Interviewed by Mary Ollis (MO) and Peter Ruffles (PR); a visitor called Pete features - Pete (Ottley)
Date: 21/02/1995
Transcribed by Marilyn Taylor from tape and notes by Jean Riddell February 2012
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O 1995.5
Interviewee: Frederick William "Nanna" Thomas (FT)
Date: 21st Feb 1995
Venue: 27 New Road, Bengeo
Interviewers: Mary Ollis (MO) and (PR); a visitor called Pete features – Pete (Ottley)
Transcriber: Marilyn Taylor from tape and notes by Jean Riddell February 2012
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
(italics) editor‟s notes
Starts with Peter "singing"
PR: 21st Feb 1995 pre-recording "Nanna" Thomas 27 New Road Bengeo, Half Term, "Nanna" Thomas a little later
Transcribers note: Then the recording starts but a lot of what "Nanna" says is indistinct so transcribed as best I can the first part is general discussion as Peter tries to set up the recorder.
FT:***********
MO: Really Gosh Ha Ha ***********
PR: I think that will do I never really know……..
MO: It looks professional
PR: Whether that‟s going to be……no better off the other way………oh right………..
FT:**********
PR: Yes Yes, ………now how did I do that before?
MO: Well wait a minute put mine on
PR: No no no……………I, I had it a good way…………thought I had got a better idea …..That‟s it I think. Have you been on Television?
FT: No
[Laugh and unclear comments]
PR: That should be Ok I think yes
FT: Don‟t want to no, don‟t think I would like that.
MO: You have got a good set there.
FT: Pardon
MO: You have got a nice television set
FT: Yes what that one
MO: Um
FT: Yes, that‟s me video underneath
MO: Um
PR: Do you watch much of that video?
FT: Video, well I watch films in the evening
PR: Yes yes
FT: Late at night, cause there‟s nothing else before 9 o‟clock and I go to bed normally about 10 o‟clock and I set that you see.
PR: Yes
FT: Pick the films over then I use them in the evenings the next evening between 7 and 10
PR: Yes
MO: That‟s nice
PR: Now
FT: Is it too cold with this door open
PR & MO: No no
PR: All we want to do is to ask you a few ordinary little questions about your life.
FT: Yes
PR: The rent book, how long you‟ve been here, the Post Office....any ordinary bits, then we can sit back and, you know anything you can remember.......Mary Ollis, to do with Evan Marks the Jeweler‟s......
FT: Oh I can………..that‟s now the video place
MO: Yes
FT: Whatever the stuck that there for I don‟t know. Um Old Bill who used to live up Russell Street is he still around?
MO: John Bunyan
FT: John Bunyan, I always used to call him "Bill"
MO: That‟s right he…..
FT: Is he still around
MO: No he died last January,
FT: I thought I hadn‟t seen him running around.
MO: No he was about; he was 87 when he died
FT: Was he really, not a bad age then was he.
MO: No
FT: I often used to pop in to him I used to have a lot of trouble with his winder coming off you know and of course Mrs. um whatshername used to work for him. *** Now what was her name? Her husband used to work for…..
MO: Elsie
FT: Who
MO: Elsie? I can‟t remember her …
FT: I can‟t remember her name. She worked for him for years didn‟t she. Her husband worked at McMullens. Well I was born on Port Hill. Is this on?
PR: Yes yes we are away…..yes
FT: 87 Port Hill, that‟s pulled down now, they pulled the first 4 down didn‟t they.
Transcribers note: This is not quite right as there was no 87 Port Hill in 1911 the family are at 81 Port Hill so it seems most likely that is where he was born. They actually pulled down 7 cottages there no’s 71 to 83.
PR: Ah, where, on the, going up the hill on the left?
FT: On the …. Opposite the Warren Gates.
PR: Burt‟s the butchers and er
FT: Opposite there. There was 4 houses there, they pulled…..
PR: That patch of, yes land, yes I had forgotten they pulled 4 down there…..
Transcribers note: At the time or recording it was a garden/ waste land there have since been 2 cottages built on the site alongside the remaining old ones. No 69 having previously been extended.
FT: 89…..I was born in 18 ….1909 24th December
PR: Cor you are over 75 then.
FT: I am 86 yeah ha ha……..and I think I was about 3 or 4 years old when my mother had an illness so we moved down the green. Her sister looked after us.
PR: Oh
FT: Then when she came out of hospital she stopped down the green cause they‟d lost the house on the hill after being out so long
PR: Yes
FT: But the one thing about the green you should remember is the old Ragged School I could never remember pulling that………why the pulled that down.
PR: No
FT: Cause that was built in 1879
PR: Ah
FT: That was built…..that was a real reliable place. Daddy Dixon used to run it, used to be Daddy Dixon, Gracie, John and Elsie. It was all in the family.
PR: Did they live on the Green as well then or?
FT: When my mother came out of hospital and we lived with her sister we moved to number 24
PR: and that‟s on the rent book we‟ve just seen….ah yes
FT: Where did you put it?
PR: Buried it I expect!
MO: Did you know Jim Morris, who had lived on the Green, lived in The Angel what they called The Angel
(Transcribers Note: The Angel wasn’t on The Green it was in Railway Street but extended at the back into the envelope of the Green)
FT: Jim Morris
MO: Yes
FT: There was no Morris down the green
MO: Not when you were there.
FT: Not….we moved up here in 1929.
MO: Ah yes
FT: The Green was all pulled down.
PR: Yes. Did the Dixon‟s live on The Green...
FT: Dixon
PR: The ones that did the Ragged School. Were they called Dixon?
FT: That would be the ragged school No, they used to live up, oh what‟s its name, Wellington Street or somewhere in that area.
Transcribers note: Possibly Byde Street, there is a family of that name in Byde Street in 1911 the father is Hudson Dixon a missionary and provision officer he died in 1929 in Hertford.
PR: Yes Oh so you stayed on The Green with your mum?
FT: and my brother, my father and 2 sisters
PR: Oh
FT: You remember one of my sisters Dick Ketteridge (she married)
PR: Yes the man with the hook arm.
MO: Oh, well was she your sister. She used to work for my mother
FT: Up Queens Road
MO: That‟s right yes. Highfield Road
FT: She worked for her for a long while didn‟t she?
MO: she worked for her for a long while. Yes
FT: The old ragged school
MO: That‟s right
FT: Well, We used to; it was a fiddle really, of course when we was little. Used to have to, parents always used to want to get rid of you on a Sunday afternoon and they used to give you a ha‟penny if it was a bad week if it was a good week they would give you a penny and you had to go to Sunday School we used to go to old Daddy Dixon that was on the green and he used to give us a card and he used to mark it and you got to show that to your mother and father when you come back to them so knew you had been.
PR: Yes
FT: So if you was lucky Christmas time you got a handkerchief, an Orange and two apples they used to give you for Christmas
PR: Well well
FT: and the first job I used to get when I got home, I don‟t know if you can remember? I don‟t know how old you are?
PR: I‟m very young!
FT: Oh and um we used to have a man come, he came from Wadesmill. He used to go round the pubs on a Sunday morning and he used to sell winkles and shrimps and all that sort of stuff all fresh and clean in a big basket and we always had winkles for tea Sunday‟s and that was my first job to do when I came home from Sunday School get a pin and pull the winkles out *** and put them in a little salt water
PR: Yes
FT: That‟s the first thing I had to do when I came back
PR: When you came back from the Ragged School
FT: Ragged School
PR: Ragged school yes
FT: **
PR: Where did um….was City Street, then on the green? how can you describe where your particular bit……
FT: Well The Green was the road from the centre from the shops; Pearce‟s right down to the river that whole stretch of the river.
Transcribers note: on the maps this is Green Street
PR: Right
FT: Well ½ way down The Green was a little alleyway that we used to go through and you was in City Street right?
