Interviewed by Jean Riddell Purkis (JR)
Date: 26/08/1996
Transcribed by Jean Riddell Purkis
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no O 1996.37
Interviewee: Rose Sullivan (RS) and Les Sullivan (LS)
Date: 26 August 1996
Venue: 47 The Dell
Interviewer: Jean Riddell
Transcriber: Jean Riddell Purkis
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
JR: This is Jean Riddell and this afternoon I am at the home of Les and Rose Sullivan, 47 The Dell, Cecil Road, Hertford. It’s Bank Holiday Monday 26th August 1996 and the time is 25 to 3. Now I have come here this afternoon because Les lived in Haydens Court off Railway Street as a boy and he has identified the people that are in the photograph of Haydens Court that’s presently in the Museum. Did you always live in Haydens Court?
LS: Oh, no, no, we only lived up there for well, I should say three or four years, actually.
JR: Yes, yes, but you remember it quite well?
LS: Oh, yes, yes, well I say if that photograph is, they say 1933, I was eleven then and that was when I started to go to Cowper School - same time as Mr. Green come there as a schoolmaster.
JR: Well, let's go back to where you were actually born, first of all, I think.
LS: Well, my mother was born in Hertford, me mother was, I was actually born at St. Albans and then we came back; we lived at Ware and Rye House and then come back to Hertford again y'know and at that time we lived up Haydens Court; we lived down on the old car park.......
JR: Bircherley Street?
LS: Yes, in that old black house next door to the Salvation Army Hall, you know. Then we moved up to the gaol, we lived up there for a little while, but just before the war started we went down to what's - Gas House Lane, now called Marshgate Lane (Drive).
JR: Yes, I know.
LS: 'Course, I was , went in the army early on...I was in Territorial Army, y'know and I was called up at the beginning of the war.
JR: So, you were born in 1922, in St. Albans, and in what year about, did you come to Hertford?
LS: I remember going to Abel Smith School so it must have been about eight I should think.
JR: Yes, about 1930. What was your first home in the town?
LS: Well, we was actually in rooms at Gallows Hill in the first place until we....I should imagine....and then we moved into Haydens Court.
JR: So, let's talk about that then. Now, you've identified yourself sitting on the doorstep and your mum is looking out behind you, and next door is.......who did we say that was?
LS: Mrs. North.
JR: We thought it was Mrs. North....Mrs. North and then your mum.....
LS: And I'm the small boy sitting on the doorstep.
JR: You're the smaller one.
LS: And that's Frank Bradshaw sitting beside me.
JR: Right. Now on the other side of the ro......well, it wasn't a road........a yard, wasn't it, that lady looking out of the door there is.....
LS: Mrs. Nash.....and the two very small girls in the picture are her two daughters, and the girl kneeling behind them is Edie Cook and the boy standing up is Joe Cook. They lived just round the corner, you know, when you first entered, to come up to the yard or the court.
JR: Yes, I see, so all those people lived more or less in the court, or just round the corner.
LS: Yes, and as I say, there was another family, the Grumball’s, they lived up there.
JR: Yes, I think I've seen their names in a street directory. So what were those houses like to live in - can you remember?
LS: Well, they was just....you went in that door and there was just one room with fireplace, with a bit of a stove, you know, where you could stand a kettle on the side and that sort of thing and then there was just the stairs leading up to the bedroom and that's about all we had. We never had any light, no, only like paraffin or candle and there was no water in the house, the water was up the yard. There was no sinks in the houses; the toilet’s were up the yard, which as I say, we had to share because there wasn't an individual toilet, there might have been three for the yard, something like that, you know.
JR: Were they flush toilets?
LS: Yes, there was a flush.
JR: There was water laid on........
LS: Yes there was water laid on.
JR: You had a tap, a communal tap?
LS: Yes, in the yard, which you know, sort of in them days the old taps used to get frozen up in the winter time. They was always exposed to the weather, you know, and well, that's how it was. The clothes lines went across the....from one house to the other - you can see the line, mostly metal lines in them days.
JR: Yes, and the clothes prop.
LS: The old clothes prop and the old bath which would be used for more than one purpose - be used for washing up, as well as.......household washing as well as personal washing, you know..
JR: But these shed-like places at the end....
LS: That's the toilet and that was like where we got the water.
JR: Right, so did everybody use that bath then, in turn, or did you have your own bath?
LS: No, we had our own bath - nearly everybody had a bath - you had to do the old washing by hand on the old washboard and wring them out by hand and all that sort of thing, you know, didn't even have mangles at that particular time. I suppose there was mangles in existence but we wasn't in a position to buy one.
JR: You didn't have a copper anywhere there?
LS: No, no it must have been done on the fire, must have been, I can't think of any other way it could have been done.
JR: Boiled up........
LS: Big old' course there were......not saucepans but big cast iron things and you used to put them in there and let them boil up and soak and that sort of thing.
JR: What kind of fire was it, was it an open fire?
LS: Yes, it would be a sort of stove, you know...might have a little oven at one side.
JR: A little range.
LS: Yes, that sort of thing.
JR: So the water would be put on top of that in the saucepan-like thing....
LS: That's it yes, and kettle.
JR: So your mum was busy then?
LS: Yes, yes.
JR: And tell me how many brothers and sisters you had.
LS: At that particular time I had a sister who was eight years older than me, a brother who was ten years older than me, and another brother who was twelve was living there at that particular time.
JR: Yes, but your mum had a lot of children didn't she.
LS: Oh, yes, she actually had sixteen children from two marriages and in the second marriage she had three lots of twins, a boy and a girl in each case, but in the middle set of twins, the boy was born dead and three of the children, must have been of her first marriage....they must have died young, but there was twelve of us survived, you know.
JR: Yes. Where you from the first or the second marriage?
LS: Second marriage. I'm the very youngest of the lot. Not many of us left now.
JR: She didn't have any more after you, then.
LS: No, no, my mother was forty when she had me.
JR: Right. She did very well to survive all that, didn't she?
LS: Yes, yes. She died just before she was seventy four.
JR: So what did your father do?
LS: Well, they come here when the railway was.....this railway was being built (Hertford Loop Line). McAlpines, they come here, apparently there was a lot of Irishmen come here at the time and a lot of them worked.....done the same thing as my father....they moved on and left their wives behind....it happened to several families, even one man who was married to an Irishwoman and he done the same thing - left them - left the family behind.
JR: So, he left your mother......
LS: Mm...he did take one of me brothers but it wasn't long before he brought him back and dumped him with one of my aunts.
JR: Oh, dear, so your mum had a lot to do.
LS: Yes, as a matter of fact she must have got in such a bit of a state, they turned her out on the street one time, and I suppose me being the youngest one, I was lucky because I had three sisters and a brother that I met after the war that as far as I could remember, I'd never seen them before in me life. There was two girls that was at St. Albans, they was in the Fire Brigade and me brother had been in the Merchant Navy. I don't know what my other sister had been doing, but she was - they was twins, boy and a girl was twins, the young ones, the oldest two, one of them was a twin and the other one was a single one and one of them married a Canadian soldier and they....the two older girls finished up in Canada.
