Interviewed by Peter Ruffles (PR)
Date: 04/06/1993
Transcribed by Eve Sangster (updated by Susie Hunt, 2015)
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no O 1993.5
Interviewee: H. Munns (HM) and K Smith (KS)
Date: 4th June 1993
Venue: 13 Southfield Road, Hoddesdon
Interviewers: Peter Ruffles (PR)
Transcriber: Eve Sangster (updated by Susie Hunt, 2015)
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
Herbert Munns was Deputy head of St. Andrews School 1948 to 1977
Kathleen Smith was teacher at St. Andrews School 1958 to 1978
Peter Ruffles was a pupil at St. Andrews School.
PR: It is the 4th of June. A very warm June afternoon, all of a sudden, and we are in the home of Pearl and Bert Munns, 13 Southfield Road, Hoddesdon, in the company of Miss Kathleen Smith - known as Miss Kay Smith. There's a story about that, isn't there - why you are Kay, which we can come to later - and we are going to talk about our memories - and I can join in a little bit as a former pupil - of St. Andrews School, Hertford. Now Mr Munns, I can remember, while I was at the school, arriving as the first male member of staff, probably in the history of the school.
HM: Yes I was, actually the first male member of staff and a curiosity as far as the infants were concerned.
PR: Yes, I think I wasn't curious because I was just a bit older than an infant.
HM: Yes, yes, you were a bit above that.
PR: Yes, so I didn’t hold your hand and trail you round the playground.
HM: No, they just followed me round and round the playground to see what this strange creature was.
PR: Now what year was that, roughly?
HM: 1948.
PR: And where had you been before?
HM: Well before that it was really the war before that really, I did a little bit for an insurance company… Oh yes I went to Watton-at-Stone school as a supernumerary and then of course I went on to training college, I'm missing a whole lot out.
PR: Yes, yes! So that got you finished with the war in '45?
HM: 46.
PR: Two years training?
HM: Yes, emergency training.
PR: Then Watton-at-Stone?
HM: Watton-at-Stone previous to the emergency training.
PR: And St Andrews until you retired?
HM: Yes, which was 1977
PR: So St Andrews got plenty of service from Mr Munns. Miss Smith of course, goes back a little earlier with her knowledge of St Andrews School and then had time away. When did you first know St Andrews?
KS: I went to St Andrews on School Practice from training college so that must have been about 1936 and after I qualified there was a job going there so Miss Turnbull asked if I would take it, so when I came out of college I went there to start with.
PR: So you were a full time employee as it were, early qualified. How long did you stay, you went to Essenden didn't you?
KS: No, from there I went to Hatfield. At St Audreys. I stayed there and then came back to St Andrews. Is that right?
HM: Yes, sounds right to me.
KS: It was Miss Turnbull to start off with when I came straight out of college, it was Miss Turnbull, who was the headmistress. This time it was Miss Smith.
PR: Miss Turnbull retired in 1940 and so how long do you think you were there on the first run?
KS: Erm, two or three years I should think, I can't really remember.
PR: Was the school then erm, 11+ - 11 to? Had people stay longer before they went up or did they leave at 11 like they do now?
KS: No they must have yes.
HM: They left at 11 when I was there.
KS: There was Miss Turnbull in the top; then there was a curtain between the next long room and that was Miss Woods and me.
PR: Right, so you shared the…
KS: I was one side of the curtain and she was the other.
PR: We'd better get the geography right for our listeners. Four classrooms, really, which could be divided in one place if need be. There were the two running parallel to the road - that was the top class for me, next to Warehams Lane, then the long room that you were in, with a curtain dividing it. You one side and Miss Woods the other. And then at right angles to that running down Warehams Lane as it were was the next class down when I was at the school.
KS: That was Miss oh dear what was her name? Miss****was the tiny infants wasn't she?
PR: It was Mrs Madle for me but I don't know if Mrs Madle was there until…
KS: Miss Roe!
PR: Oh, Miss Roe. So she would have had the 6 – 7 year olds that sort of thing. And then Miss Hornby would have started.
HM: In Mrs Madle's day we had a class at the Church Hall.
