Interviewed by Mrs Cleone Gardner (CG)
Date: 14/10/2005
Transcribed by Mrs Cleone Gardner
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: 02005.5
Interviewee: Mrs Gladys Crook (GC)
Date: 14 October 2005
Venue: 50 King Edwards Road, Ware
Interviewer: Mrs Cleone Gardner (CG)
Transcriber: Cleone Gardner
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
CG: Today is the 14th October 2005 and I am interviewing Mrs Gladys Crook at her home, 50, King Edward's Road Ware to ask her about her memories of Hertford.
Mrs Crook is the mother of David Crook who is the husband of my younger daughter Jocelyn. Also the mother of Caroline Crook. Glady's maiden name was…
GC: Munday - MUNDAY
CG: Ah, and she was actually born in Hertford but she eventually married…
GC: Before I was married I moved to Ware when I was 21 and married when I was 24.
CG: Yes.
CG: So when you were 24 you married Bernard Crook of the Ware building family?
GC: Yes.
CG: Only he sadly died several years ago.
GC: He died five years ago, n the year 2000.
CG: Now could you tell me - I understand you were born on June 16th 1916 - where were your family living then?
GC: We were living in Denmark Villa, Railway Place.
CG: Do you know what number it was?
GC: 27 Railway Place.
CG: Off Ware Road?
GC: Yes.
CG: Did you have any brothers or sisters?
GC: One brother, Cyril.
CG: Older than you?
GC: Yes, about six and a half years.
CG: I believe the family was hit by a tragedy because your father died young?
GC: Well he was killed in the War you see -1918.
CG: He was killed in the First World War. Was that in Europe?
GC: I think it was in the battle of the Somme. He was buried in the British Tannay Cemetery near the village of Lille in France.
CG: So you were then how old?
GC: I don' t really know - I think in his early 30's.
CG: But you, how old were you?
GC: I was only two so I didn’t know him.
CG: You didn't know your father - It must have made life very tough for your mother with two children
So can you tell me about your memories of your life in Hertford before you moved to Ware --what about
your memories - and your schooling?
GC: Well school days I remember – happy, lovely school.
CG: Yes, right.
GC: But I was away quite a bit because I seemed to always be ill.
CG: What was the problem?
GC: Well apart from all the usual things children had - I had all those, then I had Scarlet Fever and
as in the Isolation Hospital.
CG: Which was the Isolation Hospital in those days ?
GC: Gallows Hill - in Stanstead Road.
CG: Ah -yes - at the top of Gallows Hill, Yes I remember that.
They sent you there with Scarlet fever or any infectious things. So you were there with Scarlet fever
GC: I was there. Yes, followed by Measles (laugh)
CG: Oh dear you were unlucky weren't you (laughter) So what sort. of age were you then?
GC: Oh – Eight, nine something like that.
CG: Really - so you missed important schooling time then?
GC: I did - and the next thing I had was Colitis.
CG: Oh dear!
GC: That was a long slow process in those days - very similar I think to today - I think I must have lost a whole year at school.
CG: Goodness - I know what that is like because I had it myself but as an adult. - so what school did you go to?
GC: Glengarriff in Ware Road.
CG: Glengarriff - is that the old building on the left side of Ware Road going towards Ware? With an enormous hedge built in front of it
GC: Yes.
CG: Ah, and the people who ran that were...? Do you remember ?
GC: The three sisters the Misses Morris.
CG: The Miss Morris's and their names were…?
GC: Elizabeth, Florence and Emily.
[Transcribers Note: Information learned later from Mrs Crook. Miss Elizabeth was Head Mistress, Miss Florence ran the kindergarten downstairs and Miss Emily taught the senior class. Following this interview Mrs Crook showed me a writing book with the school's name printed on the front and her own written homework and any spelling mistakes written six times at the bottom of the page. Very good writing].
CG: Right - did they live in the house as well as run it as a school?
GC: Yes they did and they had a ve1y large garden right down to Talbot Street with a. playground and garden.
CG: And how many pupils were there roughly- have you any idea?
GC: Oh it's a job to remember now - I suppose comparatively small classes, and then there was a kindergarten down stairs and about three classes upstairs -that's all.