PR: Yes
FT: and then you could go through onto Bircherley Street there was quite a few houses in in City Street
PR: Were there yes
FT: We lived in a house that used to be The Bottle, a pub, and they broke it up into 4, we had one, there was 3 other people in the block.
PR: The Leather Bottle was it called?
FT: The Leather Bottle and um now then the Leather Bottle the people had it that moved up near you McLellan‟s
Transcribers note: in 1911 there is a family called McLellan at The Butcher Arms, Bircherley Street I would assume the same people. They had 4 sons and a daughter at that time.
PR: Did they?
FT: You know they moved up to
PR: Yes number 74 (Hertingfordbury Road)
FT: There was 2 boys, I went with the youngest one. He was rather clever and went to college. The oldest one used to work, I don‟t know what happened to the oldest one. Used to be a blacksmith‟s shop down, you know where the Warren House is
PR: Yes
FT: Down Railway Street we had a blacksmith‟s shop there called Wilkinson‟s‟
PR: The Rayment Brothers used to run it didn‟t they, one was murdered
FT: No you are going up ….
PR: more recently
FT: No you are going up to the White Horse now Castle Street, they used to live opposite the Co-op, all boys and old girls you‟d see them regular. All boys was in front and mother and father behind, going down the hill to that Baptist School
PR: Ah
FT: that‟s where they all lived‟
PR: I thought Rayment‟s were down Railway Street.
FT: No *** We had 2 blacksmiths down Railway Street, that was Wilkinson‟s up the far end and Wheelers who lived down The Folly.
PR: Yes
FT: I believe some of the Wheelers are still there.
PR: Yes yes the Folly I think yes
FT: There we used to have an old curing place down there can you remember the Lion‟s Head, well there was a yard part a sort of roadway down there and Claydons or Donoghue‟s used to have a curing place for the fish you know.
PR: Ah
FT: They used to keep their fish in there and if you walk a bit further there used to be a big old building and old Fisher used to have it for a lodging house.. .you paid half a crown a week in there, and the other one that was in Bircherley Street where you could sit all night you paid 6d a week McLellan‟s used to be a place that took in lodgers.
PR: Ah
FT: and when we moved out of The Green, we had to move out of The Green, they moved up your way and the Dyes moved up your way
PR: Dye‟s did as well yes
FT: Dye‟s did.
PR: I can remember a Mrs. McLellan a little Scots lady she was.
FT: yes and um
PR: She had a daughter
FT: There was two Dyes cause um… there was Babe, Clara, John and another one and another 2 brothers used to live in Railway Street
PR: Yes
FT: A little way down we had...Poll Dye and um Poll Dye and whatsername....and they used to have 2 little ponies you know, I saw the Cuffley plane come down because, these little ponies I used to take them down where can I say? Didn‟t used to go down the meads went on the left where Pearce‟s‟ Bakery and all that is now. There used to be a little field there belonged to Dye‟s and um I used to take the two ponies down on a Saturday and bring them back Sunday night. I used to get tuppence for that. I used to see Pearl White down at the pictures...
Transcribers Note: This is around 23 Railway Street that was Wrens, at time of transcription it is Loftcat
PR: Yes
MO: Pearl White.... „The Perils of......
FT: Pearl White ***
MO: So where were the pictures?
FT: This was in Market Street where a betting shop and hairdressers is now that was called The Premier.
MO and PR: UM
FT: Do you remember it?
MO: I remember that yes we used to call it „the flea pit‟
FT: Yes they turned it into a Variety Palace in the end didn‟t they?
PR: What were the ponies used for then?
FT: The old man Daniel used to use them out in the country sweeping chimneys and I used to go with him some nights when they had got churches to do and we was at Cuffley Church when that. He was in church he didn‟t see it and I used to stand and hold the pony for him till he came out. He used to keep one little for round about the town and one, Bessie, for when he had night work, cleaning churches.
PR: Cor
FT: Yes
PR: So you were, they only took the ponies to the field as it were on Saturday
FT: On Saturday for a rest over the weekend.
PR: Where did they keep them in the yard in Railway Street?
FT: They got, no, in The Green
PR: In The Green itself
FT: Yes you had the Green then you had City Street, and right down the bottom where that goos right round the bottom that was River Street and that was pulled down before I could remember them. There was a continuation of ½ a dozen houses that used to run up like a cul-de-sac what was the last of them that used to go up beside the river.
Transcriber note: Goos is a familiar Hertford pronunciation of goes
PR: You don‟t remember Mrs. Watts of the fish shop
FT: That ( The fish and chip shop) was in Railway Street, she moved up Sele Road didn‟t she
PR: Chelmsford Road.
FT: Chelmsford Road
PR: Yes yes she is still there Mrs. Henry one of her..
FT: she lost her son sudden didn‟t she?
PR: yes he died just after I‟d been down to see her.
FT: That was down near a place called Hayden‟s Court, can you remember Hayden‟s Court in Railway Street.
MO: No, where was that?
FT: Hayden‟s Court
MO: My grandfather had the corner shop, Rose and Son‟s you know the books on the corner of Bull Plain
FT: Yeah , no**********
MO: That‟s right that was my grandfather……….. and printing works
FT: They used to say that Railway Street had a bit of bad name but you come to work it out we had old Joshy Wren was there wasn‟t he, we had the 2 Dyes, they was both mayor.
PR: Yes
FT: We had Barber he was mayor
MO: yes yes
PR: Yes that that was the other side of it.
FT: We used to have an old man used to come up, don‟t know if you can remember it, used to have an old man Wrighty his name was used to live on the corner of Hayden‟s Court, used to bring his cattle up from Hartham cause they used to use Hartham as a cattle place (coughs) used to bring his old cows up and used to put the cows on the pavement....then if they done any mess then used to wash it down. I used to go round and get the milk off him ....what else do you want to know?
PR: Well, you‟re doing very well, cor dear, all these things tumbling out! and .. . .so Watt‟s fish shop, fish and chips was on the corner of.....
FT: Mrs. Dodson„s she used to be Dodson her name was Dodson there
PR: Oh
FT: The Co-op was on the corner wasn‟t it when you came out of Bircherley Street can you remember the Co-Op being there and then they moved when they pulled The Green down they moved to the far end of Fore street next to the garage.
PR: Oh yes I can remember them being there
FT: Well they came from the corner they used to be right on the corner opposite Mr. Watts. There was Mrs. Watts, Mr. Sexton then there was the chapel wasn‟t it which is still there.
MO: The Quaker (Friends’ Meeting House)
FT: In Railway Street. Mrs. Watts used to live right opposite where the bank is now.
PR: Lloyds Bank on the corner yes
MO: Oh yes
FT: She used to live right opposite there were 2 houses along there and then you used to go down Hayden‟s Court. There was 1,2,3,4 there was about 8 houses down there.
PR: Did you ever have any rough times any or entertainment of
FT: *** the Irishmen that built the North Station but they was…..
MO: Irishmen?
FT: Yeah the North Station
MO: Yes they built the tunnel
FT: They were going to make a shopping centre in Hertford. Not sure how long ago that was they got rid of Mrs.‟s Um……..Mac‟s give two pubs up, The Angel
MO: Yes that‟s where the Morris‟s, Jim Morris lived
FT: Oh you are on about that Morris
MO: Yes
FT: Well they used to live in Railway Street right opposite where, where can I say right opposite the Sports shop
Transcribers note: Opposite number 30 Railway Street
PR: Yes
MO: Yes
FT: where the sports shop
PR: Yes where the sports shop is
FT: There was 2 there the Angel and another pub called, there was another one further up called The Cross Keys
MO: Yes I remember The Cross Keys
FT: There was a Mrs. Pearce kept it she moved up to North Road didn‟t they
MO: Oh Yes
FT: McMullens give 3 pubs up along there and none of the schemes didn‟t come out. What‟s the pub up there at the North Station he got that and they wanted a pub up what‟s it called Greenways, you know where the green top houses is, there was a piece of land there, wasn‟t there, and that‟s where he wanted a pub but he never has got it has he……..