PR: Yes, we overspilled down to the annexe at St Nicholas Hall.
HM: They played for the playground they played in the church yard there because I think it was your sister who went home and said we were allowed to play there as long as we didn't disturb the ladies and gentlemen who were dead.
PR: Oh yes! (laughter) That's right, there was just a little strip you could run on at the side of the graveyard but you couldn't go on to the graves! Oh well, so that's the dates of both of your startings, and you were away. Was St Audreys up to 11 as well or was it?
PR: No, that was a senior school. Yes, because I took the first year seniors there. Then you came back I suppose in 1965 ish something like that?
HM: It was earlier than that because we went to Sele in 1963 and you were here then.
KS: Late '50s yes. And then the curtain had gone. Right. So your classoom in the old school was always that long one that divided.
HM: Always the second one on the road.
PR: And did you always teach the children of that age? The one below the top class?
HM: No I think I had a small lower class as a kind of testing period for my first term
PR: And then got into your specialist area before handing them up. Now the time you came the Head was Miss Smith – we must make sure for listeners that we are talking about the right Miss Smith. Miss H A Smith, Hilda Annie. And that's why you were always Miss K Smith, so that the children knew they referred to the right one.
HM: Later in the school's history we had three Miss Smiths! I've forgotten the other one's name.
KS: A? Was it A Smith? Erm, wasn't she that Australian?
PR: Can we just talk about the Hicks for a moment. You knew, well it’s the both of them. Miss Turnbull and Miss Smith and how, what were they like? What was Miss Turnbull like as a Head?
KS: Well (long lapse) I thought she was a rather old fashioned, yes an old fashioned Head.
PR: Yes, She was appointed in Victorian times! 1899!
KS: Yes yes, and erm
PR: Strict?
KS: Oh yes very strict and one of the things, perhaps this very, she had a nephew, who was a parson wasn't he? I always remember once when we had er you know the morning prayers in that long room, he came to take it and er you know we had these big fires and there was a mantelpiece and I had a box for nature you know on the top and there was a moth caterpillar in it and during the service that he was taking this thing came out! It rustled in the box and she told me off afterwards, because that shouldn't have happened while he was taking the service!
PR: He was a pupil at the school in earlier years. And she'd been Head of the infants and then appointed Head of the whole school and so you copped her in her last few years. Just the last little bit.
KS: Yes she wasn't very keen when I went to Hatfield.
PR: Having invited you there she didn’t think it was quite the thing. I think there was another lady who left her and went to Hatfield and she wasn't very keen. Were the links with the church very strong in those days?
KS: I think we had a harmonium then. I remember them playing it. We didn't have a piano.
PR: And that would've been in the long room? Where the piano was?
KS: Yes. I always remember that.
PR: And what about Miss Hilda Annie as a Head? I've got my own views (laughter)
KS: I must say she could be very nice indeed but she was inclined to be moody. That was her…
HM: We used to confer early morning when we saw her come in. (laughter) She rather liked to be kind of mother figure to the school; The school celebrated her birthday every year and she made sure that I kept the children up to it when her birthday was approaching!
PR: Yes, I found her, as a pupil very difficult. I can remember being quite pleased to move away because we had this little disadvantage in our family that she lodged with my grandmother, when she first came and it meant, if we were naughty, not only did we get what we should have got in school but extra overdose. Lots of stories to tell about that but I won't take your tape up. But she must have been a good Head in lots of ways because the school, under her leadership, did flourish didn't it?
HM: Oh yes and er I think the standard of education was quite high
PR: And the clients were no better really we were not in the posh end of town was it? We had quite er…
KS: Oh no they all came from Hertingfordbury estate some of them.
HM: She kept quite a control for example the school uniform while she was the Head, school uniform was worn. And she managed that without er – didn't you find that so? And but later…
PR: She must have introduced the uniform didn't she?
HM: Yes she did
PR: Blue and white with St Andrew cross. Yes, that was a courageous thing to do and…
HM: I'd forgotten that but I remember now when she started it
PR: And things like the music festival ******** Plenty of practicing. East Herts we went up to the Grammar School I think didn't we? To sing and******* exams and we often came out very well on that
HM: Miss Smith and your performance of Joseph and the Multicoloured - yes that was a really good performance
PR: Yes, yes. When I often hear that I think well we…
HM: Did it just as well!