JR: What was the name of your mother's first husband?
LS: Barbrook, it's a name that must come up a bit.
JR: Yes, was it the same family as I'm thinking of? Kate Barbrook?
LS: Yeah, that's it, that's her - she was my second oldest sister - she's been dead just over a twelvemonth.
RS: Died in March, didn't she....
LS: Yes, last March, yes. She must have been about eighty, oh, I should say somewhere about eighty seven, I should think.
JR: She was a well-known Salvationist, wasn't she.
LS: Yes, that's it....she never did get married, that one.
JR: No. Actually, I did hope to eventually do a tape with her, but we left it too late.
LS: Yes, she did know a lot, she had a pretty good memory and records.
JR: So who else was in that family, the Barbrook family?
LS: Well, there was me eldest brother, George, then there was Fred, no, there was Laura came next, then Fred, then Bob. Then we come on to the other side of the family - Mick and Mary, Clara, she was a, Clara was a single one, and there was Doll, she was another twin with a boy that died, Alf and Joyce and then me.
JR: Right, so it's a long list of names!
LS: In another three weeks I shall be seventy four. A lot of the others are dead, you know.
RS: There's a twin brother over eighty still alive and they say twins don't normally live that long, you know....his sister died, didn't she.
LS: His sister died when she was seventy eight.
RS: But the twin to her's still alive, and he's over eighty.
JR: And how many people did you say were living in this house at one time....was it four children and your mum?
LS: Yes, well, me father wasn't there and there was only one bedroom.
JR: Did you all sleep in the one bedroom?
LS: Must have done, couldn't have been anywhere else we could have slept.
JR: Well, I didn't know if anyone slept in the living room.
LS: I shouldn't think so, no.
JR: Because there rooms weren't very big, were they.
LS: No.
JR: Were they as big as this room, or a bit bigger?
LS: No, not as big as this room.
JR: Not as big as this room
LS: No, somewhere about that, I think.(indicates a smaller size).
JR: I mean, they don't look very big. They don't go back very far, do they.
LS: No, no, there's nothing at the back, they've just a wall, no windows at the back.
JR: So you only had two windows in the house and one door.
LS: One door, yes.
JR: So, it was really only a shelter, in a way, wasn't it, the house?
LS: Well, that's how half the people in the town were living, you know, the old part of the town. I mean, there were some more houses down Dolphin Yard and Maidenhead Yard. They turned them houses two into one at the finish, down Maidenhead Yard. They would be similar to them, they was brick and as time went on they just knocked two houses into one.
JR: When were these pulled down, then, in Haydens Court?
LS: Well, they was pulled down before the war, I should say somewhere about '37, around that area. Because they hadn't cleared it out when the war started, although the houses had been pulled down, there was nothing been done up there, there was just the old foundations that was left I remember. When they cleared it up, I don't know, but that's how it was at the beginning of the war.
JR: Yes, and that is on the South Street side of the Friends' Meeting House - it came straight - You told me just now that there was the Friends' Meeting House and then one house which was facing the street, but....
LS: ....laid back....
JR: ...and you went past that house.......
LS: ...up and turned left and then you was in the.......
JR: Yes, and two rows of houses were there either side of the yard. Yes, that's very good, knowing that (for the future!).
LS: They very likely went down a bit further this way but not on this side, you know.
JR: Yes, I know, I see, yes, yes. Now, at the end of the yard were two sheds - I think we've probably talked about those - I can't remember now! The left hand one is the toilet and there were three toilets?
LS: I should say round about three...there wasn't enough for everybody to have one, you had to share 'em, you know.
JR: We think there were about eight houses in the yard, don't we....
LS: Yes.
JR: And the next shed was where the water taps were, this one here....
LS: That's right, where you got the water.
JR: And you could get out either side?
LS: No, there was only one way out - one way in, one way out - same as the houses....
RS: ...because the houses where the Lord Haig is, where the Lord Haig is, there was all houses along there, weren't there.
JR: Yes, little cottages all the way round, that's right. In fact, I think you mentioned...
RS: ....must have backed onto them mustn't they, must have backed onto each other.
JR: Yes, they must have done. You were mentioning Cliff North lived round on that....
LS: ....he lived in Railway Street more or less in the front.
JR: Facing the street?
LS: Yes, on that side, but facing....if I remember rightly, them houses, when you went in, you went down a bit, you know, they weren't level with the path. I think you went down slightly. A lot of houses seemed to be like that - they were round the War Memorial, weren't they, them little old cottages there - you went in and then you went down.
JR: I don't know whether they built the pavements up over the years and that's why they were below street level - they were probably once on the level. I imagine the water would get in a bit, wouldn't it......to these houses which are below street level? Wouldn't the water run off the pavement?
LS: I don't remember really, I suppose it's just the way the doors was made, so the rain'd come off them. Never really heard of people getting flooded.
RS: My aunt used to live in one of those near the memorial where you...now them, they've not got a door in the front now, but years ago they used to have a door, because my aunt lived in the middle one and we used to go down.
JR: Yes, they seem to be well below street level, those houses, don't they. There are two cottages still at then end of St. Andrew Street, next to Roche's...they're below.
LS: My mother would have been born down there, down this road.......em........
JR: Bircherley Street?
LS: Bircherley Street.
JR: So, from this court, when you left there, you were about thirteen, or something.
LS: I know when I started work I was living up The Gaol when I was fourteen 'cos I went to work then.
JR: You were saying you lived down....
LS: .....down on the....where the old car park was, you know, in the old black house just a little way down from the Salvation Army Hall.
JR: Yes, the black house. Did you call it the black house?
LS: Well, I don't know what it was called, but it was a black house...wood and..........
JR: ....tarred?
LS: Nearly all black wood, you know.
JR: What were they like, those houses, were they bigger than these?
LS: Yeah, yeah, bigger than them .....they had two down and two up....they did, they had two bedrooms and two rooms downstairs, you know, one back of the other, sort of thing.
RS: 'Cos Mrs. Barratt lived in one of them one time.
JR: Mrs. Barratt, who was she, a friend or relative?
RS: No, but her daughter's still about the town - Daphne Neal.
LS: Oh, yeah, they lived there after us in that old house.
JR: Yes, and that house that we said could be seen on p.63 of Len Green's book, the one you lived in, which is interesting because I can probably get a copy of that picture from the Museum. So, you went from Haydens Court to that house next.
LS: That's it, and then up the gaol, better houses they were, better houses.
JR: Yes, they were.
LS: Because they had 2 rooms downstairs, 2 up and a little sort of a scullery affair, like a litle kitchen out the back.
JR: Did they have water laid on?
LS: Yeah, and everything was there - gas and that ort of thing in them places.
