Interviewed by Jean Riddell Purkis (JR) and Mary Ollis (MO)
Date: 13/04/1996
Transcribed by Jean Riddell (Purkis)
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O1996.11
Interviewee: Mr Sydney Bunyan (SB)
Date: April 13th1996
Venue: 14, Highfield Road, Hertford
Interviewer: Jean Riddell Purkis (JR) and Mary Ollis (MO)
Transcriber: Jean Riddell Purkis
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
Interviewed at 14, Highfield Road, Hertford.
JR: This is Jean Riddell speaking from 14, Highfield Road, Hertford, home of Marv Ollis. It's April 13th 1996 and Mary has three guests for tea, besides myself, Joy and Phillip Bunyan and father Sydney who is now ninety two, born in Hertford and lived here until 1925. Can you tell us first of all, Syd, where you were born, which street?
SB: I was born in 20 Russell Street in 1904, March and went to the Infants' School at Christ Church when I was three years old, with my sister. Hilda.
JR: Was Hilda older than you?
SB: Yes! Two years older. She was the eldest.
JR: And your other brother was John. He was younger?
SB: He was two years younger. Then I'd got another sister, Dorie who was two years younger than John, the baby. She died quite young.
MO: And what was your father? He was indentured at McMullen's was he, your father. What did he do? What was his work?
SB: Well, they registered him as a coach painter but what they used to do in those days. I don't know whether you remember it but the coaches were painted and then they were lined out with pretty patterns and one thing and another. And that was what he used to do. These pencils as they called them, but they was paint like the other in a different colour and the brewer's dray was quite an ornamental affair. And I can remember quite well when we used to have the fêtes at Hertford, these brewers' drays were washed and cleaned all up and children used to stand in them and they used to take them down to the fêtes. And they also used to use them for taking us out to a treat at Goldings in these brewers' drays. They were used quite a bit. And I can remember going to Otto Belt's at Tewin Water and seeing the stables there. And the stables there were better than the houses we lived in. They were lovely stables, with rugs and washable wails and all that kind of thing. I can remember that as well as anything.
But we had outings from school, weekday school, and we also had them from Sunday School.
MO: Which church did you go to? Was it Christ Church?
SB: Christ Church, yes, and of course now that's all pulled down and gone. Percy Robson was the vicar at the time I was really young, and he was a lovely old parson. And he used to look after us kids. And you know, they used to come in and out of the school quite a lot and have a little chat to everybody. And Miss Porter used to be the mistress there and then there was a Miss Harrison. There was two rooms, that's all. And then from there, you went to whatever school you wanted to when you was seven. So, I went to Bengeo and I think me cousins, they went to Cowper School, that's the Botsford boys.
Then of course Bengeo School now is gone. That's all pulled down. Mr. Hyde was the headmaster. And the teacher at Class 1 at Bengeo was a real old, rough 'un, Tilly Williams, her name was. She was a jolly good teacher, but she was very strict. And I can remember her coming round the back of you and digging you with a pointer and that kind of thing. And you had to do a lot of writing connected with the Church. You had to learn the Lord's Prayer, the Creeds and be able to write 'em all down from memory.
MO: Did you write on slates, or?
SB: No, no we didn't use slates in my time. There were slates there that had been used, but we never used slates. Me father told me they used slates in his time but never in mine. But it was…
MO: Did he go to that school too, your father?
SB: My father went to Bengeo School, yes, 'cos it was there quite a number of years. Mr. Hyde was headmaster and he was a lovely man, really, and his wife. She used to come and help in teaching the school if anybody went sick. If one of the teachers went sick she'd come in. I remember some of the classes. There was a Mr. Osborne. I can remember him quite well. He used to live in Duncombe Road. He was one of the teachers then. And Mr. Young. And then, of course, the girls' school was the side of it where me sister went. And the headmistress then was Mrs. Truss.
MO: Dolly Truss?
SB: I don't remember whether it was Dolly Truss. I remember Truss. Then of course there was the infants' school which come in Trinity Road. Miss Buckle was the, I think she was the only one as far as I can remember.
JR: Did your father live in Russell Street when he was a boy?
SB: No, no, he lived on Old Cross down the side of the library somewhere. Because they used to have cows and I know he used to tell me he used to take them down to Hartham and the King's Mead when they went dry. He'd take 'em to King's Mead, what they used to call dry meads or something there. So they used to take 'em down and leave 'em there. But, of course, the others they had to bring back. Every time they wanted milking, they'd got to bring 'em.
JR: Right, down to the dairy again. yeah. Um. I'm going to start on the list of things now. that you said you'd like to talk about. The first one on the list is Pemberton Billing. Now can you tell us about him?
