Interviewed by Jean Riddell (Purkis) (JR)
Date: 03/07/1996
Transcribed by Jean Riddell (Purkis)
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O1996.18
Interviewees: Mrs. Doris 'Dolly' Dudley (DD)
Date: 3rd July 1996
Venue: Glebe Road Bengeo
Interviewer: Jean Riddell (Purkis) (JR)
Transcriber: Jean Riddell (Purkis)
Typed by: Jean Riddell (Purkis)
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
Interview took place at Glebe Road Bengeo. Also present: Reg Purkis (RP)
JR: This is Wednesday 3rd July, 1996 in the evening and I'm at the home of Dolly Dudley, Mrs. Dolly Dudley, who's also known as Doris, and Doris lives at 38 Glebe Road, Bengeo. And I've come here tonight with Reg Purkis who's introduced me to Dolly and Dolly's going to tell us about her early life in the town centre. You were born in Oaker's Buildings?
DD: Oaker's Buildings, yes.
JR: Can you tell me the number?
DD: No!
JR: You don't know the number?
DD: No, I can't, no!
JR: Right, what did your family do? What did your dad do for a living?
DD: My dad worked for the Corporation and mum used to go our scrubbing different shops and
houses.
JR: And your maiden name was Morris, so you were Dolly Morris at the time, OK! What was it
like living there? Do you remember anything about it, or were you too young?
DD: I was too young.
JR: So when did you leave there?
DD: I think I left there when I was about, coming on for about two.
JR: Oh, so it's well before you really remember anything.
DD: And Mrs. Foster, she lived there at the time and she was my godmother, yes.
JR: Now, you came to know the Ansell family, didn't you? They were living there when you were
a baby, I suppose.
DD: Well, I slightly remember them, you know.
JR: So did your parents keep up with the friends from Oaker's Buildings when they left there?
DD: Only Mrs. Foster as far as I know.
JR: Yes, yes. So you went on when you were two and you were born in 1921, weren't you? So this was about 1923 when you left there. You went on to another part of the town.
DD: From there we went to the old Green. you know, Bircherley St. We had good memories down there. And then we had to come out of there and we went into a pub called The Angel. Do you know, where the Welcome is? Yes. We had to go in there because they had to come down, not come down, but there was something went wrong.
JR: In Bircherley St.?
DD: In Bircherley St, yeah.
JR: So did you find lodgings in The Angel then or…?
DD: No, my grandma, you know, she lived there and she gave us rooms.
JR: Ah, because we heard about The Angel from Jim Morris
DD: Yes, he's a relation of mine.
JR: Is he? So the Morris name.
DD: From Horns Mill
JR: Right! I see now. I didn't make the connection between the name at first! So Jim lived in The Angel at the same time as you?
DD: Yes, I think he did. The maiden name was, well, Jim Morris, er, that's right, yeah, They did move down Gas House lane, that way.
JR: So you were all living in The Angel at the same time?
DD: Yes.
JR: What was it like living in this, it was quite a big old place, wasn't it?
DD: It was very old, yes. We had good times there.
JR: What sort of living conditions were there there?
DD: Very poorly, yeah, very poorly. Oh yes, we had to bath in front of the fire and everything else, you know, like old tin baths.
JR: Yes, did you have water piped into the house then?
DD: Yes, we did, yes.
JR: But only cold water?
DD: Cold water, yes, we had to warm it up.
JR: How was it heated?
JR: What about loos, were there flush loos?
RP: you had to go down the garden for that.
JR: Yes! So the garden would have been
DD: Going into er, there was the pub, The Angel and then going down the garden you come down into the old Green what we used the call “The Green.”
JR: You know where Pearce's Bakery is now?
DD: Yes, Wrens
JR: Yes, it was Wren's then, so the Angel was a little bit up
DD: Further down. Then there was Godfrey's and then there was the milk shop. Then up the yard
there they used to shoe all the horses. Yes, we used to go up there when we was kids, watching them. Then we used to go round to Baileys and get the sweets out the boxes what he threw away, as we couldn't afford them.
JR: He left a few in the boxes for you?
DD: Oh, yes!
JR: What were they like, the Baileys, then?
DD: Very nice, very nice, yes.
JR: And they had a sweet shop. Where exactly was the, where would it be now?
DD: It was in, not now, no
JR: If it was there now
DD: Yes, em, it was right opposite Mills's, the second hand shop. Er, what's there now? Oh, it's just where the market would be, Saturday Market is, is it? No, they don't have the Saturday Market there now, of course not.
JR: You don't mean the covered market?
DD: No.
JR: Opposite Dyes.
DD: Yeah.
JR: There are a lot of little shops there now, and Halford's the cycle shop, somewhere there?
DD: You've got it, yeah, not as far as there though.
JR: No, but somewhere in that little parade of shops. Oh, and they had a sweet shop there.
DD: Yeah, Baileys.
JR: Were they quite an old family then?
DD: They were, yes.
JR: They'd been there quite a long time?
DD: They had. Mum used to go and scrub that out. And then across the road there was a place called Fieldings and that's where they had all the clothes and all that, selling. And I can remember playing in the road and I had a whip and top and I hit this top and it went through the window.
