Interviewed by Dorothy Abel Smith
Date: 01/03/1996
Transcribed by Jean Riddell (Purkis)
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O 1996.3
Interviewees: Miss BJ Kilby
Date: March 1996
Venue: Swann Cottage, Bramfield
Interviewer: Dorothy Abel Smith
Transcriber: Jean Riddell
Typed by: Jean Riddell
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
Dorothy Abel Smith: I am Dorothy Abel Smith and I am going to be talking to Miss Bertha Kilby. Miss Kilby has lived in Bramfield all her life and has a great number of memories I am going to begin by asking her about some of her early life.
Miss. B. J. Kilby, Swann Cottage, Bramfield. Read from a handwritten transcript
BJ Kilby: I was born in Cheshunt, Hertfordshire, 21st January 1908, and named Bertha Julia Kilby. I was six months old when my parents, two sisters and brother moved to live in Bramfield. Bramfield was a small village consisting of 31 houses of various sizes, a church, school, public house, four farms, a blacksmith's and approximately 250 people.
We lived in a house on the outskirts of the village, called Hopgrounds, so called because hops were growing in the garden. It was a very old house, one of the original village houses, built on the triangle piece of land, south of the 2 cottages. These were built several years later and also named Hopgrounds. I can remember the house we lived in. It consisted of four large rooms and a large outer building on the side of the house. This contained a bricked part for a furnace and a very large oven. We were told it had been used to bake bread for the village people. As most cottages were built in the olden days, bricks were placed closely together on the earth and in that way formed the floor. My mother covered the bricks with a type of lino and very thick rugs. It was demolished about 1916.
My father worked for Mr. Hale, Place Farm, a farm nearby. He controlled the dairy. The cows were milked early morning and again mid-afternoon. My father poured the milk through the cooling refrigerator into churns, mornings and again late afternoon. He had a horse and cart in which he placed the churns, taking the milk to a little shop in Port Vale, Hertford, owned by Mrs. Parcell who sold the milk in small measures to people in Hertford.
I often think of the long hours people worked in those days. My father started work at 5 o'clock in the morning until 7 o'clock in the evening. During our schooldays we children only saw him weekends - 'early to bed'.
I realise how good my mother was to us. I can remember when my sisters, brother and I were young, after tea we were washed and in our night clothes. Mother would sit in her chair by the fire and we children would sit on the floor around her. Mother lived in Hertford when she was a girl and would tell us her memories, 'when she was young.'
Mother could remember seeing All Saints' Church on fire and badly damaged; having to pay one penny each week before being allowed in the school she wished to attend - she went to school with Daniel and Lydia Dye, Daniel when he grew up was the local chimney sweep; and of various things that had happened in Hertford.
I can just remember little back yards between buildings in St. Andrew Street and Railway Street, in which were a few very old tumbledown cottages with half stable doors. Very poor people lived in these. People were afraid to go near them. A man was murdered near a pub in Railway St. I can remember a public house called The Cold Bath in North Road opposite Waters Garage; also The Castle Cinema; The County Cinema, Ware Rd, The Flea Pitt; and every street in Hertford filled with little shops.
When I was five years old I went to the little church school in Bramfield. It was nearly a mile from our house. We had to walk, taking a sandwich in our pockets to eat midday. No conveyance or school dinners in those days. The school was built next to the church, about the 15th century, a brick building with a thatched roof. It consisted of one large single storey room with arched ceiling of plaster and pine beams. Adjoining it, the teacher's private house, two rooms and small kitchen. In the kitchen was the smallest fire stove and oven I have ever seen. One window in the living room was bricked in when windows were taxed. One can easily see how later extra rooms were built on with a slate roof.
The schoolmistress who taught us was Miss Rolfe. She told us, as a girl she lived at Tring. Her father was a gardener on the estate of Lord Rothschild. Miss Rolfe, being a bright child, Lord Rothschild took an interest in her, paid for her education and she was teaching in schools.
I think she had been teaching in Bramfield about 10 years when I started school. She was very strict with us. Teaching was different to how it is today. Inspectors often came to examine our work. Also Mr. Peet called every week to check our attendance and called to enquire with our parents if we had been absent.