SB: Now. It was during the 1914-18war, as near as I can tell you. It would be somewhere about 1915 when we was having the air raids on Hertford and we had a bad one in October 19
JR: 15, wasn't it?
SB: 1915, yeah. And, er, the people were very upset over it because nothing happened. They just come over and dropped the bombs and just went off and you never heard guns or anything. And then this Pemberton Billing turned up and he was a bit of a, I don't know what you call them, fly by night. And he used to drive. He was a real character. As kids we used to love him. He used to drive a big sports car in the shape of a torpedo and he used to jump in the top of it. And he put up and, of course, Hertford was a real Conservative town and he was - Independent he stood as. And he got in romping with a big majority because he said, you know, he'd stop the bombing. But it was peculiar because it wasn't so long afterwards that we had the first Zeppelin brought down and you could see it from Hertford. It think it was Cuffley or Potters Bar.
JR: Cuffley yes.
SB: And you couldn't see the actual thing but you could see the flames where it was brought down.
JR: This wasn't, the Zeppelin you're talking about that bombed the town here. That wasn't the same Zeppelin that was shot down, was it?
SB: No, no.
JR: There were a lot of them, were there?
SB: Oh, yes, that was a long time after that.
JR: But were there lots of these Zeppelins coming over then, all the time.
SB: Oh, yes, we had 'em over all the time. But we didn't get the bombs all the time.
JR: Yes, I know that, but you could see them in the sky quite often, could you?
SB: Well, I don't remember ever seeing one as a child. You could hear them.
JR: Hear them? Only one of our interviewees said she actually saw the men in the cockpit, it was so low.
SB: Well. I shouldn't have thought so. It was always night time, so it was dark to start with, you see. The only way you'd pick them up was if a search light picked them up.
JR: Yes, yes, I see.
SB: And then I remember 'im, Pemberton Billing, 'cos he was a real go ahead merchant. He wanted to get on the Hertfordshire County Council and at that time William Graveson was the Chairman of the Hertfordshire County Council. Pemberton Billing opposed him at the election and we had a right do at the shop, I can remember! Any rate that was the only time I knew poor old Pemberton got beaten. William Graveson got in. And then after the war I can remember, while he was still in Parliament, I don't know, he built, or had built or had built some bungalows in Farquhar Street! Don't know if you can remember those.
JR: Yes, they're still there.
SB: And I can remember as a child going up there and looking at these bungalows that he'd built. And the idea of it was the bungalow would be in the centre of the bungalow and it'd open out into the other rooms.
JR: The fireplace?
SB: Yes, so all you'd got to do was, you'd got one fire and it served two or three rooms. And that was one of the ideas he had. But there was several ideas but I mean I can't remember what they were. But they was quite nice and as far as I know they're still occupied. I remember, what was his name, Dan. His surname was…
MO: Dan Dye?
SB: He married Miriam Andrews, Frank Dan. He lived in one or 'em at one time
JR: When this activity with Pemberton Billings was going on, were you actually working at Graveson's by then or were you still at school?
SB: Oh, no, I think I was at school.
MO: I remember when Pemberton Billing put up for Parliament and he was defeated by Sueter, I think. Because there was a record, I mean there was a thing called 'The Defence Of the Realm Act' and Pemberton Billing used to play this record, which was 'We Won't be Ruled by DORA' - 'Defence Of the Realm Act' and we had a copy of it on our gramophone at home and we used to strut about singing it because my mother's name was Dora.
SB: Yes. I don't know what happened to him. All of a sudden he seemed to disappear.
JR: Yes. So, when you went to work at Graveson's, you were actually working in the boot and shoe department?
SB: Yeah, all the time, yeah. I was in the boot and shoe trade all me life.
JR: It was fairly quiet, was it, the trade there?
SB: Not then!
JR: Not, no
SB: No; 'cos it was in the war time, you see, and people, I mean Hertford was a, quite a busy town because we got the cattle market and things like that. And once the cattle market went the trade went with it in Hertford to some degree because we used to have all the farmers, used to be Pearmans and Sapsfords and what have you. And they used to come in on a Saturday with one of these, well I saw one in the museum, one of these high little carts with a pony and they used to put up at the Salisbury Tap 'cos I can remember going up there with parcels of shoes and took 'em to the Salisbury Tap and put 'em in their trap (laughs)
MO: Do you remember Tom Graves at the Salisbury Tap? Tom Graves?
SB: Graves? Well I don't say I remember him. I knew of him, and I used to, because the Salisbury like was at the front and you went up the side and round the back and they got the stables round there at that time you see.
JR: Now, What about George Fleckney and the faggot oven?