JR: What about the black house - did that have water and services?
LS: Yes, that had.
JR: Water inside?
LS: Yes!
JR: And what about the loo?
LS: That would be inside.
JR: Inside loo?
LS: Yeah, I'm pretty certain that was inside.
JR: That wasn't so bad.
LS: Well, I say inside: it was built onto the house and it wasn't up the yard, like - didn't have to go up the yard to it, sort of thing.
JR: What street did you live in on the gaol, then, 'cos they were named after trees.....
LS: Well, we lived in 2 streets there, we lived in Oak Street and in Baker Street. Baker Street was the last one we lived in, the house next door to where the Streets used to be, the coach people.....as you entered the gaol it would be the first house on the left.
JR: And it was a lot better there.
LS: Oh, yes, a lot better there. It'd only got a little bit of yard at the back but they, you know were better houses than, better conditions you know and that sort of thing. And then we went from there down to, as I say, what's now called Marshgate Drive, it was called Gashouse Lane in them days.
JR: Yes. What sort of house was that?
LS: That had two bedrooms and it had a front room and a living room and then below the living room was like, a big kitchen, you know.
JR: Is that still there?
LS: Yes, yes, that's still there but might have been modernised - a lot of them houses –
but it was no. 15 when we lived down there.
JR: I had a look at those houses and when you get round the back they look quite big.
LS: Yeah, yeah, but the stairs are very steep in those places - dangerous. My mother fell down them during the war. Blacked all her eyes and one thing and another - when I was in the army.
I didn't know anything about it but she had a bad fall down the stairs.
RS: When you was in the bedroom you'd got to come down to go to the toilet.
LS: Yeah, come down the bedroom, down into the living room and then down another flight of stairs to get to the toilet, which was ground level down there, but the front room in the front was ground level with the road, so.
JR: So, what do you remember about Railway Street when you were living in that area....because you left there when you were about 14, didn't you, to go and live in the gaol, well you must have come back, I suppose.
LS: Oh, yes, used to come down there quite a lot because, as I say, I had 2 aunts living down on the old Bircherley Court area, you know, they both lived in the same house which was very likely....I imagine was my grandmother's house on my mother's side, you know and they sort of took it over when the old lady passed, because she died when I was l8 months old, me grandmother.
JR: What was her name?
LS: Payne, her married name.
JR: Oh, your mother's maiden name was Payne......just if we hear any more families with that name.
LS: There is some Payne’s - matter of fact, her, my mother's oldest brother is Joe Payne - he used to be the bandmaster in the Salvation Army, but he died the first Christmas of the war. Just before Christmas, like, you know. He used to live down Cromwell Road.
JR: Were your family associated with the Salvation Army then...your half sister was.......
LS: Well, one of my aunts, although she wasn't a Salvationist, but she took the Salvation Army officers in and that sort of thing, because they weren't very well looked after in them days - they had to sort of find their own way along and had to rely on people to give them a good Sunday meal and that sort of thing. Not like it is today, you know, but that's very likely how me sister came to it, but I don't quite know how me uncle come in, him and his son were in it, and his daughter, they was all in the Salvation Army.
JR: They were all living round there where the citadel was though, weren't they?
LS: Yeah, yeah, maybe it could have been that you know, that sort of drawed 'em you know to.....because I heard my elder brother say that, you know, that even before it was Salvation Army, when it was a Ragged School, they used to get soup and things like that, people were glad to get hold of anything in them days.
JR: Yes, I should think they were. When you were living in Haydens Court, was the Salvation Headquarters in the Ragged School that was?
LS: Well, it was there, but they also had another hall very near to the Lord Haig - a more sort of modern place. They didn't seem to use it a lot, I don't know why, but they didn't seem to use that a lot, only occasionally, but they seemed to use the other one down by the river, you know., down there, they seemed to used that a lot. I used to go there to Sunday School. Mrs. Scorer used to be the teacher - they used to keep a shop on Old Cross for the Co-op, a butchers shop.
JR: Mrs. Scorey?
LS: Scorer.
JR: Scorer - oh, we can hear that on the tape, that's fine.
LS: Then there's another Salvationist - there's a picture of what finished up to be his shop in Fore Street. The Thistledoo.
JR: Oh, yes, that was a cafe, wasn't it.
LS: Poor old Jim Roberts.
JR: Yes, I've seen the picture of that. So what about this Dixon then that used to run the.....
LS: I've heard of the name, I've heard of that name Dixon, very likely from my older brothers.
JR: 'Cos Dolly says she remembered Dixon giving food and things from the Salvation Army place. (Back to Thistledoo)
LS: Right on the corner of Fore Street and Market Street.
JR: Yes, and it was taken down to widen Market Street, wasn't it.
LS: Yes, yeah, and we used to go there after the old stale cakes. Two penn'orth of stale cakes.
JR: Everybody seems to be going for them! I don't know how they sold any fresh cakes - everybody waited for Saturday.
LS: Yes, broken biscuits, specky fruit....the things we........
JR: This is exactly what Dolly says, about the specks and about the stale cakes and everybody was doing it.
LS: Yeah, and old Jim Roberts was very good because he used to have little suppers down the Salvation Army Hall, sausage and mash, you used to take your own plate and fork and for a few coppers you'd have sausage and mash. That was the sort of thing they used to do.
JR: To help you out really. What were the......so.....think about Railway Street. What were the things you remember most about life there....was it the characters or was it the....
LS: Well, we had plenty of pubs along there....had about six pubs as far as I can remember, and Saturday night after turning out time you used to give them about l0 minutes and then you'd be very unlucky if there wasn't two or three fights along there on a Saturday night. I don't know why they used to want to fight but they did, you know.
JR: The traditional thing to do, wasn't it.
LS: Yes, yes, sometimes you used to get like Irishmen or Scotsmen in the town doing navvying and they used to be in the old lodging house which used to be off of Railway Street between the 2 fish shops there....used to be Donoughue’s and Tovells, wasn't it....Tovells......it wasn't Tovells in the first place but Tovell married the daughter of the people who had it before then.
JR: Was it Dodsons before that?
LS: Dodsons, yes. And Dodsons had a fish shop over at Ware which was the same family. But the lodging house laid up the back between them two fish shops. You had to go up the yard and a lot of these men'd come out the pub and have an argument, have fight and then stroll back the best of friends!
JR: Yes. They lived in the lodging house?
LS: Yes.
JR: So they were single men, were they mostly?
LS: Yes, mostly, yes, you know, just navvying - travel round where there was a job.
RS: Dodsons were Salvationists, were they?
JR: Were they? Dodsons were?
LS: Yes, and Tovells.
JR: Yes. And there was another lodging house, too, down Green Street somewhere, was it?
LS: Well, no, I think it, maybe you could say it laid off Green Street but it would be down that yard. To get to it, it would actually be in Railway Street and go down the yard. It was a big house and it laid down there quite a bit - very likely the house itself could be very near to Green Street.