Transcribers note the piece of land with the green roofed house is the other end of Hertford around Woodlands Road and Foxholes Avenue
MO & PR: No no
FT: No because as I say they gave all them up opening there, and when it come will came to it, Barbers wouldn‟t move, they shifted the Co-Op round to Fore Street, Barber‟s wouldn‟t move McMullens give the middle up and then on the other end you got old Joshua Wren, do you remember him?
MO: Yes I remember.
FT: I tell you who was there before Joshua (name is Josiah but he says Joshua) Wren people named Skerman, lived down Ware Road, one used to walk about with gaiters, Joe Skerman
PR: Yes
FT: Called Joe always wore Gaiters didn‟t he?
PR: I was thinking of Spackman..Not Spackman?
FT: No they was Skerman
PR: Spackman swept the road, who was a road sweeper with leather gaiters
FT: No he was something to do with the Skerman‟s, they used to keep, then Wrens moved in and then Pemberton Billing
PR: Yes Pemberton Billing
MO: Oh yes I remember Pemberton Billing because there was a gramophone record which was called „I won‟t be ruled by DORA‟ DORA was the Defence Of the Realm Act and my father Bill Ollis he used to play this record when my mother was bossing him about, and as children my brother and I used to walk round the house, march round the house, shouting at the tops of our voices „We won‟t be ruled by Dora‟
PR: (To Mary) What a trial you were! (To Nanna) So did you go to school in Hertford?
FT: Yes I went up to where the old Miss Baker was the **** infants school
MO: Yes, Bengeo wasn‟t it? Was Miss Baker Bengeo or All Saints?
FT: All Saints
MO: All Saints, I remember her yes
(someone calls at the back door and tier is a brief conversation, he comes in later as Pete)
PR: You went to?
FT: I went to infants.
MO: All Saints Infants School
FT: All Saint‟s yes they have pulled it down now Miss Baker and Miss Pickering was up there and then I went up Mill..............up to Port Vale School
MO: Oh Port Vale
FT: Dicky Turpin was the headmaster there and a man named Mr. Edwards was senior Turpin. (This does not make sense but seems to be what he says)
MO: This was a boys‟ school
FT: Yes used to be the boys up Port Vale and the girls in Dimsdale Street, Dimsdale Street for the girls wasn‟t it
MO: Yes yes next to the Church ..Next to the um Cowbridge
FT: Then the evacuees used it during the war didn‟t they
MO: Yes
FT: They used it then it was shut up and it hasn‟t been used since has it
MO: No
PR: I think they are going to pull it down soon.
FT: Going to put houses there aren‟t‟ they?
PR: and build houses yes, you keep up with the news don‟t you! You know what‟s coming and what‟s just come.
FT: Keeps you going
PR: Yes you do. Um what about Chitty Wren then. Was that Chitty Wren the chap who……….
Readers Note from Peter Ruffles "I’m puzzled by the Chitty name wasn’t like Chalky and Nobby applied generally to the Wren’s . Do wren’s chit?"
FT: That was his father was the widower *** his mother, they used to live along Ware Road and the one that used to keep the one in Railway Street was his son.
PR: Right
FT: Then the daughters used to work in the one in Ware Road didn‟t they.
PR: Well we get muddled up with Chitty Wren because there were 2 or 3 people I think called Chitty Wren in the town. You refer to the baker
FT: Yeah
PR: and some people talk about someone who went playing a harmonium or something around the…
FT: No his name wasn‟t, there was another one used to do it he used to carry a big old harp with him
PR: Ah
FT: ******small harps and stuff
PR: Yes
FT: and then I can‟t think of his name, I will think of his name in a minute, Cheshire used to live down the ******** big chap Cheshire
PR: AH
FT: Cheshire used to carry a big old harp with him that‟s where you are getting mixed up
PR: Yes
FT: You see when old man Wren come he bought 2 bake houses, one down The Green, he put one of his sons in, his daughters worked the shop on Ware Road and the other son went up Hertford Heath.
PR: Right
FT: That was the eldest son up Hertford Heath he ran it in the end when the old man died
PR: So when the talked about Chitty Wren they meant the old man did they?
Transcribers note: Josiah Wren master baker seems to have had at least 6 daughters and 3 sons.
FT: We had a lot of Wrens in Hertford, we had a Wren used to live up , when Dick had he had that shop didn‟t we they used to call him the Midnight Milkman didn‟t they, he used to have a tricycle.
(Transcribers note Dick Ketteridge had his shop on Parliament Square near Millers Yard it was pulled down)
PR: That was the one called Chitty as well
FT: then there was another one up St. Andrew Street used to be a barber he used to take his wife out on his 3 wheeler every week she used to sit on the back if you can remember.(facing backwards!)
MO: I remember quite a lot of people with tricycles. Tricycles were very popular then weren‟t they?
FT: Yes well at least this three-wheeler she had a little seat at the back and she used to face the road and they used to go miles on a weekend.
PR: Ah this is super you‟re filling us in on all you‟re…..so when I knew you it was Post Office
FT: Yes
PR: and I was doing the Christmas post
FT: Yes
PR: How long had you been at the Post Office?
FT: calls to Pete Ottley …… Pete how long was I there?
Pete: I don‟t know how long you………..
FT: 18 years
PR: Was it!
FT: I was at the Post Office 18 years cause did you come down with Winnie Brooks
PR: Yes yes
MO: Winnie Brooks
WT: Mrs. um Rose
PR: Probably Yes yes
Pete: I don‟t remember you and I have been there for 41 years.
Clock chiming
PR: Good grief …….well you used to push us around with your broom
Laughs
Pete: Well yes I mean he would push you around with his broom….
MO: Where ……..
PR: There were so many doing the Christmas post for 2 or 3 years when all the glitter used to come off the Christmas cards and out of the envelopes when they were sorted and the whole floor was like …with glitter. There was a Gardner was the superintendent.
FT: There was Gardener oh I can‟t think of the other one, Austin ….
PR: Cyril Austin yes yes
FT: That‟s it Gardener was the top dog wasn‟t he . Old ** Oh I can‟t think, he is still alive, Ted Bean. He doesn‟t know nobody…….(Teddy Bean – Folly Island)
PR: Oh yes
FT: He was supervisor when you were there wasn‟t he.
PR: Yes he was
FT: He is a cabbage now. Doesn‟t know nobody, have you been down there?
PR: No I haven‟t seen him for a long time
FT: Last time I saw him when I had to go; when I packed up with the Post Office I took a little part time job down Marshgate
PR: Oh
FT: and I used to go through The Folly because both of me father‟s brothers was down there before the war, and I used to pop in and see him. The last time I see him was what three years ago, four years ago he was a cabbage (memory loss) then but still surviving. He‟s about nearly 90 now I think.
PR: Is he Yes he used to have a very high pitched voice
FT: Yes
PR: Yes but Gardener was a stickler for law and order wasn‟t he
FT: Yes
Pete: He was a forces man.
PR: Were you there; was Gardener there when you were there?
Pete: Old Harry yes yes
FT: He‟s done about 35 years at the Post Office haven‟t you Pete
PR: Yes
Pete: till now 41 ½ years
PR: and Cyril Austin stayed on longer didn‟t he
FT: Yes ***
PR: Yes we have talked to him he has talked about about Post Office times and his wife worked on the telephones.
FT: That was….
PR: Dorothy and Pam Lambert and John Lambert.
FT: ***I saw lambert but I didn‟t stop I wanted to get to home but he has aged a lot Lambert now hasn‟t he. Oh I say he has when I saw him.