SB: Well, George Fleckney was, when I was a boy and lived in Russell Street, he used to come round with the bread and he used to push it with a hand truck. And he used to come round and knock and he used to sing, “I'll raise an onion on your Spanish onion if I catch you bending tonight' But he was a real comedian. But his old bakehouse, as I say they used to put the faggots in; fire 'em in the actual oven and then used to rake 'em out and put the bread in afterwards.
JR: Where was the bakery then?
SB: Along the Vale somewhere. Well, I don't know whether Skinner's are still there, are they along the Vale.
JR: No.
MO: They've gone. It was called Briden's wasn't it?
JR: Briden's, yes, I know where you mean now.
SB: Yeah. But it wasn't Briden's shop it was next door to there what used to be Rushes once upon a time and a general store had it after it was a bakery. But I mean it was only a bakery I should say very likely when the war started until it finished, almost as it were, you know, 1914 or 1916 it had finished.
Then there was Tyson's which was on the Old Cross. That was another bakers. There was quite a lot of bakers about at that time, 'cos they showed me one in the shop in St. Andrew Street, I think it was, Hattam's. And of course that was a baker's shop and cakes and that kind of thing. I don't think they baked bread but they sold bread.
JR: It was a cake shop, I think, wasn't it?
MO: Did you have any relations living in St. Andrew Street?
SB: In St. Andrew Street, yes, Mrs.Botsford kept the sweet shop next to Currell's. Currell's was the greengrocer, Botsford's and then there was Ramsey, the fish shop.
MO: Yes, and there used to be a Miss Higgins the, had a grocer's, a little grocer's shop.
SB: Oh, that was higher up.
MO: Higher up, yes.
SB: There was Ramsey's, and then there was Skerman's. Do you remember that? Miss Squires
JR: Yes, I knew they lived next to
SB: Barber's.
JR: Barber's, that's right.
SB: Because I can remember the, he used to have a, oh, it was owl, I think it was, err, something of the sort in a cage at the back of his shop, one of 'em. i don't know whether it was Skerman or whether it was Squires. And as kids we used to love to get round there to see this old owl in this cage. (Laughs)
JR: Yes, again, on another tape, one of the people said that they used to get mice for the owl, used to go and find mice
SB: Oh, yes! No, I never knew that
JR: No, no, that's another
SB: But I can remember going to see it.
JR: Was Mrs. Botsford's shop called Botsfords or was it called something else?
SB: No, it was called Botsfords.
JR: Oh, it was, yes. This other one you mentioned - Mayling's - was in Port Vale? That was another sweet shop?
SB: That was only a little shop you know. It was a little corner shop style of things 'cos our nanny used to do quite a good business in St. Andrew Street. 'Cos I can remember my father going up there and turning the handle for making ice-cream when they used to do it all by hand and used to have ice and put round it and turn the handle. It was real hard work making ice cream that time o'day and I know he used to go and help for Bank Holidays and things like that.
JR: Do you remember any particular characters who used to be around the town when you were young?
SB: Well, I don't know whether, I don't suppose there's anybody. I mean as a kid I remember going round with ol' Phil Botsford, Philip. I used to go round with 'im, mainly. I was very friendly with 'im when we were young. And we used to go up Railway Street, you know, the lower end as it were, on a Saturday, and we used to wait for them, ol' Luddy Moulding. He was an old boy who'd get the worse for drink but he'd fight always, and you knew you was goin' to get some amusement! (Laughs)
And kids like that don't they? You like to see, I know I used to like to see a good fight!
JR: So, who would he fight? Just anyone or was it?
SB: Oh no, he'd pick a quarrel with somebody in the pub who'd had a lot to drink like he had. But it wouldn't last long, you know. It'd only be a few blows but they'd get knocked down on the ground.
JR: And they'd come out on the street and have a fight?
SB: Yes, oh yes, not in the pub, no. 'Cos they weren't very big pubs. They was very small, you know. They'd hold half a dozen people I suppose and that would be the lot. And there was no first and second class. It was all
JR: Well, you said there were 52 of them, is that right?
SB: Yes. They said in Railway Street in the old part of it, there was 52 pubs one for every day of the year
JR: Every week of the year, yes.
SB: But there was course, see we got a lot of breweries, hadn't we? We got McMullen's, then there was Nicholl's, and Wickham's and then there was like outside brewers used to come in as well. I don't remember who they were now.
JR: Were Young's still there in South Street? Were they still operating?
SB: Who?
JR: Young's Brewery?
SB: Don't know any Youngs
JR: O.K.
SB: No, I can't recall Young's Brewery. Course McMullen's done the bulk of the trade. But 1 mean at that time it was all horse drawn vehicles. I mean, there was nothing else. And then McMullen's afterwards had Foden engines. I don't know whether you know what they are? Like a steam engine they were, done with coal.