CG: Up to what age? Did they then go to a secondary school?
GC: Well boys did.
CG: There were boys and girls – Ah.
GC: Yes the younger ones, but once they got to ten or eleven they left
CG: And went to Hertford Grammar School or wherever?
GC: Yes.
CG: Did they have a uniform for the school?
GC: Not really an official one - we wore gymslips, you know the usual white blouses and gymslips.
CG: Navy blue gymslips?
GC: Yes and furry-looking felt hats in the winter and the panamas which I liked, so I remember them very well.
CG: Straw Panamas?
GC: Yes - and the hat bands had got red and white alternate stripes - very bright colours.
(repeated by CG)
CG: So what is your memory of being at that school?
GC: Well very happy, I liked it and wish I hadn't been away very much.
CG: Yes.
GC: We had a school hymn. ‘When the morning paints the sky’.
CG: When the morning paints the sky? I don' t know that one.
GC: “The birds their songs renew, let me turn to Jesus and say “ What would he do ?” I’ll remember more when I think about it.
Tape stopped to check it
Interview continues
CG: You were remembering the school hymn, do you remember anything else about it or the school
Itself. Where they interested in music?
GC: Well Miss Elizabeth taught music but that was an extra subject and not everyone did it.
CG: No, did you?
GC: No [laughter]. A matter of costliness, I expect, with mother.
CG: Yes I'm sure. how did your mother survive financially, it must have been very difficult.
GC: Well she went to work she went to the recruiting office in Fore Street in Hertford, there was a
row of very tall houses along there.
CG: Ah near where Elliot’s music shop was?
GC: Yes in that actual row - it was probably pulled down before the music shop was built.
CG: I think it was probably pulled down when they built Gascoyne Way. And what about your brother and his schooling?
GC: Well he went to the Cowper School in London Road.
CG: Ah yes -some people call it the Cooper School don't they but Cowper School was what it
was called [spelled Cowper, pronounced Cooper]
GC: I think so - yes but my memory fails some times.
CG: So then what did he do?
GC: He became an apprentice to the Grocery trade.
CG: Did he - anywhere in Hertford?
GC: Well he started at the International Stores in Maidenhead Street.
CG: What are your memories of Hertford as a town to live in?
GC: Well its very pleasant, the Castle grounds to amuse us, we spent quite a lot of time there.
CG: The cinemas?
GC: Yes cinemas -the very old cinema in Market Street.
CG: That's right I remember that - the Regal (Regent) Cinema. I remember going there to see "Oh Mister Porter" Will Hay's film" Oh Mr Porter" and the cinema had a level floor and one step up to what was called the balcony and the back row were twin snagging seats (laughter) and it was decorated in bright orange and turquoise.
GC: Oh you do remember well.
CG: Oh yes -well I was nine when I came to live in He rtford. So what other memories do you have of Hertford?
GC: I remember them building the County Cinema.
CG: Do you?
GC: Oh yes I watched them build that.
CG: Do you… building the County Cinema! I remember going there.
GC: I went in there at various stages because my mother had a restaurant in Fore Street and we used to get customers you see.
CG: Your mother ran a restaurant in Fore Street? Whereabouts?
GS: It's pulled down now, it was Market Street, on the corner next to the Corn Exchange (discussion of location).
CG: Right - and your mother owned that?
GC: Yes she was in p a rtners hip with her brother who was a master baker, of course.
CG: Ah very handy.
GC: Yes, however it came to a sad end because the lease ran out and they renewed it for seven years and doubled the rent and then after the seven years was up they didn't release it as they wanted to widen Market Street, to widen the road. So that was the end of that .
Transcribers Note: Following this recording Gladys showed me a photograph of the Thistledoo restaurant where she worked as a teenager until it was closed in the 1930' s with her in the doorway she believes – also to be seen on page 12 of the book “Hertford’s Past in Pictures” by Len Green.
CG: Do you remember in Market Street the Covered Market on the right hand side?
GC: Yes. Oh very well.
CG: So do I and what other memories do you have of Hertford?
GC: Well, by Thistledoo there was a tobacconist shop that Miss Frogley kept.