PR: Recorders were…
KS: Recorders, yes,
PR: You had some good players in those days didn't you. You did the playing and we went down the hall.
HM: Old St Nicholas hall. Charades! *********
PR: And everybody was in it weren't they. The Hopkins boys (chatter and laughter) didn't learn very many words but er
KS: Good times!
PR: (clock strikes) Yes and the other thing was looking back on it now she must have been one of the very first to get school journeys.
HM: She was the first. Their journey to Harlech was the very first in the county.
PR: Was it?
HM: Yes
PR: Well that's remarkable isn't it because you can imagine that Abel Smith or later Morgan's Walk when there was more money in the pockets of some of the…
HM: It followed soon after the Coronation because erm, Crimmond was introduced into the Coronation service and she taught the children to sing Crimmond and we performed in Wales whenever we stopped anywhere and sang to the locals.
PR: Oh I see! Well there's a picture!
HM: I have a book that we had to make up of the journey to present to well to show the authorities who was it Miss Beddington, I've still got it if its any interest?
PR: Oh yes love to look at that, yes.
So, full marks to her for lots of things. Tricky to work with sometimes but - now things that have changed what was the merit mark system. We used to have stars
HM: Yes, that she introduced. Four houses Livingston, Stephenson, Scott and Nightingale.
PR: Livingston was blue, Nightingale was yellow, Scott was red and Stephenson was green
HM: Stephenson was always mine. Yours was
KS: I can't remember …...
HM: I think yours was Nightingale I'm not sure – yellow?
KS: Scott I think it was red. We had sports days didn't we and
PR: So we got credits for doing well with your lessons, stars.
HM: Stars, yes, but definitely not purely for lessons, for any other worthwhile activity or
PR: Prize giving. There was a prize giving wasn't there?
HM: Yes and there was a character cup.
PR: Oh yes the character cup! Given to the boy or girl who
HM: Didn't you have it?
PR: Well, yes, I did. I wasn't going to say that! (laughter)
HM: Well, we tried to make sure it was for good character and nothing to do with school work. But when the new Head came he wouldn't, he stopped it. He said it was just a popularity cup which was a pity I thought.
PR: But Miss Smith stayed to take the school up to Sele Farm, didn't she? She was in charge of the leaving of the old buildings and going up there and she got it launched up there, and then passed the thing on. We used to move around the classroom according to the marks we got in the fortnight’s work in the top class. I don't think that happened lower down the school, but I remember she would add up your marks in English and in sums and other subjects as well I think and then you actually moved your desk, didn't you and so Thora Bilton was always at the top with Derek Wisby and Bertie Phipps was a bit lower down and there were one or two others (laughter) *******
HM: I know there were arguments against it but it did prove an incentive and even if you were at the bottom it was nice to be last but one for a change!
PR: Yes, up the league table every now and again!
HM: And also it stopped any nonsense about who sat with who. I mean no business – boys saying I've got to sit next to a girl! That sort of thing**************
PR: I know that from our children's point of view in the winter the closeness to the fire was always quite er
HM: I was going to say when you mention the fire, if you were the teacher you were baking and if you were a pupil at the back you were frozen!
PR: And they were erm, lets remind our listeners they weren't, it wasn't a tortoise stove was it ? An ordinary open
HM: Ordinary big open fire with a large fireguard.
KS: They built it up and it lasted all day
PR: Four of them one in each classroom.
HM: You had a good caretaker didn't you? And his wife*********
KS: We had milk in those days didn't you
PR: Yes, but that was 'orrible! In the infants Miss Hornby used to put the milk on the mantelpiece and you get these little third of a pint things and by the time break came it was horribly warm. There were no school fridges.
HM: Some time after the war when children's things were scarce the marbles were made of clay and the boys found out that if they flicked them into the fire as they passed undetected, they would go off like a rifle shot (laughter) caused me a lot of trouble for some time! Then they got to ask to be excused and if you weren't watching pop it and a quarter of an hour later off it would go!
