Interviewed by Trish Goldsmith
Date: 23/04/2001
Transcribed by Flora Cox
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O2001.10
Interviewee: Brian Bromley (BB)
Date: 23rd April 2001
Venue: Dane End
Interviewer: Trish Goldsmith (TG)
Transcriber: Flora Cox
Typed by: Flora Cox
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
TG: OK. Well I'll start with the introduction for the museum, which is to say I'm at the home of Brian Bromley in Dane End. It's quite a privilege actually because I think of Brian Bromley as one of the famous Hertford names, so it's rather a privilege to come and talk to him. And it's the 23rd April 2001. I'm going to start at the beginning and ask you Brian, where exactly were you born?
BB: I was in Queens Road in Hertford at Holly Lodge which is on the corner of Hagsdell, and lived there for about seven or eight years, then moved down to Number 15 Queens Road which is near the bottom, and, lived there until I was seventeen. Do you want further?...
TG: Yes, whatever you want. As I say, then what? Where did you move onto from there?
BB: Then we moved on - all the whole way to Hertford Heath where we lived until well about 20 years I think, in Hertford Heath. It was the first house that my father actually owned, and the greatest thing he ever did because of course it was in the days when houses were very cheap. And we were later able to sell it for quite a large, for quite a large profit, which has enabled us to not be too poverty stricken for the rest of our lives, so far. Then we went to, back to Hertford, lived in Ware Road until my Mother died and then my Sister and I came up here to Dane End where we've been for 3 years and we're very happy here 'cause at last we're in the real countryside and it's a joy.
TG: Lovely. Right and what about your parents? I mean were they Hertford people?
BB: My mother was very much a Hertford person. Lived here - again she lived in Hertford all her life apart from for a little trip to Hertford Heath and born up in Morgans Walk, as it was called then I guess, well - Morgans or something now. And she went down to live at The Hollies in Queens Road so very much a Queens Road person. And my Father was born in Hendon and met Mother at a tennis party at Winnie Baker's house in Queens Road (laughs). Queens Road, Queens Road! And there they immediately fell in love and were duly married and produced 3 children, of which I am the middle one.
TG: Right. So you've got a sister and..?
BB: ...and a brother. My brother's about to retire. He's a Professor of Geology in Denmark at Copenhagen University.
TG: Interesting. Right. Ok so, I mean, going back to your childhood, I mean what are your sort of earliest memories - of Hertford, perhaps or?
BB: Earliest memories - well the garden of Holly Lodge of course which was an absolute delight. I loved it, and later on the garden down at Number Fifteen where we had - we would've learnt to ride bicycles and so on and so forth! Thoroughly enjoyed that! Spent a lot of, my father's mother spent a lot of time with us at that time - used to encourage us to see how many times - how many circuits of the lawn we could do before we got tired and such joyous things as that. I joined the choir at All Saints Church at the age of seven where W. J. Comley - Bill Comley was organist. He was there for fifty years until he retired in (19) '66.
He was a fearsome man to my childish way of thinking and our very first choir practice I went to, through the vestry door and I was narrowly missed by a flying Psalter which he aimed at the head boy, apparently being very insolent or something. (laughs).in fact he was not a very good disciplinarian and his methods of discipline were somewhat unorthodox. But, he was, he was well loved in his way and a great, great old choirmaster, we used to cycle round the church yard a great deal my brother and sister and I, and we used to pretend we were buses and stopped at the same places every time we went round and let in some more passengers and so on, (laughs) those were the sort of early memories I have of Hertford.
TG: Right. So you had an association with All Saints Church from right from the beginning probably?
BB: Yes. I celebrated my 50th anniversary at All Saints Church ....
TG: Gosh.
BB : …A couple of years ago with a twelve-hour concert which is in fact the second of twelve - of the three 'twelve hour' concerts which I think will happen in my life, at the church. But not - I don't do the concert entirely by myself obviously. Everybody - all the musicians in the choir had to do something and one or two visitors come from outside to, to pad, pad up the programmes a bit. But the third one's hopefully going to take place in July of this year.
TG: Sounds good. What about school? Which school did you go to?
BB: I went Duncombe school in Bengeo, well you know where that is? And then to Hertford Grammar school...
TG: Which is now Richard Hale.
BB: That's correct, yes.
TG: And I mean, are there people, Hertford people, well people that are still in Hertford that you remember, or even famous people because I know that Richard Hale has sort of had some famous sons hasn't it?
BB: Indeed. John Bennett is probably the one, only one I know now who's the teacher who taught - oh Bob Young! but John Bennett taught me maths, and he was very good teacher and Bob Young taught me English. I think probably it's rather nice that they're the only two I know because they're the only two teachers that I really respected there, I think. They were first rate and they taught me a great deal and still are very delightful people.
TG: And what about sort of colleagues in school?
BB: I've lost touch with all of them, a lot of my contemporaries. I was in that year when all the bishops appeared again, so (laughs) we were a very religious group. So I joined the Scripture Union at the school and was completely non-plussed - didn't know what they were talking about most of the time! But I pretended to be very wise, and a quiet person I was on those occasions.