PR: He has just had his Golden Wedding.
FT: Has he?
PR: Yes yes .
FT: Was it in the paper?
PR: No no
FT: I can‟t imagine her. She wouldn‟t have it in. She‟s a funny woman. I didn‟t get on with her.
PR: No no she was a very private and reserved yes yes
FT: I could never get on with her. If you stopped and spoke to him you know she wouldn‟t stop she used to move a few yards away.
MO: So was the Post Office and sorting office, it was all on the same site in Fore Street? Was it behind the main Post Office?
*********
PR: When I went it had gone up Rooks Alley.
MO: Oh you had gone up to Rooks Alley by then?
FT: Yes they had done the road up Rooks Alley
PR: Yes
FT: because the altered the road didn‟t they
PR: Yes
FT: Because the road was supposed to have gone right through the sorting office right in the middle of it
MO: Yes
FT: Mrs. Ramsay used to live in oh what was it used to stand behind the garages
PR: Yes
MO: Hertford Motors?
FT: Yes a big house it used to stand….what?
Pete: Crumbles was it Little Crumbles
FT: That‟s it Little Crumbles biggish house
PR: Yes
FT: Yeah and it was coming down right across there but it went a bit further back
PR: Yes Goodhew‟s used to live there up in Rook‟s Alley but I can‟t remember I think when I first went on the Christmas post it was the back of Fore Street
FT: Oh you‟re going back some years now
MO: Yes I remember it there.
PR: ******
FT: I remember when Parratt was there a man named Parratt ***** he was in charge down there he was before Gardener. A man named Parratt he lived in Bengeo Street, you know where the Co-Op is opposite the Co-Op there is a yard isn‟t there.
PR: Yes
FT: There were 2 or 3 houses
PR: Yes 18a or 18b.
FT: He used to live up there Parratt did. I wonder who is in charge now.
PR: I don‟t remember
FT: I tell you how I know. We had a man live with us and the Post Office caught him fiddling and I went up there to see the postmaster and that‟s who I was showed into, and when I saw who it was, it was the man up Bengeo Street
PR: Oh
FT: That‟s how I knew he was in charge, because I asked to see the person who was in charge because I wanted to about……………wanted to find out more and they took me to see Mr. Parratt.
PR: There was a chap called Whyman that lived up here was on the post
FT: They lived up Mead Lane
PR: What was he called? He died trimming his hedge
Pete: He did yes Bob
PR: Bob Whyman
FT: They come from Mead Lane there was a big family of them .well there was
PR: Yes
FT: Because my grandfather used to, well my mother was bought up, was born down Mead Lane. How I know was …..got married……well when her mother got married, there was a row of cottages at the back of Fore Street used to run up what is the back of the Post Office now that used to run all the way along. Then her mother moved from there to where Small and ….
MO: Small and Burgess
FT: there were some little cottages down there wasn‟t there.
MO: Oh yes that‟s right
FT: Do you remember it?
MO: Yes
PR: Keep going
FT: and then from there she went down Mead Lane
MO: Mead Lane yes
FT: there was no house down there then just a thatched bungalow right down the bottom beside the Gas Co.
MO: Then there was the big house that belonged to MR Duesbury the manager the manager at the Gas works.
Transcribers note : Mr. Harry Duesbury was the manager at the Gasworks and is on the 1911 living at Sunnyside
FT: Well my mother‟s mother used to do her washing
MO: Mrs. Duesbury‟s?
Pete: Sunnyside
FT: Yes
MO: That‟s right there. It was Sunnyside
FT: Mumford
MO: Yes
FT: Mumford
MO: So you‟re …..Sorry who was Mrs. Mumford?
FT: My mother‟s mother was Mrs. Mumford she had 16 children, 8 of them died so there was 8 of them left.
MO: Gracious, there was a lot of Mumford‟s from Clavering because my moth…one of my mother‟s cousin‟s was a Mumford
WT: Yes that was my mother‟s maiden name Mumford
MO: Yes
FT: How my father met my mother was they used to , when the barges were up there they used to unload coke in the Gas Co. you know thats how my mother come to know my father.
PR: Where did they off load it in the basin proper or?
FT: You know where you go right along to the first bridge, the first bridge after you leave the locks
PR: Yes
FT: and the barges used to lie alongside of it and then they carried it out into the gas company
PR: beside the gas works
FT: and then you see the barges come up to the, I don‟t know if you can remember it, where they used to make cake bread for animals.
PR: Oh yes
MO: ***********
FT: You go right along the front where Marshgate is now there‟s a garage
MO: Dicker mill?
WT: In the Dicker mill there‟s a timber….if you say that garage, there used to be a foreman‟s cottage right beside the river. Can you remember it?
MO: Um yes
FT: That‟s where they used to watch for the barges to come up with the coke. They used to watch for the barges for the linseed, and they used to watch for the barges to come up for the timber. There was Jewson‟s.
MO: Jewson‟s
FT: They used to watch for the barges to come up for Garratt‟s down the at the bottom of the Green and then they used to watch again for MacMullen‟s. That was the only work there was in Hertford at the time. Cause my mum…
MO: You remember the barges?
FT: Yes I worked on them in Hertford before the war at Grippers down Hartham Lane.
MO: Yes oh Grippers yes
FT: Down Grippers and Wightman‟s
MO: Because she used to live across the road here Mrs. Gripper and she had trees put along the road so no would see her going up and down. She bought the square bit on the end here right the way round where you know this wooden fence here that was her put that up well had that put up and she bought that little spinney and put a garage in it so no one would do it and she bought a piece right round to Revels Road so no one could build on it or look over at her.
Transcribers Note: This land is on the corner of New Road and Parker Avenue
PR: AH
FT: Yeah I worked on the barges quite a bit during the war when I was in my younger years
PR: So you would watch for a barge coming up
FT: We used to know the people that used to bring the horses, they used to say they were going to take the horses up certain places in London and bring the barge to it otherwise we wouldn‟t know when it would be there you see they use to be there at 7 o‟clock in the morning, 6 o‟clock in the morning and wait for them to come, I didn‟t. That was in my father‟s time but the barges would come up when I was working in the maltings. Well they used to come up and we used to unload them.
PR: What would you get for unloading of a barge?
FT: I don‟t know I forget now....not a lot about 10/-... or maybe not as much as that it all depends what‟s on the barge.
PR: Yes, there‟s a bit of history isn‟t it!
FT: Yes well that‟s what we used to do. That bit of the rivers not used now is it; I mean the old river Lee.
MO: No
FT: The used to clean it out didn‟t they. They used to look after it and everything, but they don‟t do it, not now
MO: used to be a lot of fish in it too
FT: Yes
MO: Perch and …
WT: yes there used to be lovely fish in there
MO: Did you fish?
FT: That‟s one thing I can‟t do, I could stick it for about half an hour and that‟s me lot.
PR: Yes, so in your family then, you all moved from Port Hill, City Street and then up here.
FT: Yes
PR: How many of you came here
FT: How many come…...me……. because my sister was in the Land Army in the 1914- who married Dick Ketteridge, that‟s how she met Dick Ketteridge when she was in the Land Army
PR: Ah he wasn‟t a Hertford bloke then?
FT: Who? Dick Ketteridge? He lived up um , he worked for the Post Office him his father was toffee nosed and a very toffee nosed family I can assure you. Kettridges, you remember the two daughters, two sisters used to work down the Arnold Thomas‟s
Transcribers note: The Ketteridge’s were in West Street in 1911
MO: Oh the Arnold Thomas‟s they lived in ** I know
FT: In Maidenhead Street by the side of Boots. They used to have the old cinema, I was in it once and it caught fire. An old cinema top of Boots‟
MO: Oh good gracious I don‟t remember that
FT: I wasn‟t very old I can just remember going in there and then Arnold Thomas‟s caught alight didn‟t it, that shop and his sisters were dressmakers there, and they bought one of Dick s daughters up and then she married a Bilton ( married name Millie Bilton). She used to go dressmaking for, what was that shop at the far end of ………Fore Street
MO: Small and Burgess
FT: No little shop used to be opposite where the café was, opposite, near the garage what was it.