JR: They still have one
SB: Have they still got one? That was the first thing I can remember other than horses. 'Cos they kept their horses, you know, carried on with them quite a long time. But of course the roads were bad then because the roads weren't tarmaced. They were just put down. I mean us kiddles used to love it. You'd run behind the water cart. It was just torn up with the old steam roller. There was a prong at the back what they used to tear up the road with. And then they used to shovel 'em off into carts. And then they'd bring back fresh gravel or whatever it was they used to bring and put a base on it. And then it was sanded but there was no tarmac. And the steam roller'd go up and down that road with the water cart following it or the other way round, until it bedded down as it were.
And then I can remember as a child used to go out with mother and father for a walk on Sundays. We used to, that was the ritual when the weather was nice.
And I can remember when we had the first motor cars about, and they used to come on this road before it was tarred and the dust used to come on like a thick fog and it used to be terrible, 'cos of the road. But of course then they did start tarring it and sanding it before they put the gravel there and they made it certainly better. But of course there wasn't ail the cars about. 'Cos I remember the old doctors. They used to come in a horse drawn thing, a trap or something of the sort, old Doctor Hall. I don't know if you remember him
MO: I remember hearing about him
SB: He was the opposite side of the road to the others, Dr. Eager and that side, near Reeds, the, and the ponce station just round the corner.
MO: Yes, I remember when it was Dr. Vivian in my time on that corner, yes.
SB: And the old doctors used to come. Mainly the doctor I can remember as a youngster was Dr. Patch but I can't recall anything of him at all but I can remember, you know, me parents calling him old Patch.
JR: Do you remember the district nurses that used to ride about on bikes?
SB: District nurse? No I don't.
MO: There was one called Nurse Campion who was a great
SB: She never used to come to us as far as I know. I mean, mother had the children at home. We used to have a midwife come round and then, Mrs. Pickup was one of them. Used to live in Bengeo somewhere. I don't know which one it was. She used to come to the house and she used to stop, you know, over the final part of the confinement. But I remember when me youngest sister was born, they sent me off to me uncle's down in, and stopped a fortnight and we used to go to Luton quite a lot. And we used to use the old Hertford North Station, you know. Used to go up Port Hill and just through the gates at the top of the first Port Hill, you know, not the big hill, the first part and through the gates at the top and down the lope and over the river. There was a bridge there to the station. And then of course we used to go through to Hatfield because Welwyn Garden City wasn't there then. And we used to go through to Hatfield and then change right across the other side and Luton was the opposite side of it, not the centre 'cos they were the main lines, weren't they? One side was Hertford and the other side was Luton.
MO: That railway line went just by, I mean, it was next to your house, wasn't it? Your garden?
SB: Yes, used to come by the side of the house. 'Cos we used to tell the time, you know, by the trains that went by. We didn't have to look at the clock. If you was in the garden you'd know what time it was by the train going out. I know we used to have one always on a Sunday morning at twenty five past eight! And that used to be the one that went, nobody was allowed in bed after that had gone. (laughs)
MO: You didn't have far to go to church, did you?
SB: Oh, no.
MO: The church was a low church wasn't it?
SB: Yes, oh yes, nothing, no candles or anything. It was just extreme from what my mother was used to 'cos she was at St Saviour's at Luton which had almost, English Catholic you might say. It was a high church. 'Cos I used to come as a child and I used to go to it with me cousins and I never liked it at all you know, swinging of incense and that kind of thing. And they used to be long services and most of it was sung and, of course, I didn't know. I knew me own hymns from me own church but I didn't know those. But then of course the old parsons, they used to preach such long sermons. Don't know whether you used to think they did but they used, about half-an-hour was about the time.
JR: Yes, a long time to sit isn't it?
SB: And it's a long time for a child to sit still especially if you'd been, you see on Sunday you went to Sunday School at ten o'clock. Then you went from Sunday School to church which was at eleven o'clock, and you come out of church then at half-past-twelve. And then you'd go back to Sunday School again at three o'clock in the afternoon and come out at four.
JR: Yes. It was virtually all day, wasn't it?
SB: Yes, and that as well, you weren't allowed to play on Sunday I mean we didn't play any games or anything of the sort on a Sunday. Me father used to sit and read Swiss Family Robinson, or something like that. I can remember mother'd go to church and he'd stop at home and look after the kids and read these books to us. He had arthritis very bad when he was about sixty and he was away from work for about six months and he never had no sleep. It was terrible. And then we used to play like dominoes with him and anything like that to try and, well, it helped us children and it helped him. Give him something to do.
