monk's father, was he on…

TW: He was on there, but I think he was something to do with the maltings, or something.

PR: Ah.

TW: Jim Long, I think his name was Jim, yes, I remember him, he used to ride backwards and forwards on a bike, but I think he was in the mailings then. Molly and Peggy were Folly kids yes.

PR: Yes.

TW: And their old grandfather, old Wuffy, as we called him, Wuffy Game, he was down there. He lived on Thornton Street. I tell you what he used to be; he used to be the cellarman beerman at the pub on Mill Bridge.

PR: The Woolpack.

TW: No, the other side, that got bombed.

ER: The Wickham's pub? (Wickhams brewery tap)

TW: The Wickham's pub, yes, he was there.

PR: What did you call it?

TW: Sorry.

PR: Cellarman beerman was he, there?

TW: Cellarman beerman there, or something, yes, yes. And of course he used to do a lot of fishing off that veranda. And , they, you know, used to be quite popular up there then . Yes, old Wuffy we called him. I don't know where the Wuffy come from, but he was a nice old fellow, big man.

ER: But, there were a lot of nicknames in those days, weren't there, Ted?

TW: Yes, yes, old Parker and, poor old Parker, and old Mr Wilsher, and old Ted Mead and Butty Webb.

PR: We better get somewhere those people are, Eddie. I mean, to start with your Eric Game, I mean he used to look like Norman Wisdom, didn't he?

TW: Yes, he did, poor old Eric, yes.

PR: Was he your sort of contemporary?

TW: He was. He was my mate. We grew up together, same age and everything.

ER: Is that the Eric Game who worked for my dad?

TW: Yes, he did. He worked everywhere. He worried his poor old mum to death. Macey, his father, was a firemen at Hertford, and then there was Joan, Eileen, Tony was killed during the war and Ken. They're all dead now, except Eileen. She's up Port Vale. George Street, not George Street, Russell Street.

ER: Russell Street.

TW: Russell Street. She's up there. And poor old Macey used to go flying off, because, at that time the firemen had a notice outside the front door, in blue and white enamel "Fireman". And he used to fly along the, well, several of them did down the Folly, Alf Crook, Vic Smith, and they used to fly along the old river on the towpath on their bikes to the fire station, which was quite near, anyway.

ER: Wasn't your older brother…

TW: Alf.

ER: Alf, was he a fireman?

TW: He went on the fire brigade at about sixteen, running around as a messenger, sixteen, that sort of thing, he had a motorbike, A.F.S. Then he got called up, and he done five, six years in the army. And then he went back as a fireman.

ER: He was a sort of, what they would call a trainee fireman/messenger boy, wasn't he?

TW: Messenger boy, started off as a messenger boy.

ER: 'Course I can remember my dad talking about Alf Watkins.

TW: Oh, he was a little squirt on a big motorbike.

ER: And that was at the beginning of the war, Ted?

TW: Yes, and what they used to have to do, when the siren went, Alf used to go to Bengeo. On the forked roads of Stoney Hills and Sacombe there at the top, there used to be a big house called Hay’s. That was an orphanage during the war.

Transcribers Note: Bengeo House owned by the Hays family before it became a childrens’ home for children from the Tottenham area

PR: Oh yes, Bengeo.

ER: Hertford House.

PR: It used to be called Bengeo House in the end, didn't it, which wasn't very imaginative, really.

Transcribers Note: had previously been Bengeo Cottage!

TW: Hays seems to ring a bell to me, I think that's what they called it. And they used to have to go up there and be present during the air raids because of the kiddies. It was some some of an orphanage come nursing home.

PR: Yes, London children.

TW: Yes, that's right.

ER: So, he go up there on this.

TW: He go up there on the old motorbike, up there, he'd go flying up there. Ticker Harding was there then.

PR: Oh, yes.

TW: And, you know, old Bob Martin, from up, used to have the shop up Ware Road.

PR: Newsagents.

TW: People like Arthur Wren, they was all part-time firemen, and your Dad.

ER: Harry Botsford, Fred Roche.

TW: Yes, Fred Roche, Charlie Wong.

ER: Yes, that's right, he worked in Botsfords.

TW: Yes, Charlie Wong, and then there was the old boy used to be at the Mayflower, Vic Smith was his name?

ER: Alf Kemp.

TW: No.

ER: No, they requisitioned Alf Kemp's lorry, didn't they?

PR: Vic Smith, lived at the barn.

TW: Lived at the lodge.

ER: Frank Smith.

TW: Frank Smith.

PR: Frank Smith, yes.

TW: People like that. They used to sort of all run around, and do a damn good job. And as I say, there was Alf Crook, Vic, oh roll you, can't think of his name, down the Folly, don't matter. Anyway there was a lot of them, yes, Harry Drew, I remember old Harry Drew and all that lot, yes. But, as I say, Hertford then was such a friendly, lovely place, and the Folly itself, I have to laugh now, because the Barge was the Barge, now it's the Old Barge, and the Folly was the Folly, now it's Folly Island.

ER: You hear people waxing on about the Barge and its modernisation.

TW: All the posh bits, you know.

PR: What about, I mean, people like, say, the Rist family.

TW: Yes.

PR: Did you have much to do with them?

TW: Yes, you see, we was, I personally was a little bit younger than John. There was John and Bob were twins.

PR: Tw ins, the youngest ones.

TW: And then Jim was away in the army, obviously, and then there was George, and then there was one they called Tiny, he was about six foot six, sort of thing, there was Doll, she was down the Folly with her mum. Their father must have died earlier, because I don't remember Mr Rist much as kids. I know it was sort of a one-parent family, same as old Polly Jones. Mr Jones died early. They were next door. People like old Tilly Claydon.

PR: Oh, number thirteen or something.

TW: Tilly Claydon, you know.

PR: So what was, that's what's interesting me, some of these people that I knew, when, you know, I was doing the paper round really, but I didn't know whether they were old Folly people or new Folly people, I couldn't tell, but Tilly Iived, she was very old when she died, wasn't she?

TW: Yes, she was, yes, yes.

PR: What was she, I mean, was she part of a bigger family?

TW: Well, yes, she had an old sister, well an old sister, not being rude, she had a sister married Lorn Cheshire. Now, Cheshire used to live the other side of the road, and he used to have a big harp, a Welsh harp, and he used to go round the pubs playing this harp on the Saturday nights, round these pubs, and that was Tilly's sister. And Henry Claydon, who's about the town now, I think that was his grandmother, Tilly Claydon, I'm sure it was. I think his mother was her daughter, or no, it must have been his father to be Claydon. But, and they used to live next door to the Bales, and then the Bales were relations to the Haslers.

PR: Yes.

TW: Ken and Ron Hasler, you see.

PR: Haslers, they were in Old Hall Street, weren't they?

TW: That's right, yes, that's it. And there was old Butty Webb, from the, chimney sweep, you see, he had, Mrs Saunders was at the Barge then, when we were there, and Butty used to have a couple of sheds in the back with his old soot. He used to put all his soot in bags. On the other side of the corner there, by Harringtons, was Horace Webb, from Mrs Webb, the paper shop, used to keep his old car in there, had a little tuck in garage. And then, of course Harringtons were on the corner, with Mr Penney, Mr Hammond.