CG: Frogley - what a name!
GC: She was a very imposing lady - she was like Queen Mary with her hair all done up and lace round her neck.
CG: Right - do you remember any others? Do you remember The Ram Inn with the Cattle Market behind it?
GC: Yes I remember it before the cattle market was there but it was considered a very… (sniff)
CG: Low level?
GC: Yes [laughter]. That's the word. Before they moved the cattle there, there used to be the Plough Inn outside Christ Hospital Church almost across the road (corner of London Road). That was a cattle market & poultry market and general market.
CG: I've got, somewhere in the back of my memory the name of the people who ran the Plough Inn, Sapstead or Sandford? Anyway I may be wrong. (Sandford). Do you remember the Gaol area?
GC: I remember the houses where we called the Gaol when we were children - Oak Street, Ash Street.
CG: Elm Street - that's right I remember that - but that's all gone and the old Gaol was down there.
GC: Yes I never saw that. We didn't go down there.
CG: Do you remember the very well known… the Cull brothers?
GC: Yes.
CG: Who wore starched dicky false fronts and cloth caps and ran a sweet shop at the bottom of Church Street?
GC: Yes.
CG: Oh you remember them?
GC: Yes I remember them - a very nice shop.
CG: Yes - and they owned a lot of property around Hertford .
GC: Yes they did.
CG: Anything else that you remember? What age were you when you when you moved to Ware?
GC: Twenty-one.
CG: So you were in Hertford until you were 21?
GC: Yes.
CG: So were you at any other school?
GC: No I had an interview for All Saint’s Church school, but Mum having discussed it, probably with the Headmistress. Thought I should go back to Glengarriff because she said it would be more difficult for me being away so much.
CG: Yes, well that probably was true. So you did all your education at Glengarriff?
GC: Yes I started at Glengarriff but when I was away ill there was a question of me not going back there or going to the other school but it didn't happen. I went back to Glengarriff.
CG: Right, so you were there until you left school. So what happened then?
GC: Well I couldn't wait to get in the shop. Mother had gone to Fore Street (laughter).
CG: So you went straight from school to helping your mother, At what age was that?
GC: I would be about 14 to 15 then.
GC: Yes.
CG: Do you remember Munnings china shop?
GC: Yes very well.
CG: Right - because my parents bought Munnings China Shop from the Munnings brothers and it was run by my Uncle and Aunt who lived above the shop.
GC: I can remember one of those brothers -just- he struck me because he was so upright, he wore tweed suits a very smart man. Didn't know him, of course.
CG: They moved to New Zealand.
GC: Oh did they, I knew they went. He just struck me one day what a very smart man he was.
CG: Right -that's interesting, I don't remember him at all.
GC: (Laughing) - I was growing up I expect.
CG: Oh I expect so -yes! And do you remember anything else about Hertford or the area around it that affected you?
GC: Well there was that row from Market Street and then there was Neales Marche, it's a restaurant now isn't it?
CG: Neales Bon Marche. Yes it is - and what do you remember about Neales Bon Marche?
GC: Oh the till system where the money rushed across.
CG: Yes I can remember that, they pulled a thing and the money rushed across & do you remember you had to step down into the shop from the pavement (yes). The floor was below the level of the pavement (yes) & opposite, do you remember …?
GC: A lot of the girls I was at school with lived on Fore Street. There was Swans Confectioners opposite Christines Cafe and it was later a dress shop & then we had the Johnson girls from the butcher's.
CG: Oh, Johnsons Ware Road. Yes.
GC: Then we had Arnold Thomas and Fowler' s the Estate Agents. Daphne Fowler was a friend of mine. So was, I can't rememb e r her name. Arnold Thomas, I can't remember the girl's name, lived in Ware Road not far from where you lived.
CG: We lived at 157 and opposite us were the green roofed houses and then a field called Miss Brazier's field where she kept horses.
GC: Yes, I remember that.
CG: Do you remember Bates?
GC: Bates Brothers grocers - yes. It had that interesting front which is still preserved.
CG: Yes Egyptian frontage
GC: Yes, we used to go in there quite a lot.
CG: What do you remember about shopping in Bates?