JR: So there was only one lodging house as far as you .........
LS: As far as I remember.
JR: Dolly talked about another one as well, unless she's got confused.
LS: Where she lived was......when her mum and dad was there, would not be far from it, but I don't think you could get to it from that way, you had to keep to Railway Street and go down the yard to get to it.
JR: Yes. Now, do you remember who used to start these fights, or used to be involved in the fights?
LS: Well, Luddy Molding was one of the characters, and Johnny Raw and then there was another chap - he always used to get frunk and talk about men with hair on their chests and about Gibralta and one thing and another....
JR: He wasn't called 'Up the Navy!' was he?
LS: That's the bloke! That's the bloke......(laughter) I couldn't think of the name....'Up the Navy!' that's it! .....and I think them three used to sort of take it in turns fighting one another over the period but there was a lot of other odd fights, you know, I mean.
Side B
JR: So, Johnny Raw was one of the three sons of this lady that lived down......
LS: Yes, that's it, lived down there near the river and his two older brothers - big made fellas, and they lived up in that old black house what I pointed out to you and they had a load of steps going up there and they used to wear hob nail boots, corderoy trousers and many a time when somebody fell in that river, 'cos there always seemed to be somebody falling in, and they used to come straight down there and dive straight in with their hobnail boots and corderoy trousers on to get them out, you know. They musta pulled quite a few children out that river. 'Cos being right on the doorstep, that was about the nearest house to the river, you know. I fell in there and my brother got me out with a fishing........broom.
JR: Well, this is what happened, I think - I don't know if any children lost their lives there.
LS: Well, I think there was one little kiddie got killed down there - I've heard my mother talk about it. I think most of us was dragged out one way or the other
JR: Well, Dolly certainly says she was saved by her brother. She jumped in and got something round her neck and couldn't get out. There was so much rubbish in there, wasn't there.
LS: Yes, I mean, two chaps my age, one called Les Parsley and another one Harry Rhode (Rose?) they was both dragged out that river, they fell in it, in their time, you know.
RS: We know Dolly very well.
JR: Yes. So, tell me about the Angel then...what do you remember it being like?
LS: Well, it wasn't a pub in my day. It had been closed down and it looked a bit rough and there was several families used to live in there: the Morrises, and Collins and there was another family that lived in there and you know, there seemed to be quite a few people living in it and there wasn't much at the back of it, it was just a rough old bit of ground, not a garden or anything like that in them days. Jim Morris, he lived there and Reg Collins and round the back was the Elys and the Ives, they lived in another couple of houses at the back there. There was a woman we used to call Larley Cole...Japper Cole and......
JR: Did she live in the Angel?
LS: No, but she lived at the back and would be coming on to that bit in City Street. It was a biggish house, it had, well to look at it today, you'd say a garage, but it must have been for a horse and cart in them days. Taylors, they lived down there in that area - they had a big old cellar, used to have a big old cellar top, quite a big top, must have been at least 6 feet square, this cellar top, all wood and they used to have an old gramophone, the one with the horn on, you know, they had these old records of Sandy Powell at the North Pole and all that sort of thing and as kids we used to go round there and listen to that because it was a bit of a novelty in them days for someone to even have a gramophone! And there was one or two characters down there - you know the Dunnages, they used to call this couple Ginny and Wowa Dunnage and they used to get drunk separately on a Saturday and get home and have quarrels and get.....the old lady used to get chucked out on the street, you know, all that sort of thing went on down there, you know.
JR: It was lively then, to say the least!
LS: Yes. And November fifth we used to have a big bonfire out on the back there, where apparently a lot of houses must have been, but they were cleared and people used to bring these old hard mattresses out. They really were hard, straw mattresses and they used to burn a lot of them, you know, I suppose they were having a change over because the beds used to be metal framed with laths across and then there were two big straw mattresses.
JR: Yes, yes.
LS: Dyes used to live down there, you know, Dyes, they had the old yard down there, but they used to live in quite a reasonable sort of house compared to the others and had a little cherry tree in their bit of garden as you might call it.
JR: Yes, well, the picture of them in the museum, standing next to their front door, you can see the railings and the tree.
LS: That's it, cherry tree, yes.
JR: That looked quite nice really.
LS: The Ansells lived next door to them; there was another family there, they must have been some connection with the Dyes - an oldish boy, but I don't know really what we used to call him - his grand daughter what lived with him, we used to call her Ethel Sell - I don't know what the old boy's name was, but he was definitely some relation to the Dyes, you know, then there was the Perrys and then there was my two aunts, Bunyans and Welsh and then there was a family named Clarks and this woman over here what lives at the back of us now, Irving, Ivan? well her married name's Ivan, but one of her grandmothers, both her grandmothers lived there, down there in them houses...Lawrences, that's it!....was the other one.
JR: You mentioned just now, Ethel Sell....it must be the same person I'm going to record tomorrow, I think....now lives at Hertford Heath.
LS: Yes, she worked for Youngs the bakers.
JR: Oh, did she.
LS: Down....when they had a shop down near Maidenhead Yard - just on the corner there....Harry Young, he used to make a lovely - quite a lovely roll - biggish roll for ½d, you got a meal out of that!
JR: Oh, so he was popular!
LS: Yes, unusual roll, it wasn't quite like Wrens....a little bit different to Wrens.
JR: Did you say that you thought Ethel was a relation of the Dyes?
LS: Yes, I've got a feeling there was some connection there. She must be getting on though, mustn't she?
JR: Yes, I think so.
LS: If she remembers me, my nickname's Bubbles, she'd very likely know Bubbles. She wouldn't know Les, lot of my relations wouldn't know Les, they only know Bubbles.
JR: Bubbles Sullivan, right.
LS: Well, very likely she would say Bubbles Barbrook, perhaps.
JR: Oh!
LS: That's how it goes, with the families.........
JR: Well, I'll try all the names....see which one she...
RS: They still call him Barbrook - Bubbles - but I mustn' call him that!
JR: Well, obviously, you know better!
LS: I got that nickname when I lived over Ware, you know. Sitting there with the old ½d pipe and the old soapy water blowing bubbles - that's how I got that nickname.
RS: His neices and nephews used to call him that·
JR: Yes. Now we heard from Dolly about one or two people, one was Larley Cole....did she do anything in particular, was she selling anything?
LS No, no, she was a bit of a character though you know, she used to like a little drop of beer like. She was a very hard working woman, though she hadn't got nothing to show for it.
JR: What did she do, then?
LS: Well, I mean, in them days they used to have these old - well when they moved away from Bircherley Court area and went up Hertingfordbury they used to have those old flock mattresses and I've known that woman to fetch it all out and wash the cover, you know, and put it all back, you know. Things that took a lot of time; and used to scrub the old tables in them days, when they lived down the old Bircherley Court area, they used to whiten the old steps and blacklead the old stoves, if they'd got stoves in there. We used to use newspaper for tablecloths as well as toilet paper.