PR: Beans, what about Ted?

TW: Yes, there was Bert Whiting.

PR: Oh, yes.

TW: And the Wakerells, and Beans. Teddy Bean, he appeared afterwards. He was in the army, and he must have met Mabel Dye, that was, Mabel, and that was the Dyes.

PR: Had a little high-pitched voice, didn't he?

TW: That's right, yes. I don't know whether he was Scotch or what, but he was in the airborne, he was at Arnhem.

PR: Oh, was he? He worked at the post office for a long time.

TW: He ended up down at Vale House, somewhere there, didn't he?

PR: Oh, did he? Yes.

TW: A bit of a sad case in the end, I think, stress got to him a bit, but I know he was at Arnhem.

PR: He was always very highly strung.

TW: He was a sergeant in the airborne, yes, and, of course, old Mr Dye, Dobbin, he made a hundred.

PR: Ah, now, Riverside.

TW: Yes, on Riverside, well that was his father-in-law, you see, and up a little bit further, there was old Mr Tyler, well, he was about another hundred and one, hundred and two, when he died, and they were McMullens people. There was old Mr Godfrey.

PR: Ah, now, he was, Tyler, wasn't he to do with Ruby Henry, the Mansfields that are on Riverside at the moment, or have I imagined that?

TW: Jack Mansfield's wife, she was a Henry wasn't she?

PR: Yes, Rene.

TW: Her old mum died not long ago, on the Hertingfordbury estate, didn't she?

PR: Yes, and I think I thought Tyler was related.

TW: He had a daughter, but she lived up Hornsmill, somewhere.

PR: Oh, I may have made that up.

TW: I can't think what her name was. I remember a daughter coming down there, and he had a son, lived over Ware. Oh dear, I can't think of his name. then, of course, next door to them there was the Godfreys, Kelly Godfrey and Mr and Mrs Godfrey, and Earn Dunnage, oh yes, there was a good lot along there.

PR: Was he doing the lamplighting stuff in your day, or was that before you Mr Tyler?

TW: Yes, he was, he used to come round with his little six foot ladder, and do the little, yes, clean the glasses, and check the mantles or whatever it was in there. Yes, he always did do , yes, he used to come round the Folly and up Hartham Lane. He had his little round, and that, yes. Not the big ones obviously, but the street lamps, oh yes.

PR: Because a lot of those gas ones were quite low, weren't they?

TW: Yes, yes, he only had a shortish ladder, you know, and he got up there and done all them round, yes. And there was another thing, them lamps never got broken by Folly kids or anything like that.

PR: No.

TW: There was no vandalism as such there, you know, I mean, well, you just didn 't do it.

ER: I suppose in the wartime the lamps, they didn't have the lamps on.

TW: Probably didn't, no, no, they wouldn't do, no.

ER: You imagine walking down the Folly in the blackout.

TW: Well, this was what happened, you see, with Mr Hart, he came out the pub, he'd been celebrating one Christmas, and he was a tall man. He Iived round the back of Harry Young's yard, round there, Maidenhead Yard, was it?

ER: That's right.

TW: And he ended up in the river. They reckoned he turned left too soon before he got to the bridge, and fell in the river. Well, I came home one morning, they'd just got him out, and he was on the towpath by the Barge. Frightened me to death. I flew home. Poor old fellow. And then there was a couple, old Mrs Ginn, she got into the river down the wide waters, but it was very rare, and it was accidental you know. During the war, you see, the army had the Dicker Mill House. There was a prisoner of war camp in there, the Italians. And what they used to do was sort of squash drop tanks and all that used to be delivered, aluminium drop tanks, and they were at the back over the gas works bridge. Well, we used to go down there and help them out by taking a few away. And we had the little flat ones as punts on the river, which used to go on the, we called them, the P38s, the Locket Lightnings. Or the bigger ones, we used to cut them out, and they had baffles inside, so we used to smash them down , and put an old bike tyre round the top , because they were sharp, and wire two together and, of course, they were perfect.

ER: But one on its own was dangerous, wasn't it?

TW: Well, it was, yes, that would roll, you see.

ER: They weren't stable, they were like a canoe.

TW: Thai's right, so we'd wire two together, they was all right then.

ER: Yes, I remember a boy. Do you remember Dicky Day?

TW: Dice Day, yes.

ER: They had a pair of them.

TW: That's right.

ER: And I was down there one day at granddad's, and I sloped off, and Dice came along and he said to me "come on, we'll give you a ride on our boat".

TW: Yes

ER: And we went off up to Adam's wharf, and I got on this thing, and him and somebody else were in the two tanks, and I was sitting on the bit of wood that went across.

TW: Oh yes, that's right, we had a bit of wood across there.

ER: Course, my mother thought. I thought this was wonderful, and the next thing, my mother's standing on the Folly bridge, going berserk, because a lot of them tilt. ..

TW: That's right.

ER: A lot of them sunk, didn't they, Ted?

TW: Well the thing was, you see.

ER: The river was littered with them .

END OF SIDE I

Side Two

TW: Course when we used to leave the boats, to go home and have a bit of something to eat, we used to come back, and they'd made holes in them, and they'd sunk, so we weren't very pleased, so we used to take them back down Dicker Mill and replace them. But some years ago, I read in the paper where somebody thought they'd found a bomb at the back end of the Dicker Mill outlet on the bank there, where Pearces the bakers are on that little island there now (course, when we were kids. they were all allotments and they had some beautiful apples in there) and anyway, I thought to myself then at the time “Well, I know what that is straight away" and that was, that was one of these round drop tanks that had been dumped in the river. Somebody got it out there, covered over in time.

ER: Yes, I was explaining to Pam, my wife, about that.

TW: That's what that was, wasn't it?

ER: But they were alI over, but they could be quite dangerous, couldn't they?

TW: Oh, yes, yes.

ER: 'Cause they did sink fairly easily and I mean, the Beane. We had a lot of rivers in Hertford.

TW: Well, that's right.

ER: And everybody had these floats, didn't they?

TW: You see Hartham and the Folly, that was perfect for them. We wouldn't go down the wide waters in them, because that was a bit too steep down there. But on the Folly river itself, back of the car park, and down the water fall, perfect. And then, course, they used to bring, at that time, all the old scrap iron down on the railway, and they used to use those shoots on the wide waters and put them in the barges. 'Cause they used to tie a couple of barges up under that wall.

ER: Did they shoot coal down those shoots as well, Ted?

TW: Yes, yes, yes.

ER: And where would they take that coal to then? 'Cause that come in on the railway trucks, didn't it?

TW: It came on the railway trucks, and it used to go up towards London somewhere, might be, you know, Waltham Abbey, Waltham Cross, factories I suppose, somewhere like that. Because, as you can imagine, during the war, with the blitz on, it was a bit tight for moving essential materials.

PR: That always puzzled me why they brought it on the train to Hertford.

ER: Why they brought it to Hertford.

TW: Well, that's what I think they used to do, I mean, there was no need for it in Hertford, otherwise.