I often went to live with my grandparents who lived near Peterborough. I attended school while living there.
I went to school until I was 15 years old but I so well remember my early school days in Bramfield. The school mistress used to ring a hand bell. We children had to line up. The entrance porch had rows of pegs to hang our hats and coats. On entering school no talking, strict discipline. I was so nervous.
I will always remember one day, we were having a lesson in writing, English these days, called Composition in my day. We were told to write, 'What would you like to do when you leave school.' I wrote, “I would like to have a shop and sell sweets and toys.” When inspecting our work she always carried a black round ruler about a foot long. I had a rap on the back of my hand with it. She said, “With your atrocious writing and spelling, you are only fit to be a kitchen maid.”
How strange life is, to think a few years later I had my own shop in the schoolroom and lived in the (teacher's house?) I will tell you more about this later.
We were taught all subjects, arithmetic, history, etc. Some afternoons the boys were sent outside to dig and tidy the school gardens and girls had needlework lessons. The playground we children used is next to the church and churchyard.
The church, built during the 14th century was a living of Thomas-a-Becket. We were told during the Plague of London, burials took place at the back of the church. The churchyard, I can remember, was only half the size it is now. The church gate and brick wall was then as you now see it. The burial ground ended where Mr. Harrison and his two daughters are buried. A small gate in the hedge dividing the playground and churchyard. The lower part of the churchyard was used as the school garden until the First World War ended. The burial ground was filled. The Bishop of St. Albans came and consecrated the lower part of the churchyard. This is now being used for burials.
Opposite the church and school is the rectory. Mr. Harrison was the rector when I was a child. He had two very tall daughters, Miss Dora and Miss Effie. We children had to go to Sunday School every Sunday, being taught by them, 10 a.m. In the morning and again 3 o'clock in the afternoon. After the 10 o'clock Sunday School we were taken into church for the 11 o'clock service.
Mr. Harrison was a very severe person. He had a long white flowing beard and to express his sermon he would stand in the pulpit. If any child talked or made a noise they were taken from their seat and had to stand in the aisle until the service ended. No other entertainments in those days so a lot of people went to church.
Until about the mid-1930s there was no electricity, no telephones or tap water in the village. In the gardens near the houses was a well, a bricked-in hole in which the rain water filtered. One could easily find in Bramfield lots of springs and see lovely crystal-clear water bubbling up through the earth in the fields and woods. For light, when dark, we used oil lamps or candles.
Mr. Wilson who had a shop in the High Street, Watton-at-Stone came into the village usually late Saturday evening. He had a horse and cart in which he fixed orange boxes. These he filled with various groceries and delivered round the houses.
Also, Mr. Josiah Wren, who had a baker's shop near the Hertford Eastern Railway Station, sent his elder son Arthur and younger son, Ernest in a horse and cart, with flour bags full of loaves of bread, twice a week, to supply the village people with bread. Later Arthur Wren had his own shop in the Ware Rd, Hertford and Ernest had his shop in Railway St, Hertford.
For other goods people walked 3½ miles into Hertford and walked home carrying goods, usually on Saturdays. That's 7 to 8 miles to Hertford and return. No cars or buses in those days. Mr. Harrison, the rector, a wealthy man and his two daughters; also Mrs. Browning who owned Bramfield House, in her early days was a Lady in Waiting to Queen Victoria. Her son, Sir Fredrick Browning married the authoress Daphne Du Maurier. They owned horses and carriages. I can remember seeing the coachman sitting high, on the front of a carriage in a cloak, a cockade on the side of hat, whip in hand, driving the horses. We girls had to curtsey and the boys raise their caps as they passed by. If we did not respect them, word got to the schoolmistress and we were punished, either stood in a corner for half-an-hour or a stroke on the palm of the hand with a cane. How I remember. The Miss Harrisons had a lovely big white dog that would always run in front of them if they were walking. When Fred, my brother, or I saw it coming we would scramble through a hole in the hedge and lie flat in the field until they had passed by. How different things are today.