JR: Yes, yes. So everyone did their best to keep as clean as they could.
LS: Oh, yes, yes, people tried to be clean but the things weren't there for them. We used to get the men come out stripped to the waist and washed under the old tap outside. they tried to keep themselves clean as they could, but you know it wasn't......
JR: Wasn't easy!
LS: No. A lot of bugs in them places.
JR: Really.
LS: Oh, yes, lots of bugs.
JR: Yes, so, how did you treat, how did you cope with the bugs?
LS: Well, when they got really bad, sometimes they'd get people in to fumigate them....somebody in, used to get out the house and they used to seal the doors up as much as they could and burn these sulphur tablets, you know. Then they reckoned you could walk in, and almost shovel them up afterwards.
JR: They lived in the woodwork, did they?
LS: Well mostly where there was any plaster.
JR: Plaster.
LS: They seemed to like plaster, you know, but they would bite you and they used to be full of blood and if you squashed them they would smell like something terrible.
JR: How big were they, about ladybird size?
LS: I should say a little bigger than a ladybird.
JR: Right. Oh, were they black or....
LS: Well, sort of reddy brown, more of a dark - sort of on the dark side -a bit of red in 'em but a lot of brown....we even had them out when we was in Egypt, in the desert, they had 'em out there.
JR: Yes, they're not just....they just don't live in Bircherley Green!
LS: No, funny how they used to come in the desert from nowhere, sort of thing!
JR: After blood, I suppose.
LS: Used to get in the old wooden seats where we used to have in the cinema and places like that and men who was in plaster, they used to get in the plaster.
JR: Oh, yes, oh.........
LS: Horrible old things, you know
JR: What about mice, were there any mice around?
LS: Well, there were rats and mice about, 'cos Garratts had a warehouse full of grain, didn't they, on the end there where the old barges used to come up. You had rats and mice, you had a job to keep them down, you know.
JR: I know that Jim caught one in his hand one night, it came out of the plaster - a hole in the plaster - he just grabbed it and caught it.
LS: Well, I mean, they still get them today - even down Macs the brewery when I worked down there they'd catch mice and rats down there. It's amazing where they come from, you know.
JR: Well, if there's a supply of food somewhere, then they're there. What about - there's a chap that Dolly mentioned called Pup Pincher - do you remember him at all?
LS: No, that don't ring a bell with me.
JR: He used to, apparently, have a tray round his neck, a tray of things to sell.
LS: No, you used to get the Muffin Man come down there and blokes used to come down there selling winkles and that sort of thing either with a barrow, or carry them, and of course the old milkmen in them days - it used to be all little carts with cans of milk and you used to go out and get half a pint - they used to dip it in the big can and tip it into your jug, you know.
JR: Yes, yes, there were no bottles then.
LS: Not, not in them days, it must have been a bit later on. While I was at school I remember when I was up Abel Smith School there was, we was having milk in bottles there for the school children - they was about half of a pint, you know. that was another luxury, you know.....take your ½d to get your bottle of milk.
RS: There used to be Mr. Fowler with his three wheeled.....
LS: Oh yeah, old........
RS: With his newspapers............there used to be a man walked from Hertford to Hertford Heath, used to be the postman, and the children always used to run after him, and say "What's the time Mr............" I forgot what they called him but they always used to ask him the time.
JR: Did he deliver letters in Hertford Heath, then?
RS: No, I don't think he delivered, he just used to have to come and empty the boxes you know.
LS: Then when you talking about Boncey Ilott, now his old Dad had a beard and he used to spend a lot of time round by the White Hart. He used to look after the old motor cars.....voluntary like, and hoping he'd get a tip when they'd come and pick them up, you know.....and he used to smoke one of those little clay pipes and.....a lot of people used to smoke them....½d pipes....put a bit a baccy in there and have a smoke.
JR: Well, you find a lot of them in the gardens, don't you, at least I do in mine......it was allotments where I live.
RS: Because the White Hart at one time, you used to be able to go through there, there used to be some monkeys in a cage.
JR: Down that yard?
LS: Down that yard, yeah.
JR: So behind the Regent Cinema, wasn't it, more or less?
LS: Yeah, yeah, 'cos it's shut off now but it used to be always open and you used to walk through there. Couldn't have been a right of way, but it was certainly used in that way, but now it's shut off.
JR: Yes, I heard about Boncey Ilott, because apparently he and his son were both called Boncey, weren't they?
RS: Yes.
JR: Both of them were called Boncey - the old Boncey and young Boncey.
LS: Well, I know the younger one was Boncey, but the old man - he used to look like Father Christmas with his old beard and that, you know. Sometimes he'd talk to you and sometimes he'd chase you off with the old stick, you know.
JR: Yes. What about.....did you know a Mr. Watts who kept......
LS: Yes, Mr. Watts - poor old - what do you call him......Puggy Watts - he - I - after the houses were pulled down, I remember him being a night watchman for the Gas Company.....and he used to be down there.....he used to have this old.....chunks of tobaco and he used to cut off a little chunk and chew it, not smoke it, chew it. And he used to wear a little old cap and he was...hadn't got a lot of hair on his head and when he was finished he used to spit it into his cap and put his cap on and he'd nip round to the old Lion's Head and have a pint, come back and......'cos they all liked their drink in them days - you know, the old people. Part of life you know, because it was, well I can remember when it was only 4d a pint you know.
JR: His daughter is still alive, Ruby.
LS: Ruby up there, yes.
JR: She's about 94 I think.
LS: Yes, she lives along a Chelmsford Road.
JR: She's done some tapes for us.
LS: She's not long lost her eldest son - George. He was in the TA and so was the one a little bit younger - Charlie - he was in it as well.
JR: Where did you live before you lived here, was it Sele Road?
LS: No, we lived in Campfield Road.
JR: Campfield. When did you move here?
LS: Just over 7 years, 7 years this month on the 18th, when these were new. Mr. Ruffles helped us get this place, 'cos I'd got arthritis bad and I, since, now I've had l knee done and l hip done
RS: Couldn't get up the stairs now if we had to.
LS: Quite a nice man, Mr. Ruffles, isn't he?
JR: Oh, yes of course! (laughter)
LS: Even if he is a Conservative, he's the only Conservative I've ever voted for. I've always voted Labour, but he's such a nice man! And when it come to the local elections, I've always voted for him!
JR: Right, he'll be pleased to hear that.
RS: Don't matter where he is, he always seems to acknowledge us, if he's in his car, he toots.
JR: Yes, yes.
RS: I've even seen him on his motorbike.
LS: Everyone has their own idea of politics, but I often wonder why some people are Conservative when, to me, they should be Labour, you know.
JR: Yes. So you (Rose) came down from Hertford Heath...
RS: When we got married.
JR: Yes. Did you come into the town to shop or.......so you knew the area in Railway Street that Les is talking about?