MO: Where did you all sleep, because it, there were two bedrooms, were there?
SB: There's only two bedrooms, yeah. Well when we were young of course, we all slept in the back bedroom. There was two double beds. They was quite big rooms, and we had two double beds. And then as we got older me brother and I'd go in the front bedroom and me mother used to come in the back bedroom with the girls and me father was in the front bedroom with the boys, style of thing.
MO: And the lavatory was outside in the garden, was it?
SB: Outside, it wasn't in the garden. It wasn't down the bottom of the garden, 'cos I've been to some houses were you had to go down the bottom of the garden, but it was, had to go out in the rain.
JR: lt was attached to the house though was it?
SB: Yes, attached to the house, but it was er, only years before, an undertaker had lived in the house so there was quite a big shed.
End of Side A
Side B
JR: So, how old do you think the house was, in Russell Street?
SB: Well, I should say now it's about a hundred and fifty years old.
JR: Yes, about 1850.
SB: Yes, that'd be my guess for it. I don't know, but I should say George Street and that kind of thing, you know, all built much about the same time, all very similar houses.
MO: We had a cottage in George Street, the family. Evan Marks bought a cottage in George Street because, to get extra votes. So that's why he got extra votes. And it was sold for four hundred and eighty pounds.
SB: 'Cos Briden's used to be up there then didn't they, up George Street. They weren't up the Vale then. They was up George Street. And there was Well's the boot shop. Do you remember Well's. They was in the Vale next loor to the bakers when it was in the Vale.
MO: I remember Briden's.
JR: So only one side or Russell Street was built on, wasn't it. What was on the other side?
SB: Gardens! I don't know when it would be. I suppose it would be after the 1914-18 war about 1920. We used to have a, well, they come for about a couple of years, a variety show in the garden. There was a walled garden. Scott Gordon it was called. The one who run it. There was him and his wife and there was a baritone and there was a comedian or dancer. And I can remember going there, like on a, used to have our half day on a Thursday, and we used to go and listen to this. Quite a lot of people used to come because it was amusing variety. And they was a very jovial lot. And they used to mix with the townspeople in the day. And there was quite a good baritone singer. Other than that it was used, most of it was used as gardens.
JR: Who did it belong to then? Was it McMullens?
SB: No, I honestly don't know who it did belong to but I don't McMullens. I think it was more likely to belong to the house that used to go up. There used to be Chaprnan. There used to be a little lodge before you got to Christ Church.
JR: Yes, it's still there.
SB: There was a drive up there.
JR: To The Grove?
SB: Yes, to The Grove and at the top there was a house. I think Durrants lived in it at one time, Dr. Durrant. But he wasn't an ordinary doctor. He was to do with schools, used to go round to the schools I think, from what I can remember of him. And they used to live up there. And I always used to fancy that this ground belonged to them. Whether it did or not I don't know.
JR: Yes, it could have done, because the lodge belonged to them. It's likely then.
SB: Yes, he was a boot repairer wasn't he, Mr. Chaprnan. Sammy Chapman, as they used to call him. And he was, his daughter, no, his wife was Mrs. Sketcher's, which was the first house in Russell Street, daughter so we used to see him quite a bit. And I used to run, I remember running errands for old Mrs. Chappell 'cos she was a cripple. She'd got one cork boot but a real character. And of course Sammy Chapman used to play in the Hertford Militia Band that we used to come out of church on a Sunday, once a month it was. And we used to run, this was before 1914, used to run from the, from our church to St. Andrew's Church where they used to have the service. And they used to come out of there and then they'd march up to the barracks which then was in London Road. I don't know whether it's still there now
MO: Oh, no, it's the fire station now.
SB: Not there! It's on the left-hand side, opposite Cowper School it was.
JR: It's gone now, but the site's well remembered.
SB: Yes, that's where the band used to march, from St. Andrew's church to there playing all the time. And course they was in red uniform. It wasn't khaki. It was red you know, quite ornamental. I know as kids we used to love this old band on a Sunday. They used to call it the Hertford Militia Band. Course after the war started it all finished and it never started any more.
JR: So they marched from their headquarters, the Herts Yeomanry
SB: Well, course we all had to go to church on the Sunday morning, so, of course, when we come out of church they'd be coming out of church, more or less. So we used to have to run, I know, to get there in time to see them come out. 'Cos it was a full size band you know. It was quite good.
MO: You don't remember the Boer War, do you?
SB: No, no, no, no.
JR: You've got on your list, drilling in Hartham, 1911 Coronation.
SB: Yes, well, I can remember in as much only going down there as a child and drilling on Hartham with two little Union Jacks. You know, we had to do a drill and a class as it were, formation and that's the only thing I can remember about it. But I can remember us all going down as children, and drilling down there.