ER: Because we had our own depot, there was the one at McMullens.

TW: Well, we had our own coal yards. Ware was covered.

PR: Saddlers and Livings.

ER: And Livings had their siding at Port Hill bridge.

TW: That's right, and Ware was all covered, you see, so it must have gone back up the Lee, somewhere towards London.

PR: Yes, yes.

TW: For some reason, as l say, anywhere, Edmonton, Tottenham, places that relied on coal, where, during the blitz and the fires, they just couldn't get to it.

PR: Well, yes, could well have been if there's a power station or something near the water, but not the railway.

TW: Well, that's right, yes.

ER: But it would have been difficult, you couldn't use the same barges that came up, could you, Ted?

TW: Oh, no.

ER: 'Cause they brought timber to Jewsons, didn't they?

TW: That's right.

ER: And they brought grain.

TW: Coal barges were coal barges, and the wheat and that was wheat, and they were separated.

ER: So they were all on a one-way journey, really, weren't they?

TW: Oh, yes. The horses used to come up and the rivers were dredged each year, plus the fact when the barges came up, the horses that pulled them, the old ropes cleaned all the banks, all the way along. They was perfect, you know. There was no overgrown like there is now. Oh, no. And old Vic Eeles's old dad, down the Folly, Brink, he was an old bargeman, he used to walk the barges.

ER: And they would do a certain distance.

TW: They'd go up, yes, they used to go up as far as probably Tottenham or Enfield, and then, you know, drop one, bring one back. Oh, yes, yes, marvelous old, marvelous old men.

ER: Yes, I mean it wasn't probably hard work, because the horse did the work.

TW: Leg work, leg work, in all weathers.

ER: But l suppose they had to help work the locks, as well.

TW: Probably did, yes, probably did then. And as I say, to get the horse in and the barge. And on all those barges there was like a little old accommodation room, one end. I don't say them that were used for the sludge and the muck, no, but the others, yes, they did. And, oh yes it was good fun, and of course, I mean, with the railways as well shunting all the while. I mean, through the Folly there, it was quite a bit, and no accidents that l knew. Nobody ever got hurt, and I mean, shunting right across the Folly into the back of McMullens.

ER: Yes, I was showing somebody the other day, actually, it was Jean Riddell, where that shunting used to come across.

TW: Across the road.

ER: The road, into the back of McMullens, by the water, by the pumping station.

TW: Yes, that's right. And, of course, old Tom Warren and them, well, Tom Warren was away in the army, but the Warrens lived in that end house right beside the railway then, on Hartham Lane. 'Cause you got the Unicorn and Hartham Lane came down to the corner, and there was what one, two three houses along this end right up the railway.

ER: You see that wasn't the Folly at all, that, was it?

TW: No, no, no, that was Hartham Lane.

ER: That was another community, wasn't it?

TW: That was right, yes, yes that was Hartham Lane, same as Mead Lane. I mean, we used to raid these different gangs, Folly gang, Mead Lane gang. Hartham Lane, yes, they were sort of Follyish, but not Folly.

ER: They were very similar houses, weren't they?

TW: Yes, yes, two up and two down, front door right. They were a bit worse round there, because they never had front gardens as such, right on the thing.

ER: No, they were right on the road, no pavement.

TW: Dustbin beside the front door. We used to have some fun with that, coming home from school, put the dustbin right in front of the door, bang on the door, 'course they would come out to chase you and fall over the dustbin. Poor old Mrs Coomber, but the thing was, you see, we was daft really, because we'd got to go back there the next day, and they'd be waiting for us, so we'd have to go round Hartham, or round that way down Port Hill, and be late for school. Same as down the Folly, on the foundry, as we called it then, where old Mr Walls had his old foundry, (Coopers tried to take it over afterwards), but Whisper Wright was on Bull Plain, you see, well, he had his old chickens down there. And Whisper was a character, and we used to torment him, and he was an old bugger. Anyway, he used to have an old top barn and a bottom barn and he used to have this swing ladder on an old chain, go up and feed the chickens, and, of course, we used to wait for him to go up there, swing the ladder round, see , and he couldn't get down .

ER: Now, this Whisper Wright, did he live on Bull Plain?

TW: On Bull Plain, next to Saddlers, the old harness makers. The first house next to Saddlers, between there and what was Greens Stores or Pearkes then, wasn't it?

ER: Yes, yes.

TW: And, we used to have some laughs there, and then, of course, he'd be waiting for us next day, so we'd have to go right round by the East station, right round that way to school, Cowper School, be late again. Or, mum used to say "want you to nip up Perks or Allinghams, get a bit of meat", "can't go, Whisper's waiting for me" sort of thing, you know. Because he didn't give a damn who it was, he'd hit the lot of you.

ER: No pleasure without suffering, Ted.

TW: No, no. And he used to say "you messers" he used to say, and, of course, we used to have one on guard, as we called it, on the Folly bridge waiting for him to come down, 'cause we used to have a one-man - band, sort of, on old Walls's cast iron heap down there , banging and bashing about. And he used to come down there. It was all good clean fun, really.

ER: Do you remember when there was an old boy had a shoe repair?

TW: Mr Brace, on the corner, snob shop, as we called it.

ER: Next to where Wally had his barns there.

TW: Yes, yes, right on the corner there.

ER: I can remember looking in there.

TW: Heap of leather, he used to have, just inside the door, there was a little door, and a little counter. He was a postman, wasn't he, really? And behind him there was a heap of leather, all the old offcuts and dust, that went almost up to the ceiling, and that. It was only like a one room with a little gas mantle in the ceiling, little window on the path.

ER: He only did that part time.

TW: Oh, part time, yes, yes, Mr Brace.

ER: It always fascinated me that this bloke was in there, yes, and I can remember all those bits.

TW: Yes, bits and pieces everywhere, oh God, yes.

PR: So, where are we? I lost that, where, what court were we?

ER: Coming from Bull Plain, you went over Folly Bridge, and on the left hand side, there was these old buildings, and the Sea Scouts took over one part, like the top and the bottom bit, and adjoining it was another old building with a window.

TW: That's right, little tiny window. It formed part of Coopers spray shop.

ER: Cooper used it as a spray shop.

TW: In the end, in the end, didn't he but, on the back end of that old Ted Mead used to have a garage with his old carts and all that in there.

PR: I missed all that, I hadn't a clue about what you're now saying, I've followed you mostly, earlier.

ER: Behind Brace's there was this yard.

TW: You went round the back of it and then there was a gateway and a door, and that was like a garage in there.

ER: And so he repaired carts.

TW: No, he used to keep his old carts in there.

ER: Oh, I see, yes.

PR: Was there stabling down there, of any kind.

TW: Yes, there was stabling there, yes, yes. And underneath old Whisper's place, he had odds and ends, you know , his old truck , he had one of these old trucks and a bit of rope, he used to go round fetching poultry market.

ER: Carrying.

TW: Yes. Poultry market and stuff, chickens and that, whole crates of chickens, oh yes.

PR: Ted, now, no -one's, I think these people may only have been there about six months , but no -one can throw any light on two people I can remember in Old Hall Street and one was a blind lady.