LS: But she was actually born down the Folly wasn't you, born down Thornton Street.
RS: I was only born down there. My mum went down there to have me.
LS: 'Cos her grandmother was living there.
RS: Then we went back to Hertford Heath. My grandmother used to live...d'you know down Thornton Street, the house on the corner - that's where I was born. Then we went back to Hertford Heath and then I stopped there until we got married.
JR: But you came down into the town quite a lot?
RS: Yes, used to come down during the school dinner times to get the shopping and that and go back home, back to school.
JR: There was a good 'bus service, was there....or did you walk?
RS: Used to walk because there was 8 of us and as I said, there wasn't a lot of money.
LS: She was telling me the other day, she used to come down in her school dinner hour, or 2 hours we used to have in them days, to do a bit of shopping for her mother.
RS: I'm the oldest of 8; he's the youngest of 16!
JR: Yes, that's funny, isn't it!
RS: I think years ago there was big families then, weren't there.
JR: Oh, yes, yes.
LS: That one you was talking about - Shrimpy Capel - I think there was 16 of them, you know, I'm sure there must have been. Quite a lot of girls.
RS: That's an old one of Hertford, you can see where the market was and they all wore hats then, didn't they.
JR: Yes, I like that one, I think that's a very atmospheric kind of photograph, that just typifies what was going on.
RS: I think that is my dad, you know....when I got this photo out and then I looked at that - more so when I look at this, that it is him
JR: So this photograph of the market was 1933 and the nearest man who's carrying a basket and a bag is your father.
LS & RS: Well, we think it is, when you look at that.
JR: Yes, I think so. And what was his name
RS: Porter, Frederick Porter.
JR: Frederick Porter and that's your brother with him, what's his name?
RS: Albert.
JR: Albert Porter, right....looks very proud of his bike.
RS: Yes! They worked together in the nurseries at Hoddesdon - Arnotts, I think is was called and they used to come home lunch time. Well, people, when they come and I show them that, I say I think it is my dad and they say "oh, yes!"
JR: It almost looks as if he'd got the same clothes on.
RS: It does, yes.
JR: So, he's the nearest man, walking towards the camera.
LS: He used to dress more or less the same, didn't he, the old cap.
JR: You don't recognise anyone else here, then?
RS: No, no. When it was in the window (of the Museum), it was like that, you know. When you look through a magnifying glass, you can't see no more than what you can really on that.
JR: No, it's a nice keepsake, though, isn't it.
LS: Did anyone ever mention about the old road sweepers - there was old Mr. Welsh he'd lost his leg in the first world war and used to have a little old hand cart and go round sweeping the roads - up Queens Road and places like that.
JR: Well, I think that Dolly's father was...
LS: Yes, he would have worked for the council, yes. But they used to sack them once a year you know, 'cos they didn't want them to claim pension.
JR: Really.......
LS: So they used to start them on a Monday morning and when they'd been there a year, they used to sack them on the Friday night and reinstate them again on the Monday so they could never say they'd done more that one year's work for them until the union came along and they couldn't do that.
RS: Now, that's a camera photo.
JR: Ah, right, so where was this one taken?
RS: Hertford Heath where I told you I lived
JR: So, who's on this one then....this is you here is it , the oldest one?
LS: Her sister lives over the road here.
RS: What's just gone out.
LS: But these three are all dead and the mother in law
RS: That one was taken after that one
JR: There's three more besides them.
JR: So this wasn't photocopied, this was......
RS: No, camera.
JR: Yes, I see, oh, it's good, isn't it. So, who's this sister again - what's her name?
RS: Gwen Sapstead.
JR: Must write this down, because we might need some of these names, sometime. So, your mum's at the back, holding........
RS: Well, we never know whether that's me brother or sister Patricia.
JR: And this is gran, isn't it?
RS: John Albert, me.
JR: That's all the Porters.
RS: That was took down the side, before the village hall was built.
JR: What number was that, do you remember, your house?
RS: I don't know whether it was 27. Me brother gave me this, but he'd had it taken off this litle one, and that was over Ware for 8d.
JR: Oh, I see.
RS: Copy, you know.
JR: That's right, that's where we go, to Ware for our copies. They are excellent, I think.
LS: Are you a Hertford person?
JR: No! I've had to learn it all.
LS: Like Mr. Green, he only come here in '33
JR: Yes, he was younger though, when he came.
LS: He knows more about Hertford than half the people who were born here!
JR: Well, I think when you consciously go and learn something, you want to learn it and you take more trouble to remember it.
LS: He was always a nice man as a school teacher, you know.
RS: He came up here with his film to the Dell, didn't he and Mr. Ruffles came up with him.
JR: I came up as well, you didn't obviously know me then but Len came up one evening and I recorded Len on a machine - I recorded his words and transcribed them, so we've got that.
RS: We went over there, didn't we, 'cos when he sat down, Mr. Ruffles was pointing out more.
LS: Must be, got to be 85 now, poor old Len.
JR: He is actually able to walk into the town and he usually gets a taxi back. But I've been taking him to the Record Office in my car to do some research as it's a long trek up there for him.
RS: 'cos what Mr. Ruffles does, since the road and that was done, didn't he, you know, that Gascoyne Way....
LS: .....more that area than telling you about.....
RS: ....but Mr. Green's goes right the way back, don't they.
JR: Yes, well he got the slides of Cyril Stalley.
LS: Yes, Mr. Stalley.
JR: They used to go round together and he had them all when Cyril died.
LS: Somebody was telling me about the.....I lived up the gaol and I never took any notice of it, but somebody was saying to me if you look at the....stand in the road that's where the gaol is and look at the shops over the other side of the road, there's a window built in the roof of one of them houses and they said that's where the old gaoler used to live and they had that window put in so he could look over the gaol and see what was going on.
JR: Still there.
LS: Yes, it is, he took me up there one evening just to see and yet I lived up there and never took a bit of notice of it.
JR: So, how about Cliff North, then, how did you know him?
LS: Well, partly because and one of my sister in laws was two sisters, the Ives’s what lived down in Maidenhead Yard: all girls, weren't they, must have been about 7 girls and they was 2 of the sisters, like. But as I say, old Cliff lived in the front there and I think he was brought up by Mrs. North - I think she must have took in orphans or what they were - 'cos she had another chap and he was a Scotch chap and he was brought up with him, wasn't he - old Jock.
RS: He made our wedding cake.
JR: Did he?
LS: Yes, mind you, it wasn't very big. We got married in December l944 and my mother managed to scrape up bits and pieces and we had a little wedding cake.
JR: Cliff was in catering, then.
LS: Yes, he worked for the bakers before the war.
JR: Youngs?
LS: I don't know if he went back after the war but must have been in that line, you know.
JR: Yes, he said he started at Youngs - he went on somewhere else after that but if it was Wren's, I don't know.
LS: Could have been.