JR: Do you remember any other notable events?
SB: Well, the one I was saying about, the Aerial Derby that took place on Hartham. Well, it didn't actually take place there but you went there to see it, because what it was, it was a triangle course. It wasn't all that far, I forget where one of these other places was, Cuffiey or somewhere, and then somewhere else to make a triangle. And then these planes used to come on this particular Saturday and they used to flyover and you used to get, at that time of day, I mean a lot of it was experimental as it were. There was triplanes. There was monoplanes and biplanes. You had the three. And I can remember the last time it was flown a German won it, Hammell his name was, in his plane. And we often talked about it. Whether he was one of them who was instrumental in getting us bombed during the war. I don't suppose he was but, I know we used to talk about it. It used to be ever so interesting to us kids because they didn't fly all that high and they followed one another pretty quick. And there was like a handicap there so you'd see one overtaking the other. And they'd go round this circuit, I don't know whether it was two or three times, something like that
JR: When did that start then, before the war or after?
SB: Before the war. Well, I don't know how early it started but I can remember like about 1911-12, something like that. And it went on until 1914 I think.
JR: Yes, and started again after the war?
SB: 1don't think it did because they used to have the other one down at the, oh what do they call it? Snyder Cup, wasn't it? Where they used to fly the Cornet. They'd fly a seaplane to get the greater speed, you know, world speed record. They got it several times. Down, I don't know whether it was Southampton but somewhere down there.
MO: I do remember going up to the top of Gallows Hill and watching what was The King's Cup Air Race and Hertford was one of the turning points, and it went on to Hatfield. And I just remember these biplanes. So we had aerial activity!
JR: Yes, you have, haven't you! Now what about two things, the old North Station, and Irish navvies building the tunnel from Hertford to Waterford.
SB: Well, I mean, all I can remember is going down to the Hertford North Station from Port Hill as a child and going, ⅔d return to Luton, I think it was at that time of day. And we used to go to the Hertford North and as I say we used to go through as far as Hatfield because Welwyn Garden City didn't exist then as a station. But it was all steam trains, you know, puffing billies all the time.
At times when there was a very heavy goods train it used to shake the house. I remember that quite well. 'Cos he used to have a job to get round the bend, 'cause there used to be a bend at the top when it turned round like towards the North. The new North Station on that bend there. He used to have a job to the round the bend and sometimes he would even have to shunt back and have another go at it.
MO: Did that go through Hertingfordbury, that line, Hertingfordbury and Cole Green? No that was later presumably and then that went on into
SB: No, the first stop used to be Hertingfordbury
MO: Hertingfordbury?
SB: Hertingfordbury was the first stop and then it was Cole Green and then it was Hatfield and then for Luton we used to go Ayot St. Lawrance or Ayot Green, I don't know which it was, Ayot St. Lawrence, I think, Wheathampstead, Harpenden, Luton Hoo, Luton.
JR: But the present, if you wanted to go to Hatfield, where did you get off? Where was the station? Where it is now?
SB: Where it is now as far as I know. I don't think it's altered. I mean I haven't been to Hatfield for the last twenty-five years
MO: They always had it purposely built opposite Lord Salisbury's gates.
SB: 'Cos I can still remember one Christmas Eve catching the train at Luton to come home at Christmas per Hatfield and it was late for some reason. I don't know what it was. And when I go. to Hatfield, me bus which connected then had gone and I had to walk.
JR: From Hatfield here?
SB: Ten o'clock at night from Hatfield to Hertford.
JR: And you remember them building the tunnel, do you, Molewood Tunnel?
SB: Well, I can remember the men being there. You couldn't see them doing it for the simple reason there was trucks running up and down. But it was all done with hand labour, these old navvies. And I mean the most I remember about them, they was, you know weekends, they was a real boozy lot they were.
JR: So did they lodge in Hertford, then?
SB: I couldn't tell you. I should imagine they must have done or they had tents or something. I don't know.
MO: I think a lot of them actually settled in Hertford.
SB: Afterwards, yeah, yes quite possible
MO: See their names on the tombstones in the Catholic Churchyard.
SB: 'Cos when the air raids were bad, 'cos they'd got it built by the time the war started, just the tunnel, but I mean it wasn't in operation. And we used to go up there after we'd had one or two bad raids. We used to go up at night and go up the tunnel and take a sack of straw and sit on, until the 'all clear' went and then tramp home. Well, it wasn't that far for most of us, quarter of an hour's walk. There was quite a lot of people used to come from all round the Vale 'cos it was handy you see. It wasn't in use. It wasn't dangerous at all. And the railway didn't make no bones about it. Well we didn't do any harm, 'cos it was all in the dark. It wasn't lit up. You used to have to take your own torch or your own lamp or whatever it was.