TW: Mrs Smith.

PR: Do you remember that, at number 14?

TW: Yes, right on the end, last but one, next door to Butty Smith.

PR: Oh, right. And she had a newspaper, but she used to come to the door to pay on Saturday morning, looking completely blind.

TW: Yes, that's right.

PR: So, somebody else living there as well, was there?

TW: Yes, she had a sister live there, and there was Sheila, who lives up Sele Farm now, I see, she was her granddaughter. Her father was a prisoner of war, he was taken by the Japs, and she lived with her gran. We knew her as her gran. That was the second house from the alleyway.

PR: Mm, that's right.

TW: But there was another woman there, and I think it was Mrs Smith's sister, probably a younger sister, yes.

PR: Right, that was a little, minor puzzle to me, because she was clearly without any sight at all.

TW: Oh, lovely old girl, spotlessly clean.

PR: Yes.

TW: But, as I say, Sheila was her granddaughter then, during the war she was like two, three years old, but her dad was a prisoner of war, and I don't think the woman lived there was her mother, I think that was an aunt, so I don't know much about Sheila's mum, to be quite honest. I remember her mum being there as well, and then her dad came back after the war, because I remember seeing a tallish man, gingery. And Sheila, as I say now lives on Sele Road, Sele Farm

ER: Sele Farm, yes.

TW: Somewhere, because I often see her, and she remembers me. Yes, she was a nice kid.

PR: So, she was part of the established 'scene, as it were.

TW: Yes, yes.

PR: And the other, there were two really lovely old ladies. Used to go to the backs. Some houses, as a paperboy you went to the front on a Saturday, and some you went to the back. I think their name was Meadows, at number two.

TW: Yes, old Miss Meadows, the first house.

PR: Yes.

TW: Yes, lovely old dears.

PR: Yes, they were really.

TW: Used to wear a long skirt at one time. Real, old, not Victorian, but old fashioned.

PR: Yes, sort of Sunday school teacher types, they seemed to be.

TW: That's right, probably old spinsters as you call them. What they used to do was come to the gate sometimes, and say "would you pop over to there" and just put the letter in the post for them, that sort of thing, you know, and they'd give you a sweet.

PR: Yes, that's it.

TW: Lovely old people, and they lived on the first house, number two, as you say, next door to old Mrs Rist, that used to keep the cats.

PR: Oh, I'd forgotten about them.

TW: And then George Lucas was next to them, Crooks, Haslers.

PR: Oh yes, Haslers were that side.

TW: Haslers were there, then there was Mrs Smith, Butty Webb on the end.

PR: Oh, someone that knows the Meadows.

TW: Yes, Miss Meadows, yes, lovely old people.

PR: There was always a sweet, that was it. In the back gate and into the back room.

TW: That's right.

PR: They'd be sitting there in the back room.

TW: Yes, but their back gate was just in the other way on the side, wasn't it?

PR: Yes, yes.

TW: I mean, a lot of people, I mean the same as Eddy's mum grandfather, you didn't use the front door because the passage way between there, and they used to say.

ER: We were about the only house that had a …

TW: Jo Lavey never opened his.

ER: Had a passageway.

TW: Between the two, exactly.

ER: Yes, because they were a different sort of house, weren't they?

TW: That's right, all you had was the iron bar across the top, to keep them.

ER: And they were rendered, cement rendered the fronts. And then there was that block of four from my granddad's down to where you lived.

TW: That's right, yes.

ER: And they were brick houses.

TW: They were brick, that's right, yes.

PR: Just grey brick.

ER: I spoke to somebody who we were talking to, on Folly Island the other week, and that was the first time they realised that those houses were different. Whether under the cement rendering they were the same, and the same inside.

PR: Your four, were they a little higher, a little taller than the others?

TW: I've got photographs, I'll show photographs of them in a minute. I've got a couple of air photographs, taken from the air, of them, you know, of the Folly. But mum always used to say, because the back doors and the front doors were all sort of hung several ways, and the little old cast iron windows, they reckoned the material for the houses came from the old Hertford gaol, when they knocked it down. Because the little old windows in the kitchen had like a little cast iron lobber handle and you had to twist and pull it, and they was only, what, sort of six by four panes, cast iron frame, little tiny glass windows, absolutely.

PR: Could well have come out of a cell.

TW: Exactly, and the doors, as I say, they'd been hung all different ways.

ER: But it always intrigued me, those four houses were apart.

TW: That's right.

ER: Only the width of a passageway, but they were apart, weren't they? And, unfortunately, of course they knocked those four down, Ted, didn't they? Someone told me that they were condemned.

TW: Well, ours being on the end, the outside wall did bow a lot, and if you went up my stairs to either the front or the back bed room, there was a gap, inch and a half between the floorboards and the outside wall, and it was gradually getting worse, and they decided in the end that, you know, to take it down would be. Then the council bought the row, so they knocked them four down, and built three three bedroom houses.

ER: So they were council houses were they?

TW: No, corporation.

PR: Well, no. Yes, they were bought by the borough.

TW: Andrews owned them, didn't they?

PR: Yes, only after they were in trouble, I think, the council took them, didn't they?

TW: Was it? Yes, I was going to say, it was after our time, old Mr Andrews, because old Mr Onyon used to come and collect the rent then. Nine bob a week. Yes.

PR: I remember Mrs Bentley at number 24.

TW: That's right, yes.

PR: Whose husband died quite suddenly, didn't he?

TW: Yes, well, I never remember Mr Bentley, you see. There was Bill Bentley, Ivy Bentley, there were several of them. But Mrs Bentley, again, was one of the old neighbours, you see. How they were brought up, and June Burnett was the daughter's daughter, Mrs Bentley was June's grandmother, and she lived with her there, and we knew June as a Folly kid, you know. And they was at number 24, and then between them and us was Mr and Mrs Norman, and Mrs Norman's sister, Kate, was there, well that house never had any facilities at all, just paraffin sort of thing, you know. And every time the siren went, Bill used to work for Morris's on Bull Plain, and ...

PR: Oh, not by the War Memorial?

TW: Furniture people, no, no, Morris's on Bull Plain. Beadle House, is it called?

PR: Morris's were up, they went up where the North Met are for a bit.

TW: Yes, no, Morris's.

PR: May be a different...

TW: They were on the Bull Plain, which is a big house now, is it called Beadle House, next to the museum.

PR: Yes, yes.

TW: Well, they used to do furniture removal and storage and repairs and all there. Used to go up there as a kid, take his old urn of tea, in the afternoon. Well, after the air raid siren, the all clear, went, mum used to always put the kettle on, Bill used to come out and pass the kettle over the fence, so they got a cup of tea after every air raid, sort of thing, you know. She was a marvelous old girl. Marvelous old family.

ER: The more air raids they had, the more cups of tea they got.

TW: Marvelous old people. But, that was us four together, Roches, Bentleys, us.

RW: You finished now?

ER: Yes, I think we'll have a little pause now.

TW: All right. Yes, yes.

ER: And Rita's got a nice pot of tea on the go.

RW: Cup of tea.

TW: Good love, good love.