Mr. Burnett-Smith - his wife the authoress who wrote books under the name Annie S. Swan - was our Doctor and if badly needed, came from Hertford to Bramfield in a pony and trap to visit patients.
When I was about eight years old we moved to Bramfield Bury, a large house which had been divided into three. We lived in one half and the other half had been made into two cottages. It was about half-a-mile from the village, down a lane beyond the Grandison Arms public house, a very small village pub.
In the east side of the pub was a blacksmith's. Mr. Allen walked all the way from Hertingfordbury twice each week to shoe the horses from the farms etc. When we passed by occasionally he would let us work the big bellows of the furnace until the iron he was working on was red hot. Unfortunately when agricultural machinery was used instead of horse and plough the blacksmith's shop was demolished.
We had many happy years living at Bramfield Bury. I think about seven. My father offered to rent the Bramfield Road lodge which was nearer to the farm where he still worked. Again we moved. I was then about 15 years old and leaving school.
I was asked if I would take care of two children while their parents were at business. We knew the family well, they lived at Edgware. I enjoyed being with them. We travelled around to shows and events in London; holidays on the Norfolk Broads in a houseboat and around the English coast. I lived with them until I was about 18 years old. Then home one weekend, I was cycling to Stapleford, I caught my knee on a basket hanging on the handlebars and fell on the road, nearby the bridge, grazing my knee.
Unfortunately I picked up a germ and was very ill in the Hertford County Hospital, six weeks. The doctors thought they would have to amputate my right leg, but Doctor Medlock operated and fortunately all was well. No pain killers in those days. I am so pleased a fountain has been placed in Parliament Square, Hertford to the memory of Doctor and Mrs. Medlock. They were very kind and good to people.
Bramfield was owned by Colonel Abel-Smith who lived at Woodhall Park, Watton at Stone. He employed several men who lived in his cottages to keep the estate in order. The village is almost surrounded by woods. He loved fox hunting. While we were living at the lodge, Colonel Abel-Smith riding his horse down the lane nearby. The horse stumbled and the Colonel fell and died instantly. My mother, seeing the accident happen, quickly raised the alarm, by sending to Mrs. Turner who lived nearby and for the ambulance.
In those days the woods were beautiful. The Rides as they were called, were the width of a road and an avenue of trees meeting overhead; grass and moss to walk on, primroses, bluebells and honeysuckle growing on the sides. Did you know orchids grow in one wood? Bee Orchid and the Spotted Orchid. About two years ago I asked Mr. Stan Law who was head man for the Forestry Commission if the orchids were still growing there. He said, “Yes. But as it is now a rare protected plant, it is kept secret.” The Horticultural Society have it listed, where they are growing.
When I had recovered from my illness and was looking for employment, I saw an advertisement 'an assistant wanted' in a little shop on the Old Cross, Hertford. Madam Maud selling hats, coats, dresses etc. I applied and worked there for about five years. The owner of the shop often went away and I was practically running the business. Then one day I noticed, in the window of the Old Cross Post Office - 'assistant wanted for haberdashery department and learn the Post Office work.' I applied and was employed. I worked there for two or three years.
The number of children living in the village was then about 20, aged from 5 to 14 years which was the school leaving age. Two teachers were needed to cover various classes. Miss Rolfe was retirement age and in ill health. The Hertfordshire County Council took over educating the children. Bramfield School was closed. The senior children were given bicycles and cycled to Simon Balle School, Hertford which had just been built. My sister Florence taught needlework at that school for several years. The junior children were taken by taxi to Stapleford School, a village nearby. Miss Rolfe was given notice to leave and the building stood empty for nearly a year.
Council houses were being built in the village in Holly Grove Road and Winding Shott. Mr. Hale said to my father, “I would like the lodge for my grandson”. Ian was going to marry the daughter of the headmaster of Chapmore End Reformatory School. My parents asked Mr. Abel-Smith if they could rent the school building and he gave permission. They moved in on the 7th June 1935.