Anthony Howell was somebody perhaps who's, who was a very close friend of mine. He also lived in Queens Road. I've rather lost touch with him, but I see his name all the time on the backs of CDs. He's become a recording engineer - a professional recording engineer - and he works with the top musicians in North all fields and produces recordings. I see him - I've exchanged Christmas Cards with him. John Marks was my joint head boy at All Saints. He came back from Kings College Cambridge where he'd been a chorister. I'm still in regular touch with him. He's an extraordinarily nice chap; sings with the London Symphony Chorus. Not sure if he still does. He's been with several London choruses. Otherwise no, I've lost touch with just about everybody.
TG: And you say that you sort of were friendly with other boys at lovely Queens Road. What about at primary school? Were there other people that, you know, were sort of Hertford names?
BB: There was Wingate, Andrew Wingate, who's - now what is he? - Great Uncle lives at The Hollies in Queens Road now. Andrew lived there I think at that very same house - certainly somewhere up there - and with his little sister Mary-Ann. I actually heard about them recently but I can't remember what I was told unfortunately! (laughs) They've done very well. Andrew of course blew a finger off - he was an adventurous young man and he decided to make himself a firework in a bicycle pump and then thought it would (indistinguishable) to see what would happen if he actually pumped it! And he lost an eyebrow and a finger. He wasn't an exact contemporary of mine. And I'm not sure Jonathan Fardell counts - another person I knew very well. He lived in Bengeo. His father was something big at County Hall I think and I liked him very much but we weren't the closest of friends.
Transcribers Note: Jonathan’s father was Geoffrey Fardell
TG: And after secondary school, then what?
BB: Trinity College of Music, thanks to, now I'm going to forget a name. The Music Director at Haileybury came into All Saints Church one day when I was practicing the organ. I was just about to leave school and I decided with my Father’s advice and help that I was going to work in a music publisher’s - Boosey and Hawkes actually. I think the actual place was secured for me. And he came up and he apparently liked what I was doing because I didn't know him from Adam. But he came in and said, asked me "who I was and what I was going to do with the rest of my life?". So I told him and he said "no you're not I'll get you a place in a music college" and it surprised me really, I didn't, I did very badly at school. I only got three O-levels and one A-Level - music at both - so I had no qualifications really and without him my life would've, just wouldn't have happened because – Snowdon his name was - Bill Snowdon.
He indeed got me a place at Trinity College and there I got my qualifications as a music teacher. I'd never dreamt of being a teacher up to that time. Another further year at the Institute of Education to get myself, my fully qualified as a teacher, and took an interview for a job in Middlesbrough, in a secondary school. Looked around, thought this is a bit over powering, a bit over-whelming, but the teachers all seemed very nice indeed and they said "oh we'll help you, we'll do Gilbert and Sullivan and things like that with these children" and I thought they didn't look the sort who'd want to do Gilbert and Sullivan.
Having come home, having accepted the job, I reconsidered and wrote and turned it down. Got a very, very nasty letter back I remember. At the same time another heavenly angel came to my rescue because a friend of mine, Dorothy Hubbard, who was the wife of the choir master at Hertford Heath. (She) was teaching at Abel Smith School and, leaving the area, and the Head Master wanted somebody there who could continue what she'd done in music. And she suggested me and so I duly had an interview - another of these interviews where everything was arranged beforehand! Just like the Trinity one. And spent my first four years of teaching at Abel Smith, which was delightful and very, very happy. And four years there, then I did three years at Harward Hill School, a big junior school in Welwyn Garden City, and then twenty-five years as Deputy Head of St Clements School in Cheshunt, which is a church school. Where I was very, very happy, (and) where I still go back regularly to help with football, and cricket, and chess and the days assisting in the classroom. Which is my way of enjoying my retirement.
TG: Lovely. You mentioned that you were playing the organ at All Saint s. Well, you joined the choir when you were seven, when did you start studying? Had you started learning the piano by then?
BB: Yes, I was learning with Bill Comley's daughter, Nora. Nora was a very fearsome teacher - she rapped me on the knuckles all the time as I tried to play my scales - I didn't try very hard but that's why she rapped me on the knuckles I expect. I wasn't very keen on my practice and I think probably kindness would have been a better method with me but she certainly meant well and she certainly made me learn quite a lot, which was, which was good in its way. So yes, I played the piano and then my friend Anthony Harlow - I've already mentioned in connection with the recording engineering that he does now - was also in the choir. And he in the end started learning the organ with Mr Comley and I went down weekends sometimes, because he was my best friend, I suppose. And stood there. And in the end started to interfere, drawing stops and things while he was playing, "if you want to do it why don't you get lessons too?" So I duly did.....
TG: What age did you start learning the organ?
BB: I'm not exactly sure but I think it would be thirteen or fourteen. and Comley was a very good teacher. Very set in his ways; he'd been there for nearly fifty years. He'd helped me - very, very keen that I do well - and I think he realised that my dream was to take over from him! Even though I never told that ...(laughs)...told him that. Of course, I put my foot right in it when I was at college. I asked my organ teacher there, Harry Gabb, whether he, whether it was possible to get people like himself to come and do recitals, in a town like Hertford, and he said "Yes" and I said "Oh how much will it cost?" and he told me. And I went back to Comley and told him what I'd done - I really hadn’t done anything wrong at all, I'd just simply enquired - but he was absolutely furious. I was put into Coventry for two years.