RS: His wife and her sister used to work at the Mayflower, years and years ago when they used to go out catering, didn't they. Mayflower used to do a lot of catering, outside catering. Because Bob, his brother used to be the paper man about the town.
LS: Bob, and Japper Cole and Ernie Wolf. A lot of families all originated from the old Bircherley Green area, you know.
JR: Yes, now the other (I'm keeping my eye on this tape) the other yard, you mentioned, Maidenhead Yard and we talked about that a little bit because some of those houses you said they were made into two....sorry, they made two houses into one, to make them bigger. What about....there was a Dolphin Yard, wasn't there, down Maidenhead Street?
LS: Yes, yes, there was some houses down there, but I don't know a lot about that. The only family I knew that lived down there was the Laws - one family lived down there - they had a son about the same age as me, I don't know what happened to him.
JR: Any other yards, you remember? I'm particularly interested in the yards.
LS: Well, there was one or two up St. Andrew Street.
Tape 2
But the chap over the road, old Joe Quince - he had an uncle who lived up St. Andrew Street, up one of them yards there and I'm pretty sure he was the Pearly King at one time.
Transcribers Note: The pearly King was Sidney Walter Taylor who lived on Port Hill as far as we are aware he was the only one. The Taylor family did keep vehicles in St Andrews Street which may be the confusion.
JR: The uncle was.....?
LS: He used to keep snakes and a couple of monkeys up the yard.
JR: It wasn't Fitkin, was it?
LS: It could have been.
JR: Because there was a chap up there had a daughter called Dolly Fitkin, who kept monkeys, I thought it was Pavitts Yard.
LS: That'll where it'll be.
JR: Joe Quince I've been told about already.
LS: Just across the road, here.
JR: So, what number is he at, perhaps I should go and see him!
LS: I thinks it's 4l.
JR: The Dell. OK. I tell you who told me about Joe Quince - it was actually Dick Darton - he used to live down Pavitts Yard...did you ever know Dick?
LS: They went to live up Sele Road, that Dartons?
JR: Yes. Now, Maidenhead Yard, was that the same kind of yard as the one you lived in - it had the houses facing.......
LS: Well, no, I'd say you went in the yard and there was some houses up there - they were better, they were brick houses and I know they'd been knocked two into one, the Ives’s lived there and another family by the name of Hart....I know they lived up......
JR: Oh, yes, I heard of the Harts of Maidenhead Yard. The museum has got some of the pictures of Maidenhead Yard labelled at St. Nicholas Yard, or St. Nicholas Lane - did you hear it called that ever?
LS: No.
JR: What about the yards in Bircherley Green?
LS: Well, I don't know about yards, there was bit and pieces around there - nothing seemed to be far from the main road, you know, Green Street and Bircherley Street, the rest of it seemed to be all bits and pieces.
JR: Little nooks and crannies.
LS: Yes, yes, nothing sort of....well, two or three houses up one little bit and another house sticking out somewhere else and that sort of thing - there were no what you might call a proper yard.
JR: No big yards.
LS: Might have been years ago, 'cos in the centre there must have been a lot of buildings there that just vanished.
JR: They cleared them, yes.
LS: 'Cos when we was children we used to play on there and there were one or two little bits of brick foundation in odd places but it was never cleared up properly. As I say, my mother must have been born down there, you know.
JR: Did you ever hear of a place off Old Cross called Tinder Box Alley.
LS: Well, I don't know what the place was called, but you used to go back of the library and there used to be a little place round there, I used to go there, there used to be two houses round there and I'm trying to think of the woman who lived in one, because they was to do with the Salvation Army. But, a very nice woman, but I just can't think of her name, but I only remember the two houses being round there....whether there'd been more previously, before McMullens expanded a bit.
JR: That was behind the library, was it?
LS: Yes, you used to sort of go down that, as you looking at the library from Old Cross, used to go on the right hand side on that road and then turn off somewhere where that...McMullens've got it as a sort of an office - I think years ago used to be a dentist there.
JR: Yes, that's right, Mr. Hoare.
LS: Yes, and you used to turn round there somewhere and these houses were at the back - couldn't be seen, they was right...
JR: Tucked behind, yes. There were so many little courts, alleys and yards and in fact there are not many left now.
LS: No, no if the old people come back they wouldn't know their way around the town.
JR: They wouldn't, would they, no, I mean that was before they built the council estates - most of the people from the courts and yards were then sent off, weren't they.
LS: Yes, some come up here to Horns Mill - these houses over there on that estate (Pearsons), they was built first, some come into there and then the others mostly finished up on the Hertingfordbury Estate up there.
JR: 'Cos, Sele Road was, I think, the first road to be built, wasn't it?
LS: Oh, yes, that was. I can remember that as a child, you know, them houses must be getting on a bit.
JR: So, Sele Road, then Horns Mill...
LS: No, after Sele Road, I believe they built some houses up Gallows Hill. Then, like, Horns Mill and Hertingfordbury before they went up to Sele (Farm).
JR: Last of all, after the war, wasn't it, Sele. Do you think the people were quite happy to leave the centre of town and live on the outskirts?
LS: A lot of them were grateful for the conditions, having electric light and gas and having a bath. Maybe they wouldn't be quite so pleased having to walk to the town, but think most of them were used to walking, so it wouldn't be too much of an effort, like.
JR: In these yards, like this one here (Haydens Court), was there quite a good sense of community and neighbourliness?
LS: I think so. Apart from when somebody got drunk, might be a bit of a nuisence, but apart from that when everyone was sober, they was quite happy!
RS: I remember when we used to have the old oil lamps, before the gas come in.
LS: People used to muck in more, in them days...when somebody died, you know, women go in and wash him down and lay him out, or if a woman had a baby, somebody'd do the washing and somebody else'd do the cooking. They helped one another.
JR: Looked after the children, I suppose.
LS: Yes, people used to muck in more, but now you can live next door to somebody and not know who they are, can't you.
JR: Well, you don't need your neighbours as much. You've got all your services in the house, haven't you.
RS: I don't think the young ones of today like us old 'uns - I mean as soon as you come in, I said, "do you want a cup of tea?" but the young ones don't do it like that. I mean we used to go to my mum's and the kettle was always put on as soon as we got there, don't matter if it was relations or neighbours.
JR: It's not just an English habit, it's all over the place, because whenever I've been to a foreign country I've always found I had the same treatment, there's always concern for offering refreshment immediately you get to somebody's house. Good idea, though, isn't it!
Pause.
JR: Yes, I do mean her - do you know about her? (Miss Hoad).
LS: Well, I remember her living down Villiers Street. She used to have rough curtains up the wall and she always used to wear these woolly things wrapped round her legs and when she kept this little sweetshop up St. andrew Street, she never seemed to do a lot of trade but she always used to use those old fashioned sugar tongs to pick the sweets up. And then there was another man that used to be about the town; used to wear gaiters, had a little beard and always wore a cap. I don't know what they used to call him, but he was another character that seemed to be always jotting about.