People in the village were saying, “Why can't we have a shop in Bramfield?” I thought the two schoolrooms would be ideal for a shop. By coincidence a notice was placed in the main Post Office in Fore St. Hertford. The notice read they were considering opening a Post Office in Bramfield - anyone interested to apply. Six people applied. After inspection of premises it was given to me. We had the room and I had experience of Post Office work. Mr. Cordray was the Postmaster. In a few weeks my brother-in-law, Dudley Waterman converted the large school room, fixing shelves etc. to make it suitable for a shop. I visited various warehouses, opening business with 'Buttons' in Bishops Stortford for groceries, hardware etc; a sweet factory in Thaxted; a warehouse just beyond Liverpool St. Station, London to buy fancy goods, children's clothing.
I officially opened the shop and Post Office 1st September, 1935. How pleased the village people were when able to buy their goods locally, also the elderly people their pensions. The shop had been open about 2 years when Ration Books were issued and the Second World was declared.
I can remember the First World War, seeing the Airship R101* coming down in flames in Cuffley and hearing bombs falling in Hertford, killing a man on Bull Plain.
Trancribers Note : This was actually a SL11 Airship
The Second World War was much worse. We dreaded the warning sirens of air raids. A large gun and a search light was placed on the edge of a wood just beyond the village. We were fortunate bombs fell around, luckily for us in the fields, shattering windows in some of the houses. We made the small school room into a first aid room. A doctor came and gave whoever wished it first aid lessons.
In those days six stand pipes had been installed in various places around the village to supply water. I will never forget one day about midday the sirens sounded. I went to the stand pipe on the Village Green to get some water. I saw an aeroplane flying very low, coming from the west of the village. I could hear something failing around me and looking up could see a German aeroplane, swastika on wings, two men with goggles on. The engine part (cockpit) of the aeroplane was transparent. I realised they were machine gunning as they were flying over the village. I know some of the bullets are still in the Village Green. I dropped my buckets and I ran home. Mr. Turner, who lived in Bramfield House 'phoned. In those days telephones were only in the three large houses and the Post Office. He asked if anyone was hurt. Some bullets hit the front of Bramfield House. If a bomb fell near I used to 'phone the schools to enquire if all was well. The mothers were so anxious.
Soon after the war my brother Fred built the village garage.
More council houses, several now privately owned, were built in a little road called Turners Close with six houses, 18 bungalows and six flats were built on land which was years ago the Village Garden Allotments and now no longer used.
I must mention about our village hall. In about the 1930s Colonel Abel-Srnith gave to Bramfield a field to be used for recreation, a very large brick and wooden hut. This was in the days when oil lamps were used. They were very much appreciated and used to hold dances, whist drives, meetings etc. - a great asset for several years. With age it began to deteriorate, costing a lot for maintenance and so we started holding functions to raise money to build a new hall. We organised fêtes, pig roasts, dances etc. and with the help of some very kind people, raised sufficient money to build our present hall. The hall was opened 25 years ago by Mr. Tim Abel-Smith and now used every day by various clubs, also football and cricket on the field.
I will tell you more of my early memories. I realise now, Miss Rolfe taught us very well for the girls' needlework. The Miss Harrisons, the rector's daughters, asked if we would make their underclothes. We were only about 12 years old. They bought some very fine calico, the finest material in those days and we made for them, chemises. We sewed long run and hem seams with small stitches down the sides, embroidered scallops round the armholes and scalloped eyelet holes to thread ribbon round the neck. Knickers two long like very full bags, for the legs, a small band gathered in and scalloped round the bottom and gathered into a wider band with tapes to tie round the waist. How different our underwear is today.
My mother was also a very good needlewoman. She showed us how to darn and mend our clothes. I often, when in church, look at the banner and think of the days when I embroidered in gold silk 'St. Andrew's' and the three blackbirds.
I also remember so many things that happened when I had the shop. People would come and talk when they were happy or if troubled. One day a pretty little girl named Vivienne, who still lives in the village - now married and has a daughter - when she was about five years old came into the shop and asked for 'a pound of little Liberaces.' I was puzzled and (questioned?) it. She said, “I know. I have been saying it all the way up the road. Mummy wants to cook them for dinner.” Then I realised she meant chipolatas. Liberace was a famous pianist. A little boy, “Mummy wants some carrot seed to make a cake.” He meant caraway seed.