JR: Oh, dear.
DD: 'Course, I runned away, and they never did catch me!
JR: No oh, well
DD: There was a gang of us though!
JR: Did you know any of the Dye family?
DD: Yes, I knew Joan, Joan Dye and I knew
RP: Dye and all of 'em.
JR: They were still doing the chimneys when you were there, were they?
DD: Yes, yes, they were, and the coaches.
JR: Did they have a place in Bircherley Green to deposit their soot?
DD: Not that I knew of.
JR: We heard that there was a place, perhaps before your time.
DD: Yes, may have been.
JR: Can you tell me a bit about what it was like in The Green?
DD: Yes, we had a place there. Well, Salvation Army took it over but it was Dickson's then. And
we used to go there and have games and all that. And then the Salvation Army took it over and we used to go there when we was children. And we used to go and play and swim in the river where the barges come up.
JR: Did you?
DD: Yes, can remember quite well?
JR: Was it safe to swim?
DD: No, not really! I mean, I know I went in and I caught a tie round me neck and I can always
remember that and er, me brother Frank, he saved me life.
JR: Really?
DD: Yes.
JR: What actually happened? You jumped in, did you
DD: Jumped in and there was so much rubbish, bedsteads and everything else in it, you know, and I just caught meself round the neck and they said, "oh, she hasn't come up,” and
JR: So you stayed under the water.
DD: Yeah, for a little while, yes.
JR: Were you allowed to go in again?
DD: Not really, only if I went paddling.
JR: A lot of people learned to swim in the old swimming pool, didn't they?
DD: Oh, yes, in Hartham.
JR: Did you ever go there?
DD: Yes, yes I did. That was lovely.
JR: That was quite safe, wasn't it?
DD: Oh it was, that was right past where the other new is now. It's right the other end of it.
JR: Yes, I know roughly where it was. So would you say it was quite an exciting life living in The Green then?
DD: Oh yes, it was, happy, happy times. We never had much money, Mum never got much you know and we had good times. And er, I can always remember going to Thisuldo. That was by the side of the inside market on the right hand side, to get the stale cakes. And then I used to go down Bull Plain and I used to go and pick the specks up so we can have some fruit for tea, you know. I can remember Bob Cook, he used to have a stall there and he used to say, "If you don't go home I'll kick your bloody arse for you!"
(Laughter)
JR: Yes! Was he a greengrocer?
DD: Yes, he used to have a stall there down Bull Plain near Boots it was.
JR: Yes, yes. When you said "the specks", was that the fruit that wasn't very good?
DD: Yes, that's right. When they took them off the stall they just threw them underneath there and we used to go and get them.
JR: Do you remember all that then, Reg?
RP: Oh, I remember some of it
JR: Did you go much into The Green when you were
RP: No, I was afraid to go round there because
(Laughter)
JR: You'd better tell Dolly you were afraid!
RP: It was a bit of a rough quarter.
DD: It was and also there was a lodging house down there.
JR: Right, what was that like?
DD: Oh, there was all sorts but there was one man and his name was Pincher. They called him Pincher, but he was nice. He always used to have a, round his neck a, what would you say, with Oxford and Cambridge, all the little dolls, you know, all the song sheets, selling them up and down where Woolworth's is, Maidenhead Street.
JR: Selling song sheets?
DD: Yes, and everything on a tray.
JR: Oh, a general vendor was he. I know what you mean
DD: They called him Pincher.
JR: Pincher. Did he do a good trade?
DD: Oh, yes. And honestly, you could see your face in his shoes where he used to polish them. And when we were kids he used to ask us down there and gives us sweets, he did, yeah.
JR (to RP): Do you remember his then?
RP: Er, what's his name? Did they used to call him Pup Pincher?
DD: Pup Pincher, yeah, always had a tray, yeah, that's right.
JR: Pup Pincher, I wonder why they called him Pup Pincher?
DD: No idea. (to RP) do you ?
RP: No.
JR: Was he a local man then, or did he live in the lodging house?
DD: I don't think he was local, no, he just lodged down there. It was like a lodging house, you know, but he had a little place on the side, of his own.
RP: Did Dodson's run that?
DD: No, Dodson's run the one, where the fish and chip shop was. There was a yard between, Dodson's, the yard and Donoghues'. Yeah then they made that there into a lodging house, years to come.
JR: So who managed the lodging house, who was in charge of it?
DD: Oh, I don't know, no idea.
JR: What sort of rates did they charge there, do you know?
DD: No.
JR: No, do you know, Reg. I wonder if it was fairly cheap?
DD: I should think it would have been.
JR: So what did they have to do? Is it just like a bed for the night?
DD: Just a bed for the night and they could go down there in the day as well, oh, yes.
JR: So, did they all sleep in one room, or what happened?
DD: No, they had different rooms. Not everyone had different rooms, but they was scattered about, you know.
JR: Yes. It wasn't the dormitory kind of arrangement? No! So how many people could live in there then?
DD: I should imagine there was about 14.
JR: 14, was it just men or was it mixed?