TG: Oh dear!
BB: I had been in the choir as long as I hadn't been expected to speak to Comley at all. (laughs) Which would've gone on I suppose forever. But what I didn't realise that February 1966 was the celebrating of his 50th year as choirmaster and organist at AJI Saints. And just before that, well I suppose it must have been in the previous, at the end of the previous year, his wife was sitting, his second wife, was sitting up in the organ, which she did because he was getting quite elderly. And (she) suddenly came charging down to me in the choir stalls and said "come quickly". The organ was still going on and I didn't know what it could be and there he was dripping with blood poor man. He'd got a pouring nosebleed. So in the middle of the verse of the psalm, I'd moved around, we moved around the bench, he got off one end, I got on the other, and I took over from him in mid-verse. . .
TG: Amazing!
BB: .....and he was so impressed that he decided he would speak to me again and he recommended me to be his successor to the, to Reg Haw, who was then about to appear at All Saints.
TG: and did Professor Gabb ever come to Hertford?
BB: No.
TG: (laughs)
BB: No, we had, we got better people than him. (laughs)
TG: (laughs ). Well obviously, on the subject of music, I mean, what are your sort of musical tastes? favourite composers? or is that the impossible question?
BB: It does change from time to time.
TG: Yes, that's right.
BB: Since my late teenage years I've absolutely devoted to the music of Bruckner. I love Bach, and I like Bach more and more as I get older, and I've still got so much to learn because there is so much of it. I'm going through and learning - I've learnt over half of the cantatas now, which I think is quite gratifying on CDs and wonderful, just incredible feasts of wonderful music. I can't believe that those people, his congregations, were treated to such incredible music every Sunday, virtually.
TG: So, you've been involved with All Saints church. What about the vicars? I know in some churches, choirs and vicars get on well, and in others some of them don't. I mean I'm not asking you (laughs) to be too sort of personal here but were there any vicars that you particularly remember as being sort of particularly helpful? With the choir and the music or…?
BB: Mr Burges. I can't remember what his Christian name was because I was just a little boy - was vicar when I went there as a choirboy. The only thing he really said to me every time he met me was "You've got to become trained as a priest". He convinced me in the end that that is what I should do. I grew up in, through my teenage years thinking that is what I was going to do. (Pause) He went on - lets think now, did Reg Haw take over straight from him? - I think he did. There was a short interim, I think, when he went. Oh no, we had Christopher Perone didn't we first for a short while. Well I'm not critical really, I just didn't get on with him....
TG: Indistinguishable
BB: I wasn’t organist or anything like that just didn't like the man . Reg Haw came at the time I became organist and appointed me before he came by letter. He was a wonderful man. I had after my own heart. The only vicar I'd known to refuse to pay the Diocesan Quota in full because it had been wasted on people typing stupid letters and forms, for them to fill in, and he wouldn't let the PCC pay the quota in full. I almost thought 'well this is sensible' because the Diocesan, the Diocese wastes so much money on pen pushers. I had one argument with him over the installation of the clock in the tower because I was sure that it was going to be audible inside the church and would it be chiming just at the time we’d be singing our anthems in the Evening Service. And I said "No, you can't have it" . (laughs) Which was very stupid of me.. ..
TG: (laughs)
BB: ... because he was trained in, his argument was a million times better than mine. And he very quickly told me that I was talking absolute rubbish. And when the clock had been installed of course you could only just hear it inside the church. So I never, never fought with him again.
TG: I wasn’t aware of it in All Saints.
BB: No, it's um..
TG: I mean I think St Andrews and Holy Trinity, one of them strikes on 'E', and one of them strikes on 'A' but I can't remember which is which. ( laughs) Which is irritating when you've just got your note to start something.
BB: No because you can hear that clock when you're alone in the church but if there are people moving , but even if they're sitting in their seats, you don't notice it.
TG: You can't notice it.
BB: No, No.
TG: Ok, so. ...
BB: Do you want to go on with the vicars?
TG: Yes, I was going to say you got as far as Mr Reg....
BB: Reg Haw.
TG: . . .Reg Haw. I think it was David Mowbray.
BB: Thank you, yes. David Mowbray came next.
TG: Who wrote some of his own hymn words but he used to use the traditional tunes.
BB: That's it. He wrote the words, with the hymn tunes in mind. Well done for remembering that. Yes, he had his own hymnbook, which he got it published with just his hymns in. Yes. Well, when he was vicar we certainly sang quite a few of them. We don't seem to sing them now. I don' t think they lasted very long after he left....
TG: There's one in the New Methodist Book actually.
BB: Oh is there! Oh right. Yes, we just tend to use the one hymn book in the church - we've got, have the latest 'Ancient and Modern' (hymn book) and we just use that. There's so man y hymns aren't there - one doesn't, really doesn’t 't want to have two hymns books.
TG: Well, it gets confusing . That's right. Ok. . ..