MO:*****
FT: She used to make all the dresses in there
MO: was it *******
FT: you know where there are the pillars outside the door
Transcribers note: Now Loch Fyne fish restaurant, 2012. Was the Regal café and ½ the dress shop called "La Boutique" run by Eddie Bennett’s wife of was at one time chairman of finance at Hertford borough council.
PR: Yes the Regal
MO: oh yes the Regal
FT: There was a small little dressmakers shop there, she worked for them, and she was dressmaker for them for years
MO: AH
PR: So your sister
FT: You was talking about the other day, the other night about that place on Old Cross where old Hoare‟s the dentist used to be.
PR: Oh yes
FT: You didn‟t mention the other bit where there‟s house up there did you
PR: No I didn‟t know that. You forget how young I am!
FT: There used to be a road up the side of Hoare‟s there used to be 3 or 4 houses up there.
PR: AH
FT: At the side of the factory
PR: yes yes
FT: Peter told me
PR: Yes he was a key member of the audience, very well behaved
Pete: Something like that yes
PR: So up here when you arrived up here is was just
FT: My sister ****** was married when we moved up here, my brother was working for Hitch‟s he was living away Hilda was with Mrs. Trundell in Cromwell Road, bought Hilda up
Transcribers note: Emily Trundell nee Mumford their mothers sister
PR: Um
FT: So there was only me, two girls and two boys. It was only me come up here. Albert used to come up in bits and pieces you know
Transcriber’s note: Another sister Florence appears on the 1911 census but he makes no mention of her.
PR: UM
FT: We had the 3 bedrooms so.
PR: Were your Mum and Dad alive then when you came here?
FT: Oh yes, my Mum‟s been dead 1959 about 28…and 1948 when my father died. He worked 57 years for Mac‟s and got 10/- a week pension. When he was 65 they give him a job sewing the bags, the malting bags ***** wire and he scratched his finger when he‟d been there about 4 years ******* only a tiny scratch you couldn‟t see it and it bled a little bit and he went and asked the bloke for a little bit of stuff to put on it to stop it bleeding and they said on the Thursday when he went after his money they said that he was a risk and sacked him. Yeah.
PR: What age was he then?
FT: He was 75 then, he was 79 when he died and my mother was 8…..79, well on my mother‟s side you see it was typical because with all the children she lost you see if one was called Mary Ann the next one that came along she called Ann Mary you see she reversed the names. So when I went up to get a certificate there was a Mary Ann and an Ann Mary well the Mary Ann 79 well nobody knew the difference and an Ann Mary 84 so I took the 79 one because it made a difference in the insurance that‟s how that was worked out. If I had put the one at 85 I should have lost quite a bit on the insurance and I didn‟t know which was right, they were all the same they all had double names but they was all reversed. How the worked it out there was one boy in that family they used to call Bill well William and that‟s the only way they could work their ages out cause none of them knew their true ages.
PR: So what names have you had?
FT: Frederick William
PR: Frederick William yes some people call you Fred
FT: Nanna, Joe, Albert,
PR: the lady in the churchyard said "You going over to see Tommy?". Where did Nanna come from?
FT: Don‟t know
PR: No, that‟s the name I have always used.
FT: Yes they call me all names I answer to all of them.
PR: Good (laughter) well that is a load of stories
FT: You mentioned St Andrew Street. What were you on about St Andrew Street now I *********
PR: Yes
FT: I told you about Oakers buildings there. There was a woman called Mrs. Oakley, Oaker she used to live at the top of the yard as you go down and you had to pay your rent but I didn‟t know till last week when I saw that woman (Jean Riddell?) that she owned Poets‟ Corner. So Poets‟ Corner had two names that was Poet‟s corner and Oakers Buildings. Then there was old Mrs. Palmer lived in the sweet shop and she used to take the chickens to bed with her didn‟t she.
MO: Did she?
FT: Yes and that woman you was talking about…….
Pete: How do you know?
MO: Ha Ha ha
Pete: How do you know?
FT: Well that was common knowledge , she used to put notes in the window that she wanted a man didn‟t she and when the notes got too bad, they took her away didn‟t they.
PR: Yes
FT: then there was that woman you were on about somebody did cleaning up Ware Road wasn‟t she
PR: Um
FT: Rosie we used to call her Rose came from the yard, was a bit mental, but harmless enough, but she was a bit mental, she used to go everywhere cleaning, she didn‟t need it I don‟t think she always seemed to have plenty (of money)
PR: Did you know Rosie Dunnage
FT: They originate down The Green
PR: Ah did they yes
FT: There was two Dunnage's used to live down The Green, there was ******* Dunnage he used to live in Green Street and there was a Dunnage that used to live in Bircherley Street he was called William Dunnage he was the one who fell downstairs and broke his neck with a wall at the bottom. There was Rosie Dunnage, there was Rosie used to be in the Salvation Army wasn‟t there and her brother the little short one do you remember him?
PR: No I remember Rosie
FT: There was Rosie; there was the boy her brother and another girl
PR: We used to call her husband "Cuckoo‟.
FT: Cuckoo…………because she joined the Salvation Army in the end didn‟t she
PR: I think she did yes Rosie
General agreement
FT: Yes all down from The Green
PR: Well well anyway we have been all round the town can you think what we haven‟t said Pete?
Pete: No …laughs, he goes all round
End of side one
Side two
FT: ********** came when we used to go up Sele Farm there used to be a field right down the bottom didn‟t there.
MO: Yes
FT: That‟s where ** you know just before you get to the North Station
MO: Yes yes
FT: On the right hand side there used to be a big old field
MO: On.yes
FT: and then all the Circuses used to go in there and then when they built all them houses up there, Fordwich Rise and round there they shifted off down Hartham didn‟t they
MO: Oh I didn‟t know that
FT: Don‟t you remember
MO: I remember them on Hartham yes
FT: That‟s what happened there
MO: and the Whit Monday Fete they used to have
FT: There used to be Mr. Fitkin, can you remember Mr. Fitkin? He used to have all the old monkeys and things he used to live up that yard by Pavitts up St Andrew Street
MO: Pavitts Yard was it called Pavitts Yard?
FT: No a bit higher than Pavitts Yard near Scales the butchers
MO: Yes
FT: There was a little road round there a little bit further along you used to come to a cake shop, wasn‟t there
PR: Hattams yard
MO: I remember that yes
FT: a cake shop and a paper shop the other side wasn‟t there he used to live up there and he used to belong to the Zoo in London and he used to get tickets very often for children and he used to give them out didn‟t he, I know I went up once or twice. Then on Whit Monday they used to have an old … McMullens used to lend him one of his lorries and they used to put the wire all round it a cage all round it and they used to have monkeys in it and all different animals in it.
MO: They used to have a fair on Bull Plain didn‟t they?
FT: That was the Cherry Fair you are going back to the Taylor‟s that used to live on the hill now.
MO: Oh Bossy Taylor
FT: Er on the hill that time of day there was the old man and the old woman lived opposite the gates
MO: Was he called Bossy Taylor? Wasn‟t he a muffin man?
FT: That‟s right he used to come round with muffins didn‟t he
MO: Yes
FT: He used to have the Cherry Fair at Old Cross outside the Library. We used to have a fair, I forget what the one was called down Bull Plain, there used to be one down Bull Plain
MO: Yes
FT: He used to have two, where the bomb dropped there was three killed there in the 1914 war wasn‟t there.