DD: No, just men. And there was always fights there Saturday nights, not at the lodging house, in Railway Street. Boncey Ilott, remember Boncey lIott? And a man what we used to call 'Up the Navy.' I don't know what his name was but they used to say, "Here come 'Up the Navy'!"
JR: 'Up the Navy' was his name?
(Laughter)
JR: Why did they call him 'Up the Navy?' Was he always shouting "Up the Navy"?
DD: No, no I really, but we always used to say, "Here comes 'Up the Navy.' Yeah, Boncey lIott. Oh, my God there was always fights, weren't there?
JR: Yes did they have bouncers at the pubs as well, to…?
DD: No.
JR: Did the fights take place on the street?
DD: Oh, yes.
JR: And they came out of the pubs to fight?
DD: Er, yes they did.
JR: 'Cos we talked to Cliff North at one stage
DD: Oh, Cliff North!
JR: You know him?
DD: 'Course I do! He's a character!
JR: And he said that people were, I suppose, ushered out of the pubs in some way when they started a fight, to finish it outside.
DD: 'Cos Cliff lived down there you see, right opposite Donoghue's the fish shop in them little houses. Then also, the Salvation Army was there as well next door to him, Cliff
JR: So that was quite near the Friends' Meeting House, wasn't it?
DD: That's right, you got it.
JR: So the Salvation Army was up there?
DD: Yes, as well, yes it was.
JR: 'Cos afterwards it went to where the bus station is?
DD: No, it came from the bus station, then it went to Cliff's place, now it's at…
JR: Baker Street. So you as a child lived in the Angel and where did you go to school then?
DD: Er, I went to school to St. Andrew's. First there and then from there I went to Longmore's.
JR: Yes. Who do you remember at St. Andrew's particularly?
DD: Now, what was her name, er, not Keeble
JR: Any teachers you remember?
DD: I can at Longmore's.
JR: Do you remember Miss Turnbull?
DD: Turnbull, you got it, yes that's the name, Miss Turnbull. Then at Longmore's was Mr.
Honeyball, Miss Arkle, Mr. Reed.
JR: And Longmore's was a girls' school was it?
DD: Well, yes, it was then.
JR: And the Cowper School was the boys' school, equivalent school
DD: That's right, Mr. Stalley's, yes.
JR: So you must have gone to St. Andrew's School about 1926
DD: Must have been. I know it's when I was, in the early days.
JR: Yes. Who was in your class, can you remember that?
DD: What, in St. Andrew's? I can't remember them, but I can remember when I went to Longmore's.
JR: Who were your friends at Longmore, then?
DD: There was, er, Maisie Harrison, er, there was, er what's her name, Ruby, oh, there's
loads of them.
JR: You may remember them later.
DD: Some of them are still going, you know.
JR: Mostly married, so they'll be by different names.
DD: Different names, yes. Freda Brown, that's it, Freda. It all comes to me later on.
JR: Freda Brown. I'll put that one down. So when you went to St. Andrew's School, you had to
walk, did you, from…?
DD: From er, yes.
JR: What sort of things would you have seen on a typical day going to school? Would you have
seen delivery carts?
DD: I knew the shops along there. There was Wackett's and then there was a cigarette place, you
know, where they sell sweets and everything else. I can't remember what their name was. Then there was the fried fish shop along there and opposite was a pub, wasn't there, right opposite, you know.
JR: Opposite the school?
DD: Where the garage is, Waters' place. Then there was a pub a bit further along, wasn't there,
as well, going into Hertingfordbury?
JR: Yes, the Oak. The one opposite St. Andrew's School. I can't remember the name of that, but I have been told it, l'm not a native of Hertford so I'm having to learn it all, you see!
DD: Of course, yeah.
JR: I forget some things!
RP: Were you thinking of the Cold Bath?
DD: Cold Bath. No, it wasn't that one. The Cold Bath was just over the other side
RP: The Red Lion, on the left-hand side?
JR: Was it near Scales the butchers?
DD: Scales's, yes.
JR: Perhaps that was the Red Lion, then
DD: But that was on that side, wasn't it? That's on the same side as I'm talking about, where all
the shops are. No this was over the other side.
RP: The Bell?
DD: No.
JR: No, I think I know the one you mean, but I can't remember the name of it. Never mind don't
worry about it.
Transcribers Note: It was The Nelson
DD: 'Cos Jim Morris's sister Jean, she used to live in there. She did, so I know that.
JR: Lived in the pub?
DD: Yes.
JR: So did Jim go to that school as well?
DD: Jim?
JR: To St. Andrew's?
DD: No, don't think he did, not Jim, no.
JR: He's older than you, isn't he?
DD: Oh, yes!
JR: A lot older?
DD: Yes he is older than me. He's still knocking around.
JR: Yes, I know he is. In fact he's done a lot of tapes for the Oral History.
DD: Has he really?
JR: And he featured quite largely in an exhibition at the Museum recently.
DD: Did he?
JR: Yes, he actually made a little hand cart for us like he had when he was a boy
DD: Well, I never!