BB: He was a very careful, thorough sort of person. Sort of man who would start the service with the whole service written down on a sheet of paper....
TG: ..So he knew exactly what you were doing...
BB: Um, another contrast with our present vicar!!! (laughs heartily) Yes, so he really knew exactly what he was doing and never made a mistake on announcing the wrong thing or anything like that. It was all perfectly organised and beautifully thought out. He was a planner. He (pause) had a very difficult time because this was the time when we, everybody thought, that we were never going to have enough money to repair the church. There was all the business of selling St John's Hall and he was caught up between the 2 factions. The church was divided completely at this time and I'm afraid one has to say he wasn’t really quite strong enough to cope with it. I think that's why he left. He was a very, very kind man but he had some people around him who were not very kind I'm afraid and they were determined to get their way - on both sides.. . ..
TG: Which made for a difficult situation
BB: It did. I mean I remember a PCC meeting when it was split, right, exactly equal numbers of votes, on whether a piece, the land around St John's Hall I think it was, should be sold for building and he, as chairman, had to cast the casting vote. I can't remember which way it went. Luckily nothing happened anyway; we still have St John's Hall.
TG: Yes.
BB: So, yes, good man. And then we have Bill Kemm now, who (laughs) has done wonders for the Church because the Church is united. There's no doubt about that. But at the same time he was the exact opposite of his predecessor in that he cannot organise to save his life. And we have more wrong hymns than right hymns announced, I think. And this sort of thing. It does sort of tend to make the services a bit too informal when you're trying, aiming at a cathedral type service.
TG: Right. OK. Going back to the choir, in All Saints, over the years, I mean you've been in the choir at All Saints for a long time I would think.
BB: 52 years.
TG: Anybody that you particularly remember as being sort of particularly good or particularly good fun or. . .I got the impression that choirboys aren't always as angelic as they look (laughs)
BB: Of course memories of a gentleman in the choir whose name was very familiar- name's Ernie Ruffles. We know who's father he was - I only need to mention it for the tape. Ernie had the most beautiful tenor voice and I remember vividly the way he used to sing the solo, for instance, from Goss's 'Wilderness', which of course we never sing nowadays because his music is way out of fashion. Absolutely beautiful. A very quiet, (laughs) very, very quiet man. Never pushed himself forward at all. There were the Cull brothers who of course left the church a lot of money, and saved it from a great deal.
Well a lot would have happened if they hadn't left the money, they did to us. They were strange people (laughs). They were the sort of people who came to choir practices like once in a blue moon, but quite frequently came to church on a Sunday. There was one famous occasion where it was Goss's 'Wilderness' and - now can I remember his name? - yes Frank Cull was the tenor and he was standing next to Ernie Ruffles and when the tenor solo came along, 'the time of the dance’ - oh I can't remember the words, never mind. When the solo came along the two of them started on it and of course the one to stop was Ernie Ruffles so it was sung by Frank Cull instead which made some of us very angry. (laughs) Lots and lots of people. I can remember them all, which is (indistinguishable)
TG: There obviously weren't too many rules about you've got to be at rehearsal before you sing on a Sunday or were there and they just ignored them?
BB: I think they were there, but they weren't enforced strongly enough
TG: Right.
BB: and Bill Comley again - discipline wasn't quite - tried very hard.
TG: And what about people in the church, I mean church wardens and people like that? I mean where there any Hertford characters amongst those?
BB: Oh lots. Oh gosh, I can remember so many. A funny pair really in a way; I can't remember their - Bill Flory - I can't remember the Christian name of Mr Brown. Mr Brown stood about 6 foot 6 and a very severe looking face and Bill Flory was a little man, probably about 5 foot 6 I should think, and they always read the lessons. They were taking turns, and Bill Flory would come up. No let’s start with Mr Brown. Mr Brown would come up and you used to expect a great booming voice (Brian speaks in a high voice:) "The first lesson is taken from .. . " and then the second lesson would come along and it was Bill Flory and (Brian speaks in a deep voice:) this great big deep voice came out of this little man.. .
TG: (laughs)
BB: and my uncle, Sir Patrick Laird was a warden for a while. He'd been knighted through his work with the Foreign Office earlier in his life. He'd retired to Hertford because the rest of us were all there (laughs) - family and he really started the church off, I think, with its entertainments, which have become a thing at All Saints. We've had a lot of productions in St Johns Hall; members of the choir doing little acts with a few people of the congregation joining in.
TG: Yes, I was going to ask you about some of the events, not necessarily in the church, but St Johns Hall and the events associated with the church, musical or otherwise . Are there any that you particularly remember?
BB: (pauses to think)
TG: What about the Synod in 1973, I mean how involved in that were you?
BB: Very much so. I was organist and choirmaster at the time. Cyril Heath was with us then, of course. No doubt that his name was well known. . .
TG: I would think so yes, I'm sure it is.