MO: The club, the Hertford Club yes
FT: Because we lived in The Green at the time that dropped and that come over about half past nine and we didn‟t take notice. Well we watched it come over and we had just gone to bed ************** in the green overlooked the club and then it dropped and killed 3 there. But then we were talking about the Taylor‟s, there used to be the old man and the old lady used to live in the one opposite Warren gates you know with the little twitchell at the side of it. There was Rocky and his wife lived in the next one, that‟s two, there was Grace, Grace Taylor and another sister lived in the third one, there was Fred Taylor, a bachelor, lived in the fourth one, there was I forget the other one in the fifth one and then the other Charlie Taylor lived at the bottom beside The Reindeer. There were six Taylor‟s lived on the hill all the whole family.
Transcribers note: Walter (Bossy) and his wife Mary Ann lived at 63 and 65 Port Hill with the family in 1911 Fanny, Sidney, Emma, Grace, Mary, Thomas, Annie, Charles, Frederick as they married they moved to other houses, Charlie to 77 and later 47, Sidney (Rocky) to 69, Frederick (Elmo) to various numbers and Thomas to Byde Street. Thomas died in 1928. Mary and Annie married and moved away the other sisters all remained spinsters on the hill)
PR: I ……Boss Taylor use to take a
FT: Rocky Taylor
PR: a horse and
FT: and cart round Welwyn Garden City
PR: Yes past our house about 7 o‟clock in the morning
Transcribers note: This would have been Rocky or Elmo NOT Bossy as Bossy (Walter) died in 1927 long before Peter was born! Peter says it was his grandmamma who said "There goes Boss Taylor" as the horse clip clopped past 62 Hertingfordbury Road to Welwyn Garden City in the 1950’s but she must have just transferred the name!
FT: My brother (in law Dick Ketteridge) used to go Mondays, Rocky used to go Tuesday and Fred used to go Wednesdays
PR: What were they doing? Where were they going?
FT: They used to …….while they were building Welwyn Garden City. I used to go sometimes with Dick round there
PR: What were they selling things then?
FT: Greengrocers
PR: Greengrocery yes
FT: That‟s when Hatfield Hyde there was no houses there then. So what they used to do, what normally when we come back from Welwyn Garden City got all our money, there used to be, we used to have a sack of potatoes. They always kept that sack of potatoes, it wasn‟t to be sold and they used to shoot it out and put all the money underneath and then put the potatoes back again on top that‟s what they used to do.
MO: One of the Taylor‟s I thought it was Bossy Taylor was at my Great Aunt‟s Sunday school and they used to make toffee apples, and sweets and things.
FT: That‟s right that was the old man and the old….
MO: Used to keep them under the bed that was the old man called Bossy
FT: The old man he used to make black jack.
MO: That‟s right
FT: Humbugs
MO: Yes yes
FT: Sticky toffee, muffins and crumpets.
MO: That‟s right
FT: They used to make them.
Transcribers note: This was Walter "Bossy" and later Sidney "Rocky" continued with the sweets etc. after his father’s death so memories could be of either of them.
PR: So there were, you never had any „no go‟ areas where you didn‟t want to go? Up that road where so and so lived? You could go anywhere you liked?
FT: Go anywhere you like, yeah
PR: Few wild dogs?
FT: What?
PR: Dogs used to come out after paper boys and postmen but you didn‟t
FT: You don‟t see many dogs now
PR: No you don‟t do you
Ft: No
PR: You used
FT: I used to breed cocker spaniels.
PR: Oh
FT: Then when we moved up here, when we moved up here I had an old rabbit what used to run round the green, a big old white one I used to take him up *** we had a jackdaw, 3 dogs, 4 cats
PR: ********
FT: What we had had down The Green about 8 um 20 ferrets my grandfather used to teach me ferrets and um about 10, 12, about 14 chickens ********
PR: Everyone had chickens didn‟t they?
FT: Yes. Well when we first moved up here I fixed up for them in the garden, so next door could put her stuff out and chuck it over. We used to have… I had a chicken house in the middle what had been a shed thing and they used to put all their stuff over it so it cost me nothing to keep chickens
MO: What did you use the ferrets for?
FT: We used to go rabbiting
MO: Rabbiting
FT: Yes can‟t do that now can you?
PR: Can‟t do that no,
MO: There were a lot of rabbits on the Warren weren‟t there
FT: Yeah, but they weren‟t much cop, we used to go out in the fields,
MO: Ah
FT: There wasn‟t enough food for them down there and that was another thing about Bengeo. There used to be an old man called Gosselin. The road was named after him.
MO: Oh
FT: When we lived down The Green he used to come up, he used to live in the bottom house you know right down the bottom facing up New Road
Transcribers note: This is Bengeo Hall
MO: The big house
FT: yes right facing
MO: That‟s right Gosselin wasn‟t it
FT: Man named Gosselin. Old man Gosselin, and he used to have a little pony and trap didn‟t he and he used to come up New Road and he used to go through Hartham at the bottom there. He was a bit of an invalid.
PR: Ah
FT: If you waited for him, we used to wait for him if we got half a chance to catch him used to give you sweets and that when you met him. We used to stand for a little while where the bridge is and then he used to give you sweets. Every morning he used to go. When he died he left the Warren didn‟t he to the town. Cause Trowers took it over after him, then Savory‟s came down there, yeah
MO: Yes yes.
Clock chimes
FT: When Savory‟s come we used to have a tennis court on the corner of the rectory field but he soon got rid of that. He put his bungalow, because there used to be an orchard there run right along the bottom of the field.
MO: Um
FT: But he soon took it away and put the bungalow there now
PR: Didn‟t you feel a bit, sort of, out of things like City Street right in the middle of the town. This is another world up here isn‟t it.
FT: No cause I used to go back down town more
PR: Go backwards and forwards
FT: Yeah because you could always get a bus back up at half past 11, the 6 o‟clock one, yes
PR: So you were always on the move.
FT: You know you kept in touch. There are not many of the old Green people left now you know.
PR: No
FT: There‟s one lives down Mead Lane, Kate Barbrook
PR: Yes
MO: Oh Barbrook yes
FT: Was one that lived on the Green she who would be 87 or 89 I suppose
PR: Still driving her Morris Minor.
FT: Is she?
PR: Yes well she has had her eyes done
FT: she belonged to the Salvation Army didn‟t she *****
PR: Yes well she walked down
FT: She used to be the Army woman when we lived down the Green
PR: Yes
FT: all her life
PR: Yes
FT: Dear old Kate I was only speaking to her last Tuesday
PR: Ah had she had her cataracts done? She was going to have
FT: *********
PR: She was going to have
FT: Cause ****** I watch for what time the bus is coming on that seat in Waitrose cause I don‟t like the waiting room and then I can see the clock and then she had done her shopping and then she came and sat and had a little natter you know
PR: Yes yes she has finished with the Army. That‟s ever so sad.
FT: She could sing well couldn‟t she? She‟s got a lovely voice
PR: Yes Yes
FT: She sang at the um was it the Rotary Club?
PR: Might have been yes
FT: I think she sung there didn‟t she
PR: Yes, but there aren‟t very many, Mrs. Henry of course still alive
FT: Yes she is still alive. There‟s Mrs. Cook down Palmer Road. You remember the Cook‟s? Her husband used to have a, Bob Cook used to have a stall outside of Boot‟s the corner Boot‟s shop.
Transcriber’s note: When Bob Cook was alive they lived in Molewood so I am not sure if this is the correct Mrs. Cook living in Bengeo?
MO: Yes
FT: and then he had a shop in the arcade
MO: Yes
FT: and then he went up St Andrew Street
MO: Yes
FT: Opposite….
MO: I think he went to Rose‟s corner for a bit. Went to Rose‟s. My mother let it to him for a bit and his um son died recently didn‟t he, Cook
PR: Greengrocers
MO: Greengrocers and then the garden centre at Bayfordbury
PR: Yes
FT: ***** garden ********* cause
MO: yes yes
FT: The one that belonged to the Garden Centre died didn‟t he about a fortnight ago.