JR: He used to go round doing errands with it. You may remember
DD: Yes, yes, well I never!
JR: Yes, but he had his operation on his knee.
DD: Has he had it done?
JR: Yes.
DD: Ah! I remember last time I see him he said he was waiting to go in. Oh, good. He always used to be pushing his bike when he went shopping.
JR: That's right, yes. Now along St. Andrew St. you said you remember the lady who used to
wear cloth on her feet.
DD: Oh yes, yes. I do remember and do you know what, she was a lady what would never ever pick a sweet up with her fingers. She always had tweezers to put them on the scales. She did, yes. And then at the finish she moved from there, went into Villiers St. and she used to keep chickens in her house!
JR: Did she!
DD: Yes, she did, yeah. We used to call her 'Flannel feet.' Didn't never know her name!
JR: We've been told her name's Miss Hoad and we're pretty sure it is Miss Hoad. So many people have said it's Miss Hoad. But did she, she worked in the sweet shop and the sweet shop was called Palmer's, wasn't it?
DD: Palmer's! I think it was, yes, it was.
JR: So, was she an employee of Palmer's then?
DD: No, that was her own place.
JR: She owned the shop.
DD: Yes
Here's my son.
JR: Hello! Yes, OK. So she owned the shop
DD: Yes, she did. We used to go in there to get our sweets.
JR: Was she nice to talk to?
DD: Yes, she was.
JR: She liked children, did she?
DD: Yes, she did.
JR: Did she have any decided views on anything because we think she might have been…?
DD: I tell you what she used to do. She always used to put adverts in her window for a man.
JR: Yes, I've heard
DD: Have you heard it? I do remember that. I remember reading the adverts when we was kids.
JR: What kind of thing did she actually say? "
DD: 'Wanted - a man' And she'd pay him! Yes, yes, really
JR: What, to…?
DD: To sleep with
(Laughter)
JR: Did the advert actually say that?
(Laughter)
DD: I don't think she got anybody!
JR: No, no. Well maybe it was a bit too obvious! But what I was trying to say before, was, I don't think she approved of animals being killed, did she? That's why she wouldn't wear leather shoes, I think.
DD: Oh, is that what it was? I'm not sure about that, no. Well, it's possible because she never did wear shoes, always a flannel round her feet.
JR: Did she have any relatives?
DD: No, not that I know of.
JR: So she was on her own
DD: Yes, yes. Then she moved to Villiers St. and that's alI know. I heard she'd died, you know.
JR: Yes.
DD: 'Cos I know she used to keep chickens in the house.
JR: So, she was a bit, different
DD: Oh she was, yes.
JR: What about this other chap that we spoke about earlier, Chitty Wren?
DD: (laughing) Oh, yes, he used to make the hot cross buns and everything!
JR: Oh, are you talking about Josiah Wren now?
RP: Yes.
JR: Right. There are two of these people. There's Chitty Wren who lived in Parliament Square
who played an acc
RP: Concertina!
JR: Concertina and the other one was the
DD: baker.
JR: Of Wren's bakery.
DD: On the corner
JR: Yes, OK. Do you remember much about the one that played the concertina?
DD: No. I remember the Salvation Army being around, you know, Hertford. You know where the Shire Hall is. On Sundays they used to parade right round, you know and start singing all, all that.
JR: What was life like as a child then, living in? You said you liked it very much.
DD: it was nice, but we was very hard up.
JR: So what kind of economies did you have to make then?
DD: What do you mean?
JR: Well, I mean. you were hard up, so what did you go without?
DD: Oh well we used, I'll tell you what, I used to go and get some pieces of bacon, three penn'orth of pieces and I used to go to Bates's for that and my mum used to make us a bacon and onion pudding, you know. And then we used to get stale bread and we used to have bread puddings, you know. We never went without, mind you, but they was hard times, really hard times.
JR: Yes, but you had to go looking for scraps, did you, in a way
DD: We did, yes, yes.
JR: The fruit that was
DD: Oh yes, I've often gone under the thing and got the scraps, yes.
JR: Did you find that the shopkeepers were quite kind if you didn't have a lot of money?
DD: Yes, I did, yes, 'cos we had good shops in Maidenhead, didn't we (to RP), the International
and Walker’s Stores, Pearke's. We never had a Woolworth's then. That was a pub (The Maidenhead)
JR: I suppose when you were about ten, the Depression was starting then, wasn't it? Reg, do
you think, the early thirties?
PR: Yes.
JR: It was getting a bit tough then, wasn't it, so that everyone who was a bit hard up was even
'harder up'.
DD: Yes, they were, yes. I mean we could go and get fish and chips for 3d, 2d and a penn'orth and we always used to say, “Do us a few cracklings,” to make it up, you know, oh yes.
JR: What were they? They were just bits of batter, were they?
DD: No, that was a nice piece of fish we used to get
JR: Crackling was the
DD: Crackling was just the crackling off the fish and it just went to the top of oil and it was just
RP: Batter.
JR: Right, so you made up the weight of it with that.
There were quite a number of fish shops, weren't there in
DD: There was.
JR: So which one did you normally go to?