JR: Did he work somewhere?
LS: Well, I never know him to do, as far as I know, working. Maybe he was someone's son as might have left him a few shillings, 'cos he was always reasonably well dressed and he always had his gaiters on, he wasn't scruffy. A very quiet sort of a man, maybe that's why I don't know his name.
RS: He wasn't the old man who came down from Bengeo, was he, what tried to get on the bus with his barrow, once?
LS: No, not him. Then there was another chap in the town, a man called Pecker Farrah (Farrow). He was a bit of a character, very clever man with ropes and that.
JR: Also played the drums?
LS: I don't know about that, but he always used to walk about with a sheath knife and high up boots and looked a proper old backwoodsman, you would more imagine him being out in Canada than you would in Hertford. But he certainly knew what he was doing with ropes 'cos McMullen used to employ him to splice their ropes, and that, for them. I think that's how he earned a living, by working for himself as you might say. He must have lived somewhere up St. Andrew Street. He always seemed to be in that area when we saw him.
JR: I think he did live in Pavitts Yard or the yard near Ramseys fish shop (Ricks). I'll have to check up on that one. Now, when you were eleven, you went to the Cowper School....what was your first school?
LS: Well, first off in Ware, I went to Ware St. Mary's. Then moved on to Rye House and went to school there for a little while. When we first come to Hertford I went to Abel Smith, then from there to Cowper School.
JR: And you saw Len Green when he was a young teacher?
LS: The first job I ever had was errand boy at Russells the chemist on Old Cross, which had been before that called Durrants.
JR: So, did you deliver things on a trade bike?
LS: Yes, we used to start about 9 in the morning and should have finished at 5 or 6 but most of it was later than that because people used to bring prescriptions in for medicines to be delivered and you wasn't finished with your work until you'd finished delivering.
RS: We used to have to walk from Hertford Heath to Hertford for the cookery and the girls used to go to Longmore and the boys used to go to where you went.
JR: Cowper School. Was that Mr. Sharp there?
LS: There was a Mr. Sharp teaching woodwork at Longmores. We had a Mr. Gray and it was down at the other little Greencoat School, very small, very small.
JR: Yes, next door. So what did you do after Russells then?
LS: I went to McMullens straight to the brewery and I was there when the war broke out. I joined the TA in April '39 and we went to camp. I mainly joined the TA because I'd never had a holiday and it was a way of getting a holiday and of course when we come back it wasn't long before the war broke out and we had a long holiday!
RS: When he joined up, he wasn't really old enough.
LS: No, I was only really 16 when war broke out - I was 17 on 16th Sept. but I had to put me age on a year, like to get into the TA.
JR: So how did you lose your arm?
LS: I lost that working on a minefield in Egypt, place called Talicabia, big depot. I done me fighting in Italy and we took it in turns and swapping over and coming back to Egypt for a few weeks, you know, and while you were there you get a week's holiday over in Cairo or Alexandria or some used to go to another little small place but....we was digging up this minefield in this big depot at Talicabia and we had three accidents, the first one....'cos we had some Indians working with us, an Indian lost an eye, then I lost me hand and the other accident while I was in Hospital, a chap got hit in the head and he only lived 36 hours. Very touchy stuff, it was Egyption stuff and it didn't need a lot of playing about with.
JR: No. So, how much did you lose?
LS: Well, in the first place they took it off through the wrist. Wasn't blown off, it was shattered, you know. But, 'cos it made the artificial arm long, and then I had chilblains because when you've got both bits off, the other bone sticks out nearly as bad as this one. And these chilblains....because the arm, hand was made to fit the stump which meant it was bigger , then smaller, then bigger again, and to get it through the smaller I rubbed the chilblain raw. And I went up to Roehampton and asked them if there was anything they could do and they didn't seem to have much of an idea what to do, then I suggested "what about taking it back a few more inches?" and they was a bit surprised I volunteered to and so we had a little bit more off, made a better job of it.
JR: Are you right handed?
LS: Yes, but there was a distinction about it, there was a distinction between right and left hand, it didn't matter whether you was right or left handed, but if you lost your left hand it wasn't valued as, and that was only valued at 50% of a disability pension, which in l945 was still the same as it was in 1920, it was £2 for a private soldier, so I finished up with £l a week.
JR: Well, that's terrible, I know it's ...it would be easier, wouldn't it if you were right handed if you lost the left hand, but that doesn't come into it as far as I'm concerned.
LS: They get a lot more now, they have evened it up now, it doesn't matter if it's.....
JR: Doesn't matter now....?
LS: No, because they've come to the idea that 2 hands work together, so....
JR: They do.
LS: ....whichever one it was it's as bad as the other one. But it wasn't then, they had funny ideas, took all the measurements, all the inches for the pension.
RS: What he's just found out lately, he's got a leg inch and a half shorter than the other.
LS: Well, I've had a knee replacement and I've had a hip replacement, so I don't know whether I lost it on the hip or down the knee...very likely going down the knee.
JR: Yes, it wasn't like it when you were little, then?
LS: No, but I didn't know 'til I had this medical - I have had difficulty walking, I'd get backache soon when I walk any distance and 'course that must be what the reason is, it's throwing, not getting the weight even and it's throwing me back up.
JR: The muscles are working differently, aren't they.
RS: This is why we put in for ground floor place. At the time they was building these, we didn't know, I mean we lived up here for l5 years, up Cecil Road, didn't we before we went - we changed with a family.
LS: Well, all but one had left home by then because we had 5 children and we'd only got one then and well, we didn't want a 3 bedroom house really and this family, they'd got 2 boys and we swapped houses.
RS: Then we'd got steps there to get up and down and he said "before long you'll have to push me in the wheelchair." I said, "fair enough, I can push you but I won't be able to get you down the steps".
LS: There was all steps, step in the gate and down the path.
RS: And I was talking to Mr. Ruffles, and I said we was thinking about putting into somewhere on the ground level and he said "as soon as you make up your mind" he said, "come and see me", And then it went from there, you know. Don't think we was all that keen about coming back up here at first, was we?
LS: No, not at first but. We spent a lot of years, specially of our married life up here. I did live up here as a boy in the old council houses, but then when we got married we had a son and he was ayear old when we come down on the bottom road on one of McMullens houses. Then we got a council house and when we got too big a family we moved up here. When we lost the family through 'em getting married, we went into a smaller one.
JR: Yes, that's what normally happens. So, McMullens had some houses on Horns Mill, did they, cottages?
LS: Oh, yes, McMullens had houses almost everywhere. They had them up Bullocks Lane and Horns Mill Road.
RS: You know where the off licence is in Horns Mill Road, well, that door was our front room.
LS: Yes, my eldest daughter was born in the part where that shop is, 'cos she was born downstairs, and that would be part of that shop now.
RS: They all belonged to Macs, still do, the other two.
LS: Just had her 47th birthday.
JR: Yes, yes, well, thank you very much, that was super!