I can tell you many more sayings but how things, have changed. It is now 1996. The population in Bramfield is approximately 300 people. Electricity and water incorporated to every house. Also telephones and family cars, activities in the village consisting of bowls, aerobics, bingo, youth clubs and a nice children's playground, football and cricket. sewing meetings, church meetings, parish council and hall management meetings. Not a bit like 'the good old quiet days'.
Mr. Harrison the rector died in the 1920s. Canon Sandys who had been a missionary came to live in the rectory. The rectory, large and expensive to uphold and Stapleford Rectory became vacant, so that rectory is now home for the Rector of Bramfield, Stapleford and Waterford. Bramfield Rectory was sold privately and bought by Mr. Geoffrey Swann. During 1930 Mr. Swann had a house built on the Village Green for his chauffeur. Mr. Swann died and the two houses were sold.
I had managed the village shop and Post Office for 38 years. I was past retirement age and looking around for a house in Bramfield. I did not want to leave all the people I had grown up with. The house on the Village Green became vacant. My sister had also retired so I sold my business, the Bramfield Shop, and my sister and I bought the house on the Village Green and named it Swann Cottage and have lived here nearly 20 years. How quickly the years pass by!
Dorothy Abel Smith: Miss Kilby preferred to tell her story without questions so I know she would not mind me adding a postscript to her fascinating recollections. Bramfield of today is largely due to Betha Kilby and her family. Almost everything that goes on in the village - Bertha is there. The Parish Council, PCC, Hall management committee and all that goes with the management and the lettings. The Bowls club, the parish magazine and the electoral role and many other organisations. She is a devout Christian and churchgoer. Every fete or event there she is with her stall of various items of interest for sale. Her early training in sewing and embroidery has given her a remarkable creative eye for design. Just looking at some of the wonderful church kneelers she worked some years ago bears this out. Any spare moment Bertha kits wonderful woollies for all ages, often adapting several patterns to get the one she wants and at great speed. If you want advice or to discuss village problems ask Bertha. Her nephew Donald Waterman who lives in Hertford has played the church organ for years and looks after the churchyard with enormous dedication and patience. He and his wife Elizabeth are of immeasurable value to Bramfield at all times and no couple could be more cheerful or willing to help.
Florence Kilby lived with her sister Bertha at Swann Cottage, Florrie is also a remarkable lady and I believe spent most of her working years teaching needlework at Simon Balle School. Between them they have looked after the church linen for years and probably embroidered much of it too, and cleaned the silver. She embroidered the very long and fine kneeler for the communion rail.
Their mother was a brilliant needlewoman too and I remember some of the exquisite smocked dresses she used to make. Mrs Kilby died in the mid 1970s (1975) at a very great age (91). She had been born Peppiatt her father had had a smallholding in Hertford, where the bus station is now next to Bircherley Green and he grazed cattle on the meads. She attended the Abel Smith school in Hertford. She was a very beautiful old lady as I remember her and her kindness itself to all in Bramfield is legendary. Bertha describer her years keeping the shop and post office. This she did with a form of dedication and hard work for 38 years. The shop was always fully stocked, and an Aladdin’s Cave of everything imaginable was for sale, shelves and walls bulging from floor to ceiling. She was a true friend to all who entered the shop.
For many years my father used to collect the cottage rents personally. Twice a year he visited the villages, in Bramfield the Kilbys always met in their front room for two or three hours for the tenants to come and pay their rents and discuss repairs. I used to go with him sometimes which was great fun as I was allowed to count the small change in wooden dishes, piles of pennies and ha’pennies in those days. I am sure one day many many more recollections can be added to these few by many other people but I have enormous affection and respect for Bertha Kilby so I am delighted to have persuaded her to speak to the Hertford Oral History Group
Additional note from Jean Riddell: Donald Waterman is married to Elizabeth Laker daughter of the Rev John Laker of Christ Church Bengeo. Rev Lakers father also John was the author of a famous local book “A history of Deal” , very well thought of in that locality