DD: We often went to Tovell's
JR: That was your favourite?
DD: Yes.
JR: There was another lady we interviewed, called Ruby Henry.
DD: Oh, yes, Ruby, yes.
JR: Do you remember, she had a shop there, or her father did. Her name was Walls at the time, I think.
DD: yeah, did her people used to keep a pub years ago, along the Ware Road?
JR: I don't know.
DD: It wasn't Mollie, was it?
JR: No, they had a fish shop, in fact they had two in Railway Street. But they might have been slightly before your time. I'm trying to work out the dates, here.
DD: What was her name?
JR: Walls, Ruby Walls.
DD: I've heard my husband used to talk about the Walls.
JR: Yes, she married very early, about 17 and became Ruby Henry. Oh, right. What else went on? What did you do to play, for instance?
DD: All we used to do was to get the skipping rope, you know, off the orange boxes and skip with that. Then we played whip and top and then we used to play Hopscotch, draw the, with a piece of chalk on the ground, you know, all all this
RP: Now, if I can butt in, do you remember a Miss Walls that used to look after the old Quaker
House?
DD: Yes, yes, in Railway Street? Yes, I do. yes, yes.
JR: Ah, tell us about her, did she live up in the top bit?
RP: Caretaker. Now, I know the girl that she brought up.
DD: What was her name then?
RP: I don't think her name was Walls, but she's still alive. I wonder whether we might get, contact her. I know where she lives.
JR: Oh, well, we'll have to arrange that one.
(Laughter)
JR: It's another one for our list!
RP: Because she actually lived there and she was bridesmaid, I was best man, at my brother's wedding, so she is, must be nearly my age. She was 16. I forget, or was I 16?
End of Side A
Side B
JR: This is Jean again and I have to apologise to the listener. I made a mistake. Of course it was Ruby Watts, not Ruby Walls. There is a Ruby Walls as well, but it's not this lady and Reg has
just reminded me that Watts did have a wet fish shop. Now, where was it again, Reg?
RP: Go down Railway Street towards the station. It was on the righthand side almost to the entrance of Bircherley Street.
DD: And was it right opposite where the old maltings used to be?
RP: Yes.
DD: Yes, I do know Watts, yes.
JR: That's put that in context a bit. And what did Mr. Watts used to do? Stand outside the shop.
RP: You'd see him standing there with winkles and you'd see him eating the winkles and throwing the empty shells back amongst those he'd got to sell. And they were sold in a pint pot, weren't they?
DD: That's right.
JR: So he ate some of them and threw the empty shells in and sold them as, oh. Right. Thankyou
(Lots of laughter from all)
DD: Oh dear, that's how it used to be, didn't it!
JR: So some of the shopkeepers along there were real characters, weren't they?
DD: They were, yes. Then we had Copping's that's where llott's is now.
JR: 'Cos Copping's is still around. Aren't they at Stanstead Abbotts?
DD: Are they? Well that used to be from the Premier, the old Premier, do you remember (to R)
RP: But Copping's shop at one time was the Salvation Army Hall.
JR: Yes, I realise that, yes, yes. And behind that was the Regent Cinema. Did you ever go there?
DD: Yes, yes.
JR: And what did you think of that?
DD: Yes, it was very nice and they used to have stage turns there. And I've been on the stage bathing in the sunshine. Yes, I used to dress up in me bathers and have this umbrella and (sings) "Bathing in the sunshine, that's my lady's style ...." I still know that song!
JR: That's good, so how old were you when you did that?
DD: I was about eight, yes. I got picked for it and Mum used to scrub it all out. And there was one bloke what used to come, his name was Cody and he used to put you to sleep. And I can always remember my mum used to say, ''I'm not going in there while he's in there to scrub it out. Case he puts me to sleep!"
JR: Yes, was he a hypnotist?
RP: It was commonly known as the 'fleapit'
JR: Did all this acting and everything go on between the film performances?
DD: No, not then.
RP: It was a theatre of variety.
DD: Yes, and Mr. Geeves is still alive now
JR: Yes, we've got him on tape as well!
DD: Have you really? Yes, I remember him and his wife, used to be in the box taking the money as you go through.
JR: In fact at the recent exhibition at the Museum we had a picture of her in her usherette uniform, sitting on a staircase outside. I'm not sure if it was a fire escape or something, but she looked really nice.
DD: They live up here, don't they?
JR: Yes.
DD: They used to live down here, but they moved up. Yes, I can remember that quite plainly.
JR: This chap we were talking about earlier on, Pecker Farrow. He used to do some sound effects at one of these cinemas. I'm not sure if it was the Regent, or not. I think it was, actually
RP: He also used to play the drum in the Territorial Band when 1 was, he was a kind of relief bloke. If you'd got a march coming on and you couldn't get a drummer, you'd call on Pecker.
JR: And was he the chap that used to be in the Whit Monday procession in a cage with animals?
DD: Yes, yes, Pecker Farrow
JR: What animals were there in the cage?
RP: Monkeys.
JR: Oh, right, nothing too
DD: Yeah, it used to be a lovely parade, didn't it?