RW: Ted, how do you remember all that, dear

TW: What?

RW: I thought your brain was going. It is in some ways. Can I put this tablecloth on here? Is that all right?

ER: Yes, course it is.

TW: But, no, ain't rambling on too much, are we?

PR: No, just the job.

ER: No, no.

PR: I suppose no houses could have had cellars could they, in the Folly, because you would have hit the water.

TW: No, no, there wasn't any, no houses down there got...

PR: A lot of people on their allotments dug.

TW: Yes, old Vic Green started that off. He had a couple of 45 gallon drums, he took the top and bottom out, and he had allotments down the bottom end of Old Hall Street, Frampton Street, and he went down and he did touch the water table and he got his own well.

PR: Yes, there was quite a few there. They put a board over.

TW: But, I used to share with old Mrs, old Mrs Suckling.

ER: Yes.

TW: That's an aerial shot of Hertford.

PR: Oh, I must put my specs on for this. I can see the Folly all right. Now, what date is this, then?

TW: Well, the Gascoyne Way car park is there. It appeared in the Mercury. That was the original, look. Have a look at that one, that's the original. It appeared in the Mercury and I went in and got that from them, and they're prints off of it.

PR: That's a treasure.

TW: Well you say that, Peter, I've got a couple here, you can have one each. They're not bad. But, as I say, I was surprised to see the Castle Hall on it, but, there again, Eddie, that's what we're talking about, the Folly. Now, you see, when you come against the Folly, here, that's why I had it, because our old house, look at this one (they're both the same). Now see look, granddad's house, our house, then you come down here but you're not quite as far, well you are because this is the old waterfall bridge.

ER: Yes, that's right, the weir bridge.

TW: And that was after the allotments had gone.

ER: 'Cause sometimes I used to sneak across here from granddad's to go round the back there, and across there, but they've shut that off now.

TW: Well, yes, now what did the call her Jessica. She was a Lockhead from down the bottom end, and she, her old boy bought that house, and I couldn't believe it.

ER: That one there, 'cause didn't old Mrs Dance. You remember Mrs Dance?

TW: She was in there, Mrs Dance was there, yes.

ER: Mrs Dance lived there she used to do a few flowers.

PR: The florist, yes, yes.

ER: She lived there.

TW: 'Cause when we were kids, you see, they was old Metcalfs.

ER: Yes, and that's that tank you were talking to us about.

PR: Yes.

ER: Where the house was.

TW: Well that's it, the house used to be right beside the bridge, where that tank is. A big old wooden house.

ER: That's a really good picture though, Ted, isn't it?

TW: Well, see, All Saints church is there, and the Gascoyne Way car park, the Castle Hall.

ER: Don't those two things, that car park…

TW: Spoil it.

ER: And that, you know, wigwam of a building there.

TW: But you see, you've got the old covered market there look, you've got the arcade here, and I mean you've got the old car park with a bus going out.

ER: That does look a bit of an eyesore, doesn't it?

TW: Yes. You've got a bus going out there look, and the old open market. But it's well worth studying, Eddie, because, as I say, you've got a good shot of the old Folly.

ER: This is the late sixties, early seventies, isn't it? Because the motorway was built in the sixties.

TW: Was it?

ER: Yes.

TW: See Sovereign House is up there, look.

ER: Yes, just there.

TW: All right Reet, come on duck. I'll move Eddy's mike for a minute. Is that on? And then there was another bit of luck I had. I found an old picture, and I thought "well, that frame don't look bad", so I thought "well, I'll have that frame", so I took it down the shed, and I was clearing it out, and lo and behold there was a picture in there, and I thought to myself "well no, I don't recognise that" . And when I took it out, it said on the back, here you are, look "Hertford, 9th of July, 1925", and it's an aerial shot, so God knows...

PR: It's the one I've got.

ER: He's got a copy of that. Well, Ted gave me a copy of that when we were at Van Hages the other week.

TW: So I went into, see that was out the picture frame.

PR: Yes, I . . . How much did I pay for that?

ER: I don't know.

PR: Forty odd quid. I went to Aerial Views, a firm at Borehamwood. Aerial Views, they've got them from all over the country, and this is what they gave me, well, rather sold me. A slide, mustn't copy it.

TW: Well, this was in this old picture frame I got down the shed, and that was in it, and I couldn't believe it, and that was on the back of it, that bit of information ..

PR: This is just a bit bigger. I mean, at. least I've remembered the date right, haven't I?

TW: So anyway, I've been in and got a couple of pictures, so you've got one of them, and you can have one of these.

ER: You gave me one of these, Ted.

RW: Yes, well.

PR: Oh, that is a treat, because I've got this slide, which is very useful for showing other people, but you can't use it.

ER: Can I keep this one though Ted?

TW: Course you can.

ER: I'll tell you what I did. that one you give me was rolled up. Actually, I picked it up this morning at home because Pam said to me "are you going to put that onto a piece of board and do something with it, else it's a waste of time Ted giving it to you?" So I said "yes", but that's a nice flat one.

RW: Ah, yes.

TW: But when you look at that, you see, you go back to the old Gospel Hall and it goes down as far as the Baptist church down that bottom right hand corner.

ER: Peter always says, as he says, he's got a slide and he says "it must have been a nice day, because the blinds were out.”

TW: Yes, and it's a bit fierce on the colour.

RW: Don't let your tea get cold, boys, and a cake.

PR: Oh, gosh, thanks.

RW: Have a cake, they re not homemade, I do bake them.

TW: But, you've got as far over as the old Cold Bath Yard and the, you know, the Methodist was it, or Baptist Church in the corner.

ER: The Strict Ebenezer.

TW: Ebenezer, yes, on the corner.

ER: St Andrew's.

PR: I'll tell you what stands out really well here, is Oaker's Buildings, that I've never seen, but have seen a picture of at ground level.

ER: That was a yard there, Ted.

TW: Oh yes, just below what, where the Toc H used to be, or not the old St Nicholas Hall, as we called it.

PR: Yes, near to, yes a bit further up.

ER: Yes, that's St Nicholas Hall. yes, just above it.

TW: Yes.

ER: That's St Nicholas Hall.

PR: That comes out a treat.

ER: And then there was this yard. It's the exit of the car park now.

TW: That's right. Yes.

ER: And then just down here a bit further, is another yard.

TW: Toc H and that was down there, weren't they?

ER: Where, what's his name, Ferdy Barrell had the greasy spoon.

TW: Oh, yes, yes, yes.

ER: And next to there, that was where the entry to the car park, down here, and that building's still there.

TW: Oh, is it?

ER: Where you go into the car park there.

RW: That's still there, isn't it?

ER: That's Wallace House.

TW: But I'll tell you what is fascinating on there, and I couldn't believe it.

ER: And my son lives there.

TW: The old Folly Bridge, now you work that out, when you come down, see this is Bull Plain.

RW: Lovely present, isn't it?

TW: That's the Hertford Club, you come over the Folly Bridge, look at those big old buildings here on the foundry.

PR: Yes.

TW: Well, I always remember my mother saying, when they were young, at the time, there were some big old black buildings there, and they had the wounded soldier from the South African War in them.