MO: Yes, same family isn‟t it.
FT: Yes
PR: I didn‟t know that
FT: She has got one more boy who is out in Canada
MO: Oh Yes
FT: Been out in Canada oh for years, oh he comes home about twice a year and has a look round you know sort of thing
PR: I thought you were going to say the rag and bone man, Cookie do you remember?
FT: Oh that was the rag and bone man. He lived up the gaol,
PR: Yes
FT: oh he wasn‟t much of a rag and bone man not Cookie he was only a part time one, wasn‟t he. Archer was the rag and bone man .....he used to have a big yard down the side of ..... in Railway Street you know where Parkins the butcher is
MO: Oh yes, Oh did he?
FT: Yes Archer‟s yard was behind there wasn‟t it? Where he used to sell his stuff. His brother used to have that bungalow up Pegs Lane, big old man wasn‟t he, near the Grammar School and his other brother had Rose Cottage in Pegs Lane
MO: Queens Road……….Queens Road I think, yes I remember them.
FT: There was one in Rose Cottage, the one in Rose Cottage when they forced him out when they built the County Hall, moved down Villiers Street
MO: Oh really
FT: Then there was the big one the other Charlie the one that used to be in the bungalow. Remember?
MO: Yes
PR: Now we have got to fill in a form to say that you are happy that everything that you have said is heard by the people in the Museum. Mary will slide down and…….because this tape will go into the Hertford Museum
FT: Yes
PR: and then all your friends can go and ask to plug in and put on the headphones and
FT: *******
PR: To hear your stories and one day after………..you know it takes quite a long time someone will type out what we have said (17 years!)
FT: Ah ha
PR: and so you can actually read through all the old names and…….that you have come up with so you will be in the Museum forever
FT: Oh that‟s nice ……their always calling me and old ******** Laughs
PR: If Mary writes down the …if you slide down Mary you will be able to …
FT: Is there anything else you want to know before you go?
PR: Well I mean anything you………
FT: No
PR: Well we have done ever so well haven‟t we?
Pete: I will be around a lot if he thinks of something else
MO: We can come back
PR: There is always something you think of when we have gone yes.
MO: We can come back
PR: Yes yes
MO: So
PR: Mary will fill in then that‟s asks date of birth and that sort of thing
MO: A few questions about you full name
PR: Frederick William Thomas
(Conversation between Peter and Pete in background football?)
MO: Frederick William Thomas
FT: That‟s right
MO: what‟s the address? 27?
FT: 27 New Road Bengeo
MO: Are you on the phone?
FT: Yes 551426
MO: 551426 now I am going to ask you your date of birth
FT: 1909
MO: Cor I am not quite as far back
FT: 24th December 19
MO: 24th December!
FT: When I was born my mother said they were playing; the Salvation Army was playing Noel outside the warren gates
MO: ha ha ha Oh lovely so the place of birth is um
FT: Port Hill 87
MO: um
Pete: It‟s not there any more
MO: No…… now then, place you lived as a child is Bircherley, Port Hill and then Bircherley
PR: City Street
MO: City Street um I will put City Street, City Street Bircherley Green wasn‟t it
FT: Yes
Pete: I wonder where they got that name from.
MO: Bircherley or City
Pete: City
MO: I don‟t know
PR: There was a pub called the City Arms
MO: Oh was there?
Pete: oh yes
MO: and you went to school at um All Saints Infants….All saints
FT: Infants then up to Port vale what‟s the name of it now Mill………
MO: Well its Millmead now
FT: Yes
MO: it was Port Vale wasn‟t it?
FT: yes
MO: That was boys wasn‟t it
FT: they didn‟t have girls mixed with boys in them days did they?
MO: um………and your occupation, well you were, you told us about a lot
FT: Maltster
MO: Were you Malt …..How do you spell it?
A lot of conversation on how to spell Maltster!
FT: the stuff they put in the beer
A lot more of conversation on how to spell Maltster!
MO: I am going to have to do that again I am afraid…..M A L T S T E R
PR: where were you working when you were actually working with the malt?
FT: down Hartham Lane
MO: was that MacMullen‟s then?
FT: No it was Grippers had it
PR: Grippers and Wightman yes
FT: They had 5 maltings there, there was no 7, no 8, no 7 No 6 and no 10 and they had a big house as well beside the maltings um Grippers do you remember? And that there house they never took a thing out of it and it stood empty there was the crockery in there, the bedclothes, everything and we could get in their garden. Then a train knocked, where they used to shunt trains up there on the corner part of the railway they knocked part a of the wall down and McMullen started to putting crates in the garden and now he has got it all hasn‟t he.
PR: Yes yes
FT: and when he pulled the house
Pete: Nothing more than squatters you know
Laughs
FT: and when they pulled the house down he left a part of the house you know where you go down towards, where you go down by the Gospel Hall you know down towards Hartham where the he washes his barrels out there was a little bit of an archway left there that was part of the house so that any descendants of Grippers wanted to come along he got to claim that he pulled the house down for danger but he claimed the ground. You could keep a little…..there was some law about it that he kept his grey? crates on there and then for a number of years he built that factory. His bottling place down there and then of course Ilott‟s moved out haven‟t they, the factory, they used to have a mill down there. There was a pub down there; Gray‟s used to be on the corner next to the Unicorn
PR: Yes he worked in the seed shop didn‟t he Grey worked in MacMullen‟s seed shop
FT: That‟s right
PR: on Old Cross
FT: um…. There used to be Ilott‟s place where they used to put the corn, where he used to store all his corn and stuff down there didn‟t he.
PR: yes
FT: then there was the old maltings they have all gone now
PR: They will have the Unicorn down soon I think
FT: They have had it down
Pete: It‟s still there
PR: No The Unicorn, the building there it‟s just boarded up
Transcribers note: Demolished eventually at the end of 2011 for Sainsbury’s to build.
FT: I thought it was
Pete: *****
FT: I saw it in the Mercury
PR: They have applied; they asked permission to pull it down
FT: Yeah
PR: But they haven‟t got it yet
FT: Oh
PR: They haven‟t got permission yet but they will
FT: ******* everything
PR: yes
FT: excuse me, what else
MO: Your marital status is single isn‟t it?
FT: Yes
MO: Never got married, lucky man.
FT: I know that I ******* Peter
Laughs
MO: and the last question is religion… C of E?
FT: Church of England………all my people, I don‟t know how that come about. All my mother‟s people was Catholics
MO: Were they?
FT: yes
MO: what was your mother‟s name?
FT: Mumford
MO: Mumford‟s
FT: Yes all her sisters, all the children were Catholics
MO: so there would be some buried down there at the Catholic Church would there?
FT: Up St Andrew Street
MO: up the cemetery (North Road)
FT: Mrs. Hart from The Green there was Trundall that used to live in Cromwell Road, Mrs. Mead was Catholic, Mrs. Newman was Catholic they were all Catholic.
MO: Did they come from Ireland?
FT: No I think really why they all turned Catholic was something to do with the younger days they used to give them more things than the Church of England better education and all and they used to get, the old Nun‟s used to give them clothes and things and they weren‟t Catholic.
MO: Why
FT: That was the general idea, that‟s why you get so many Catholics in Eng……….in Hertford when the children was younger when my mother and father were younger and the aunts….my mother‟s sister that we used to live down the green with they used to get a lot of stuff off the (Catholic) church. They used to help them out but you didn‟t get nothing off the Church of England
MO: Oh that‟s interesting because the Catholic Church was built in um 1858 or so um there had been……..and the Gosselin family was Catholics
Pete: Catholic Church?