JR: So it was just used as a shelter then?
SB: Yes.
JR: Somebody else actually used to go there. Do you know Reg Purkis?
SB: Who?
JR: Reg Purkis! Do you remember that family in Molewood Road?
SB: Yes, 'cos they was related to us
JR: Were they?
SB: Indirectly. Something to do with me mother. There was Mr. Poole and Mr. Purkis married two sisters. Mr, Poole used to make the mineral water at Sheffield's what you was talking about, used to work there. And then when Boots opened he took a job at Boots and used to be on the counter. I mean he knew a good lot about it because he used to help out at Sheffield's. But he went to Boots when they came here.
JR: So you knew the Purkis family then?
SB: Oh, yes, 'cos they almost lived side by side, I think, down Molewood Road on the left-hand side.
JR: Yes, he lived at the first house, still does, Reg, number 7, on the meads, on water meadow side.
SB: Yes. And then there was a Miss Hill lived there. I used to go down there for Ada Murray who lived in Russell Street with Mr. Murray. And I used to go down there and take notes, I remember as a child, to this Miss Hill. Her brother was a tailor.
JR: Do you remember by any chance the Wackett family?
SB: Which ones?
JR: Cycle Shop.
SB: Yes, in…
MO: Castle Street?
JR: No. St. Andrew Street.
SB: Hertingfordbury Road
JR: Well, yes
SB: Well it might have been the end of St. Andrew Street.
JR: Yes, I think it was, next to Pateman's Dairy.
SB: Yes, oh, yes. That's brought Pateman back to me now, I'd forgotten that.
JR: Only Gladys, the daughter worked in Hilton's the shoe shop
SB: In Maidenhead Street
JR: Being in the same business as you, I thought you might know her. I think she would have been about the same age as you, maybe slightly younger.
SB: I used to work with Doris Wackett, but that was the other brother that used to have the petrol station near the bridge, along farther up. But he was separate. Whereas the one that lived next door to Patemans was the old one. I think that belonged to their father, didn't it, in the first place there and he took it over. But they used to have all the cycles in the window. 'Cos I bought a Raleigh from there.
JR: What about, did you know any of the Farrow family, Eileen Farrow?
SB: Which Farrows, in Fore Street? The Restaurant?
JR: The restaurant yes. Did Eileen work at Graveson's?
SB: Well, when I left there a fella took over. I mean when I went as a manager and then left, they made another appointment. And then the war like come on after two years and he had to go to the. 'cos he was only a young fella, he had to go in the army and Miss Farrow took over the boot department. She used to be on haberdashery or somewhere there.
JR: Yes, she did. She's the sister of Thora Blake who was Thora Farrow obviously before. There were four of them weren't there?
MO: Yes. They had a sweet shop in, didn't they have a sweet shop in Fore Street?
SB: Who?
MO: Farrows
SB: No, restaurant in Fore Street.
JR: Thora is still alive. She lives now in Ware, in a residential home. Oh, that's good, isn't it?
SB: But I mean they was in some of the younger ones that come after. I mean I was almost leaving when they come because there used to be a Miss Scutts, was her name, Scutts. She lived in and she was there donkey’s years on the corsets. She used to do. Then there was Miss Baxter, that was Baxter's in Wash, the game people, you know. They used to sell game and that kind of thing. One of their daughters, and there was old Jimmy Hill. In the office was Miss Dickins. And then going back before then though he wasn't there. I don't know whether he was there with me a little while but not very long was Farnham, you know, who kept the newsagents on Old Cross. He worked in the office at Graveson's for some little time.
JR: What job did he have there?
SB: He was in the office.
JR: Yes, just office work, was it?
SB: Yes, I don't remember really what it was.
JR: He wasn't the manager or anything?
SB: No, no because he was only quite
JR: But you said before we started to tape, that some of the people who worked in Graveson's lived on the premises.
SB: Yes, well Miss Scutts was one and then there used to be Miss Kean who had the workroom upstairs, and she used to, there used to be what? I daresay there was twelve or fourteen girls used to work in this workroom, just making clothes, dressmaking. You could go there to be taught dressmaking. . I think there was a Miss Farrow lived in George Street, worked with them. There was Reg Farrow's brother and who was the other one? There was two brothers, and a daughter.
MO: Do you remember Mr. Chapman who worked on the, what was the drapers, you know who had the bales of cloth, Chapman. He was a Quaker. Perhaps that was after your time.
SB: Oh, yes, Chapman yeah, but he come long while afterwards, because he was at Small and Burgess's, wasn't he?