ER: Mmm.

TW: And that's where they were, on that, what was the foundry.

PR: The hospital, yes, I've heard people refer to the hospital.

TW: Yes, well, that's it. They were the hospital buildings. I mean, when I was down the Folly single and that sort of thing, and just after I got married, I used to park on the foundry. I had a hell of a row with Cecil Cooper. He was a bugger.

RW: Oh, swearing!

TW: Because he was trying to claim it as squatter's rights, you see.

ER: Yes.

TW: And then, Tony Bentley, wonderful man, he worked at Addis's. Well, I went down there one Saturday, and Cooper came over to me and he said "how long are you going to be there?" so I said "what are you talking about?". He said "this is private land." He said "I've had that post". And I couldn't believe it, he had a six foot post, twelve inches square bedded in on the left hand side. He said "I'm going to put that chain across". I said "well, you can do what you like", I said, "but if you put that chain across there, and I can't get out" I said "you'll pay for a car for me for the weekend". He said "this is private land". Anyway, we had a ding-dong, and I left the car there. So anyway, I saw Tony Bentley, and I told him about it. He said "Oh, yes" he said. So, on the dinnertime, Tony came down and had a look, and the next day, JCB come down, chain round, post went.

ER: Took it out.

TW: Took it out. Any way, we had a hell of a hassle over that, and I don't think, if I hadn't have fought that bloke over, verbally like, you know, over that bit of land, and the Folly rights and all that, he would have got away with that and sold the lot. So, in the end, there was so much animosity went on for so long, not with me but the Folly Residents' Association, they agreed to let him half, but, by law, Oscar Cunneen and people like that sorted it. You know, I went to a lot of people over this, and they said "the only rights Cooper had got".

PR: Oh. It was you stirring it, was it?

RW: Little horror isn't he, little horror?

TW: Cooper said, at the time, "if you come over the Folly Bridge, you've got the space of six foot from those little stable buildings this side", or, you could go over the bridge, turn left where the snob's little shop was, and that was the entrance to that, and that's all they had. That was. Because, when we were kids, the Council, at that time when we had snow, all the snow used to be dumped on there, and during the war, there was a big Nissan double garage built there, open- fronted, that they used to have, to put the St John's ambulance in. So, anyway, I really battled and battled, and poor old Nobby Game, from down the Folly, Nobby was an ex- RAF man.

PR: Was that Eric something or another?

TW: No, that was a different fellow, Albert, Nobby, different family, old Josh Game lived on, that died, the gasworks, but we used to really go to town, and that was what it was all over. But, in the end, the Folly Association, or Residents' Association, said at the time "Well, you know, we'll come halfway". So they give him half of it and then the bottom half is now sort of a recreation garden and all that, but if we hadn't have done, we'd have lost the lot.

PR: Yes, yes, that's all they did.

ER: So, that piece that isn't built on, that still belongs to the Folly Island?

TW: Well, Hertford Corporation. or whatever it is, you know.

ER: Or did the Council take it over? 'Cause you can go down there and fish, can't you?

TW: You can fish.

RW: Help yourself, Peter.

PR: Leave them there, 'cause I'm going to take a picture.

TW: A couple of seats and that.

PR: I'm going to take a picture of those cakes.

RW: Oh no, they're not homemade.

PR: Yes, yes, because they are gorgeous looking.

TW: Well, I made them this morning.

RW: I should have made a sponge really.

TW: Mr Kipling does a marvelous job.

ER: I was going to say "Mr Kipling makes a very... "

PR: We don't get this normally, do we Eddie?

RW: Don't you?

TW: Rubbish.

RW: Got to make you welcome. Good gracious.

PR: I was just going to say...

TW: If we get bloody burglars after you publish this lot, they'll be a row.

ER: No, in a few weeks’ time, I'll go down to the museum, and I'll be sorting out the archives, and there'll be this thick wad of pictures to be put in file: the interview with Ted Watkins.

TW: Good luck to you. I've enjoyed it, but, as I say, it's nice really to have a natter. But, no, as I say, Folly, everywhere had a nice area, but we were so lucky down the Folly, with Hartham and the old trees. We had ropes up trees.

RW: Not now though, is it?

ER: But it was one of those places, Ted, which was a community all on its own.

TW: All on its own, yes.

ER: It wasn't like an estate, as such, as we know.

RW: No no.

TW: I've heard people say this about Gashouse Lane, Mead Lane and the gaol.

ER: Yes, Brewhouse Lane.

TW: All the communities.

ER: Oak Street, Ash Street.

TW: They never had the facilities and the fun we had down the Folly, I don't think, because , after dark we used to play chasing round the alleys. Eddy, help yourself to these cakes.

ER: I've had one.

TW: Have another one. Go on, don't be silly.

ER: Look at my waistline.

TW: No, honestly, eat them up mate, please.

ER: I had two poached eggs, lunchtime, and toast.

TW: Yes, these little bits of snips and that I keep on trying to get hold of, but I was so pleased to see that. I couldn't believe it, 1925.

ER: It was nice to see that old Folly sign on your shed.

RW: I'll get some more tea.

TW: Oh good.

ER: I'd often wondered where it had gone.

TW: Well, you see, when I was down at Addis's, you see, I used to have a ride round there, because Pearl, next door, was mum's neighbour, and she was so good to mum. Help yourself, Eddy, come on. And I went down there, of course Jim Bridgeman started to knock the houses down. So I went in there. I saw Jim and he said, you know, "what you on then?", so I said "well", I said "I was born on this house". He said "yes, that's right". I said "well, my mum lived here over 78 years", so, I said "what's the chance of one of them old chimneypots off the top?" He said "of course you can". So he said. Anyway I got a couple of chimneypots, you see. They're the two that's in the garden there on the left hand side. So I said "one other thing, Jim" I said "what about that Folly sign over the front door?" He said "well, yes, you can have that". See, so anyway he charged me pound. I said "two pound" I said "blimey, bought this over and over again". He said "we got have something for getting them down, haven't we?" Anyway..

ER: So, that was for chimneypots and the Folly sign?

TW: I got two chimneypots and the Folly sign for two pounds.

ER: Two quid.

TW: Yes, and thrilled to bits. So, I thought "what am I going to do with them now?". So anyway I put the Folly sign over the old shed door there. People kept saying "what's the Folly sign down there for?". Because there is a folly over at Stansted Abbotts.

PR: Yes.

ER: Yes.

TW: But, that's the old original one, anyway, yes, I've had my eye on that one, Nicholas Lane. Now I've told you, I can't get it. But that one beside the Castle, library, by old Barbers bit, Nicholas Lane.

ER: Oh yes, everybody knows that's there, so don 't you get going down there nicking that.

TW: I photographed it.

ER: Because we know all about that one, because we've done walks down there.

PR: We point it out to the visitors.

ER: We tell all these people who come.

PR: If it goes one dark night, we shall come round to number 22.

TW: When Barbers closed, you didn't go round there, did you?

ER: No, I've never been down in Barber's Wharf or Adam's Wharf I've only been down there twice.

TW: Yes, well I went down there the day he closed down.

ER: When Barbers finished?