PR: Now lets think a bit about the buildings still – just the fires were central to everything and early in the morning when we used to get there before 8 you know to – because the bell went a 9 o'clock didn't it and you could get an extra hour's playtime then but the smoke in the winter I always remember winter days you used to come, when they first stoked up there'd be a lot of smoke, right down sometimes on a frosty morning down, no frosty would go straight up wouldn't it, when the air pressure was - and you could run through smoke in the playground particularly for Mrs Madle's classroom. Yes. What were the facilities, then?
There was a tap for washing up your pallets if you had an art lesson.
HM: That was in the porch wasn't it, there wasn't any in the classroom.
PR: So that served everybody didn't it? That sink? All four classrooms. No hot water there was there?
HM & KS: No, No.
PR: And then the toilets.
HM: The toilets were unmentionable!
PR: Yes. Now where do we go for a toilet what was the er remind us of where they were.
HM: Right down the lower end of the playground There's the infants and then there’s the boys and the girls and the staff toilet was round the back. Round the back there somewhere.
PR: And the coke pile down at the ******coal really not coke. No I can mention, no I don't think I ought to mention, its a bit funny when you think of things and you wonder if you say or not. But there was a very very naughty game with that coke pile by the 7 and 8 year old boys. And er it didn't involve running up it but doing something else up it!! (very mirthful laughter!) Berty Phipps held the record.......I think Berty had extra cups of tea in the morning and then (laughter) at half past eight he'd be able to show his particular abilities!! (much laughter) But then the ditch that ran along used to fill up when the closed the mill bridge at nights. You persuaded me to stay after school and help you plant things and clear that ditch. Convolvulus, Morning Glory, and those kind of things. There was a little broken down fence wasn't there to stop the children going into it.
HM: Mr Hatton told me that in the early days down by the ditch was the entrance where the infants first came and the other gate was the gate of glory which was the gate of misery. I don't know if it’s true or not but
PR: There wasn't a way in there but the children didn't use
HM: That was Mr Hatton's he was there as an infant himself I imagine
PR: Then there's three lime trees
HM: And of course they were important item in our famous game – Our shinty. You see you could go round the lime trees something you couldn't do in any other established game or ricochet off the lime trees or cannon off the school wall
PR: Describe to people what, how did you play shinty? What kind of game
HM: Well shinty sticks they were proper sticks intended for it they were rather like walking sticks with a curved handle and we had a semi hard ball didn't we and er then we made goal posts similar to what they have for ice hockey so you'd go round behind the goal or approach it from any angle and er well we had quite a competition between the houses
PR: Inter house matches
HM: We had a little cup for the winning house
KS: I remember Freddie Brambury - great big shin pads he was in goal
HM: Oh yes cricket shin pads
PR: You introduced that because you were really the sports
HM: Yes at that stage but when we got to the bigger school then there were other people who took over the sports.
PR: Had to have over our whistle
KS: We had high jumping there didn't we – I was always rather worried about that on that hard concrete.
HM: Were you there when we went to Hartham for practicing the high jump?
KS: No I don't think I was
HM: Because we went to Hartham once to practice the high jump and that time they were laying the big sewers for Stevenage I think it was Hartham was festooned with darned great sewers and the boys were trying to do the jump in a professional manner and one boy went over head first and hit the head mistress in the knee. She went green and fell down and went green you see and I had to get a taxi to take her back to the school. The children gathered round so I said “Go on go away and play”. And so in the end I got Miss Smith away in a taxi and I turned to look for my children and they'd all disappeared. They were all in the sewers. I had to go along looking in each sewer pulling children out!
PR: Yes I can remember those big pipes!
HM: They were man sized weren't they?
PR: She had a calamity once when we went to Whipsnade soo and she fell, Miss Smith but erm hurt her ankle. I remember this incident. We had to be gentle with her. She did look ill after just a tumble. Looking back these trips seemed to be the more remarkable with hind sight when you're doing them
KS: Yes, yes, and Mr Munns prepared the journey so didn't you and we knew exactly what we were going to do.
PR: Where did you stay then in Harlech?