RP: When we get together, well, we've had little chats before, haven't we?
DD: We have, yes.
RP: And one more or less enlightens the other, 'till something comes to mind.
JR: So, how did you two get to know each other then?
RP: Well, only through a relative of yours.
DD: Was that Frank?
RP: No, you are distantly related to Betty and Michael?
DD: Oh, Betty and Michael, yes.
RP: It's only through outings with Glaxos, becoming friendly with Michael and Betty that I got to
know Dolly.
JR: So you didn't know each other when you were children.
RP: No, but I did know her husband whose photograph is over there, because he was, when I was an officer in the Boys' Brigade, he was one of the lads.
DD: With the Keebles, was it?
RP: With the Keebles, yes.
JR: Keeble was quite a nice man, wasn't he?
RP: A very good family. They did a wonderful job at the Baptist Church, in having the Boys' Life
Brigade, because it was an interest for the kiddies. Furthermore they had holidays with camping which they could never have had a chance for a holiday in those days, with their parents.
JR: Are we talking about Len Keeble?
RP: I'm talking about his father who started it. There was Len Keeble, Percy Keeble, Edgar
Keeble. They were all officers in the Boys' Brigade.
JR: So the father, what was the father called?
RP: J. F. Keeble, James, surely.
JR: And he had lots of sons did he?
RP: Yes, and two daughters.
JR: Len, Percy, Edgar.
RP: Edgar became a parson. He died. Oh,wait a minute, no, there was four, surely yes, there was four sons and two daughters.
JR: And Len Keeble was
RP: Became mayor. His father was mayor prior to that.
JR: And Mrs. Keeble who now lives up in, near the church, is the second wife of Len Keeble, is that right?
RP: Oh, that would be, Len Keeble's second wife. I believe she was a sister at the hospital. He was in there having an operation, he'd lost his wife and I think that's how they met up.
JR: Yes, I just wanted to get it worked out, 'cos I know her vaguely and I knew she was his second wife but it was Len. Right. So they had a shop, didn't they, the Keebles?
DD: Yes, in St. Andrew St.
RP: Well, it wasn't a shop, it was a, they lived there and it was a store for they because they were tally
DD: Tallymen.
RP: Ah, they went round, then. I didn't realise that. So, did they deliver out into the villages?
????: Oh they did, they went for miles.
DD: And you could go there and pick what you wanted, couldn't you?
RP: Yes, or say what you wanted and they'd take your measurements and
JR: Was it clothes then, mostly?
RP: Clothes mainly, I think.
JR: And he had a fire there at one time, didn't he?
JR: I don't remember that.
JR: Bob Harding certainly told us about it. I think there was somebody else as well.
DD: We used to have a toyshop in, past Woolworth's, didn't we. You know, where Pratt's used to be.
RP: Pratt's? That was a toyshop.
DD: Yes, I can remember my mum getting my first doll there.
JR: That was on the corner, wasn't it, Pratt's.
DD: Yes, where the betting shop was, now it’s a building
RP: Do you remember the triangle of shops that were there before the Memorial?
DD: Oh yes, yes, yes.
RP: And they pulled those down to put the Memorial there but there was one, the hairdresser, hung on there, right 'til the bitter end, 'cos they hadn't built his other shop. I can't think of his name, high class hairdresser. They were round by Maison Cartons on that corner.
JR: Can you tell me a bit more about The Green, 'cos that's actually gone. What was it like down there? Were the houses pretty small?
DD: There was quite a lot down there.
JR: Close together.
DD: Yes, Mrs. Bulley and, George Bulley's mum, and oh and then there was a woman, Larty Cole, do you remember Larty?
RP: No.
DD: We used to call her Larley Cole.
JR: Larly Cole. What did she do?
DD: Well, she just used to push the barrow and chop up wood and sell it. She used to go down to Jewson's and get it and chop it up and do it in bundles and sell it.
JR: For firewood?
DD: Yes. Larty, she was wonderful woman.
JR: There was another woman who was a bit later on than that, called Maudie Mead.
DD: & RP: Maudie Mead! Yes!
JR: She did the same thing?
DD: She did the same thing, Maudie.
RP: She lived in the gaol, didn't she?
JR: They weren't related, or they didn't have a business?
DD: No relations, no, I shouldn't think so.
JR: Was that quite a common thing to do then for women, taking firewood around?
DD: Yes, yes, sell it.
JR: So this Larty Cole lived actually in The Green?
DD: Yes, and Mrs. Bulley, and Mrs. Chambers, Maudie Adams and there was Bob Cook what used to keep the vegetables and fruit, you know, when he had the barrow. He lived on The Green.
JR: When they had these things like barrows, where did they put them all because there were no
"
DD: Places, was there. No
RP: Yards, yards
DD: There was the Duncombe Yard
RP: The Duncombe Yard used to store all the stalls from the Covered Market.
DD: Then we used to have an old organ up Railway Street.
RP: Barrel organ.
DD: Barrel organ with the monkey on the top, on his shoulder. Who was he, always used to come?
JR: Was he from Hertford as well?
RP: I don't know, because what they used to do, they used to hire them out, so much a day.