GC: Well a nice smell of ground coffee and things like that (laughter)
CG: They used to pack everything in paper bags, didn't they? You used to have to go from counter to counter Yes it was a very nice shop.
CG: Yes. Any other memories?
GC: Lots of shops around, but going back to school days I often think of the swimming pool on Hartham.
CG: Yes.
GC: Do you remember that?
CG: Which one?
GC: Right down the end with concrete inside it -and the river, I think, flowed through it.
CG: That's right - I remember that - green wooden huts and the river came in at one end and went through…
GC: Out the other, yes.
CG: More or less in the centre of Hartham. It was very chilly!
GC: You came across and turned left and went down a narrow path to the swimming pool at the bottom.
CG: Yes I remember that - just- and it was very cold. Any other memories of Hartham?
GC: They had a fair there at Whitson time fair. I think they still come don't they?
CG: Yes there is still a fair there at times, yes. The Folly, do you remember The Folly?
GC: Still in existence.
CG: Yes.
GC: It amazes me the prices of the houses in the Folly now (laughter). How times change.
CG: Don't they just -yes. You were 21 when you moved to Ware, why was that - why did you move?
GC: Well mother was wanting to move, to have a different house and she was looking around and Bernard's father, being a builder, said that the firm had purchased a large house which they were making into two, because it was very big and would we like to see it and perhaps have half, because Bernard's mother’s niece was having the other half and that's how we came to have it.
CG: By then you had already met Bernard?
GC: Oh yes.
CG: When did you meet Bernard?
GC: Going back to Fore Street they opened a bus enquiry office because buses used to stop outside the Thistledoo at Market Street entrance there. And they opened the enquiry office there and Bernard came straight out of school at 11 o’clock in the morning and went as a cashier for the bus company.
CG: Oh did he? And what age was he then?
GC: Well he must have been school leaving age -whatever it was then I can't remember.
CG: He was quite young.
CG: Oh yes -he was at school in the morning and at 11 o'clock they came and asked the Headmaster and said there was a vacancy for a boy who was good at figures. So he went there and was there a good many years really -there was the garage -you know -in the days when they had bus tickets you know - -looking back (laughter).
CG: So you met him in your teens?
GC: Yes he was in the enquiry office next door and was in and out of our shop all day long for half a pound of chocolates (laughter) and to is dying day he was a chocaholic ( laughter) we were teenagers then.
CG: Your memories of war time Hertford?
GC: Well we were in Ware by then, I can't work out what my age was.
CG: Well I was 13 when the war started so you must have been about 23 (yes I was). So your memories of Hertford really finish then so perhaps that is where we had better leave this tape because the Oral History really was interested in your memories of Hertford but you have lived in Ware for the largest part of your life?
GC: Yes 24 to 89 - 21 actually - I was married at 24.
CG: Well thank you very much Gladys for that. It has been most interesting - you have told me about things I didn’t know. Especially the name of the school which was quite new to me.
CG: I am just adding a little bit to this tape because I realised that I had not asked Gladys at all about her memories of Pemberton Billing who was an MP for Hertford in her youth. So could you tell me what your memories are relating to Pemberton Billing?
GC: Well I remember him being about Hertford in a car and all the people who were interested in him following.
CG: Was it a very noticeable car? A very posh one?
GC: I don't know if I imagined but I think it was a sports type of car, certainly it was open and he wore a cloak lined in red, I remember that.
CG: Right.
GC: Who were the young people flocking round him and talking to him and calling and they were singing a ditty “Vote, vote, vote for Pemberton Billing. We won't vote for Suter any more.”
CG: That’s a good memory.
GC: Yes I remember it very well. I just stood there on the path outside the shop and watched it all going by.
CG: Yes he was a man who was very involved in building houses in Bengeo but there is now a book written about him. So those are your memories of him. It sounds as though, at the time, he was quite popular as an MP?
GC: Well he was - especially with the younger generation.
CG: Any other memories around that?
GC: Not really - I know my mother wasn’t interested "Oh No, No!” She wasn't having that "You keep away from it all" she said [Laughter].
CG: Well thank you very much.
END OF RECORDING