HM: In Harlech we stayed in a Youth Hostel. ************** Yes we went to hotels. The first ones we went to was in York that was quite successful. They made us very welcome there and that was the best. We went there about three times but the third time it wasn't so good it had changed. We went to Llandudno.
PR: Christchurch?
HM: Christchurch yes and Sandown and Tinemouth
PR: How many children would have been involved in this
HM: Took about 40
PR: So the size of the school then was four classes of about how many pupils? Five because of the one in the annexe.
HM: Yes, well it varied throughout the years I mean at one time in that room I have described we had 45 and the youngest was 6+ and the eldest was 11 in the same class. The 11 year old was the Hopkins girl. And the 6 year old was a bright one, I forget who.
PR: All in the same class. More or less in the same room
HM: But then of course, in a later time we had 30 or even less didn't we? Children in the class.
KS: What do you mean? At the new school? I once had 43.
[end of one side of tape and start of next side]
HM: Well it was 7S or whatever we called it and 7M
KS: Yes, yes that's right yes, Teachers are grumbling today about the er
KS: Oh yes yes
PR: The marking and er. Um you told me the other day that about the arrival of electricity
HM: Yes, well yes. There's not very much to say except that it was gas when I went there and then one glorious morning it was all ready and we ceremoniously switched on the electric light.
PR: One sink, outside toilets, gas light and this is half way into the 20th century in a town centre school not some village school tucked away, so it really was a bit antiquated. No telephone when I first went there. Do you remember the telephone coming?
HM: No I can't remember that.
PR: I can remember it being there in pride of place just inside the door in the top classroom on the top of the cupboard. And that was our link to the outside world.
HM: No I can't remember that coming actually. I can't remember its existence! (laughs) It was a stand up and beg one!
PR: Yes, what do they call it yes. Yes that was. Now events in the school. I remember Miss Turnbull after she retired about what happened in the First World War and the soup kitchens they set up in the playground and things like that but the Coronation 40 years ago that would have been celebrated by St Andrews presumably?
KS: I don't think I was there then was I?
PR: It may have been just, no '53 you might have come a bit after. What other things would we have…?
HM: I can't recall what we did for the Coronation except oh I believe all the school children were shown the film at the County Cinema. Yes I think we had a film show. I expect we did we had balloons I expect and fun and games
PR: I would have been in the top class, just leaving then because I left in '53 to go to the Grammar School. I went a year early with Derek Wisby and Kenny Rose. Who were your troublesome pupils?
HM: Well I was going to say Hopkins. The name Hopkins would … I don't know
PR: They wern't troublesome were they just not very…
HM: Talking about the old school the school that we've been describing I wouldn't say that there were any troublesome pupils, really, but erm at the time I retired in 1977 there were a whole heap of troublesome pupils. It had changed completely in my life in the school.
PR: So, in the rough old days when some of them
HM: The rough old days were the better days
PR: There was more hardship and er the end of the war playing around on the estate with friends. I know what the insides of some of the homes of some of my mates were like.
HM: And of course, the new school was surrounded by the estate most of the children came from the estate, and I imagine that in itself was enough to cause undercurrents and all sorts of things.
PR: Yes, yes. I remember a knock on the classroom door when I was in the top class and the door opened one morning and Derek Walls, whose Grandmother lived a little bit up the road erm put his head in and said “Please Miss the King's dead” and that was the ….so that does tie up I was still there when the Coronation and left the month after that. Please Miss the King's dead (laugh) that was the announcement so.
HM: Do you remember Gordon Gibson?
PR: No
HM: Well I don't know whether this is anything I ought to talk about now, only you know you talked about awarding stars, well on one occasion a child was ill in the classroom and Gordon Gibson was most helpful and so he was awarded a star for all the help he gave. For the rest of his time in the classroom*******rubbing his hands together with glee! (laughter)
KS: Ooh yes
PR: So, um, what did children play in the playground. Still thinking of the old school, what did you see out of the window when you were having your cup of tea? All the staff met didn't they in your classroom? And got a view of the playground from there. Presumably one was officially on duty were they?