DD: Yeah, I know he just come every week, you know, Fridays and Saturdays, yes.
JR: And that would be pushed down the road, the barrel organ, on a trolley or something?
DD: No, it was, well what would you say (to RP)
RP: Lie on the top of a coster barrow
JR: A barrow, yes, I always think barrel organs are so jolly.
DD: They are!
JR: I love them!
DD: I do, I think they're lovely.
JR: When you hear them coming in the distance and they are walking with the barrow and turning
DD: Never see them now.
RP: Do you remember Ivy Ramsey's fish shop, in St. Andrew St, wet fish just by where Bland's is today(!) (Hertford Graphics)
DD: Yeah, know where Bland's no, don't remember that, no.
JR: Maybe a fish shop wasn't of great interest to you as a child because if you were walking along St. Andrew St. to school, you maybe wouldn't notice a fish shop as much as a sweet shop.
DD: There was a sweet shop, yes!
(Laughter)
used to get a sweet for a farthing, ha'penny, wasn't it, or penn'orth of sweets.
JR: Did you ever go back to Oakers Buildings?
DD: I used to go down there but I can't remember their names.
JR: What was it like down there?
DD: It was just houses, you know and got all their washing all hanging out in the front from one
side to the other.
JR: And did it have a sort of gully down the middle where the water, like a drain. a central drain? .
DD: No, not as I know of.
JR: But you got to it under the archway?
DD: That's right.
JR: Do you remember Miss Oaker, or any Oaker people?
DD: Miss Oaker, no.
JR: It doesn't matter. Some people say they do remember a very old lady. In fact we found out there was a very old one that died in 1921 when you were born, but she did have a successor, a niece who was also call Miss Oaker. So people must be remembering the second one rather than the first one. Who was your doctor? Do you remember?
DD: It wouldn't have been Vawser, would it? Who was there before Vawser?
JR: It doesn't matter. I was just going to say, do you remember any visits from a doctor to your house? I haven't yet asked you about your own family. How many children your mother had.
DD: Mum, she had, there was Frank and Ivy, then come me, then I lost a sister, Uly, then there was Georgie, Charlie, Joyce and June.
JR: Quite a lot, then.
RP: How many do you make it?
JR: So that's without the one that's been lost, that's I, 2, 3,4,5,6, and one lost, 7.
DD: Seven, yes.
JR: That's quite a lot, and you were the third one?
DD: Frank, Ivy, then me, yes.
JR: I just wondered if you remember anything about the birth of the others? Or anybody being ill, or having to send for the doctor?
DD: No, the only one I can think of being ill is my sister what died.
JR: What happened there then?
DD: She died with, now what did she die of, pneumonia.
JR: So, how old was she?
DD: She was about five.
JR: What happened there then?
DD: I don't know, she just caught this, whatever it was and she just died. We buried her up the churchyard, up there. And she always used to play underneath an umbrella tree and we had her grave put there, under an umbrella tree, one of them, you know, what comes right down.
JR: Yes, oh that was sad, 'cos normally it's things like TB that were rife.
DD: It was then, wasn't it, TB?
JR: So apart from that, which was bad enough, I know, everybody else was fairly healthy?
DD: Yes, they were, yes. Frank used to get his piano accordion and play in the pubs, the Diamond, everywhere, you know, the Red Lion, yeah he was a character of the town, me brother.
JR: That was Frank Morris.
DD: Frank Bradshaw. That was my mum's second husband, Morris was, you see.
JR: Oh, I see.
DD: Yes, and there was Ivy and Frank. They was a Bradshaw, you see.
JR: I'm sorry, I didn't realise that, so the first two were Bradshaws.
DD: Jim knows them.
JR: Were you the first one?
DD: Yes.
JR: Oh, that's got that worked out. In fact, it would be quite nice, wouldn't it, for you and Jim to
get together on a tape because then you could just talk to each other.
DD: Yes, we could, couldn't we, yes. 'Cos Jim knows me well.
JR: Yes. I just didn't realise he was any relation. Oh, that's good. Now. Your father worked quite long hours, didn't he. What time did he have to get up?
DD: Well, I think he used to get up about five in the morning. He used to drive the horse and cart
then, you see, for the council, you know.
JR: What did he actually do, after that when he got to work?
DD: Well he was, what was he, he used to go and cut hedges and sweep the roads, everything
JR: General maintenance man. Did they call that any particular name? Was he called a road mender? Did he do any mending of the roads?
DD: No, no mending. ~
RP: No, that came under roadways, just sweeping and general hedging and
JR: What was his area?
DD: Er, well, he used to go down to Hartham a lot, you know, where the common is, and different
places.
JR: But, just round the town?
DD: Yes, it was.
JR: Did he have somebody with him? Another employee?
DD: No, don't think he did. On his own, he was.
JR: So, he was pretty well known, wasn't he?
DD: Oh, yes, my dad was.
JR: What was his first name?
DD: George.
JR: George Morris.
DD: Yeah, Jim knows him.
JR: So what about your mother's first husband, did he die?
DD: He died, yes.
JR: So, how did he die?