BB: He was very much involved with organising the Synod events. He decided that a piece of music should be composed for the event. He said "Would I be interested? ", 'cause I hadn't done a lot of composing and so I said "Yeah I might be" (laughs) Anyway he produced some words of a hymn like piece, set for three verses I think there were. So I composed the music for it, and it was duly sung in All Saints Church. It was quite an interesting piece. I don't think it'll be performed many more times, if at all, but it was quite an interesting thing. We went down to the Castle grounds for a huge service. I remember we had the massed choirs there, with one or two conducting through the church choirs.
TG: I was going to say that was interdenominational?
BB: Yes, yes. Well you could just hear the brass band there playing away.
TG: Which brass band?
BB: Oh dear. I don't know.
TG: No? I mean Hertford's never had one has it.
Transcribers Note: Hertford did have a Town Band after WW2
BB: Probably Ware.....
TG: Ware, yes.
BB: I expect but I don't know
TG: Right, so that was quite a big event. So, current musical involvement. I mean are there. ... what would you describe your position at All Saints at the moment? I should know I know but I don't.
BB: Well no because I haven't got an official position.
TG: Right
BB: I play services quite a lot. Most morning services I play because Chris Benham conducts. Martin Penny is the official assistant organist and tends to play the other services. I'm not quite as competent as I was so I tend to do the easy ones because I need to practice an awful lot if they're complicated. So Martin Penny did the evening services and the particularly impressive affairs. But yes I like to do it. I'm determined to keep that up as long as I can.
TG: Are you involved with Sound Bites. I presume you are?
BB: Yes. Oh yes, I do quite a lot of those. That Sound Bites is a wonderful institution. We owe Chris Benham a lot for that. If it hadn't been for that we wouldn't be having the organ rebuilt .
TG: What about the Nocturnes, is that still there?
BB: That's not been very successful. ...
TG: Oh right.
BB: Because it's been very expensive to run with professional musicians coming in and elaborate meals put on. Buffet meals; beautiful things provided by various members of the church.
TG: Perhaps for the sake of history we ought to explain what Sound Bites are, because. . .
BB: Sound Bites were introduced by Chris Benham, shortly after he became organist. I'm afraid I'm not very sure how long ago it was. Probably four years ago. They only did lunchtime concerts which most people thought wouldn't succeed because we thought people wouldn't want to come at lunchtimes to concerts. They last half an hour after a half hour lunch, which is provided by again a group of ladies particularly lead by Rose Pullum. Some of the concerts are given by professional musicians, mostly young ones because they are not too expensive. They're just starting their careers. Lot of Cambridge and London and Colchester students, have performed and many of them quite brilliantly.
We've had a very high standard of music. Other concerts are given by amateurs, members of the church, particularly, myself I don't really describe Chris Benham as an amateur, but he accompanies a lot of the soloists who come. He's a wonderful pianist. I've done quite a few with young people, particularly with Ashley Wilmott De Win and Fiona Thomas, who are my two star turns. Now I'm not teaching either of them unfortunately but Ashley because his voice is broken of course. That's about it really. We have them during term time, on Wednesdays at lunchtime,
TG: Oh it's every Wednesday.
BB: During terms yes, yes. We stop during holidays. Nocturne is where, it's evening concerts, again Chris's idea. Full-length concerts with one, two or three people performing, and we have had this one quartet. They're lovely concerts but not enough people came to make them pay so I don't if they're going to restart or not.
TG: They were on Saturday evenings. Is it possibly because they'd got other things happening on Saturday evening as well?
BB: Possibly
TG: There's not much competition over lunchtime, I dunno. It's very interesting.
BB: It's very difficult to tell.
TG: Yeah. These things are always unpredictable. Right well, personally I'm quite interested in the vicarages. Now the current vicarage has been, was built 1950s. Do you remember anything about that?
BB: I would say it would've been, if it was '50s it must have been late '50s.
TG: Right.
BB: Because I can remember it happening and well I suppose I might have remembered at the age often but I don't think I’d have noticed at the age of 10, so I think it must have been late '50s. I think it was while Burges was still vicar, but again I'm not sure of that.
TG: Right
BB: But I think I forgot about it really.
TG: But prior to that I think the Glebe House, which is off Hagsdell Road, I think there was a parish room as one of the rooms in the house. I mean do you ever remember going there or anything?
BB: I don' t, no.
TG: I'm still researching that, so. ..
BB: That's all right. I can't talk much on that.
TG: No, that's ok. You talked quite a bit about your working life. Sort of thinking, you know, it's Hertford people that I'm interested in; people that you've met through your time at All Saints or anywhere else really, that might be of interest. You know, might link up with other people that are being interviewed.
END OF SIDE ONE
SIDE TWO
TG: … over the years. I mean obviously there have been various rebuilds and work done on the organ. Is there anything that you'd like sort of to add to that?
BB: Yes. Now of course we've got a rebuild. This organ has had to be cleaned thoroughly and overhauled a good 25 / 30 years
TG: Because it's a Father Willis I think isn’t it?
BB: It is yes. It is indeed probably the last, last Father Willis . It's certainly the last Father Willis which he actually voiced himself. You can, there are records of him up in the organ there, with a funny little cap that he wore on his head. (Indistinguishable.)
TG: Has it got a date on it?
BB: 1898.
TG: Right.