HM: They played hopscotch and skipping. Quite a bit of skipping. They seemed to like to make a chain of themselves and either play at trains or tagging. I even came across in the early days a game that I thought would have died long ago, bus horses, you know bus horses? They just link arms and gallop along and they are bus horses. They link up with the days when they were.
PR: All sorts of funny expressions like favits and fexis and erm but kiss chase of course had it’s... Don't know if they were told not to do that, they were silly games. Mustn't do kiss chase anymore. But that announcement been given. Oh yes and the girls did handstands against the wall.
HM: That was one of the favourite things, handstands. Their skirts tucked in their knickers and up they went. Um, school meals – were there any? Yes, we went along the road to the hall, not the church hall, St Nicholas Hall,
PR: the Cawg Hall C A W G
HM: Well, that's where we went for meals at the beginning of my time there. Had we got a canteen when you came?
KS: What in the old school? I can't remember
HM: Yes we used to have container meals at the other place, they were dreadful.
PR: They were cooked at the kitchen in Hertingfordbury Road opposite now where would it be, near the entrance to Becketts at the moment, the Ridings, Miss Kinner ran those kitchens and then a van brought the containers. Now the thing about the Cawg Hall, it's next to Doris Shadbolts and the health food store, by the Dramatic Society premises. You come past the exit from St Andrews Street car park now and there was a little store there and the hall was at the back
HM: Yes I'd forgotten the name of the hall.
PR: Yes, The Cawg Hall and Evelyn Ambrose and Ruby Walls – and on hot days in your classroom you you would open the window which was right against the pavement just on a really hot days, and we knew it was getting near lunchtime, because we'd hear those two go past the window (laughter) just going down to the hall ready to receive the class.
HM: Do you remember the meals when we had a piece of cheese with hot gravy over it?
PR: No, no! A lot of them stayed we used hold hands and walk down there two by two.
HM: That's right. And then a great time came when they planned. They were going to have a new canteen. Well it was there when you came. They cooked on the school premises. And one of the classrooms was going to be divided up for this purpose and so all the plans had to be passed by the managers so the managers met and they looked at the plans and they hears all the estimates and the discussed it completely and passed it and so we were going to have a canteen, and so one of the managers a Mrs Jollins, she wanted to be taken round the school, so Miss Smith took her round and showed her and when she got to the other end she said and this is where we are going to have our canteen. Oh said Mrs Jollins, you're going to have a canteen? Won't that be nice for you. (laughter) She just passed it …..
KS: Something in the parson's ground. Did you ever?
HM: What did we do there?
KS: A party or something, put the children into the rectory. Had a game or ...don't know what that was for.
HM: I know we went there.
PR: Yes. Norman Smith used to come into our .******** My mum used to think Miss Smith was a bit not sweet on him exactly but she always went a bit soppy around the Rev'd Gill.
HM: I think she had a liking for church people didn't she? That's what they said at her funeral.
PR: Yes, some people go for uniforms and others go for dog collars! (laughter) Do you know what's happened to many former pupils I mean do you keep…?
HM: Well, Miss Smith probably more than I because…
PR: Do you see people around people in Hertford or have people gone away – any distinguished old boys?
HM: Sometimes we've seen met one or two over here but you wouldn't and they stop you but you wouldn't know them in Hoddesdon. Do you remember ************
KS: Sometimes their mothers stop me and I can't for the life of me remember their name and I usually say and how's the family because I cannot remember the children's names.
HM: I had a middle aged woman in Fore Street once stopped me and said “Hello, don't you know me I'm Maureen!” And here was little Maureen, whatever her name was! Tiny little thing *************Oh yes the Days I remember them yes
PR: Had a sister Brenda
KS: And they were twins, there were twins weren’t there. Pearl. What about Mrs Bilton's daughter?
HM: Paula Bilton *******
PR: Yes, she lives out at Watton or somewhere
HM: She still lives along there because she came to church after that. She always wants to tell me about her daughter.
KS: Christopher somebody who was quite bright his mother speaks to me sometimes. He's a solicitor now.