MO: Oh yes, that's right, yes.
SB: Yes, he was at Small and Burgess's quite a long time. Alfred Graveson hirnsalf used to be in charge o' the drapery. He worked on there and then there was George Stevens. He was my age. His father used to keep the harness shop in St. Andrew Street opposite St. Andrew's Church, went up two or three steps. Harness maker it was there. He used to be there with me and then there was old Herbie Nicholls. He left and went as a silk buyer somewhere after he left Graveson's. And then upstairs was Miss Row. You could recall them could you, Rows?
JR: Was that the station master at the East Station
SB: Yes, yes, you got the family. There was a Miss Row and then one of them married a Mr. Garrad in Ware Road. Do you recall them?
JR: Garrad
SB: Garrad. He married one of the Miss Rows. And then Miss Garrad, the daughter, she come in Graveson's office after and then she married Creasey who used to keep the Green Dragon at the end of Maidenhead Street. Then there was Miss Salmon. She was in charge of the millinery department. She was a real old battle-axe to us youngsters. But I can remember her quite well. And there was Mr, one of the Silbey. Do you remember Silbey the electrical boot repairer in West Street?
MO: Oh,yes!
SB: He was a cripple; used to have one of these, you know. 'Cos he used to do the repairs for Graveson's. We used to buy the material and he used to do it. And she used to work in the millinery department.
MO: And who was in charge of the men's department?
SB: Mr. Fuller!
MO: Oh, yes of course!
SB: And then during the war, Mrs. Fuller took over, 'cos he got a commission in the army in the war. I don't know what it was, captain or something
(Extraneous noise)
MO: I'm so sorry!
JR: Don't worry!
SB: Hasn't broke has it?
MO: No, no, no, it's just fallen out!
SB: And then of course upstairs, as I say, in this workroom, where these girls used to work, if anybody died, I mean at that time of day you always had black and you know, at times, they was worked to death. You know certain times of the year there's a lot more people die there than others. And I can remember them up there working all hours, these girls, but they was always busy. And Miss Kean, the one in charge o' them, she used to live on the premises. And then there was Miss Cadmore. She was the housekeeper. And then there was a Studman, Winnie Studman. And then of course the brother was down in the Men's wear. But there used to be, I don't know, about five living in, something like that. And of course there was the dining room there. I mean we used to have a, juniors didn't, but the seniors used to go up and have a cup of tea.
JR: Was this on the very top floor, the dining room?
SB: Well, the top floor but one, 'cos there's attics
JR: So the attics were the bedrooms, were they?
SB: Yes, well some of them were. Some of them had better bedrooms than others, you know. Some were in the attics and soma were downstairs in the better bedrooms.
JR: It doesn't seem big enough to me to have all these things in it, but it must be
SB: Oh, it was quite a large building, yes.
MO: Because it went over the shoe shop, didn't it, the boot shop?
SB: Yes. Course now they've done away with that haven't they?
JR: Oh, it was bigger then than it is now. So you were there till 1925 and you left the town then. You got a job in Luton then, not Luton
SB: Two years then I went to Newmarket.
JR: Newmarket I mean, yes that's right
SB: And I was there through practically the whole of the war. I think I came there about in February or something like that as the war ended. When was it? July or something like
that, later
JR: Oh. Good. And then you went back for two years in 1936?
SB: '36 to '38 I went there just before the war started. I only done two years there and then we lived in Ware Road, a good bit of the time opposite Kingsmead School as it was then. 'Cos Mr, Botsford and Vale, then it was Botsford, Vale and Whiteman because they took another partner in, when they took up more building. They starts doing a bit of building. I don't think they ever made a lot of money out of it but they took in Whiteman as the other partner. Then Mr. Vale died soon afterwards but he was a decorator, he was.
The interesting thing, I mean that kept your interest at Graveson's was I went to, we went to the wedding of Mr. William's daughter. What was her name, Peggy, was it? There was Peggy and there was Alfred's. Alfred had one daughter and William had a daughter and a son. His son was a master I think at Cambridge or Oxford, somewhere there
MO: There was Bernard, wasn't there? Bernard Graveson
SB: Bernard Graveson was Sam Graveson's son. Sam wasn't in the business. He lived at Ayot St. Lawrence, next door to, what was the old, oh, who used to write
MO: Bernard Shaw!
SB: Bernard Shaw! Because we went over there, I can remember, had an outing, went over there and played cricket, you know, in the summer. Had a tea out in the garden on trestles and that kind of thing, the staff did. And I remember you know, being against Bernard Shaw then. And of course I think Bernard wanted to be farming and I don' think they was in a big enough way to make any money at it. So then he come into the business because nobody was interested in the business, you see, not the next generation.