MO: the church down St John‟s Road (Street)
FT: That‟s a lovely little church that is
MO: Yes
FT: I was in there last week there was a funeral
MO: Were you Oh whose funeral was that then?
FT: Flowers, he was in the police force, he was in the police force Flowers
MO: Flowers yes
FT: He was superintendent in the police force he‟s got a girl what‟s had something wrong with her body they only give her five months when she was, when they, when she was born she died about a fortnight, three weeks ago she was 32 and of course yes I went to the Catholic………. I am real content in the Catholic Church than I am in the Church of England, I don‟t know what……………
MO: So am I because I am a Catholic
FT: you are a Catholic?
MO: yes
FT: It‟s more, I don‟t know what it is, it‟s more interesting, you go in a Church of England and you get the same old boring Hymns, don‟t you and they are all so close knitted you don‟t get friends in the Church of England
PR: um
FT: yet you go in the Catholic Church and you can feel the friendliness in it can‟t you. I am quite happy with Cath……….when we used to go on holiday with ****** and that I used to hope for a Catholic church
MO: Did you, do you know Father Liddle?
FT: Pardon
MO: Do you know father Liddle?
FT: I used to know all the Fathers that were there. I don‟t know, I didn‟t think much of this one he was very very quiet the one that was there last week
MO: I don‟t think that was Father Liddle because he is not quiet
FT: he seemed very quiet he did.
MO: Did he? Well perhaps it was because it was a funeral
FT: and er Father Thornton he used to be there
MO: Yes
FT: and that
MO: Father Rochford
FT: That‟s right and then there was that oh what was the name? ******* he was a cardinal wasn‟t he the last one
MO: Cardinal Vaughan
FT: That‟s it
MO: Well he, he, Cardinal Vaughn actually he used to be out at
FT: St. Edmunds College……..
MO: That‟s right St Edmunds College ………..and he……
FT: Have you ever been in St Edmunds College
Mo: Yes
FT: When the war broke out we shifted all the stuff out of the chapel there, out the chapel, nasty sort of job we had to dig these damn great holes about 12 foot deep well deeper that, we lined it with netting wire with straw behind it there was netting wire underneath it with straw on top and then there was a big…….have you been in the college?
MO: Um
FT: There is a big golden cross isn‟t there
MO: yes
FT: That went down there then loads of straw on top of that wetted and tread it down and then we put all the Altar stuff down there you know. With the old verger ( not down the hole I hope!)
MO: um
FT: I worked with the verger because he was the only one allowed to touch the things off the Altar, he used to put them in a special box say his prayers over it you know his blessings over it and we put it in the ground.
PR: What a life!
Pete and PR say something in the background and laugh
FT: I worked with old ******** that big old verger for about 6 months I think. The only snag was we putting in water sprinklers and all the corridors had the same doors so if you didn‟t leave your door open you didn‟t know which door you came out.
PR: Ha ha
FT: There was an old Cockney bloke I used to work with an all he said "I carry a bit of chalk" he said "wherever I go I put a cross" he said "that way I get the work done" Yes that was the only way you could find where you were going you see to sleep because after 18 hours they get an offer don‟t they?
MO: yes yes
PR: Just showing Mary the rent card the last one from City Street and the first one up here and it‟s, we both say because we have to go in a jiff that its Mrs. Thomas of 15 City Street. The agent was George Chapman, 8 East Street, Ware, did he own the property or was he
FT: He owned
PR: Yes he came round and then that‟s the last of the City Street books and the first one here has still got the old address 16a City Street on the front, Borough of Hertford 1930 tenants‟ rent card and who‟s the housing manager? Maisie Ditton‟s dad GJH George John Henry Ditton housing manager on the front of the book, Hertford Castle he had the electrical shop in St. Andrew Street,
FT: That‟s right
PR: afterwards but he was housing manager when you first came here, and Maisie Ditton has done a lot of talking, his daughter, for the Museum. So that‟s a nice little extra link up. Anyway you had better fill the form in.
MO: Well the only other question was your parents what did they do? What was their occupation?
FT: Well me father was a maltster
MO: Yes
FT: He done 50 years as a maltster. ********** and do you know that was another thing……….how old was I when I started being a maltster about 17 I think, 16
MO: UM
FT: when we emptied our cisterns you know um where the barley used to some out we used to have the „spirit bloke‟ come down and he handed out ** 35 cwt. of wheat, we used to level it off and he used we had to make sure it was the wines and spirit people because if you‟d got over that, you used to get fined and if you had got under it you used to get in trouble! So what they had to do the wines and spirits used to have to come down and see you know what went in the system and he used to level it off to make sure you didn‟t put in no more than what he saw
PR: Yes
FT: **********to him
PR: and that only really leaves to ask those questions and then sign the bottom.
MO: Well can you ask him Peter I am not really quite sure…………
PR: well it says
FT: *****
PR: have you got any bans on what we can use it for in the future the public can listen or read our thing for research, for education, broadcasting, I don‟t think we are going to go on the radio but you never know 60 years‟ time they might want to um a source of information that could be published. You haven‟t said anything horrible about anybody have you?
MO: No
PR: Or you know put on display in the museum
FT: ** and I sign the bottom
PR: You sign the bottom
FT: Thank you
PR: we have done 60 odd
FT: Let me know when it is done and I can go and listen to it
PR: Yes
FT: laughs
MO: That‟s right we will fix it
FT: Oh I have put the date in the wrong place
PR: It doesn‟t matter there will do it‟s just a mark
Pete: If you don‟t get these tales you lose them forever don‟t you
PR: Yes that‟s right …..old Cliff North we got Cliff of course
FT: Cliff he used to come from Railway Street an old gran bought him up you know opposite where there used to be the Old Lion‟s Head don‟t you. There was 2 cottages there or 3 Cottages and there was a little shop there Donoghues used to live in one, big woman wasn‟t she, her husband took the shop in Railway Street then he went to the fish shop didn‟t he. There was Donoghue‟s. Old Cliff, I always called him mead because his granny was named Mead and she was brought him up took the name and all Cliff North there was Rayment‟s were next door and then there was Sweeney‟s you know John Sweeney that had the restaurant don‟t you
PR: Yes Hornsmill now
FT: and then there was er………….*** 1994
MO: Good
PR: That Mead wasn‟t anything to do with Maudie Mead from the gaol was it used to go round with the fire wood
FT: *************** had something to do with reading the meters in the family
PR: Oh
FT: Cliff Mead probably might know. I mean I was brought up with Cliff Mead. He is a little bit younger than me
PR: Yes he is he is 82
FT: *old Granny bought him there and she bought him up yes and then we used to have a I don‟t know if you can remember him Deller he used to be market beadle
PR: Yes…………..yes um
MO: Did he have a moustache?
FT: Deller his name was, he used to live in that first one ..then there was old Bob, oh what was his name used to work in the post office Bob, used to be bad on his legs used to live up Hornsmill
PR: No I am thinking of…….
Pete: Bob Baker
FT: Bob Baker there was old Nat Baker was at the far end of South Street and used to mend watches and clocks and that do you remember? You should remember that
MO: I don‟t know
FT: Shepherds used to be on the corner of South Street and then Bob Baker used to live in the next one then there was Deller then *********Charville‟s lived in the other end
MO: Oh I don‟t remember
PR: Yes yes.
FT: You are going to get wet Peter
PR: We know
MO: I have got an umbrella
Pete: That won‟t save you that will take you sideways
PR: Serious stuff
MO: shall we turn this off
FT: Anyway nice to meet you
MO: Nice to meet you too because we did know quite a lot of people
PR: Tomorrow afternoon is
MO: What‟s tomorrow afternoon?
PR Tomorrow afternoon is the Mayor‟s Party....I‟ve got to look up some slides you know
FT: Shall I take this off?
PR: Yes
MO: My goodness
END OF RECORDING