PR: Stephen Mackernally he was
HM: Oh yes I remember the Mackernally's they were – there was a sister too
KS: One of the twin girls who used to live down at Cardiga Bay way
PR: The Buckles ***********
HM: Do you remember the Buckle twins we couldn't get one or the other to beat the other in racing. They always ********
PR: Couldn't separate…I remember a fire in the chimney of the bungalow next door (clock chimes) ******** bungalow chimney and we had toward the end of the afternoon **********yes that happened and then there was road accident. Someone was killed on their bicycle, Mrs Pike, along the road near to us and the mothers on the estate came down to a lot of extra mums to stop their children walking up and Mrs Finch at the door for Christine. We all walked to school. There weren’t any cars.
HM: No. I remember when we finally left those premises and came to the new ones we had Now Thank We All our God and the hymn of thankfulness that we never had a child injured and yet we had that entrance way on to the main road. We never had.
PR: Mrs Madle fell off her bicycle there I remember seeing her sitting there with her petticoats blowing. She got on with Mrs Bush at lunchtime to cycle home for lunch and for some reason she fell off the other side and we saw this (laughter) pile up in the road and that could have been dangerous.
KS: The children often used to go to the Ebenezer Chapel didn't they just before the ************
HM: I remember little Freddy telling me and we met at the hall and we had a prayer and then the coach came and we had a prayer (much laughter and inaudible chattering)
KS: She lost Freddy didn't she and they went to the seaside and I said did you have a nice day and she said spent nearly all the day looking for Freddy! (laughter)
PR: The Police didn't come into school for any sort of road safety things? I don't think we had outsiders in or did we?
HM: Yes, there was one policeman came and I think you were there then because I remember seeing the amusement in the eyes of Wisby and others. We had one and he wasn't a modern type policeman because he used to say “Does yer do it? I knows yer does cos I sees yer”. (laughter) Do you remember that.
PR: Well I think we've covered…I'm looking down my list and I've got Shinty down and I've got the church, links playround games, music, the art. Oh art - the art was done by?
KS: Oh a man came didn't he?
HM: Oh yes, what was his name
PR: Mr Sumray.
HM: Mr Sumray that's right and he lived in the water tower at Bramfield. I think he lived in a converted water tower.
KS: There is one at…
PR: Miss Tickle a very large lady teaching art. She wore these very difficult for a little boy to cope with very low cut dresses and she was big. I don't know how long she came but I've got this big memory of her that's lasted for ever, and because of her size she couldn't easily get down to our desks and we had to come out to her and I remember holding my painting to the left and putting my head over my right shoulder because I couldn't face this great expanse of (laughter) and er......
HM: Yes I remember Miss Tickle.
PR: She wasn't anyone too bad I think. I got the ruler because of her, she went, toddled across to the waste bin by the fireplace and looked into it and saw that there was some best cartridge paper, cut and put into the bin. And for some reason she assumed that Peter Ruffles had done it and I hadn't and I was pulled out to the front and asked and I said “No wasn't me” and Miss Smith was in that little office that had been constructed with my Ma who was the secretary at the time and they both came out and quizzed me on it and I said “No” but it was assumed – they knew I had! And I got the ruler for it, one or two strokes and on my way back to the desk Peter Shoebridge who lived at the Old Oak burst into tears, because he'd done it. And Miss Tickle, though she started the inquiry, kept out of it but I remember this drilling from Miss Smith and my mother standing there sort of willing me to say “Yes”. I'm sure she thought I'd done it. (laughter) They couldn't take – and I don't remember any greater commentary. And I also remember Miss Smith making one of her rotten remarks unjustly. You remember those injustices. I'd been out to the front because I'd been talking behind the desk lid, put the desk lid up and talked across to Diana Hatton and been caught for that and pulled out and just told me off for it. On the way back to my desk she announced to the class “Look at him and he even has to have his name in his socks so he doesn't lose them”. And I had these little ankle socks on with my name tab sticking up and the reason I'd got my name in them was because of the school journey. (chatter and laughter) And on the back of our exercise books we had the tables and weights and measures and it had how many pounds in a stone and under the how many ounces in a pound I'd written 16 moggies one ounce (laughter) that landed me in trouble – and you landed me in an awful lot of trouble because I inked in one of your stars. You didn't punch it very well so I inked it in and…
HM: You got into trouble for that!