BB: The organ was built to his specification, obviously as far as possible. Money ran out, there wasn't quite enough. Amounts sound laughable now - you could only buy a stop for half a crown, which would now probably cost £4000. But the records are quite funny to look at. I haven' t got them. But the, he was very upset because the money had run out - he thought this was going to be one of his better organs. He had various stops planned; a pedal reed which the money couldn't be found for, so he said "If you allow me to build a screen round the organ, will you provide the money for the ophicleide" or perhaps it was the other way around? But anyway he offered to produce one of these things. So All Saints said "No" apparently, they couldn't possibly find the money, so we had neither a screen round the organ or a pedal reed. So a few years later the money was found but they didn't choose the stop. They chose to put the screen round the organ. It wasn't the father who built the screen it was his son.
And various stops were added over the years but the organ has never ever been completed as he wanted it, all the stops that he wanted, until now. Of course there are lots of stops though, which he didn't particularly want. The main re build took place in 1971. I mean, we had to raise a lot of money to do this. We had various means of doing it. But thank goodness we were able to do it. But nowadays we wouldn't have been allowed to do what we did, which was to add a lot of upper work - that's high pitched stops - to make it possible to make a sound similar to a baroque organ, so that you could play Bach properly. Fairly properly, not quite properly, but fairly properly.
So we did this, and lots of people criticised it since, but that's from a historical point of view. From a musical point of view this made the organ much more versatile, and thank goodness we haven't had to get rid of it at all. So now we're using the money a) to complete Willis's scheme in addition to what's already been added and to add further depth and more power to it. So it's going to be a very complete organ. At the moment the organ builders are on strike because with the trouble in the church with the scaffolding up for the church roof repairs means that they couldn't possibly work with that noise going on, so the organ work has stopped. Don't blame the organ builders at all. It was quite unreasonable to expect them to work with that noise .
TG: So, how was the money raised?
BB: (19) '71. I wrote to all the national papers. I was at the age when one did that sort of thing (laughs). And the Daily Telegraph actually published my letter and I got in quite a lot of money - several hundred pounds which is a lot more than it is now of course. But one of the best money raisers we did was an Organ Marathon. My assistant Brian Sawyer and I, did a thirty-six-hour organ recital; continuous organ music, all the pieces programmed right through the night and the whole lot. And we didn't, we took it in turns to play. It was no big deal really. It wasn't difficult, but it had never been done before, so we got ourselves into the Guinness Book of Records. I found, of course, since then it's been broken at regular intervals. I think it's up to about two and a half weeks now, something like that. So we did thirty-six hours. I remember at two o'clock in the morning (we were playing two days with a night between). I was down to play the 'Bach C Minor Prelude and Fugue' and I was feeling pretty tired and somebody brought me a glass of wine. It was actually a young lady brought me a glass of wine and I remember saying "Oh, we'll leave this piece out". So I remember sitting back on the organ bench with my arm round this young lady, glass of wine in the other hand, playing the Teddy Bears Picnic with my feet on the pedals.
TG: (laughs heartily)
BB: Very naughty of me. I think the time is right to admit that that happened. We raised over £10,000 to do that and we've thus been able to do the, had the rebuild done.
TG: Over the years, I mean, have there been, you said that at the Synod that you worked with a mass choir from all the churches. What about, sort of, collaboration with other church choirs or other churches in the town. Has there been very much?
BB: One of the things I think that has improved over the years enormously is the way the churches are getting on together. I mean we seemed to have given up the idea of actually blending the Methodist Church in with the Church of England for instance, but we still seem to be good friends with them, which in some ways we weren't in the old days. There was a particular rivalry in the '60s, with, between All Saints and St Andrew 's Church. I don't know what it was that caused it. I can think of individuals who certainly didn't help to get rid of it. People wouldn't actually speak to each other because they went to the other church. It was as bad as that. You couldn't possibly go to a concert in the other church because you wouldn't be seen dead in it. (laughs a little ). Thank goodness though that things have gradually improved and it's lovely to see that St Andrews now has a large choir and they're doing well and there 's no feeling of jealousy there, I don't think, on either side. It's all quite, quite matey. I still think things could imp rove. I mean we never actually have a joint service with St Andrews choir. It could be done some time and it would be a very good thing to do because this is how you learn isn't it? Finding out what other people are doing..
TG: Absolutely. Yes, I mean, we did do something fairly recently I think where All Saints Choir were involved and people from other churches were involved to join in. I'm trying to think what that was.
BB: Oh yes. The Council of Churches who organise these services. I'm afraid All Saints have been not very good at attending them. It isn't through an unfriendly thing it's just that the choir has so much to do.
TG: So many other things, yes.
BB: That it's difficult to find A) the energy and B) the time to actually to prepare for a service like that as well. Yes, we're always told off at PCC meetings when not many of the choir have not turned up to these joint services and rightly so. I'll stop there.
TG: So, (pause) we've gone sort of through the various vicars. Other organists, who will have been in the church. I mean I remember one called Andrew Teague round about the time we came. Was he an organist or was he choirmaster?