TW: Yes, I saw Barber in the town. He said "tonight" he said "if you've got nothing to do" He said "come round", because I always got my garden stuff from him, you see. He said "we're doing a conducted tour of the buildings". "Oh", I said "lovely, what time?" "Half past six". So, I goes over there, and I took some lovely photographs in there, in the old maltings and all round. And we had a lovely evening in there, some of those old buildings were unbelievable

ER: So, did he lay on wine and …

TW: Oh, no, no, no. But, no see, as kids we'd use that all the while for fetching coal from, either there or McMullens.

ER: Yes, course in the corner of that wharf there's a building that the Hertfordshire Preservation Society have had it made a preserved building.

TW: The little office?

ER: No, in the corner of the actual yard, part of the maltings, there's a round bit with a, could be a weather vane on top.

TW: On the top. The dome, yes, yes, yes.

RW: Help yourself to sugar.

PR: Eddie, I'm going to be a nuisance.

TW: There you are, look.

ER: That bit there, Ted.

TW: Yes, this is the inside of it.

ER: Is it, 'cause I was talking to Dorothy Abel Smith the other day.

TW: Here you are, look, Nicholas Lane.

RW: Oh, dear, we're not going home tonight.

TW: But, you see this is the buildings in there. All the old thing now that, that old hand on that door, they reckon they were pitching the roof, and a bloke fell into the pitch, and he put his hand on the door, and that was a print.

ER: Hand print.

TW: From the hot print.

ER: And that stayed there forever.

TW: And that's still there, well, not now, because they built it into flats.

ER: They're good pictures, Ted.

TW: But these are all taken in there, and this is the old motor beams, look, and the old beams of the roofs.

ER: And that all stayed in there from years gone by?

TW: Oh, yes, yes. And you see, this lot here, that's looking up through that copper dome. That's where they had the old flowerpot burners. Now, that's an unusual shot.

ER: Yes, it's the other way round. Generally people take pictures from there down here, don't they?

TW: This is it, you see.

ER: Come on Peter, you have a look.

TW: This is taken from Adam's Wharf.

PR: Yes.

TW: Looking over that way.

PR: Downstream, yes.

TW: Old Bossy Taylor's, Meadie's old yard . Now see that was a bit of a worry, wasn't it? when they, Andrew's the stonemason, when they took it down, he had Hoddesdon House and nobody knew why.

PR: Well.

RW: You'll take these photos, won't you?

TW: This is Hartham Lane, you see, the old Unicorn, and the Nags Head, that's before......and after, you see. There's the motorway and that, up the old Ware Road. Eddy, why don't you take this and have a look through it, and let Peter have a look through it, sometime?

PR: Oh, wouldn't that be a treat.

RW: That's the best way, isn't it?

ER: I'm going to be very rude Ted, and say to you both, " what are you going to do with that, eventually?"

TW: Well, you see now, this here look is, there's Adam's Wharf, that we know. There's the Folly taken from the roof of the Gascoyne Way car park, you know, and Riverside.

ER: 'Cos that is , that is priceless , you know.

TW: And these, you see, I 've taken the old Hertford Club in Bloom two or three times. You see, now, that one there, taken from the Hertford Club doorstep looking up Bull Plain, a lovely old gateway. Bluecoat School, the lovely old gateway there. Different places in Hertford.

PR: You've got the light just right.

TW: The Castle, you see, some of these earlier ones, St Andrew's Street, Old Cross. Oh, there's some old family ones here, but that's down Hartham, you see.

PR: Yes, and the river.

TW: You see that's another nice one, taken from over Adam's Wharf of the old club and the weeping willows, showing just the sign of the Barge there, look.

PR: Cowbridge School.

RW: They are nice, aren't they?

TW: Yes, that's looking up from the old bottom playground to the top playground.

ER: Oh, sorry.

RW: Because Rita's submitted…

TW: It's not why she's on her knees.

RW: What's he got in there.

ER: I'm looking for my coat.

PR: I've finished my film, so there's. . .

RW: Oh, no don't bother.

PR: No, no, no, there's one on the. ..

RW: Oh no, don't bother, Peter, you've taken enough photograph anyway.

PR: I didn't want to twist your arm.

RW: What do you want, dear?

ER: My jacket.

RW: Your jacket, it's out here.

ER: Is it?

RW: There you are, don't catch cold. There you are.

TW: You see, these are the old foundry ones, Eddy, Carrington's old building, that's the old snob shop. What's up?

ER: I just want my keys.

RW: There, I'm a nuisance aren' t I.

ER: No, you're not.

PR: Where's the snob?

TW: Carrington's old building, and that's what we called the snob shop, this little place on this corner, right on the corner.

ER: Mr Brace's.

TW: This is where you come over the Folly Bridge, this is where Walls's used to be and the old ... You see, this is where they're knocking it all down and rebuilding all the different bits.

PR: Oh, there were Walls's there. I thought Chambers Street I had them.

TW: Yes, same family. In fact, by my back door there, I've got a couple of cast iron sheep, that were made down there, down the Folly, they were my grandmother's, yes. You see, these are different places in Ware. This was where. That just poked in there, didn't it? That's the original one, that's the Folly sign, look, and that's was the end house of these four, and that's the ones they've got now.

PR: Yes, no chimneys on, you see.

TW: No.

PR: The Council built those and the you've ... in recent years we've had letters round saying "please don't take down your chimneystacks".

TW: That's right.

PR: But they built.

TW: Yes, you see, Eddy was on about this plaster finish.

PR: Yes.

TW: And these were brick.

PR: There's one bright yellow one there now.

TW: Oh dear.

PR: Meant to be primrose.

TW: Is that right?

RW: It's bit difficult to get through, like a prison actually, isn't it, can't get out.

TW: The old fire at the back of Church Street, but um.

PR: You get on the ball, when it happens.

TW: I have a look around if I can, you know. You see, these are nice ones of Adams Wharf. There's some of the old Folly kids. That's when we went to Walton-on-the-Naze. Now, that's me, I was about what six there, my brother, Doug, Hazel Plumb, all Folly kids, Eva Foster, Arlene Game, Jeremy Game, Frank Savage, Kenny Hasler.

RW: These photos make you feel old, don't they, I won't get mine out now, had a look at them.

TW: The London Eye

PR: That's a tremendous shot.

TW: That's taken from the Salisbury. I went in there one night, and old Walter was in there, and I said "any chance of poking my nose out of your bedroom window upstairs" I said "and get a few shots for Hertford in Bloom?" "Of course you can" he says. And there was several I got from there of Hertford.

RW: Where's Pam gone this afternoon, where's she gone?

ER: She's doing some housework.

TW: That was funny because this is a postcard that was issued round the town, of the Barge. There's me, Jim Rist's wife and Aggie Dunrew. It must have been one dinnertime when I'd gone from Addis's down the Folly and had a pint in the pub and got caught out.

PR: Olive, is it?

TW: Olive, that's Olive, yes, Jim Rist's wife, Olive, me and Aggie.

PR: Yes.

TW: They must have come up the river "oh, what you doing here, Ted, sort of thing, you know. Now, that's it. But, no, as I said, take these away with you.