PR: The next time I handed my book in you spotted that so yes I was in your bad books (more laughter) but yes good days mostly.
HM: One thing I can remember about you is erm your family was very keen on gardening I don't know whether you still are and er Miss Smith, Miss H Smith, had turned out flower pots, put them in the dustbin or somewhere and you found them. You brought them in to me – You know she doesn't realise the value of all these things you said. (laughter)
PR: I would have said that today!! (laughs) There was no timetable at school really or did you have a working – when you go to secondary school bells ring and er…?
HM: Yes there was timetable of a sort wasn't there? Yes
KS: Must've been. Much of the time we changed certain lessons
HM: Yes there was a timetable
PR: It didn't seem to rigidly rule the day like
HM and KS: Oh no no not like it would in the other school no
PR: But the method of learning you know was spelling tests and multiplication tables and that sort of thing I think we all really thrived on.
KS: I'm sure you did oh yes. When Mr Blundell came in he used to say there's Miss Smith every Monday she's got her spelling test done.
HM: Yes, well you've got to work out – watch out for him coming otherwise I'd teach the tables and things like that and erm if I saw him coming I stopped.
PR: Stop, stop when you saw the new Head come in?
KS: I did it. But you know a little while after that they came back to it because the children couldn't spell.
HM: Well, towards the end I made them compile a book in their last term, all the things they ought to know. Little items about grammar and the tables and everything else they ought to know when they got to their new school and I got a letter from one of the parents thanking me but that was all under the counter as you might say because that was Oh that's too formal!
PR & KS: Oh yes
HM: And now we are going back to it.
PR: And even the name of God wasn't mentioned
HM: Do you remember when we had someone to tell us about it and she went off in a huff. Do you? Because we just wouldn't wear it that she was trying to tell us that children mustn't be told about God and you mustn't mention angels they can't understand anything like that.
PR: And you upset her.
HM: Yes the whole staff did, not me and she went off and Mr Blundell said I hope we see her again. She said if your staff want me. Everyone had gone and Mr Blundell was busy putting chairs back and he was mumbling to himself All these Christians! (laugh)
KS: Some very haywire things
PR: And all those naughty ones you had sitting up straight. Look at Philip Dormer I remember he was a challenge wasn't he? But he got in Miss *******
KS: Father said I was the only one to get him to wear a tie when we had concerts and things you know. He was an amazing young thing he got on well with you know music and everything. He took his art work I think he's now a manager in a wine shop or something. And the other boy was very lazy too, Giles.
HM: Giles. Philip was the one who was excellent at acting for me. He was very good at drama. Do you remember Giles when he acted in front of…?
KS: I know what you’re are going to say (laughter)
HM: Unscripted drama in front of parents (laughing) and everybody and Giles was haggling for a horse, is that the one you are thinking of? And er the fellow he was asking the man apparently how much do you want for the horse and he says £3 and Giles said three bloody pounds! (laughs)
KS: Those children were never I mean they were always, his shirt was hanging out his hair wasn't done and oh they were rough and ready.
PR: The modern child and yet they all praised I remember very clearly them saying what you'd done now they'd got in Miss K Smith's class and er and lots of parents still say that, don't they, at St Andrews School.
HM: The old St Andrews as it was. Do you remember at the zoo once we took a party to the zoo, London Zoo? I was looking around and a boy comes up to me and said if you want Miss Smith she's just gone round the bend!! (laughter)
KS: When you think how you looked after those children we never had them when we went to the – do you remember when it snowed I mean they never fell down anywhere like that, you always got behind them weren't you?
HM: You never let them out of your sight. I mean this disaster in Lands End should never have been.
PR: Yes, they just ran away down the cliff.
HM: Well no you make sure that they're always in sight because you know that you are
PR: There's a purple book now with rules and regulations but you didn't need
KS: No no.
HM: Whereas
KS: What's going to happen now I don't know.........
PR: Well, that's smashing. We're finished, Pearl.
HM: Oh is that finished.
Chatter to finish...