DD: I think it was in the war.
JR: And your mum worked hard cleaning. So did you have to do quite a lot of household chores?
DD: Yes, we did, we worked hard for mum.
JR: And being a girl, you probably had to do quite a lot.
DD: Yes, I did, yes, black leading the fireplace, and hearthstone the step outside.
RP: Do you remember there used to be a chap come round selling chalk?
DD: Chalk, yes.
RP: Chalk for hearths
DD: And doing your step outside.
RP: Yes, the hearths were all white and the steps were white.
JR: Yes, there's one of our people called Dick Darton.
DD: Yes, Dartons, yes.
JR: He used to wait 'till this chap went into somebody's house to sell them some chalk and then
lead the horse down the road and leave it down there, so the chap came out to get in his cart
and it wouldn't be there. It would be down the road and of course the boys would run off.
DD: Yeah
(Laughter)
I know the Dartons, Peggy and all of them.
RP: Peggy's the blind one.
JR: There's another one who's blind as well.
DD: Lives up Sele Road or Hertingfordbury.
RP: Yes, I often see him walking along.
DD: Yes, with his wife, marvellous, really.
JR: Dick lives in Bentley Road now.
DD: Does he, Dick?
JR: And they had lived, mm, Hattams Yard or one of those yards down there, I'm not sure now.
DD: I used to work for McMullen's, I did.
JR: You did?
DD: Yeah! Washing the bottles, the lemonade bottles. Yeah I worked hard down there.
RP: You know old May Tomlin, then
DD: Oh, yeah, and all loads of them, yeah and old Bill, poor old Bill, what was his name, he come from Port Vale
RP: Yeah, old Bill Bull.
DD: Bull, Bill Bull, yeah. He died didn't he? He was a character wasn't he?
RP: He was, used to drive the horses, didn't he?
JR: I think we've got a picture of him. So you left the Longmore School, then at 14 or so?
DD: Yes, I did.
JR: Did you go to McMullen's straight away?
DD: No, I went to Simson and Pimm. And then I went to Addis's and then I went to McMullen's. C
JR: Yes. Was it a better job at McMullen's?
DD: Yes, I did like it.
JR: What did you do at Simson and Pimm?
DD: I worked with a man named Frank and he taught me how to print, you know. Put it in then pull it out, the plate, one of the old-fashioned type. Goes up and down like that, you know
(Laughter)
JR: And at Addis's.
RP: You fed the machine at one end and took them out of the other!
DD: That's right! And at Addis's I used to get the bristles, you know and I used to comb them
and pick the nits out, what they called the nits.
JR: Gosh! Because there are some pictures we've got of people doing that, but it was long before your time.
DD: Yes, picking the nits
JR: So they were still doing that in the late thirties, say 1936 or 7, just before the war, was it?
DD: Oh, yes.
RP: Did you ever know any of the finishers there, 'cos it was done by hand, wasn't it?
DD: Oh, yeah. No I didn't know any of them.
RP: I didn't know if you knew Pateman that used to be there
DD: What, from St. Andrew St?
RP: No.
JR: Your family, Pateman?
RP: That could have been my brother-in-law.
JR: He did that then, finished the handles, did he?
RP: Yes, and did you see at the Museum how much they got paid?
JR: No I didn't.
RP: Per gross.
JR: Tell me.
RP: I think I'm right in saying
JR: Gross, 144
RP: Equivalent to 65p today.
JR: Per gross! How long did it take them to do a gross then?
RP: I don't know, but you were good if you walked out there with £3 per week. So, Mrs. Pateman can tell you more about this, yes, was most interested in the display, her husband having worked there.
JR: He was the one you've just spoken about.
RP: Yes, he was actually carving the bone out into the shape.
JR: What kind of bone did they use?
RP: I couldn't tell you. Must have been fairly big animals.
JR: Cattle bones, were they? Anyway, you left there after all this nit picking and then you went
to McMullen's. And you thought that was better and better money.
DD: It was, yes, had to stack crates up and all.
JR: You needed some big muscles?
DD: Oh,yes!
JR: Which was the better firm for social events and outings?
DD: Coach outings, yeah, to Southend or catch a train. Used to be only 1/3d return to London and back.
JR: You often see photographs of them going somewhere and it's often McMullens outing.
When you were at Addis? Did you meet Mrs. Addis?
DD: Oh, yes, Mr. Addis, not Bert, that's the son.
JR: Mr. Addis, what was he like?
DD: Oh, well
JR: Strict?
DD: I think they all were, and Mrs. Addis.
RP: Slave drivers! Everything was piece work.
JR: Yes, had to work very hard. What were the hours like at McMullen's? Shift work?
DD: No, I went at 8 o'clock and finished about 5.
JR: Oh, so, a fairly normal day. Where did you meet your husband?
DD: I did know him years ago, and then my brother got to know him by going into the Reindeer pub on Port Hill. We lived on there, Port Hill, by the way. And then I used to work at the County Pictures and I can always remember him coming in to see a film.
(The tape ran out here, but Dolly remembered this as a particularly significant meeting, leading
to romance and eventually their marriage.)