PR: Oh,

TW: And between you, have a look through. Now here, Peter, you probably... I'll show a couple of pictures I've got in the other room first. This is 1902, South African War, now they're battle scenes from Spencers of Hertford. Now they were clothiers and outfitters in Railway Street.

PR: Gosh, that's a treasure.

TW: Only I've got another one that I've had framed, and I'll tell you why I know, because... I'll roll that up again . . . I've had the other one framed, but I keep it here now. I mean, this can be put right, framed, and what they do, they take the wood off the ends, I had it done in Fore Street, some years ago now, and made a nice picture of it, actually. But, you've probably seen all this sort of stuff before anyway, Peter.

PR: Well, I've seen that Pageant book somewhere, but I don't know where, maybe the Museum, but, oh yes.

TW: So, I was down at Addis's for forty years.

PR: Yes.

TW: So I've got a lot of Addis stuff here. That's Hertford information, I don't where, somebody gave me that. Mr Sheffield, he lives in the town, in the village here now, and he gave me some paperwork on Sheffield's, the old chemists and things like that, you know. And these are old Hertford.

PR: Ah, tremendous treasures.

TW: Now, that's the Green, what was the Green. The houses at the bottom are Riverside.

PR: Yes, over the river.

TW: So, you can imagine where that could probably be.

PR: Yes, City Street, that would be.

TW: Was it? Was it Green Street, City Street?

PR: Yes, yes, City Street was along the ... oh, no, I think City Street went parallel to Riverside.

TW: Did it? I know mum used to say Boney Costin never used to come along Hartham Lane drunk, swim across, his old lady used to give him a walloping and chase him back, and they used to cross over. That's Mill Bridge, taken from down the Folly.

PR: Yes.

ER: I mean, you haven't half got some pictures, Ted, haven't you?

RW: I'm just about fed up with books and books, I said "please, Ted, don't take any more photographs" books and books of photographs.

TW: The best thing to do is take them with you, really, have a look though them, and if you want a print taken, I mean I got these done in the Hertford Graphics.

ER: You know, because they're going to mount, hopefully this year, they did an exhibition about Sele Farm, and they put it in the Museum.

TW: Oh, did they, yes, yes?

RW: I thought we saw it, didn't we?

TW: Yes, we did.

ER: They're hoping to do something similar on Folly Island, and it's things like this.

RW: That's right.

ER: And you said you'd got a ration book, and has it got a Folly address on it?

TW: Yes, I've got it upstairs, yes, yes.

ER: And if you would be prepared to lend, I mean, I'm always dubious about doing this, because you lend something, you might not get it back.

TW: No, well, as I say, I mean, I trust you two with these.

PR: Oh, I see where we are, yes, because I've just got the bridge.

TW: Now, this is the Folly bridge, you see. This is old Bossy Taylor, or Sandy Taylor, as we knew him. Them cottages were on the side of the bridge, before you get to the... Eddie probably don't remember. This is the Folly bridge, Eddie.

PR: Is that where Percy Burton was born?

TW: Probably was. That's where old Bossy Taylor, as we knew him, down there, Sandy Taylor.

ER: So that's Bull Plain side.

TW: Yes.

ER: Where they built the clinic.

TW: 'Cause that's the bit of waste ground between the bridge and the clinic.

ER: Yes, because they buiIt, Macs had got some those houses, down there, because I remember Eric Parker.

TW: They're still there, yes, they're still there.

ER: Living there, who was.. .

TW: Lily Wilkinson used to live there when we were kids.

ER: Yes, yes, because Peter 's got some shots of those, and he always says about the shiplap woodwork.

RW: Yes, yes, yes.

TW: That's at the back of Hertford Iibrary. You used to come to the dentist, and there was a little alleyway went to the left. John Frost and them lived there. They might have been McMullen's cottages, I don't know.

PR: Yes, probably would be, yes.

TW: If you went through there as kids, we used to go round there, and he was there.

PR: I never went there. They may have gone before my time.

TW: That's Millbridge from the Folly again.

PR: Oh, yes.

TW: That, they tell me, is part of the old Hertford Gaol, that's the old original wall round the gaol.

PR: There is a window, if you go under the new, whatever they call it, Court. Centurion Court, or something or other, down low, lower than this, there is a window from the gaol, that looks as if it's part of that same wall. But it's a, well, they say it's the condemned cell, but it's about that height.

TW: Oh, yes.

PR: In the shrubbery.

TW: Oh, I see.

PR: And I guess it's the same wall, but, you know, what is still left of it.

TW: Now there, what we knew, when we was kids, from the Gasworks bridge, between the Gasworks bridge and the Dicker Mill Bridge, that was all over there, those old cottages stood opposite. They knocked them down in the end, there was a prisoner of war camp there for the Italians, during the war.

PR: Oh yes, that's an old Livings coal delivery.

TW: You might find repeats there. This is St Andrew's Street, old Des Arbon's shop and Cross and Palmers' gateway.

PR: Used to be a greengrocer there.

TW: That's right, yes, and then the cafe, the Victory.

PR: Oh, the Victory, yes, yes.

TW: The Victory Cafe, yes, I remember when I was with Wrens, I used to go up here with bread, buns.

PR: They 've altered the dormers, taken the dormers out.

TW: Have they?

PR: But it's still there

TW: There's Cousins old shop, up there. You see, I mean, this building, I mean, is a bit of a spectacle really, because that's up, this is Andrew's the vets, well that's where the gas showrooms were, isn't it?

PR: I thought, I thought Cousins had been there longer than that. I mean that was Small and Burgess that people used to talk about, with the same kind of lettering as Cousins had a bit later.

TW: Oh, I see, yes.

PR: You know, the window was the same, wasn't it, for Cousins, I think?

TW: But, you see, this was where the gas showrooms were, wasn't it?

PR: Yes , and down there you could ...

TW: You come up here and was Munnings.

PR: You can still walk through there.

TW: I think that's the gateway to the old stonemason's at the back there, you see.

PR: Now you can actually walk down that beside the gas showrooms and come out in opposite.

ER: We went down there last Friday, didn't we Peter? You have to open the electric gates, to get through from Fore Street into Railway Street. Yes, there's got to be a right of way.

TW: That's the big house down the Dicker Mill.

PR: Oh, yes.

TW: The army was there during the war and that.

PR: That's nice Art Deco. I've got a super slide of that, just like your photo.

TW: You see this is where old Nobby Game was. They used to fish off of here. This is that pub and Wickham's brewery.

PR: I think Len gave me that slide.

TW: Yes.

PR: It's exactly the same picture. You know, so it's funny that there's two of them, that we've both got.

TW: This is old Tommy Eilis's on Bull Plain, you see, before they built the Arcade. Now, that's that place where Morris's used to do the old furniture, next to the Museum. The Arcade went through here somewhere, obviously.

PR: Yes, yes, right between the two.

TW: Yes.

PR: Well, yes, because they rebuilt, Pearks, went in there, didn't they, on the corner.

TW: Yes, that's right, yes.

PR: And then Creasey's there.

TW: Old Mrs Webb had it for...

TAPE ENDS