BB: That's right, yes. Well both, yes. Andrew Teague took over from me in 1976, and I'd done my ten years and I felt that my ten years had contributed quite a lot to the choir, but I felt new blood was needed, new ideas, and Andrew Teague was a very young, dynamic fellow. Very rude to a lot of people but he really was determined to get what he wanted. He was only with us for three years but he made more impression on the choir than any other choirmaster, I would say, that we've had. One of his (pause) his successes was to compose the Communion Service which was called simply called 'The Hertford Mass' which we've sung ever since. It comes up, we have about four seconds at the moment, which we do in rotation and most people like the Andrew Teague one best. It's very simple and very straight forward. He was (pause) yes a dynamic person. I think if you listened to him playing for instance some of his transcriptions on the organ he would play Verdi pieces on the organ, and they were absolutely brilliant; very, very exciting.
I heard him some years later. He seemed to have lost that dynamism which was, which was sad. I took over from him again three years later, simply because there didn't seem to be anyone in the offing to do it and I didn't want to see the music collapse . I just did a few more years. We had a very short spell with (pause while he thinks) oh here we go (laughs) the name has gone. A gentleman from Cheshunt, who I'll remember in a minute I expect. And he didn't seem to be, although he was very successful with his school work and his music work for the County, he didn't seem to click with All Saints Choir and he very sensibly left after a few months. And then we had Michael Frith who of course was another injection of excellent musicianship into the Church because he was a, a really professional type musician, a brilliant organist, a composer of considerable merit and a very good choir trainer. And the choir went right up and did really well with him. Dr John Winter took over from him; again, it didn't work. Again, he was an experienced choir trainer, but I don't know whether it was something to do with us, or what it is, but he was very unhappy in the few months he was with us, and very quickly departed. And Chris Benham who was his assistant at the time, was asked to take over. Some of us were very worried about this 'cause Chris was intensely shy. His choir practices, when he'd taken them as assistant, had been extraordinarily dull. He would keep his head down and not look anybody in the eye. And we thought this was going to be a disaster, but we were so wrong. Chris Benham is absolutely brilliant, and he has done wonders particularly with the boys who are singing with tremendous cathedral type tone now and there's a wonderful new sense of unity in the choir and one can only hope that he'll last a long time. We've already discussed his other innovations since he came. So it's been a mixed bag over the years.
TG: Yes, I mean there is a girls' choir as well I think is there?
BB: The girls' choir was started because it was decided that was the right thing to do, I think, because everybody's so worried about equal opportunities. That was the only reason I think that it was, it was started. But having started it, we wanted it to do well. It hasn't really taken off. We're looking for a professional musician to come in and lead it and that's what really what it needs. The present leader is working very hard and trying very hard but she, it seems that the children aren't coming in. T here's no tradition yet for them to fall into, I think, until it really gets going.
TG: Presumably they do, sort of, RSCM qualifications and things like that do they?
BB: They don't, no, not at the moment no.
TG: Is that boys or girls?
BB: The boys do, but the girls don't at the moment, no.
TG: That, you know, sometimes gives them something to work towards, doesn’t it, but maybe girls are not so interested .
BB: I would have thought so. I think they probably would but it's not for me to say perhaps.
TG: What's the procedure for recruiting choirmasters in the Anglican church? I mean is it just an advertised post?
BB: Advertised in the Church Times, Musical Opinion and Musical Times, this sort of thing.
TG: And people apply in the normal way I suppose.
BB: Yes. Usually, they'll say "Well I'll come if you offer me a bit more money" because it's not a well paid job.
TG: I mean, do people... the parishioners, I mean presumably the parish of All Saints is quite large but do you get people coming from outside the parish to worship in All Saints, because it's such a big church and has a sort of strong musical tradition?
BB: In the choir, yes we have people, coming. Yes, Martin Penny and his wife come all the way from .. . (pause while he thinks, then laughs) all the way from, come from that town north of St Albans. Hemel Hempstead I think, yes Hemel Hempstead I think it was. And we have people from Ware and Hoddesdon. Over the years I used to bring in children from Welwyn Garden City when I was teaching there. Bussed them in, in my minibus, and brought them to and fro. Nowadays of course one wouldn't be allowed to without somebody else on board.
Transcribers Note: Possibly Letchworth?
TG: That's right.
BB: But, yeah people do come in from quite a distance.
TG: It's supposed to be, I think I've heard, it's the second largest church in the County?
BB: After the (St Albans) Abbey? Yes. Yes, it's the largest parish church
TG: I mean has that given them lots of problems with, well obviously on sort of planning regulations and things like this and not being able to do what they want to do. I mean you mention things about the organ that were perhaps slightly sort of you know historically may not have been correct.
BB: Yes, there's…
TG: I imagine with the building it probably causes problems too, with you know listings or is it sort of?
BB: You have to get a commission from the Diocese to make any major alterations in a church, I think this goes for any church, I don't think particularly large ones.
TG: Yes, but I mean with it being, with it being such a big building, I mean, is there? I'm presuming maintenance is quite a big headache.
BB: Oh gosh yes! (laughs) I've already mentioned the Culls who left their large amount of money to us when they died. One just shudders to think, because we can't really seem to produce enough money for that, as a parish collections don't produce enough. The Diocese demands enormous amounts of money every year so most of the money we have in collection goes there. Yes, it is a costly business.
TG: So if you're going to do anything extra, like repair the organ, then things like SoundBites are what you rely on really.
BB: Yes, that's right.
TG: So fundraising is always ever present, really.
BB: Ever present. Yes. The choir do trips to cathedrals during the summer holidays every year. This year we were supposed to be going to Dublin but the costs seemed to escalate and escalate, and it was decided, very late in the day, just a month ago, that we weren't going to be able to afford to do it. So, this was really the reason for my twelve hour concert which was supposed raise money to try and help out with that, but even that's now decided it won't be enough. So it's been cancelled. As I said, the first time we've had to cancel one but we'll still do something, as a choir. It's good for the choir to work together for a week, not just for a, you know, for a choir practice and two services on a Sunday, but to actually be together residentially for a week.
TG: Yes, sort of team building exercise I imagine.
BB: That's right, yes.
TG: What about sort of thoughts for the future? Is there anything that you think "Oh wouldn't it be wonderful if.?". Do you have any sort of dreams, you say you think very much into the future, so?
BB: Well 'dreams' yes! (laughs)
TG: (laughs too)
BB: My dream would be to have a second organ in the church, first dream, and that would be at the West end. And it would be a purely classic organ, not a romantic organ like the present one, so that one could move from one organ to another to play one that is more suitable to the sort of music that you were playing. I mean, otherwise one's dreams are just simply that one can find better and better singers to join the choir and that the standard of music will continue to rise. It mostly has over the years, gone up and up. I mean there's a, there's a 300 year history of music. There's an excellent little book at the back of the church, which was written by Gillian Sheldrick, about the history. It only comes up to Michael Frith because that's when she wrote it and nobody has brought it up to date. But it is a fascinating book and one can see how each succeeding Choir Master has built on what was there already and never allowed things to drop, which is the 2 people who did allow things to drop, realised it was happening and got out.
TG: Yes.
BB: Which is so sensible.
TG: So what's the size of the choir, I mean, on average? (indistinguishable - speaks at same time as Brian) Sunday.
BB: When I was letting children in when I was choirmaster there were up to 36 boys.
TG: Gosh.
BB: Now we're lucky if we can get 16 boys in the choir. At the moment it's, nationally it's becoming less and less a popular thing for boys to want to do, to join a church choir, but you know there is this tradition and I think it's so valuable and lots of parents want their children to come and join. There are one or two boys who are there because their parents say they've got to be. It doesn't hurt them.
TG: No. Does that affect their performance do you think?
BB: It doesn’t' t, no. (Indistinguishable) because some of the very good ones say "Oh, I'd much rather be out playing, or doing this or that".
TG: Yes, and what about the men? I mean are they sort of reasonably well balanced? Well you've got the women as well.
BB: We have. Six women in the choir, the maximum we allow. Women were introduced into the choir in Comley's time during the war because, (pause) well there was a very much lower birth rate and there were fewer boys to come and do it a that time, during and just after the war, and they stayed ever since. I think for a long, long time they felt they weren't wanted. Certainly I used to have the most ghastly scenes with them sometimes where they used to say "You don't want us here, you give all the solos to the boys" which was true (laughs) But it's just that I think we like to hear boy’s voices in church, rather,
TG: ....Yes, different sound . .. .
BB: But it wasn't that I didn't want them, at all. But it was, and I found it impossible to convince them that they weren't second rate citizens in the choir. I think that's past at last, because, well we've got such a splendid set of women at the moment, who all of them can sing really well, so they're invaluable. Yes, we've always managed to have a bass, a tenor and an alto, a male alto, soloist in the choir, almost all the time, hardly any time when there hasn't been. And good support for them.
TG: So, you can do a fair range of anthems and other music?
BB: I tell you now there are very few anthems, which we couldn't tackle. We did meet our match with 'Voices for Twelve', recently. It's, I think Chris still wants to do it but it hasn't got up to the standard where we can yet.
TG: And they rehearse once a week?
BB: The boys meet on Monday nights and the innovation there with Chris is that they don't all come together and have a practice for an hour. He has them in groups overlapping, so that he starts with the very young ones, and they're doing little simple things, learning to pitch notes, listen to a note and sing it afterwards, very easy things but obviously important straightforward elementary stuff. And gradually the standard rises during the practice. The senior boys tum up about halfway through and at the end of the practice they're the only ones there, doing elaborate oral tests and things. It's very clever the way he's done it. Then there's Friday practice, which is for the full choir, but again the boys come in first and leave first, and the adults are left alone at the end.
TG: So there's still an overlap.
BB: Which is good. It works very well. And we have a practice before each service of course.
TG: Yes. Which seems to be the tradition yeah Well I think we've talked about the past and we've talked a little bit about the future. I think we're probably more or less there. (pause) So I mean I really have to say thank you very much for your...
BB: Thank you very much.
TG: for joining us. We'll come back to you if there's anything else we need to know.
BB: Thank you Trish.
TG: But thank you for your time.
BB: Great.
END OF RECORDING